How long will the NBA Lockout last?
by Mike from Illinois on Jul 1, 2011 3:47 AM EDT
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PrintThe current CBA has expired with no new agreement being reached, so the NBA Lockout is on.
I'm curious to see how long Orlando Pinstriped Post members feel the lockout will last.
Are you optimistic that a quick agreement can be reached, or do you think that this will be long, protracted, and drawn out until an agreement is reached.
I have listed four choices below, and feel free to include any comments. Thanks!
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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I clicked on between November 1st - December 31st
From everything that I’ve heard so far, the owners and players are not even close to reaching a new agreement, and I am not optimistic that the NBA season will start on time. I wouldn’t be surprised if a number of regular season games are cancelled.
I hope that won’t happen, and that the owners and players will come to their senses and get this thing hammered out before too long so that training camps and the regular season can open on time.
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago White Sox... 2005 World Series Champions
Orlando Magic... 1995 and 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Jul 1, 2011 3:56 AM EDT reply actions
Too much to get figured out
Both sides too stubborn to make any concessions until they start losing actual money instead of hypothetical money. And much, much more pressure given the NBA is losing money…
I picked the longest option.
I don’t think they will come to an agreement until both sides are seriously hemorraging money, and that may take a little while for most.
I don't get the whole 'pop-tart cats pooping rainbows thing,' but then, I'm old. So, there it is.
I agree that really losing money will get things going but I think they'll start beeing serious
sooner than that. NBA isn’t doing that bad, they’d be really crazy to let things get out of hand.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
effin David Stern.
Yeah.. this is just the perfect way to back up an amazing season.
Yeah.. this is just the perfect way to back up an amazing season.I’m with the others here, from what I’ve read, they weren’t even CLOSE to resolving things.
Before September 1st
if they are smart. Before the NFL if they want to gain fans from the NFL. Lockouts should never last long, the players need to recognize a hard cap ultimately is in their benefit to create equality, which in turn increases revenue because fan interest is increased.
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
a hard cap does not help players
It limits how much they can make. Sorry but you are wrong here in saying a hard cap benefits players.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I contest, that as the league revenue increases as fan support increases
the hard cap thershold would increase as well, which in turn benefits all players not just the one’s at the top. That’s the only reason I believe a hard cap is beneficial to the players.
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
also equality in sports will never happen.
And don’t say the NFL. Same teams win every single year practically. No matter what some teams will always have advantages over other teams.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Nobody wants perfect equality
Just a bit more equality.
Since the NHL lockout, 6 teams have won the Stanley Cup in six seasons. Only two teams have made the Finals twice. The NBA wants a piece of that parity. And, amusingly, since the lockout, the NHL salary cap has grown to the point where it’s bigger than the NBAs’.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 5, 2011 7:04 AM EDT up reply actions
The NBA players still have the highest per-player salary.
Thanks to smaller teams, of course.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
As a fan of the Magic and seeing how they spend
I am not a fan of equality. If you go by that, than it will be even harder for small market teams. All the really good players will still want to be in the same markets, they will just take a pay cut. I like the MLB model. Small market teams pocket almost $30 million a year from Tax payments and make a profit before ticket even go on sale. This would allow teams who want to spend, spend and teams who want to make money, make money.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
It might not be good for Orlando
But the NBA is considering the needs of 30 owners, not 1.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 6, 2011 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Lakers, Heat, Dallas, Houston, New York, Jersey/Brooklyn, Portland, Miami
San Antonio, Toronto to a degree, and OKC I am sure would love to keep their nucleus together no matter the cost. 12 just off the top of my head who seem to be fully invested in their teams. The Bulls as well. Atlanta could join if they get new owners.This is the first problem of the lockout. Before the owners deal with the players they have to deal with the spenders and pretenders amongst themselves.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Nail on the head
This is the first problem of the lockout. Before the owners deal with the players they have to deal with the spenders and pretenders amongst themselves.
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
I tend to believe that profit sharing is a bad idea except when sharing parties have a share in generating profits. That is like saying thriving businesses have to share their profits with failing businesses.
That makes your view of owners have to deal “with the spenders and pretenders amongst themselves” moot. look, it has been said in many ways but it is as simple as that, in a losing business the first line of activity is cutting costs, and players salary is by far the largest fixed cost. Now in any negotiation each side would have a starting point which serves their relative side best, and then as the negotiation progresses, they come closer to each other until they agree on a happy medium. But make no mistake that owners would not come to terms until they receive a satisfactory return on their investment (ROI). This bashing of owners as greedy bastards is foolish since players would not have had a chance to make the money they are making had it not been for owners willing to invest. Additionally, if investors do not find their investments attractive – compared to other lines of business – they would not invest in professional basketball. That in long term would diminish the sport, hence diminishing the players revenue.
The owners are greedy.
Even with what I would like, the MLB model, the owners pocket the money they get from the luxury paying teams. Also there is debate as to whether the owners are even losing money. Teams that go over the cap now, do not really want a lockout. It has been reported that Jerry Buss is not exactly thrilled with the lockout. Like I said, spenders and pretenders. Non desirable markets, Sacramento, Charlotte, Milwaukee, Indy, Minnesota, etc. are asking for a fair chance. Do you really think changing the rules the way they are now would benefit all those teams I just mentioned in the above post(Miami, Lakers, Magic, Knicks, etc)?
As for your other point the owners would not have anything to invest if there were no players. How many fans in Phoenix show up if there is not Steve Nash? In the NBA the players matter than any other sport. One player means too much to a franchise. So in this lockout, although I initialed sided with the owners, new facts about whether they lost money and other reasons, I have sided with players. The owners ARE greedy, as are the players the owners are just more greedy. There are better ways to make the NBA “profitable”(if it isn’t already) before slashing players salaries as drastic as they want.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Your plain of thought is always so fragmented which makes it difficult to engage in any meaningful discussion with you.
1 – Money never loses. If owners do not find the investment in pro basketball attractive, they will invest somewhere else … guess who loses at the end or gets his income diminished?
2 – The negotiation is at preliminary stages, and not all the facts are out yet while both sides are at their extreme postures. Wait until the dust settles before passing judgments since both sides would change their positions constantly until they find that elusive happy medium.
3 – Once again, profit sharing is a stupid idea. Why should a successful team – whether due to market size or intelligent planning and management – share its profit with a losing team if the latter had no share in generating the profit to start with? We live in a market economy, and the market should determine the winners and losers.
Why should the players have their salaries cut?
We pay to see them not the owners. To me cutting their salaries as drastic as they want is stupid. I root for the Yankees, and the MLB model affects them more than anything. But their owners are willing to do whatever it takes to win a title. Teams like the Marlins and Pirates, cry that they can not compete but every team makes money because of how much they get from teams paying luxury taxes. Some owners, like Sterling from the Clippers, only care about making money and do not really care about winning. So why should teams willing to spend money have to suffer a hard cap as to what they want to spend because of those owners who really do not want to spend in the first place? Let me retract something, not all the owners are greedy. The non desirable market owners are the ones really upsetting me. Like I said this lockout hurts those teams, as the phrase goes, “are in it to win it”. Profit sharing is not stupid. The teams who want to win in their sport get to win, and those who just want to run a business and make money get to do that.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Could you please pay deeper attention to some of the issues conveyed?
In that spirit “We pay to see them not the owners” does not make sense … if nobody invests the required capital, players cannot play and we cannot see them … it’s that simple.
Also, as I have asked for, please be patient … the negotiating parties are at their extreme opposites, not due to bad faith, but rather because that’s how negotiations are typically handled, as I have explained before. The underlying basics are the same as any other bargaining situation except that it is more complicated in CBA negotiations.
by Matt1325 on Jul 7, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You seem very much to want to paint a rather gray situation in rather black and white terms:
I don't get the whole 'pop-tart cats pooping rainbows thing,' but then, I'm old. So, there it is.
Of course Buss isn't thrilled
His highly profitable “win now” team might lose a chance to make money and win.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 7, 2011 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I am sure the Magic owners are not thrilled about this lockout either.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
The difference is that the NBA is a essentially a monopoly
If it were a free market for teams, suggesting revenue sharing would be moronic. Each team needs the other teams to generate their revenue – a league with the Lakers, Bulls, Celtics and Knicks and nobody else would be about as interesting as MLS.
Because all 30 teams have a part in making the league as a whole work, the argument is that all 30 teams deserve a share of the spoils of the league working.
Now, if the Bobcats could just jump ship to New York and compete directly against the Knicks, nobody would be complaining about revenue sharing and about 6 cities in the country would have NBA teams.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 7, 2011 5:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I acknowledged that notion of the teams needing each other to generate revenues but only "when sharing parties have a share in generating profits".
That would be mainly when two – or more teams (i.e., All Star events) – play each other. But, as I understand – and I think you have pointed it out, as well – the gap is too wide to be covered by revenue sharing.
Can you provide a working definition and examples of....
“when sharing parties have a share in generating profits”.
I’m unclear how your qualifying phrase doesn’t simply reiterate your first assertion.
"...sometimes your eyes lie to you..." ~SVG | I'm on Twitter
by magicfaninTN on Jul 7, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
In simple words, I am saying if failing teams want to have a share of the profits made by thriving teams, they have to prove that they have contributed to generating it, in the first place
The simplest example would be when two teams play each other they could have a claim on sharing the ticket sales, TV royalties … etc.
Sharing ticket and TV royalities
would be a good way to value each team in a revenue sharing market. Of course in a long view this would end up benefitting Eastern conference teams more, as they play NY, Boston, Chicago, Miami, and the diehard fan bases of Indiana, Detroit, and Philadelphia more frequently. But never the less it would fit that every team is expected to provide a winning or exciting brand of basketball, in order to reap greater revenue.
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
But see it would not work like that.
Dallas, Houston, Orlando, Miami, and other teams have shown their willingness to spend. Even Memphis and OKC would probably spend to keep their teams as well. Portland spends heavy. Do not assume that only those 4 cities would be good. Remember the Texas and Florida teams have no state tax and nice relatively warmer weather during the winter, with the NBA being a warm sport.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
No state income tax does not equal no state business taxes.
"...sometimes your eyes lie to you..." ~SVG | I'm on Twitter
by magicfaninTN on Jul 7, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not about spending
It’s about revenue.
Any business in the world looks at fat profits made by a competitor and thinks “how can I get a piece of that?” That’s how the free market works – excess profits are eliminated by competitors entering the same market to take the profit for themselves.
Unless the Orlando market suddenly starts generating billion dollar 20 year TV deals, it doesn’t make any business sense to be there – unless you can’t simply enter a more lucrative market. Which you can’t in the NBA…which is why revenue sharing makes sense.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 7, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't want to be the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NBA
I don’t want any team in the NBA to be like that
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
The Pittsuburgh Pirates make money every year
And there already is a Pirates in the NBA. Called the LA Clippers. Golden State Warriors.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
both of those teams make the playoffs more recently than the Pirates
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
More spots in the NBA vs. MLB.
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
Yeah But the pirates wouldn't be in Playoffs even with 6 teams from each league in
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
I voted between Sept 1st and Oct 31st
The difference between this lockout and the NFL’s is that both sides legitimately know things are wrong, and they need to get fixed. In the NFL, the owners are just greedy as hell, and it’ll take something crazy to knock them off that.
I think the real issue will be for the owners to figure out how much compromising they want to do within their own ranks. The Milwaukees and Indianas of the league have to be on the same page with the LA’s and Bostons.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
by slickw143 on Jul 1, 2011 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Also, I'm being very optimistic.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Agreed slick.
Well, I agree that the owners & players in the NBA know there are issue’s. The NFL’s lockout is really a joke.
As far as owners figuring out their own issue’s, good luck. They want to blame the players first and see how far that takes them. They don’t want to share revenue if they can just steal the players share first.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I said between November 1st to December 31st.
Most of what I’ve read says the same thing that Mike’s read. Owners are losing insane amounts of money, players don’t seem to budge, this will probably take a while to resolve. Hopefully, this doesn’t cut too much into the season.
Just out of curiosity, if the lockout causes next season to be canceled, will Dwight Howard still become a FA in 2012?
But what about the 2011 FA's?
Will they just be clustered with the 2012 FA’s and there would just be an insane amount of player movement?
Here's Wilbon's take on the lockout.
It is not positive:
Could the two sides be moving forward with less energy? It’s eerily reminiscent of 13 years ago when the union and management went more than 40 days without any kind of bargaining session, which led Barkley to savage both sides for dragging their feet. And officials from both ends of this dispute, 13 years later, characterize the two sides as being further apart now than they were then.
(Emphasis added by me.)
I don't get the whole 'pop-tart cats pooping rainbows thing,' but then, I'm old. So, there it is.
True. But both sides have agreed to meet within two weeks. If they don’t meet bad news. If they do slightly good news. While they may be far apart, both sides want to capitalize on last seasons success.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
They've pretty much been "meeting" for two years. I do not share your optimism.
I don't get the whole 'pop-tart cats pooping rainbows thing,' but then, I'm old. So, there it is.
This thing is going to take a long time
I wouldn’t be surprised if Orlando loses it’s chance to host the all-star game. The timing for the CBA to expire is horrible for the city of Orlando and the Magic franchise.
Orlando Magic. Oregon Ducks. Seattle Mariners. Jacksonville Jaguars.
I am assuming that if
the AS game is missed, Orlando will get to host next yr, not just be booted from the rotation.
You can't reason with stupid.
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
It won't be next year
The planning for big events like that occurs years in advance.
But Orlando will probably get to host the next unallocated AS game if they lose the one in 2012 to the lockout.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 6, 2011 5:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Shortly after this topic was discussed by us, I read:
This from Zach McCann on the Sentinel http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/2011/07/if-orlandos-2012-all-star-game-is-nixed-then-what.html
You can't reason with stupid.
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
I don't see good logic in that write-up.
If a site is not decided for 2013, assuming the league cannot do any official business – including announcing a site for that year – during the lockout, why couldn’t they simply announce Orlando for 2013, when they come out of the lockout, if it was too late to have it for 2012?
I'm going to be an optimist...
..and say in September sometime. That’s what I hope, and, right now, there isn’t any real urgency on either side to get a deal done. Which is a problem naturally, but whatever.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
So basically on December 21st
we won’t have anything to distract us from the end of the world ???
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
On the bright side, until the lockout ends trade posts have been made even more pointless!!!
I don't get the whole 'pop-tart cats pooping rainbows thing,' but then, I'm old. So, there it is.
by Redfield on Jul 7, 2011 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
YAY!!!!!
Dwight Howard - "My Gosh, what is that smell?"
Otis Smith - "That's the smell of success my man."
Dwight Howard - "No, it smells like a used Arenas... filled with... Turkoglu..."
Otis Smith - "You know, success smells like that to some people." (turns and walks toward a crowd of fans)
Fan#1 - (Disgusted) "What is that? Smells like a turd covered in burnt hair..."
Otis Smith - (Tries to act casual and walk away) "Woah, what's that smell?"
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