Van Gundy vs. Smith?
I think I've brought this up before, but I'm more curious now than ever: what is the relationship like between these two?
I remember after losing to the Lakers in 2009, Otis Smith being somewhat critical of Stan's 1 in/4 out perimeter game, wanting to play more "traditional" ball. Obviously the Magic's offensive strategy hasn't changed much, as they continue to shoot boatloads of threes.
But the roster changes Otis Smith has made the past two seasons don't seem to support this. Or anything else I can discern. At this point, I don't really understand what the Magic are trying to do.
We trade away Rashard Lewis, struggling yes, but a great fit for SVG's system with his length and perimeter shooting, for Gilbert Arenas. A guy who has no apparent place in our offense, or anyone's defense.
Ok.
Then we trade our best perimeter defender and streaky three point shooter, Pietrus, along with our only back-up center, Gortat, for the declining Turkoglu, and unproven Earl Clark.
(The Carter/Richardson swap was basically zero sum.)
Going back to the off-season, I kind of get the Quentin Richardson signing. He'd played for Stan before, he's historically a good perimeter shooter and defender, even if he has lost a step.
But Duhon? For four years? What was the rationale there?
What's the rationale for the Orlando Magic team we currently have? I don't have a clue what Otis Smith is trying to do, but I can't imagine it falls in line with Stan Van Gundy's vision for the Magic. For two years we've endured a lot of transactions, all of which have taken us further and further away from the team that got us to the Finals in 2009. They didn't seem to improve that formula, but change it, inexplicably. Smith brought guys in who just didn't seem to fit the gameplan.
And I wonder: What does Stan Van Gundy's ideal Magic team look like? He has the coaching pedigree. He knows what he's doing. I refuse to believe he intends for our sluggish pace and almost total lack of transition offense, our inability to create shots off the dribble, our insistence on taking ill-advised three pointers.
I also refuse to believe that Otis Smith wants this, either. But I'm seriously beginning to doubt they want the same things. This looks like a team pulled apart, spread thin.
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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Otis Smith listens to the media too much.
All the Finals team needed was a healthy Jameer Nelson. They should have brought back Turk then while he was still confident in his game. Courtney Lee should have been given the chance to grow with Dwight Howard. I like Anderson, but Courtney Lee is what Orlando needs now. The Finals team should never have been blown up. Again very easy to say that now.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
What SVG had in 09 was the team he envisioned.
His team was capable of beating anyone. They had shooting, slashing, spacing, defense, and grit. That team never should have been blown up. They were a layup away from tieing the series. Should have won game 4.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
That team had to be blown up
It was good then, but it wouldn’t be any good now. We’ve all seen the cliff Turk has fallen off.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
They would have won last year.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
by Mateo9399 on Apr 25, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I doubt it
Turk was already declining and the Magic would have run into the brick wall of Boston’s defense just as hard, with or without Carter.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
We will never know. But that team had a winning record over the Celtics. The Magic could shut their wings down.
Just like they could us down. That is why they were even matchups.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
foolish and nonsense rolled into one.
letting turk go for how much money he wanted made sense and cents. but the trades made to new jersey made no sense or cents.
if we’d kept rafer and lee around, as well as brought in Matt Barnes Will Kill You, and traded peaches and gortat for some real pieces or one legit scorer, not 2 old guys and the Earl of Clark, then we wouldnt be spending all this money on Gilbert “bringin guns to the” Arenas and chris who?-hon to not perform and struggling to get out of the first round.
and even if Matt Barnes Will Still Kill You left after a year, we would still have a committed defender in Lee as well as a younger core group that displayed a real strong and positive chemistry in 1 season together (Dwight, Lee, Jameer) as well as whoever we coulda traded Gortat and Peaches for, granted theyre under the age of 30.
I was a huge Courtney Lee fan.
He probably could be that guy we’re missing, who can break you down off the dribble. Not an elite scorer, sure, but certainly quick and capable. Able to get past defenders. He’s lost in the stacks in Houston, but still scoring 8ppg on 45% shooting (40% from 3).
I say "that guy we're missing" in a liberal sense.
We’re now missing a lot more than what he would bring to the table, sadly.
You're overrating Lee's offensive game
He’s quick but he can’t create his own shot, and he’s a mediocre shooter in general.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, no
His shooting percentages say he’s mediocre.
TS%: 53.4%
eFG%: 50.1%
FG%: 43.9%
You could scarcely design a more middle of the road, mediocre player if you actively tried.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
He had one year barely keeping up with a Championship-caliber team.
Then got shipped off to the garbage Nets. Now he’s lost in the stacks in Houston.
Think what you want. But the kid had potential to become more than he has, and could have been a good asset had the Magic stuck with the ’09 gameplan.
If he was as good as you think
Someone would trade for him and start him.
One NBA GM might be wrong, but it’s unlikely 30 are.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bulls wanted him
But did not want to give up Taj Gibson for him. Obviously a smart decision seeing how Boozer has struggled this postseason and has injury issues.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Exactly
Because Taj Gibson is better than Lee…
Lee is, of course, better than Bogans, which is why the Bulls were interested, but they really wanted Redick – the guy the Magic kept instead of Lee.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yes, you usually don't trade height for small guys.
Either way, the Bulls wanted him and he would have been there if they had one extra piece to trade.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
They wanted him because he's better than the guy they currently have
That’s all. Same reason people wanted Troy Murphy.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Thibedeu wanted Lee for the way he defended LeBron
and he also had a first row seat of the mugging Lee gave to Eddie House after the game he won for the Celtics. That is probably my favorite memory of Lee with the Magic
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Apr 25, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt it
Thibs has one of the best big wing defenders in the league.
He might want Lee for Wade or Kobe, but he doesn’t need him for LeBron. That’s Deng’s job.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 27, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
This is exactly the team the Magic should have dealt with b4 the trade deadline
Martin, Battier and Lee for some combination of Gortat, Carter, Pietrus etc.
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Apr 25, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't get greedy. Be realistic
Carter for Battier and Lee maybe. Or Gortat and Peaches for Battier and Lee.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
still
woulda been better than what were going with now. were gonna be an expensive old team. we give away draft picks like bad candy on halloween. Courtney Lee showed promise, and Rafer led us to a finals half way into a season. we traded them for carter, whos 75% retired and Rhino, whos a nice pick-up, but our guard play is whats slowing us down.
Lee was very good, because, at the time, he was playing with 3 All-Stars and Turk still in his prime (yet in a small decline).
Back then defenses around the league were doubling Dwght all the time, which meant that they had to leave someone open. I couldn’t be the other two guys playing at an All-Star level, it could be Turkoglu who was still lethal if given the chance, so who would you leave open? The rookie, of course.
Magic fans overrate Courtney Lee way too much.
Magic Fan since the 1992-1993 Season.
Caracas, Venezuela.
by North of the South on Apr 25, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Surprised by the Lee skeptics.
No one here is saying he was the next Dwyane Wade.
But he could have developed into a good scorer, like he was in college. Quickness, good instincts in transition. And, like I said, he’s shooting 45% from the field, 40% from three.
And in case you guys needed a reminder, he punked LeBron a few times back in 2009:
45% is not "good scoring"
He’s shot the ball decently from 3 point range this season, and he plays decent defense. He can’t be a good scorer at NBA level – he’s just not good enough.
And remember, he’s already 25 and about to enter his prime, and he’s still only a below average NBA player.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No one said he was Wade
But playing next to Dwight and playing next to Brook Lopez and Luis Scola(while playing behind the magnificent kevin martin) are two different stories. He would have been a solid player. The Magic did go to the Finals with him as probably our 4 or 5th best player. No one says he was a lock for HOF. But he was never given the chance to play alongside Dwight long enough.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Duhon looked like a solid PnR point guard
With decent defensive chops who could hit the three ball.
On paper, it looked like an OK signing, although I argued a lot with Evan at the time about whether the Magic massively overpaid.
He turned out not really to be any of those things, of course, which is a shame, but looking at the guy last year, I can see what Otis was thinking. He screwed the pooch on the length of the deal and the money, though. 3 years and $8m would have been more than Duhon’s best projection was worth.
Correct, Duhon's appoximate worth for his contributions is about $3.50
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Apr 25, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Another issue seems to be tempo, transition offense.
The Magic were a lot better in transition in 2009 (and in 2008, really). Turnovers led to a lot more fast break points. We didn’t have the luxury of Howard establishing position and going to work, so in transition he’d fill the paint, get the pass and rise up for the slam or ugly hookshot. If the defense collapsed quick enough, he’d dish it back out and someone always got an open look.
Your memory is failing you
The Magic have never created a lot of turnovers.
2008 – 26th in the league.
2009 – 25th
2010 – 27th
The pace dropped slightly after the trades this year, but otherwise the Magic have always played around the middle of the pack for pace.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
We will always suck in transition because Nelson cant finish at the rim against a single defender like other NBA pg's
Rose has made me painfully aware how valuable that is in a PG. Bad shots, steals and blocks turn into points EASILY if you have a PG that can finish at the rim 1-on-1
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Apr 25, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
The stupid fact of the matter is we only need DH to rebound
That means we COULD have 4 guys running after every shot
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Apr 25, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
You’re comparing Nelson to the NBA MVP?
Pretty unfair. Nelson isn’t Rose’s quality, wishing otherwise won’t change anything.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 27, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
We didn't settle for half court offense and wait for Howard to establish position inside.
We played faster. It wasn’t necessarily off of turnovers, but transition following rebounds. Howard moved more without the ball, facing the basket, rolling off of picks, which is why almost all of his shots were dunks.
This new post game has slowed things down.
I appreciate your argumentativeness, truly, but I never said we created a lot of turnovers. Just that the turnovers led to more fast break points because were better in transition. We had guys who knew how to fill the paint and kick it out to the perimeter when necessary, none better than Howard.
We weren’t playing the stilted half court game we are now.
I think you have rose-tinted glasses on
Magic’s pace by season:
2008 – 93.4 (9th in the league)
2009 – 92.3 (12th in the league)
2010 – 92 (18th in the league)
2011 – 91.4 (17th in the league)
I find it a little hard to believe that two possessions per game is making that much of a difference. Especially given how efficient Dwight is in the post these days,
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course not
I just don’t think the pace has anything to do with it.
The offense is worse because the players are, not because Dwight’s developed into one of the best, most efficient post players in the world and is taking high percentage shots around the basket instead of missing shots in transition.
If Orlando had more athletic players, I have no doubt we’d play at a higher pace. The pace is a function of the players’ abilities.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
The one who really surprises me is J-Rich. Did you see him at all in the 2010 Playoffs? He was huge in the first round, and it wasn’t just from putting up threes. He was driving, drawing fouls, dunking on people.
What happened to that guy?
And I guess, how much of this can be attributed to Nash running the offense?
Confidence is a funny thing
Everything’s hard when you don’t have it, I guess.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Its possible SVG's system doesnt allow for him to play that way
VC sure didnt
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Apr 25, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He played that way more often than J-Rich has.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
VC was fine
Kept up his Jersey numbers whilst in Orlando, and has fallen off a cliff as soon as he left. Whatever Carter’s problems, Orlando’s system wasn’t part of them.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 27, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The only thing I am interested in Van Gundy v. Smith is that the coach is protected against the blunders which were not due to his fault.
The nature of the relationship between the two does not really matter at the highest level of the Magic brass. My main worry would be if they decide to clean up the house fully, and bring in a young coach for the build-up. Of course, that would not happen if there is any hope of retaining Dwight. My guess is that Smith would be fired, this summer, but Van Gundy would be retained pending Dwight’s decision.
by Matt1325 on Apr 25, 2011 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I didn't read your post, just the title,
but I think Otis would take him. Much longer reach.
Stan’s plucky, though, so who knows?
If Redfield is OPP's best poster, and he's holding something back every night how can you say that doesn't affect OPP? He's their best guy! Your best guy leads! Your best guy sets the tone for everyone else! When Redfield cruises through game threads, makes dumb jokes, earns even dumber recs and disappears during debates (he doesn't even rank in the top 125 for insightful responses to trolls this season), you don't think that has anything to do with OPP's uneven season?
Stan would close right inside Smith's reach
He’s feisty.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 25, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
they were probably better off riding the rashard lewis trio and gang again since they had size then
i still didnt see them beating healthy boston or miami but u never know if those teams got injured
do u guys think stan or otis deserve to go
The offense we saw last night is EXACTLY what I've been talking about!
How telling was it that we started to shine the second Howard sat down?
Kind of like we did against Chicago without him.
But Howard clearly isn’t the problem. The problem is trying to route the offense through him in the post on every possession. When we play pick and roll basketball, we succeed. When we move Howard up higher and let him face the basket, he creates for himself and others.
I have to admit, it was a bit encouraging to see Arenas successfully executing the pick and roll with Howard and others. Maybe this can work out.
But this dumping the ball in to Howard and letting him post up every single time, or kicking out to perimeter guys who are just standing around, I mean…I don’t know why that was ever an option.
Because it's the most efficient scoring play in the whole of the NBA
by eltharion_doa on Apr 27, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
How efficient is it when it stifles the rest of the offense?
Not to mention Jason Collins does a great job at keeping howard out of position. Howard is far too turnover prone if he doesn’t get exactly the look he wants/needs. Not to mention it effectively neutralizes everyone else offensively as they sit out on the perimeter, well-covered.
It should be an option. Especially against teams who don’t have the post presence Atlanta does, like Chicago and Miami.
But we’ve got to stay more balanced and keep other guys involved, i.e. play exactly like we played on Tuesday, or better. I mean, we only shot 41% from the field. No one had a particularly big night. But we executed well, we didn’t turn the ball over, we kept our offense moving and creating.
It doesn't stifle the rest of the offense
Having Howard make 65% of his shots doesn’t immediately create some gravitational force that pulls everyone else’s shots away from the ring. And having Howard make a lot of shots is the best way to pull defenders in from the perimeter, so they can’t just sit out and cover.
One game doesn’t invalidate the approach of an entire season. Especially one game against a team which clearly couldn’t have tried less hard without getting deckchairs out on the baseline and cracking open beers.
by eltharion_doa on Apr 28, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
carter/richardson
i def dont think these two are a wash. Rich actually can step it up (last night). I can’t think of Carter ever really coming through.. with orl at least

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