MVP...really???
by Mateo9399 on May 25, 2011 1:01 PM EDT
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So with the Bulls on the verge of being eliminated from the playoffs, let us look at that whole MVP little thingy.
Derrick Rose won by a lot. Dwight was second, and LeBron was left of 9 ballots. Ric Bucher has gone on record saying Derrick Rose is the best player in the league right now? Really? Really?? Are you watching the games. I said it at the beginning of the season. The middle of the season. And a week ago. Was never impressed with the Bulls. At all. Ever. Never will be either. I was never really impressed with Rose either. He is fast. He is amazing when it comes to finishing at the rim. What else does he do?? ...crickets.....more crickets......even more crickets.... He does nothing else.
In my original MVP Post I had Dwight/LeBron tied and gave the edge to Dwight since LeBron has two superstars to play with while Dwight did not. I redid it and still barely had Rose join the top 5. Rose dunks really amazing. Outside that, what else? Lebron, Dwight, and Paul are all the best players at their position because they play both sides of the court. Offense and Defense. Rose is not even in the top 2 for PG discussion. Once again, the media fell into hype. Because of them I hate Derrick Rose. He did not earn nor deserve the MVP. Because he is humble? Garbage. Dwight Howard had the 3rd best defense, while the team employed Gilbert Arenas, JJ Redick, and Ryan Anderson on the court at the same time. LeBron James is in the top 5 wings in terms of defense and is far and away the best SF in the NBA. Chris Paul would make this Bulls team better with his ability to get everyone involved. So would Deron Williams. But no, Derrick Rose is the anti LeBron, the home town kid who won't leave.
I find it funny that all of the sudden the Bulls do not have the talent to win a title? All season we have been led to believe they do. Boozer was a beast. Deng the most "underrated" player in the NBA. Noah was this and that. The Bulls bench was "unbelievable" and that their bench would crush the Heat. Yet here we stand with the Bulls probably losing in 6(I will give them Game 5 in Chicago). Yes they have been hard fought games. Either team could have won. Yet the MVP, the best closer all of the sudden, the best player in the NBA according to some, has now come up short in three straight 4th quarters. Wasn't it LeChoke five weeks ago?? This is why you do not put personal bias ahead of judgement. Hate LeBron for being egotistic. Hate him for setting the bluprint for all future stars to try and form their own teams. But do not tell lies about his game. This is not a Miami defend piece. This is a media is dumber than you think piece, and fans may be smarter than you think piece. The Bulls have a terrible offense. Derrick Rose is terrible offensively if you really think about it. Before I thought Rose had better game management than Westbrook, not really. They both stink. I don't trust either with a game winning shot. Basically watch the games. Derrick Rose failed the stats test. Now he is finally failing the eyeball test. Chicago homers go back to sleep. LeBron haters go back to your crib. Derrick Rose worshippers put your Derrick Rose Scriptures away. Finally, big boy basketball has returned.
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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In response to your title:
really.
"Basketball is a team game. But that doesn't mean all five players should have the same amount of shots." - Dean Smith
Couldn't agree more.
This is why I hate the media so much. They fall in love with a player and hype him up as “the best player in the game.” If he falters, then it’s the team’s fault even though the same media earlier that season said that the player’s cast was great. Derrick Rose does seem like a likable person but the media’s constant love for him makes me hate him as a player. Even though he is a very good player and is very young, he still has a lot of flaws in his game and he wouldn’t sniff the top 5 if someone objectively ranked the players. Now down 3-1, it’s time for the MVP to prove his worth and bring the Bulls back from a big deficit against a very formidable opponent.
C'mon man, it's the LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This!!!
Lebron totally owned Rose yesterday. Meanwhile Rose missed a key FT with the game on the line, missed shots and had several TO down the stretch. He had like 5 chances to win the game and missed/lost the ball, he took two horrible shot to end regulation. Last play I told my GF "The ball goes to #1, he will dribble, dribble and just before the clock runs out will attemp and awkward long shot that will end as an airball. Horrible, horrible execution. (rec’d)
Yeah, I've been saying this to people so much since the end of the season.
I like Derrick Rose, and he’s incredibly fun to watch most of the time. But he’s become the most overrated player in the NBA, honestly. They kept just calling him “The MVP”, even though LeBron is in the same game. Reggie called him “The best transition player in the NBA”… again, even though LeBron is in the same game. LeBron’s still the best offensive player in the NBA (not the best scorer, but the best offensive player), and he’s probably a top 5 defensive player in the NBA too. Dude is able to guard positions 1 through 4 and can single-handedly shut down transition plays sometimes. He’s perhaps the best “free safety” in the NBA.
I dislike James personally, but he’s an underrated basketball player, while the Rose slurping reached ridiculous levels. At least when LeBron was getting slurped, he deserved every bit of it. Rose deserves most of the blame, in my mind, for the losses in Games 2 and now 4, but most of the media are just going to blame his “weak” supporting cast. A supporting cast that has three players on it that would be our 2nd best player, mind you.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Lebron is nowhere near the best offensive player in the game.
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
I think Dirk has that title.
Durant comes in close second, D-Wade is better offensively. CP3 brings more to the table.
Lebron is the best player in the league, but not the best offensive player.
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
Scoring and total offense are two different things.
Also LeBron led the league in scoring two years in a row. Are you watching the games?
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Uhhhh yeah he is.
He’s had the #1 PER, what, 3 years running now? PER is the best tool to judge overall offensive impact. He also has led the league in offensive win shares the last 3 years, as well as win shares per 48 minutes. As far as the eye test, he’s quicker AND stronger than 99% of the guys who guard him, he’s the best transition player in the league, he’s the best passer outside of Steve Nash and Chris Paul, he’s a great rebounder, he’s a great iso player, he can run the offense… To say he’s “nowhere near the best offensive player in the game” is just a result of hating on a dude.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
"just a result of hating on a dude."
Uh, no. He’s the best player in the league, but not the best offensive player. Check yourself before you pass character judgements.
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
Check facts before you make wildly inaccurate statements.
“Nowhere near the best offensive player in the game” is a flat out false statement. He’s been no lower than 4th in the league in scoring since he was NINETEEN YEARS OLD. He has the 2nd highest career PER in LEAGUE HISTORY, finishing #1 in the past 4 years. He’s been in the top 10 in the league in assists/gm FOUR TIMES (including the last three years in Cleveland). He’s 6’8", 240, strong as an ox, faster than almost everyone in the league from end to end, finishes inside better than anyone in the league, jumps out of the building, and is perennially in the top 5 in free throws drawn.
He just finished a year where he scored 26.7/gm with 7 assists on 59.4 TS%. And that’s while learning how to play next to another player with a very similar playstyle. Dirk might be more “refined” offensively, but he’s nowhere near as versatile as LeBron, he’s nowhere near the playmaker LeBron is, and he’s nowhere near as athletic as LeBron is. Durant can’t manufacture his own offense anywhere near as well as even Dirk can, let alone LeBron. Wade does everything LeBron does, just not as well at anything across the board. CP3 is the only one who has any argument, and it’s not even a good one, because his usage is so much lower and he’s just nowhere near the scorer that any of those guys are. He generates a lot of offense, but I’ll take 28 and 7 dimes over 18 and 10. But yeah, keep hating instead of checking facts.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Have you watched these finals? Yah, Lebron is DEFINITELY a top offensive player in the NBA.
Oh, wait, except he isn’t. Don’t believe the hype. Who’s the hater now?
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
you tyoed 100% wrong
No one is fast or strong enough to defend him. Dwight is the only person can stop him but that is because he prevents LeBron getting to the rim.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Nah, there is the occasional guy who guards him...
That is either stronger or faster. Never both though, and hardly ever one or the either.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
John Hollinger Tweet:
LeBron outplaying Rose isn’t reason enough to question MVP vote. LeBron outplaying Rose and NOBODY BEING SURPRISED, on the other hand …
As a big Derrick Rose fan and a big Bulls' fan...
…it’s been very painful for me to watch Games 2, 3, and 4. Rose’s mediocre play has given plenty of ammunition to the haters as his efficiency has been awful and his clutch play in the fourth quarter has been non-existent. In Game 4, Rose’s missed shots and turnovers added up to a ridiculous 26, not to mention the critical missed free throw in the final minute that most likely would have given the Bulls the win in regulation and a 2-2 series.
Rose admitted in the post-game interviews that it was his fault the Bulls lost the game (to be fair, it wasn’t solely his fault; Carlos Boozer continues to play a matador type of defense, Kyle Korver has been throwing up bricks, and Thibodeau refuses to play Kurt Thomas, a big man who can hit the 12-15 footer). Rose knew he messed up big-time; he said he needs to learn from this, and he will. He’s only 22 years old and with his strong work ethic and desire to get better, I have no doubt that he will continue to improve in future seasons.
No other player this season contributed to a higher percentage of his team’s points combining points and assists than Rose.
Even though the series isn’t over yet, I have to give credit where credit is due… Miami is playing great and their role players have stepped up big-time (Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Mario Chalmers). LeBron James took it upon himself to stop DRose in the fourth quarter in Game 4, and successfully did so; for that, he deserves much credit along with his fantastic offensive performance.
The Miami team as a whole deserves credit for being the better team through four games, but they still need to get that fourth victory to win the series.
Best of luck to the Tampa Bay Lightning in their quest for the Stanley Cup.
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
by Mike from Illinois on May 26, 2011 4:24 AM EDT reply actions
Sorry bro.
At least you are the only Bulls fan who admitted Dwight should have been MVP.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Yeah, Rose is an amazing player but his youth and inexperience is finally showing up.
I have mentioned this before that much of CHI’s offense depends on Rose, and when he is not delivering, their offense becomes stagnant. That combined with untimely slump of a reliable 3-point shooter explains the state of affairs in a series which – regardless of the end results – has been so close.
But the supporting cast actually has played good enough the last two games.
Yet they are getting blamed. When Orlando was eliminated, the supporting cast was the reason they lost. I am not so sure the Bulls are losing because of the Rose’s teammates. To me this is Rose’s fault. He can’t shoot, he is not an elite passer, he rebounds nice for a PG but he does not really effect the game rebounding, he is not a great defender. I just find it funny that Boozer(he of the back to back 20 10 games) is getting blamed for everything. Everyone knew he could not play defense. Now it is an issue? If they put in Gibson they would still lose, it would just be 76-68 instead of how they are losing now.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
The Bulls' supporting cast is trying and they're doing alright
…but their weaknesses and mistakes that have shown up throughout the series is magnified because Rose has been unable to pick them up and has struggled so much the entire series with the suffocating Miami defense.
In Game 4, Rose became just the second player in the last 20 years, with a minimum of 15 FG attempts, to shoot under 30% from the field, under 15% on three pointers, and to commit at least 7 turnovers in a playoff game.
The only other player to have done that… LeBron James. Rose is in pretty good company, and will bounce back from this.
Best of luck to the Tampa Bay Lightning in their quest for the Stanley Cup.
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
by Mike from Illinois on May 26, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
MVP voting is over, and why a Magic fan should care whether or not Rose is the best player in NBA?
He is an amazing player and certainly in the top 5 of NBA players, depending on how one frames the argument, and illogical resentment is unhealthy.
We are dealing with a gloomy situation for our Magic, and the culprits are still firmly planted in their chairs. I cannot wait to read analyses of grading the coach, GM, and scouts of the Magic on OPP and elsewhere. Until then … goodbye and stay out of harm’s way.
He is not top 5
And it affects the magic because Dwight Howard should have been MVP. It would be nice for the franchise to have it’s first MVP, which is odd since, Shaq, Penny, TMac, and Dwight have played for Orlando. Also I like the NBA. Why can we not have discussions talking about the NBA?? I know this is a Magic blog, but the Magic are in the NBA. So NBA talks will always affect the Magic.
Also the 5 players in the NBA right now are LeBron, Dwight, Wade, Paul, Durant. After that I would go Kobe, Dirk, Deron Williams, and then maybe Rose. Although Blake Griffin makes a compelling argument that he is already better than Rose. But Rose has been very good for two years and great for one year. One more season like last for Griffin and he will be a better player.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Ha? It affects Magic on something that is done? It would be healthy to get over it.
As far as where Rose stands in NBA, I honestly don’t care. But I am annoyed by all negatives towards one of the most exciting players in NBA right now, better than Durant, Wade, Kobe, and Deron Williams of the list of players which you have mentioned, in my view.
Of course, it's now all about Rose being let down by his teammates...
Not about Rose taking too much responsibility and shooting too many jumpers and committing too many bad TO’s. Or the fact that he was maybe the third best player on the floor for the series.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Congratulations to the Heat
…outscoring the Bulls 18-3 in the final three minutes to take the series and becoming the new Eastern Conference Champions. It was an epic comeback by Miami, and an epic collapse by the Bulls.
James and Wade did an incredible job in the final 3 1/2 minutes of making pressure shot after pressure shot, and playing lockdown defense against the Bulls.
A lot of Bulls’ fans are upset about the refereeing; while the Bulls did not get as many favorable calls as Miami, the refereeing was not the reason why the Bulls lost this series… the better team won the series.
Miami has proved everyone wrong who said that they are incapable of winning the close games; all their wins against the Bulls were close games.
As it turned out, the youth and playoff inexperience of Derrick Rose and the Bulls proved to be a detriment to them in this series, and the great play from James, Wade, and Bosh (along with key contributions from role players) throughout the series was more than enough to negate any advantage the Bulls had.
Best of luck to the Tampa Bay Lightning in their quest for the Stanley Cup.
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
by Mike from Illinois on May 27, 2011 3:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A classy post, Mike, as is always the case with you.
I don’t blame the loss of the 5th game on the players, entirely, although they are to be blamed, partially. Tactically, if the Bulls had defended the 3-pointers better for the 3.5 minutes at the end, they would have prevailed this game, and who knows what would have happened moving forward considering how close the series was.
I did say Heat in 5
I know everyone hates the Heat but I hate Boston and Chicago more. But Rose getting stuffed by LeBron on the last play wad poetic.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Plus getting swatted by LeBron to close the series out.
Rose got his come uppins.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
It's not Rose's fault the media's retarded.
He doesn’t bring it on himself like LeBron has. The media was just dying to anoint someone new in the wake of “The Decision”.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I am not buying Rose is some great guy.
he cheated on his SAT’s. Memphis had a great year that no longer is valid. He caused other teams a chance at playing for a National Title because he didn’t want to do anything with school. You don’t want to go to school do what jennings did and go to Europe. Don’t put other teammates career’s in jeopardy. I don’t care if he was 18. At 18 you know no one else should take your SAT’s. Durant is humble and geniune.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Dude, really?
First of all, I didn’t say he was a “great guy”. I said he doesn’t invite the media hype. As far as the SAT thing… Oh dear oh my! An 18 year old cheated on a test! He has to be a scumbag!!! Outrage is running rampant in my head! I sincerely hope no one in high school, athlete or not, has cheated on an exam. I mean, what if, heaven forbid, some college students have actually cheated on exams before?! What will we do if this somehow creeps into real life where someone cuts corners in able to get a job or complete a project?!? The world as we know it will unravel!
Seriously, you’re letting superficial crap cloud your judgement.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
It did come off excessive.
I just find it ironic that LeBron is called a quitter and everyone hates him. For what? Telling everyone on Prime Time that he is going to Miami? Throwing a party where he, Wade, and Bosh show they are arrogant and cocky? Memphis had a historic season and now that season is gone.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
It's different between cheating and and having someone TAKE your exams
I can’t say that the incident did happen cause it hasn’t been confirmed that I know of. You both have points though
They took the Banner from the Rafters.
It is official. How he gets a pass is amazing. 18 You know what is right and what is wrong. They tell you not to cheat or have someone take tests for you when you are 4 and beat it in your brain for the next 14 years. I don’t care if other people did it. Because I don’t know who they are. Dwight didn’t go to College and still took his own SAT’s. But it gets glossed over because he is humble and works hard. Nobody else in the league works hard.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
You can't say nobody else in the league works hard
Even if there are some people who are jerks(Lebron) or get the media’s spotlight(Rose) you can’t tell me that they don’t put in the practice and aren’t some of the hardest workers on their team. And what exactly gets “glossed over”? Dwight not going to college or taking his SAT’s? Because a Dwight conversation can usually involve someone talking about “if he went to college…” or something of the sort.
by BigMac12111 on May 29, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I never got why
Why is Derrick Rose given all this credit and named MVP? The broadcasters want to tell us that the Bulls don’t have viable scoring options on their team … Really? So basically I’m hearing Deron Williams is an ALL WORLD point guard whose greatness is so great we can’t seem to mention it and actually compare how he did more offensively with similar players, heck worse offensive players.
The Jazz of 2009 vs the Bulls of 2010
PG – Deron Williams vs Derrick Rose
SG – Ronnie Brewer vs Keith Bogans
SF – Andrei Kirilenko vs Luol Deng
PF – Carlos Boozer vs Carlos Boozer
C – Mehmet Okur – Joakim Noah
6 – Wesley Matthews vs Ronnie Brewer
7 – Paul Milsap vs Taj Gibson
8 – CJ Miles vs Kyle Korver
9 – Kyle Korver vs Omer Asik/Kurt Thomas
As you can see there’s a bunch of repeating names there and I would say you couldn’t seriously name the guy on the jazz besides D-Will who can break you down off the dribble (although Matthews is close, he wasn’t there in 2009).
Give me break media, you’re so eager to annoit the next Michael Jordan, and be able to relate to someone closer to your height (jk on the height), that you can’t seem to find the true MVP in Dwight Howard or LBJ. Those two had more compelling MVP arguements than D-Rose.
Get out of my House!
by ECFIVESTER on May 27, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
BRING ON THE ROSE HATE!!!!
I can’t stand him. Between Bucher and him winning MVP I can not stand Rose.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Rose won MVP because of how the Bulls overperformed during the regular season. Same with Thibodeau and the COY award.
I mean, at least Rose did what he could against the Heat (with countless bad shots and terrible TO’s and all), but Thibodeau made zero adjustments during the series, not even after having lost 3 in a row.
Magic Fan since the 1992-1993 Season.
Caracas, Venezuela.
by North of the South on May 27, 2011 3:47 PM EDT reply actions
At least Derrick Rose faced the media after each game
…and took accountability for his play and said that it was his fault that the Bulls lost.
All season long, I’ve been defending Rose as the MVP behind the Magic’s Dwight Howard. He certainly didn’t play like one in this series.
He made no excuses, and he didn’t duck the media.
Even though he’s just 22 years old, he’s a very mature, humble young man with a tremendous work ethic who will use this failure as a learning experience for the future.
Best of luck to the Tampa Bay Lightning in their quest for the Stanley Cup.
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
by Mike from Illinois on May 27, 2011 6:40 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, he took full responsibility.
He didn’t skip handshakes and didn’t skip out on the post-game conferences. He answered the questions and even said, “It’s on me”. Don’t know what else anyone could ask for. I repeat again, Rose is not to blame for the media hype.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
i do give him a ton of credit for that
I know cowherd said Rose should not say that, but honestly he did not play good enough.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
colin cowherd is exactly the opposite of bucher
its hilarious when bucher is on their show, its like an unstoppable force colliding with an immovable object…..they are both so absurd in their biases
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
their=his=cowherd
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Especially when Bucher was on three days ago or so
Butcher honestly believes Rose is the best player in the league. After one great season you get to be the best player. He barely cracks the top 10.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
thats just it
i dont think bucher loves rose half as much as he says, the same way i dont think cowherd is as opposed to rose as he says…i saw that interview u were talking about, and i was shell shocked by both men, the comments they made were absurd
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Bucher was clinging to his assertion as Rose as the best player throughout his chat.
It was sad, honestly. People were bringing up facts left and right, or counter-arguments, and he’s just like, “Rose is the better leader, better teammate, he’s the best player!!!”
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
yea that was crazy
and it was just funnier that colin cowherd would come back with “Derrick rose cant guard all 5 positions, he cant guard lebron, he cant guard bosh, he cant guard tyson chandler!”….i am positive that both mens are just doing ‘bits’ one of a supreme hater, and one of a supreme lover, both are completely out of line. And people wonder why espn is starting to get such a bad name…
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Cowherd likes Rose
Just not as much as media does. I agree with Colin on Rose.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
im sure he does
im sure ric bucher knows all of roses flaws and what he needs to improve, and didnt believe that rose should be the mvp LAST YEAR (last year bucher actually vouched for rose as mvp, and this was before he locked himself in a gym and made the drastic jump that he did….so yea) i think theres a bunch of espn guys that do ‘bits’ which is excessive reasoning on a stance, skip bayless, colin cowherd, bucher, hell even broussard with his sources…they are all bits….its not that they believe as strongly or stubbornly as they seem to believe in certain topics, but its what gets them paid, recognized, and is what pulls readers/watchers in
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Orlando fans are still mad.
Rose led a team with no other all stars to the best record in the NBA and an ECFs.
That seems like an MVP to me.
Struggling to score against a perimeter defense of LeBron and Wade is not something to be ashamed of.
LeBron struggled in the same situation. But hopefully Rose doesn’t pull a LeBron and skip town for better players.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 9:54 AM EDT reply actions
Dwight led a team to the NBA Finals......
Wait that is not an MVP??? LeBron has never struggled. Dude he averaged 42 ppg 8 rbs 8 assists in the 09 ECF. 42 8 8. LeBron may have struggled last year, but a teammate had an affair with his mom. That might take you out of your game. Still dropped 30 7 7 for the series. Come on now. LeBron “struggled” because Mo Williams was his second best teammate. Rose struggled, because LeBron LeLocked him down. I hate how Rose lovers make me sound like I root for the Heat.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
You're all over the place here
Dwight was not in the nba finals this year, and his team underperformed.
This wasn’t Dwight’s fault, but it does hurt his MVP chances. Howard is not the first player this has happened to.
Even with Rose poor shooting numbers, he was still able to lead the team to close games against a monster of a team. The numbers don’t indicate how bad Bulls teammates were in the 4rth quarter.
Literally the fourth quarter offense was: Rose passes it to a teammate, who would then shits himself and passes it right back with the time running down and the Miami defense keying on him to make a play against the best defending perimeter defense in the NBA.
That in my eyes was not enough of detraction to downplay his regular season accomplishments as the post indicates.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
"LED" In the past.
He LED his team to be the best team last year after the All Star game. He has been to two ECF. One Finals appearance. No MVPs for him. Yet Rose becomes the anti LeBron and now he is the MVP. Only legitemate argument for him was best player on team with best record. Rose was terrible this series. Admit it. Do not blame his teammates. They played well enough to win this series. Rose held them back.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
He didn't play terrible in the series
It was the 4rth quarter where the Bulls couldn’t close out, and this so happens to coincide with the fact that Taj Gibson was the Bulls second best scorer after Rose.
If you ignore that, I don’t even know what to tell you.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Rose was bad in the ECF.
Just admit it. Even in the two rounds before that, he was still shooting sub 40%. And that was against the fearsome defenses of the Pacers and Hawks. He’s a volume shooter, not a leader of a good offense as a point guard should be. He’s a terrific talent, but he wasn’t the MVP, and LeBron showed why. LeBron dominated on both ends, while Rose failed to do the same on either end.
The fact that the Bulls were close in almost every game despite Rose not playing well in the last four games disproves the whole “his team sucks” argument. It wasn’t like Rose was going for, oh I don’t know, 46 and 19 and the team still lost.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
This despite Rose stuff is such bullshit
The Bulls have no other player that can create his own shot or even be close to a reliable ball handler.
Rose played the entire second half in all 4 losses. Primary ball handler, only guy that creat his own shot, only player outside of Brewer athletic enough to start fast breaks, I’m not going to admit lies when i see the plain context of what happened.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
your argument is getting very tiresome
I'm a girl.
by TheGiantSquid on May 31, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So before Rose
Loul Deng couldn’t make a basket for some reason? Kyle Korver couldn’t get open for a wide open three (hit it) while his other teammate is being tripled teamed? Carlos Boozer disappears in the 4th?
So before Rose all of that happens? Give me a break, all of those players have long proven they come through in those situations in the past. What happened is the coach and Rose stopped running the offense and locked up, because Tom and Derrick believed he’d be able to get to the hoop or to the line each time. Neither one of them adjusted. Rose didn’t pass out, instead he turned it over or missed a contested shot. It’s not like this wasn’t apparant in the regular season, the MVP award shouldn’t have been his.
Get out of my House!
Did you not see those games???
Deng, Korver, Noah…all did nothing in the fourth. Rose passes to them, they pass it right back, or not even get open enough for the pass.
TAJ WAS THEIR SECOND LEADING FOURTH QUARTER SCORER. I don’t know how much clearer I can say it.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Who said anything about Noah?
That’s a mistake in the first place, running the offense through Noah.
And like I said it seemed to me, Coach Tom and Rose were running an inefficient offense. They were pigeon holding themselves by making Rose their primary, secondary and fourth option in the 4th quarter.
back to my point, Loul Deng is capable of getting his own shot, he’s proven that in the past. So the only identifiable reason for him to suddenly not be getting his shot, is for either Rose not running the correct offense or Coach Tom forcing an inept offensive scheme, in which case Rose is playing in such a way to make those who ignored his short comings an overly praised him for his flashy finishes look badly misguided.
Get out of my House!
besides
Rose is a PG that means he’s a facilitator. Steve Nash won the MVP twice because he made his teammates markedly better. Rose wasn’t doing enough to make his teammates better to merit such an accolade. He’s not even top 2 at his position, maybe top 3. CP3, D-Will, and (maybe) Rondo are better than him. CP3 and D-Will have complete PG games, Rondo is great defensively and distributing, and heck if Steve Nash were able to play defense he’d be better.
Get out of my House!
In the playoffs
Running sets do not always work.
That’s why you need great ISO players to win.
Heat have 3 great ISO players.
Bulls have won, and still gave Miami fits.
Miami on the other hand 3 great ISO players and will win the championship.
Do you see a pattern here?
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
er one, not won*
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Running Sets?
Boston Celtics. Orlando Magic. LA Lakers. All have dominated the playoffs last two years, running OFFENSES not ISOENSES. Atlanta hawks would have won 6 titles.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Lakers and Spurs
won a majority of the championships because of Kobe, Duncan, Ginobli, Shaq, Gasol..all guys who are great at ISo and creating shots.
I don’t see how this can be disputed.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
(of course they can play some defense as well)
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh that is right the Spurs.
Another team who runs offenses. Those guys could do that when they needed to. But the majority of the time they ran offenses. Didn’t say Iso was terrible. Just saying if all you do is ISO you are a lot easier to defend.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
ugh, that whole post sucked.
But hopefully you understand what I’m saying.
Lakers and Spurs dominated the championships post Jordan and all those teams had great ISO players.
Having a pg to run sets is nice, but it won’t be enough.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The Hawks have a couple of ISO players, doesn't mean anything
Cock my 40 glock and my partna just bought a replica
Now Asians sayin they don’t keep no cash in they register
We run from red & blue lights to get that green
But whoever got that white is winnin like Charlie Sheen
Huh?
Their players are nowhere near the caliber of the shotmakers for Miami or even Dallas/OKC.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I do
that you are missed informed about what kind of offense actually wins championships. Just Mateo pointed out, Teams that win the Championship run offense not ISO-enses.
Plus Bosh is not a great ISO player, he’s a good mid range shooter, decent rebounder, and has gotten somewhat better at driving to the whole, he is your Carlos Boozer, but taller and doesn’t rebound as well.
Get out of my House!
Wow
You need to seriously watch those fourth quarters again.
Deng was invisible.
It reminds me alot of what happened with Russel Westbrook.
Russ had to take alot of bad shots and force turnovers because his teammates flat out stunk.
And I’m sorry, but Durant stunk too. It was sad that he couldn’t even get open for an entry pass at times. And that’s the leading scorer in the NBA, let alone a fringe all star like Deng.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
He went 1-on-3 several times.
Bad TO’s, bad shots. When he wasn’t getting bailed out by the refs, he wasn’t producing. It’s the bottom line. He takes the most blame for them losing Game 2 and Game 4.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Bottom line is, his teammates gave him nothing.
No one is winning in those situations.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What about Boozer posting back to back 20 15?
Deng had 20 in a game Boozer had 20 as well. What happened to Rose?
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
GG
Why are you ignoring their play during crunch time?
Those are the times the Bulls lost, the4rth quarter, when the Miami defense stiffened and both of those players could not help.
You don’t think Rose of of loved to pass it to those guys and see them score? You really think Rose is that selfish?
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If Rose is being guarded by 6'8" LeBron
Then pass the ball. Blame the coach for not adjusting or blame Rose for not passing.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I just told you what happened.
He passed it to his teammates, they passed it right back.
I can see this argument is going nowhere.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I saw Rose play selfish, yes.
I saw him take it to the hole when it was clear that it was sealed off. I saw him turn the ball over when he did try to pass after getting himself in over his head. I saw him earn a clear charge when he could’ve passed the ball to Boozer who was wide open on the baseline 5 or 6 feet away.
He tried to do more than what he’s capable of. He’s not LeBron, he’s not Wade, he’s not CP3. He doesn’t make his teammates significantly better yet, and he was not the MVP. He can get there sometime, but he’s not there yet. What is so hard to accept about that?
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
He was selfish because no one else could score
or even wanted the ball.
Believe what you will, nothing I say will change your mind.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You mean he didn't trust his teammates to score
or his coach didn’t, that’s a gameplan error, and it just showed that Rose isn’t the next Jordan (yet, if at all) and he shouldn’t have been the MVP.
Get out of my House!
Also, "teammates gave him nothing".
Yeah, just like how they gave him the best defense and rebounding team in the league, which Rose did not contribute to. That’s why they were the #1 team in the regular season. That’s why they were even in the games as late as they were.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I clealry never mentioned their defense as a problem.
The defense was for the most part stellar.
But in the end, they became one way players.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on May 31, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I need to ask a question
Why is it everytime a team loses. it’s always one person’s fault.(mainly the superstar of the team) why isn’t the whole team never really blamed. Rose was played great the whole series unlike the regular season. and because he didn’t play that well it’s his fault. As i recall basketball is a team if rose was getting shut down the others were suppose to step up. His teammates really didn’t do anything like they did in the regular season. so how is this all Rose’s fault?
as a bulls fan it sort of is
hes the point guard, he has the ball in his hands the most, whether its because he decides to or because his team mates keep giving him the ball is probably irrelevant… he has more responsibility with what happens to the ball on offensive possessions, and at that time he couldnt do anything.
Credit the defenses of both miami and indiana for ensuring rose had a bad game, but u also have to single the guy who had the ball the most.
to be honest, i dont believe for a second that rose wouldnt be blamed regardless so long as the bulls had won. Much like people jumped on dwight when he couldnt get over the hawks despite the fact that he performed well, or lebron with the cavs, or bosh with the raptors…(okay maybe thats a bad example). Point is thats how the nba works. When you are the star player, you get most of the blame when you lose, and when you win you get the praise.
IN this instance, rose could have had a great series, but if they lost the guys who dont like rose still wouldve found something wrong with his game, if u dont like rose as the mvp, u dont like rose as the mvp…and theres nothing really that will ever change that.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Also, when the Bulls' offense would struggle during the regular season...
…Rose would usually bail them out with his brilliant play, especially in the fourth quarter of games.
He was unable to do that against Miami, thanks to the suffocating Heat defense which prevented him from driving to the hoop, caused him to miss so many shots, and commit so many turnovers, which seldom happened to Rose in the regular season during fourth quarters.
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago White Sox... 2005 World Series Champions
Orlando Magic... 1995 and 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Jun 2, 2011 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
yea agreed
like i said, credit miamis defense, but such a defense really wasnt around during the regular season, and thats part of why rose was able to secure the mvp this season. IN the latter half of the season, it wasnt just rose, but the team itself started coming out flat in several games. It was usually rose’s late game heroics that would get us the lead and the win. even in the indiana series this was true….
Ill agree with the idea that rose got the mvp on more story merit than anything, at the start of the season when he was putting up true mvp type numbers, no one was considering him for the mvp, cuz the bulls werent overachieving then in terms of victories. When the bulls started to really win and rise in the east, thats when rose’s name started floating in the real mvp conversations. Getting the overall number 1 spot in the nba as a team truly did cement his mvp status, his demeanor, highlight plays, and late game heroics were just icing on the cake for his story
If you guys think Dwight Howard was more deserving, you wont get a huge argument from me, but the truth is It isnt roses fault, the bulls fault, or the bulls fans fault that rose won the mvp and dwight didnt. And ultimately, if u agree with it or not, Rose is the mvp, and while he might not have been the best choice statistically, its not like hes a bad choice in any shape or form, his story truly was great, and as a player he is certainly one of the best.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
I need to ask a question
Why is it everytime a team loses. it’s always one person’s fault.(mainly the superstar of the team) why isn’t the whole team never really blamed. Rose was played great the whole series unlike the regular season. and because he didn’t play that well it’s his fault. As i recall basketball is a team if rose was getting shut down the others were suppose to step up. His teammates really didn’t do anything like they did in the regular season. so how is this all Rose’s fault?
MVP is different from Best Player, or LeBron would have won the past 3 years, and Kobe the past 4 years before that
Rose was a media darling because he turned an 8th seed into the best regular season team in the NBA, and all the credit was given to him and Thibodeau.
Forget the additions of Korver, Brewer, Asik, Watson, and Boozer. Deng also improved a lot besides, as did Noah.
In other words, his new teammates, and the improvement of probably the 2nd and 3rd most important players on the team had as much to do with their success as anything else, but Rose and Thibs got all the credit.
Dont get me wrong, I do think Rose is probably a top 5 player, but I think he was overhyped and overrated for the Bull’s success during the regular season.
I know MVP is different from best player.
That is why Dwight should have been first, then LeBum LeChicken. Still do not think Rose is a top 5 player. Hard to get there after 1 great season. Dwight has been elite for a long time now and some people still don’t have him in the top 5. Rose does not get there after one season.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I can name 5 guys better than rose
Lebron, Dwight, CP3, Dirk, D-Wade
next 5, Kobe, D-Will, Kevin Durant, Carmelo, Nash/Amare (tied)
next 5, Rose, Pierce, KG, Pau Gasol, Blake Griffin
next 5, Bosh, Eric Gordon, Granger, Boozer, Ginobli
next 5, Duncan, Parker, Kevin Martin, Andre Iggy, Russell Westbrook
I know that’s not a firm list, and it’s all my opinion anyways, but rose isn’t even a top 10 player for me still. top 11/12 yeah but not even top 5. Granted he’ll probably pass Nash next year, but Amare could just claim that spot all to himself instead. (I have a hard time putting a two time MVP winner with some of the best passing and offensive instincts in the game behind a media induced one timer, so far, and Nash plays with far less talent).
Get out of my House!
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