This Is Not Vince Carter
by Evan Dunlap on Mar 28, 2011 6:00 AM EDT
in Commentary
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PrintVince Carter stands on the right wing, elbow extended, just beyond the free-throw line. The Phoenix Suns' playoff hopes hinge upon this game against the Dallas Mavericks; a win keeps them alive, while a loss puts them three games behind eighth-place Memphis with just 10 to play. As Aaron Brooks surveys the defense from the top of the arc, with a live dribble, Carter remains stationary.
Brooks finally calls for Marcin Gortat to set a high screen for him. As Brooks dribbles to his left around Gortat, Carter cuts from his spot on the right wing directly to the left elbow. "Cut" might not be the best word, really; it's closer to a jog. Brooks continues to noodle around with his dribble, and Carter takes a few casual steps back to the three-point line. Shawn Marion, the defender closest to Vince, pays him no mind.
Now standing in the left short-corner, Brooks rifles a cross-court pass to Grant Hill, who cut from the right corner to the pinch-post to receive the past. The third ex-Magic player on the court for Phoenix short-rims a jumper after backing Jason Kidd up with a few dribbles. As the ball leaves Hill's hands, Carter trots into rebounding position and comes away with the offensive board just on the right side of the rim, on the baseline. Dallas center Tyson Chandler turns his head away from Gortat, his man, to apply some pressure to Carter. Vince recognizes Gortat is now open, but his bounce pass through traffic is too low for Gortat to catch. "Carter got the rebound and threw it away!" says ESPN play-by-play man Dave Pasch as Jason Terry scoops up the loose ball and busts tail up the court.
Brooks intentionally fouls Terry to halt the fast break. Steve Nash checks in for Carter immediately. The game is knotted at 79. Dallas goes on to win, 91-83, thanks to tight defense and timely three-point shooting by Jason Kidd.
On the broadcast, Jon Barry notes Kidd, who teamed with Carter in New Jersey to form a damn fearsome backcourt in the first decade of this millennium, has gradually developed into a reliable three-point shooter after being woeful from beyond the arc early in his career. I can only assume Barry omitted mentioning Kidd's nickname used to be "Ason"--as in "No J"--because it's so well known by now.
Over a year ago, Tom Ziller and Bethlehem Shaols demonstrated Carter's productivity has waned in comparison to Kobe Bryant's as the two have aged. "No player has as intelligently tinkered with his game, and re-learned his movements, as Bryant," writes Shoals. "That's why he remains well above star level to this day, while Carter trailed off several seasons ago."
Carter finishes the game, which is his first reserve appearance of the season and just the ninth of his 13-year career, with 3 points on 1-of-4 shooting, and 0-of-2 from the line. Suns coach Alvin Gentry benched Carter in order to make room for Jared Dudley in his starting group. Dudley scored 20 versus Dallas.
While it unfolds, the whole scene is surreal to me as I watch from the comfort of my couch. Less than two years ago, the Magic acquired Carter and Ryan Anderson for next to nothing (the expiring contracts of Rafer Alston and Tony Battie, plus the youthful Courtney Lee) in a critically acclaimed move designed to put them over the top in the championship hunt. Now, following a midseason trade and a rocky adjustment period, he's coming off the bench for a lottery team, and even then only to loiter on the weak side and wait for a kickout.
Perhaps the abrupt decline in productivity indicates the Magic were wrong to acquire Carter, and to subsequently sign-and-trade Hedo Turkoglu away in free agency. Perhaps it doesn't. It matters little now. Turkoglu is back in Orlando and delivering the ball to Dwight Howard in better position than anyone else ever has. The team has won five straight games, the second-longest active streak in the NBA, and has a chance to enter the postseason on a high note.
Carter will become a free agent this summer, as Phoenix is certain to waive him before June 30th, thus guaranteeing him $4 million of the $18 million he'd be owed if not waived by that date. He just turned 34, is fading fast, and has lost rotation minutes to the likes of Josh Childress. He rarely plays in fourth quarters anymore. He's developed poor habits on defense and doesn't always go full-speed on offense. There is a 13-minute film reel breaking down Carter's poor play, using footage from a single game, making the internet rounds.
It's unclear if any playoff-caliber team will have room in its rotation for Vince. He will likely have to settle for a portion of the mid-level exception, if such a thing even exists in the new collective bargaining agreement.
I am not used to watching Vince Carter loitering on the weakside to wait for a kickout, but I am growing used to watching him settle.
I do not enjoy it.
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Great article!!!
A key read for those who are still hanging on to the notion that getting rid of Carter was a mistake. As I’ve always said, Carter will disappear right when you need him most.
Crushing weaker minds since 1978
Over 1 million served.
by Matty B on Mar 28, 2011 6:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Who knows how Carter would have played if he stayed in Orlando
He obviously doesn’t care about being with the Suns.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 28, 2011 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Really
I’m sorry, but neither do you. You’re not omnipotent. His attitude in Phoenix is clearly not the same as it was in Orlando.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 28, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Asking a rhetorical question is implying so much.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 29, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
So, what you're saying is that you absolutely meant nothing by posing that question?
And I’ll take that comment beneath carries no particular message either. Alright. If you say so.
What I meant
Is that nobody knows how he would have played if he stayed in Orlando.
Which is – shock, horror – exactly what I said. Except that I phrased it as a rhetorical question instead of a statement. I apologise if that construction confused you.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 30, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, it didn't confused me at all.
But there is clearly something wrong with your construction.
Here you say that your only intention was to point out at the fact that no one can possibly know how Carter would play if he stayed in Orlando while your original post clearly suggests that you think that he would do alright. Indirectly, of course, but that is essentially what you’re saying by making that “He obviously doesn’t care about being with the Suns” comment. Now, if no one can know for sure how he would play if he stayed in Orlando, how can you know that he wouldn’t do just as bad as he is doing right now in Phoenix?
That aside, it is apparent from your other comments that you have bias toward Carter, so I really don’t understand why is so hard for you to admit that you implied what you implied.
He'd be doing awful if he was still here. J-Rich is a better player at this point. That is all.
Crushing weaker minds since 1978
Over 1 million served.
by Matty B on Mar 29, 2011 5:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I disagree
He wasn’t awful before he was traded; he hasn’t been awful in Phoenix, despite not caring.
There’s absolutely no rational, logical or fact based reason to suggest he would suddenly turn into Gilbert Arenas at the wave of a magic wand if he’d stayed in Orlando.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 29, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say he would be awful, but...
… I sure am glad that he is not on our team anymore. Richardson is clearly a better player at this point in their respective careers.
Carter has been awful for years
He has never been a team player, never played defense, and always thought “me first”. He hasn’t been dubbed “Weak Juice” for no reason. Be glad to be rid of his rotting half-man half-retired carcass.
You've basically just admited you don't watch basketball
Or, at least, didn’t watch Carter in Orlando.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 28, 2011 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Seconded
Blake Griffin is a combination of Vince Carter and Charles Barkley.
by ben_gleicher on Mar 28, 2011 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
you got it
Otis Smith, what you've just done is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard of. At no point in your rambling, incoherent trades were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this blog is now dumber for having witnessed it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
by MoveThoseChains on Mar 28, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He may be a lot of things in Orlando, "'me first'" was not one of them
In fact you could say he could have demanded the ball a little more. More into situations that fit his play style.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
You sound like someone spitting out misconceptions of Vince Carter they read somewhere. Also, I've never heard "Weak Juice." That doesn't even make sense as a nickname
by nickswarriors16 on Mar 28, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Let's See
His P/Min, R/Min, and A/Min were the lowest of his career with Orlando, as was his shooting percentage.
He was not able to get the ball to the rim w/ any consistency for us, which also meant he didn’t get to the line as often as he previously had, and all this with us desperately needing a presence at the 2 and a player who could create his own shot, which Carter no longer can consisently.
Not to even mention his zero defense policy and his penchant for playing hard only when he felt like it. But yeah, I’m sure you guys are right, we’ve really missed his cough leadership.
Seriously, fans of the game of basketball should not defend VC. He was amazing to watch in his youth, but thats about it, he was not and is not the type of player this team needs to contend at a championship level.
And Weak-Juice is a name given to him by Bill Simmons for his weak style of play, a take off of Caron Butler’s self given “tough-juice” nickname. While Simmons always dogs the Magic, he was dead on with that one.
Are you serious?
His per minute stats dropped off about 2-5% in Orlando, despite playing a vastly less central role in the offense compared to his role in Jersey.
His free throw attempts dropped by all of 0.2 attampts per 36 minutes since being traded to Orlando. If you expected him to get to the line 8-10 times a game, that’s an error in your thinking, not an error in his game. Vince Carter has never, ever been that guy. As for playing no defense – that’s just so insanely not true it makes me wonder if you even watched a single Orlando game while Carter was here.
Carter might not ever win a title. He certainly wasn’t the same playing in Orlando that he was in Toronto or early in his time in Jersey (but, then, only the stupefyingly ignorant, mindbendingly dumb or flat out insane would have expected that) and he’s no leader and never has been.
You can criticise a lot about Vince Carter, but when you criticise is overall production in Orlando, you’re just making things up. He still has the 4th highest PER for this season on the entire Magic roster.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 29, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
He did pretty well as a leader
I know it sounds weird, but he really plays well as a leader, he changes his demeanour a bit and stops deffering, gets more into the game etc. Check out the Detroit game he had when Jameer, Dwight, JJ and Pietrus were out with the flu.
"He still has the 4th highest PER for this season on the entire Magic roster."
And how exactly is that something to be proud of?
That is a valid argument.
But I’m not talking about Richardson but solely about Carter, and for someone who was brought in to be our winning piece, him having “4th highest PER on entire Magic roster” is really not something you would want to use as your main argument to defend his production. In my eyes, considering his reputation, and our motivation behind his hire, the fact that he has “4th highest PER” rather than 3rd, or better, only emphasizes furthermore how much he failed us in Magic uniform.
Because PER means something to some people here.
Other stat people do not believe in PER. I do, hence as much as I loved Lewis I was for Bass and Anderson playing more. I agree with both of you. Vince was not really a problem. But he was not the solution either. That is what both sides are failing to realize. We were not going to do win with him. But we were not going to stink with him either. What’s funny is that we probably would have made it to the same spot I think we are going to make it now. With Vince I think we would have got to the ECF. Without him I still think we are going to the ECF. We are a terrible matchup for the Bulls. As long as we are healthy, I really think we will dispose of them. Carter or J Rich present matchup problems for the Bulls. So does Dwight. The Bulls, despite their recent offensive outputs, just do not score enough points. But the thing with Vince, is that we would probably lose to Miami or Boston with him. With J Rich, I think we have chance. I am not going to say it is a lock, but I think we have a better chance to beat those two teams now, because instead of playing 4 on 5 offensively we play 5 on 5 like you should in basketball. Turk, despite his struggles, is still a 100% better option at SF than what we had. And I believe J Rich has a higher ceiling than Vince, based off the fact that he is younger and last year in the playoffs if you were to compare him to VC it is not even close. Put away all the intangibles that everyone says Rich has or VC lacks or this and that. J Rich is 5 years younger(Either 4 or 5 I believe).
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I don't think he did particularly bad with us, but...
… when you bring in someone to be the last piece of your winning puzzle, and then that someone turns not to be that piece, I think it is only normal to be disappointed. Even if that someone doesn’t really play all that bad overall.
Like you said, I don’t think Carter was a problem, but he was clearly not a solution, and that been said, I like our chances with Richardson much better. And no, I don’t think Richardson is performing any better than Carter was right now, but somehow I feel that will change come playoff time.
I don't recall saying it was something to be proud of
I don’t recall suggesting pride is in any way whatsoever relevant.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 30, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta admit he has never been too in love with defense.
Plus, the guy looks like he doesn’t care anymore. Competitive players don’t let that happen. Kobe when the Lakers sucked? Still competed his ass off. Sad, but fits the mold of who is I believe.
He's a better defender than Richardson
That is unquestionable. And he competed hard in Orlando, which is all that matters.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 29, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty sure the only place he can go to now is New Jersey.
Apparently the fans want him back. Only place he was comfortable and the fans loved him. Very sad to see what happened to him. To anyone thinking Orlando would sign him, there is 0% chance they will. Also I think some people need to appreciate J Rich a little more. No GM would take Carter over him. Well unless they got Gortat back in a trade.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I don't think there's 0% chance of much in the NBA
I’d say it’s extremely unlikely he comes back to Orlando, sure, but 0%? No.
Like McGrady, who was radioactive this summer but whose play has been OK, even if he attitude has stunk, in Detroit, Carter will find a GM to roll the dice on him and maybe if he’s in a situation where he feels loved and wanted and gets the ball, he can find some game. Or maybe not.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 28, 2011 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree some GM will roll the dice on him.
I think New Jersey makes the most sense for him. The fans still love him, and it is the only place he seemed to enjoy his basketball.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I always bitched that Vince got no isolations in Orlando, that he only was used in pick and rolls.
Well now he gets no iso’s or pick and rolls or… anything, really. In Phoenix he’s strictly on spot up duty, and that’s not Vince Carter. He can still kill it on isolations. Next year looks grim. I kind of hope he retires if nothing else pops up.
Blake Griffin is a combination of Vince Carter and Charles Barkley.
It depends
If he somehow makes into a 6th player role for playoff calibre team like Oklahoma City, or with a team with strong-minded teammates (Boston) that he feels obliged to respect and work hard… maybe…
It’s a matter of playing him right, him playing right and being mentally into it.
He could “work” with Orlando because he kind of knows the system and put in some good effort in the beginning of the year this season because it was more “bussiness” here since there were good playoff hopes from the beginning.
Why is it sad, exactly?
He’s put this on himself by either not being in good shape, not giving good effort, or simply becoming old. I don’t get why people think its “sad” when a guy w/ good stats but is a perennial loser starts his decline and loses the talent that once made him “Half-man, half-amazing”.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
It's sad because of the waste
One of the most gifted players in the world seems to have lost his enthusiasm for the game.
by MagicPhan on Mar 28, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most gifted players in the world???
Where has that guy been the last 3-4 yrs? I’ve never really seen Vince with an incredible “enthusiasm” for the game. I’ve always seen him as a guy that if he isn’t scoring a lot and isn’t the go-to guy, he isn’t happy. If he got injured and was robbed of his abilities as a young guy, that would be sad (Shaun Livingston is sad) An old guy who just isn’t good anymore isn’t sad to me, sorry.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
by JeffShann3 on Mar 28, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll be sad when Grant Hill begins his downward spiral
That dude was going to have a hall of fame career until his ankle betrayed him. He’s busted his a$$ to get back and had to alter his game to compensate for what his body will allow. No one has ever accused Hill of being soft or mailing in a game here and there.
I have no sympathy for guys that take their talents for granted and never expand on them or seek to improve in other ways.
"Evan!
Unban me from the OPP!"...........David Polega
by AB's triple double on Mar 28, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He still will be a HOF
Two time college champ, gold medal, 6-9 years was probably a top 5 player in the game. Remember it is the basketball HOF, not just the NBA. It is all fashions of basketball. Probably why Ginobli makes it in as well. But do not worry, Grant Hill will be there.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
THIS I can get behind being sad. Hill losing his ankles at the peak of his prime sucked.
I am less sad for him now though since he’s been able to recover a little bit, but it does stink to think about what could have been for him.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
Let's put the write-up in its proper intended perspective, which its title speaks volume about. What is unfolding in Phoenix is sad, but truly "This is not Vince carter".
I don’t intend to get into the details of what is happening, and whether or not it may affect Carter’s potential for getting into a productive frame of mind for a contender, in the future. What I intend to do is to detract moronic views from connecting what is happening in PHO with how Vince – especially this year – performed in Orlando.
The numbers on Carter – in Orlando – don’t lie, despite some cheating hearts who may want to claim otherwise. There were many good write-ups on OPP which compared Carter’s numbers with those of J-Rich, which I will try to find and post a link, later. The fact remains that despite the futile attempts of proponents of trades by piling up on carter and others, that Magic team, prospect-wise, was mentioned in the same breath with BOS and MIA while CHI was not. Now CHI has entered the picture, and Magic has fallen off.
Yes, it is sad to witness what has happened to Carter. It is time to sympathize with him, and hope that he will find a way to motivate himself for rekindling the types of memories that we are used to have from him. Not to pile up on him to prove a petty point on foolish trades now being emphatically rejected.
Vince never wanted to leave Orlando, but that is the nature of the business. I know Vince from highschool and he is wanting to come back home. I know why Vince is playing the way he is, because he hopes to be waived before the playoffs and get back with the Magic (which might not happen,but if these injuries keep going and Carter is released it might happen). I wish Vince well and hope he can pull it together. I hate to see a great talent go to waste.
It is too late for him to be waived and join a playoff team.
Needed to happen early March. I think it was the 1st or 8th. Somewhere around there.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
"a great talent go to waste"
EVERYONE who plays the game loses it at some point. Its not “going to waste” if it simply isn’t there anymore.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
Speaking in absolute terms is wrong in a world whereby every thing is relative.
Talents are not lost overnight, and Vince’s stats show that he could still be ‘relatively’ productive in proper/conducive environments.
I dont know, I guess I am just missing something.
There are plenty of guys that put up decent numbers in this league.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
Including Carter when he was playing with Orlando.
Unless you’re arguing something happened to him on the flight to join the Suns.
Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.
Nah... I mean, in the beginning he played kind of decent
But he stopped completely to get to the rim. He played and plays well in the post, however I haven’t seen him play one possession in the post the last few games with the Suns.
If his shot is falling, then OK. If not, then he’s pretty much useless. That’s on everybody, with him on top at this point.
He doesn’t seem to care at all he’s in a contract year so whatever is going on, be it personal, health-wise, mood or just giving up on basketball, that’s what’s happening.
He was a more accurate scorer than Richardson.
.557 this season — not brilliant, but securely above the league average. And I’m not even going to bring up his second-half numbers from last year… maybe those weren’t sustainable. But he certainly had a brilliant half-season as recently as last year… 60%+ true shooting after the All-Star Break. He was a huge reason why the Magic went 33-8 in the second half last year.
And yeah, he became more of a jump shooter than a slasher. But how is that a bad thing? Jump shooting is inherently more efficient than slashing, with very few exceptions.
And Carter in his prime wasn’t an exception either… he was never an efficient scorer. The .557 he posted with Orlando this year would’ve been .002 away from a career high for him.
Anyway, if you remember early 2009-10, it was apparent that his ability to drive the lane was mostly gone. He adapted pretty well to that.
Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.
Yeah he did but he moves so weird, like he has zero leg strength nowadays
I think he has been genetically gifted leg-strength wise and didn’t have to work too much for that, so he can’t really adjust to strength training correctly etc, nor does he care about it too much.
But why do you say jump shooting is better than slashing. When you slash you do a lot of good stuff – drawing defenders, opening up lanes for your teammates, getting fouls, getting to the free throw line, creating opportunities. Jump shooting doesn’t do too much except maybe drawing your defender closer and stretching the floor if you’re a good shooter.
I guess I'm saying three-point shooting is more efficient than slashing.
For most players who can shoot threes, at least. Mid-range and long jumpers aren’t good. But I don’t think of Carter as a guy who was taking a lot of 18-footers.
Personally, I’m not crazy about driving the lane in the Magic’s current lineup. Driving the lane is clogging the lane, thereby making it tough to get Howard involved. I know there’s a place for it, but still.
Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.
Well he's taking some 18 footers now with the Suns
Because he doesn’t care what happens…
Agree with you 100%
I only want slashing when we are in the bonus. Specifically Bass, Nelson, and Redick. Bass more via pick and roll. But I would like these 3, since they are probably our best FT shooters, to take advantage of the bonus.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I agree. He did seem to be great as recently as two years ago.
But he never seemed to mesh well with Orlando, and in Phoenix he has been just as big a disaster as Hedo was for them. What is funny, is he might fit pretty good in Chicago. he may be struggling, but he is still light years ahead of Keith Bogans. Wonder if Rose recruits him next year. That would be interesting.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
It's not only that
His daughter is here, family is here and so on. I wouldn’t be shocked if he chose to play for either Orlando, Nets or Bobcats the next season, with Orlando being by far the top choice.
The question is – if VC comes back and actually plays well, where do you play him. Who do you start. What do you do with J-Rich. Or JJ? etc.
I don't think Dwight wants him here.
I look at his press conference last year after the Boston series, and he said wanted players who played hard. We will never know, but to me it really came as a shot at Vince Carter. Anyone can say what they want about Rashard, but I never questioned his desire. He just look like his body caught up to him and was probably not healthy, as evidence that he is getting surgery. We were probably just better off shutting down Rashard and bring him back next season. But oh well.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
If I am a guy who busts my butt every day and never misses games even though I routinely get beat on
and I watch an older guy who doesn’t seem to care as much as I do come in and continue to not care as much as I do, take dumb shots that he doesn’t have the talent to make anymore, and fall down and injure himself constantly, I wouldn’t want to play with him either.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
I agree ... I wouldn't want to play with that guy, neither. Trouble is to break down those elements and hang them on Vince, especially based on his numbers this year.
How soon we forget that after the virus hit, Vince and Rashard were all-out bright spots for us to win games?
Most disturbing in this conversation – not your point of view though – is connecting Vince’s performance in BOS series – small sample, if you will – while disregarding his performance this year, and jump to the conclusion of Dwight not liking to play with him. That kind of stuff truly belong to tabloid magazines.
Wonder how he feels about playing with Zombie Gil then
by eltharion_doa on Mar 28, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Great read, Evan.
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
Excellent Write up.
Excuses. Reasons you failed. No one wants to hear them.
by NO PITY IN TIMBER CITY on Mar 28, 2011 10:56 AM EDT reply actions
I always liked Vince
maybe just because everyone else hated him so much. I felt like he needed someone sticking up for him. He’s just not useful anymore in the NBA. Unless you pay next to nothing. Then why not. But maybe he should retire and run his restaurant in Daytona. I’ll drive down there and hang with you Vince. I promise I’ll never bring up the Celtics series.
The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy
That is the 2011 Vince Carter. And a lot of these habits were brewing when he was in Orlando. I’m just glad Magic fans don’t have to endure his play anymore.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Yeah.
We get to watch a worse SG.
(Granted, we also have Hedo, who’s miles better than anything we had at SF early in the season. So good for that. But still.)
Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.
JRich is worse than Vince? I beg to differ…if anything, he is younger and a bit more motivated. There’s a reason he doesn’t have the fans’ scorn the way Vince did. Think about it.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Vince had and has everybody still wanting a lot more because he's proven in the past, even in the near past (48 point game) that he can be much much better
What is limiting him is effort, shot selection and ball-in hand.
OK
Because most fans are idiots? Because Richardson doesn’t have the weight of expectation of a glittering All Star career to impossibly live up to long past his prime? Because Richardson isn’t considered, for absolutely no reason other than moronic sportswriters, to be “weak”, “soft” or “un-clutch”?
Anyone who had reasonable expectations of what Carter should be and pays more attention to reality than nonsense spewed by gibbering hype merchants knows that Carter did OK in Orlando. Not great, but OK. He lived up to reasonable expectations.
As for Richardson…he might be a better fit in Orlando; he might be more motivated; he might be healthier; he might hit the big shots – but is he a better player? I think that’s an argument that can be had. I don’t know which side I’d even be on. One thing I will say for sure – Carter phoning in games with the Suns is utterly meaningless in determining the answer.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 29, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Will miss the Vinsanity.
Fear the Beard!
by BleedingBlueSince89 on Mar 28, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions
Hopefully he latches on to Grant Hill's training regime this offseason.
He needs to reinvent himself and go somewhere coming off the bench. Apparently Hill does some crazy stuff that keeps him in fantastic condition. Carter needs to decide if he actually wants to play ball still and then train like he will actually do something.
by modano9 on Mar 28, 2011 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Probably won't
When you have the physical gifts he does, sometimes you do not put the effort it takes. Look at Kobe and Jordan. Not the most physically gifted guys, but their work ethic is off the charts. That is why they are great. Look at LeBron. Why does he still have no post game? No work ethic.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Kobe and Jordan (especially Jordan) are "not the most physically gifted guys"?
I’d like to know one then.
You might be right that they're not the most physically gifted guys to ever play the game, but...
… that was still an awful example. I get your point, and as a matter of fact, I agree with it, but yeah, that was just an awful example.
Probably right
But when you compare them to people such as LeBron, Magic, Shaq, Dwight, Karl Malone. I meant physical specimens. You are right that those are bad examples. But at least you got the gist of what I meant
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Kobe vs TMac vs Carter
All 3 had about the same physical gifts when they came into the league; about the same height and build and athleticism. For years, I argued with folks that T-Mac was actually the most gifted out of the 3 because his court vision was much better and I think he is a little taller than both of them.
I’m a huge Kobe hater, but what makes him special is his work ethic and his desire to kick everyone’s a$$ and thats what separates Kobe from the other 2. Kobe realized a few seasons ago that he has to change his game a bit to remain effective. Carter still has not realized how to remain effective at his later stage of his career and will likely lead to his retirement this year.
David Aldridge has a great article today about Grant Hill’s evolution into a defensive “stopper”. Hill is a great example of how an older player can still be effective at a later age and the hard work he put in to change his game.
"A man has got to have a code." -Bunk, Season 1; Omar, Season 4.
by L Magico on Mar 28, 2011 2:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Carter won't retire unless he's sick of the game
He’s still got enough skill the be a piece.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 28, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Granted that Grant Hill has modified his game, but he has always been a good defensive player. Plus, all the years which he has missed, places him in a 'low mileage' category player
People forget that Vince did whatever was asked of him to do, and never complained or said anything negative about the team or a player. As a matter of fact, he did not make as many comments in 14+ months as Arenas did in two months. It is a classless act to state anything about a player which has moved on except for gratitude for his service. That is not the same with a player which is still on the roster, and does not perform. If I was in Arenas’ place, I would have not left the gym until I either strengthen/fix the leg or break it for good.
I don't see how any of what you just said is relevant at all to this discussion.
And I doubt that if you were in Arenas’ place that you wouldn’t leave the gym until you “either strengthen/fix the leg or break it for good.”
I'm sorry if I sounded disrespectful, but...
… "if I was in Arenas’ place, I would have not left the gym until I either strengthen/fix the leg or break it for good" sounded like quite an overstatement to me, to say the least. Especially the part “or break it for good.”
But you’re right, I don’t really know you. Perhaps you’re indeed more intense than a guy who brings guns to locker room and has sharks for pets. I really have no way of knowing that; it’s just from my experience that people almost always sound tougher online than they are in reality.
All that been said, I still don’t see how Arenas has to do anything with discussion started in the post above.
by Mr. Hyde on Mar 28, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, if you look at the totality of my comments on this thread, I advocated the idea of not piling up on players who have moved on, while did their best during the time with us.
I then contrasted that with current players on the roster who should be open to all criticisms, and within that frame, I compared Carter with Arenas.
As for the comment which you have noted, I don’t know if I am tougher than anyone, but there is a theory – somewhat tested – that in order to strengthen/fix an injury, one needs to push it to the limit. Now the downside to that would be to aggravate the injury, and that is what I was referring to as “break it for good”.
Now, we often look for our audience to infer some from our writings without having to go into expansive details … or else, all postings would be too long to endure.
I liked this write-up a lot, Evan. Nice use of dramatic language, and really great tone. Good job.
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.
I give Carter credit for improving his efficiency considerably last season
Last season, in November, December, and January, Carter’s efficiency was very mediocre, and he averaged around 18 shots a game, which is too many when you have a center like Dwight Howard. In February, March, and April, his efficiency improved considerably (as did the play of the Magic) as he averaged around 12-14 shots a game. His TS% of 54.1% for the season was pretty good considering he was so inefficient the first three months.
This season, his TS% of 55.7% with the Magic was among his career-best, before the trade to Phoenix sent his efficiency in a downward spiral, as his TS% with the Suns is just 51%.
Yes, Carter did disappear in key moments in the Boston series last season, and he struggled with a TS% of just 50.6% in the playoffs, but the rest of the Magic team also had their bad moments against the Celtics.
I believe he tried his best with the Magic and provided a few thrills along the way (who will ever forget his 48 point performance against NO last February), but ultimately things just did not work out.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 28, 2011 3:22 PM EDT reply actions
Excellent post, Mike. I, however, would ask how do you qualify the very last phrase?
Based on your own post, Carter had a TS of 55.7% and, I may add that: 1) Magic was on par with prior years’ records; 2) was considered an elite team in the East; and 3) had just defeated MIA and demolished CHI.
After the first loss to Miami Orlando was no longer considered a title team.
1-9 didnt help either
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Let me try to qualify my last phrase, Matt
…would VC have continued to shoot very efficiently from the floor like he was if he was still on the Magic, or would his efficiency have dropped significantly like it did in the playoffs last year.
As a VC fan, I would hope he would have continued his efficient performance from the first month and a half of the season, but Otis Smith felt like Carter wasn’t the answer and he had to pull the trigger on the trade, so we’ll never know how the Magic would have performed if the trade wasn’t made… we can only speculate.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 28, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
My guess based on what we have seen from him this season
and from other older players on a similar career arc to his, he wouldn’t have been able to keep up the same efficiency. I don’t see older players getting better as their career goes on, they get worse. Especially when they stop attacking the rim and drawing fouls, and begin to rely more and more on fadeaway-off-balance jumpers and three pointers. But that is just my opinion.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
It depends on how you use him/where he receives the ball/if he uses triple threat/conditioning/discipline and A LOT OF OTHER THINGS
A player’s life is much more complex than just a few variables. If you put him in the post or if he plays the pick and roll inside the three point arc I think he can be really effective.
But at this point, he doesn’t seem to want/care about that at all. His ballhandling is so bad right now, everything is bad… definitely mental.
"Otis Smith felt like Carter wasn’t the answer and he had to pull the trigger on the trade".
Is that good enough for someone as quantitatively and logically competent as you, for a GM to act based on his feeling? Where was any evidence that his efficiency would drop? Even last year, outside BOS series, I don’t believe that he performed less than expected. And in BOS series, just about everybody performed below their averages due to BOS’s superior defense.
If Orlando don't win the title
Otis should have to answer for that judgment call, like he will for all the others he’s made.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 29, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike as always
seems to be the happy middle ground we all agree with. I hope you don’t mind this comparison, but in Gladiator nobody respects the new Caesar, but everyone listens to his sister. I hope you do not mind the comparison to a female character in a movie, I hope you understand the comparison.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Not a problem at all, Mateo... I appreciate it!
I know what you’re trying to say by the comparison.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 28, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
To me, Carter is just disinterested of playing for Phoenix.
He was playing well with the Magic before the trade, but as soon as he got to Phoenix his numbers across the board, all dropped. It’s not the same to be playing for a contender, that is near your hometown, to playing for a lottery-bound team.
I’ve occasionally checked the Brighter Side of the Sun blog, and it seems that while he has had some good games here and there, most of the time it looks like he simply doesn’t care. Too bad. I would’ve liked to see old glories like Nash, Hill and Carter giving a scare to one of the top West teams in the first round.
I can’t believe people are still blaming Carter for last years ECF. It was a “team failure”, every one player in the roster had bad games during that series. The best overall Magic guy vs. Boston was JJ, and even he made an ugly mistake late in a game that cost the Magic a loss.
Magic Fan since the 1992-1993 Season.
Caracas, Venezuela.
by North of the South on Mar 28, 2011 4:00 PM EDT reply actions
VC played great in the 1st game
Jameer also did a good job, and Dwight had his moments as well.
Why I still read this site-Thank you Evan
I’ve always been a Vince Carter fan first, and the fan of any team second. I am
such a huge Vince Carter fan that as a member of my 300-level sports literature class I dedicated an entire semester to researching media distortion as it related to the popular perception of Carter, and how that could potentially be extrapolated to other people in the media converage of sports. Regardless, this is an incredibly objective and unbiased article which points out many things I as a dedicated fan of Vince Carter, and an advocate against reason in some cases, have noticed. It’s unfortunate that most of you as Magic fans did not truly get to see Vince Carter when he really couldve made a difference, but you should know that I only really started to become frustrated with him last year-this after the media and casual fans villified him for years. He came to the Magic a year too late, not to help them, but to be the superstar which they needed. He never was really able to develop the correct identity with the Magic, and he may not have been the most ideal fit. However, while watching him in Orlando was frustrating as his fan, watching him in Phoenix is downright depressing. No one involved in his situation is remotely interested in making that situation work, from Vince to Gentry to Steve Nash. I have nothing but respect for Steve Nash, but he made absolutely no effort to modulate his game in order to better fit Vince’s. While I understand this, as Vince was never in their long-term plans to begin with, his already diminished ability to be a go-to scorer was all but nullified when he was cast in the system as an afterthought. Two years ago, Vince Carter was an all star nearly as exciting as he had ever been, and leading a Nets team with 3 NBA-worthy players to 33 wins might be one of his most remarkable achievements. It’s regrettable that with the Orlando and Phoenix stints, anyone who did not pay attention to Carter’s career are only reinforced in their beliefs about how his legacy should be passed on. I know that Vince Carter was one of the ten best basketball players of the last decade, and to me should be a hall-of-fame player. I also know that in the last two years, he has largely dissapointed me with play far below his standards, some as a result of simply not being able to produce at the same level, and some (especially this year) as a result of being disinterested. Bill Simmons once wrote something along the line of that he hopes people in 50 years don’t look at Vince Carter’s stats and consider him a worthwhile basketball player, because he wasn’t. Watching Vince now, I worry that this Bill Simmons is likely to get his wish, and that will mean that one of the most pervasive misconceptions in the world of 21st century sports will live on. And it’s something that I’m having an awfully hard time stomaching. I appreciate that even as a largely unbiased writer, Evan, you recognize how sad the current situation in Phoenix is, and how quickly it has deteriorated. As someone who has dedicated 13 of my 21 years of life to being a fan of Vince Carter, it is all but eviscerating to watch this unfold.
by nickswarriors16 on Mar 28, 2011 4:17 PM EDT reply actions
Man, I swear I would kiss you if you were standing next to me
Watching Vince ever since he was traded from the Raptors to the Nets, almost all his Nets game basically, waking up in the middle of the night or staying late nights to see his games – I can surely tell you he really made a difference in my life. Truth be told – I find hard to mention any people really doing a positive influence/making me happy. He really, genuninely affected my life positively BY A LOT. So with that in mind, I’m with you 100%.
Haha, its good to know I'm not alone
I completely agree, but the nature of having a role model who is in the public eye makes it that much more painful because they are exposed to criticism, both fair and unfair. I hope to flesh out the paper a little more either this summer or after I graduate/Vince retires in order to appropriately recognize the difference has made in my life, and hopefully to change some opinions as well. For now, I can only watch miserably as what is left of this season unfolds, and remember better times.
by nickswarriors16 on Mar 28, 2011 5:02 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, you better believe I remember better times
People are so quick to forget… if a player plays 10 games well and has an off game, people will start to blame him like I don’t know, he should be robotic or something.
Trust me, you’re not alone, and I haven’t forgot how much good he did to me, albeit not knowing about it that doesn’t cancel the effect, so no, you’re not alone and I know people of similar beliefs.
Final Point
The last thing I want to say is that I hope anyone who hates Vince Carter and thinks he is a worthless basketball player will do one thing for me. Look up “confirmation bias.” It is the phenomena which is responsible for so much of the vilification that he has endured. And it’s sad that people cant move past it
by nickswarriors16 on Mar 28, 2011 5:12 PM EDT reply actions
Also, hope you know this
You were mentioned on the basketball jones today for this article
by nickswarriors16 on Mar 28, 2011 5:27 PM EDT reply actions
If you compare his attitude here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuP0im0c1Ok
with what he gives to the Suns right now, it’s such a tremendous difference.
Thats funny I made the Vince Carter post after that Suns, Lakers game.
Guess I was ahead of my time. If you need some help Evan I’m here for you!!!!! :)
This is so sad. I just hope Vince retires gracefully at the end of this season, instead of becoming another “used to be great” player who just had too much pride and ego (like T-Mac) to know when it was time to get off the court and settle for a worthy role as announcer, ambassador, etc…
I don't
I hope he plays for a contender and starts to man the F up, and play like he really wants to. The whole thing is rediscovering his passion for the game, and he did a good job today against the OKC. Maybe he’ll play for them, who knows? Durant is a big VC fan.
It's good to see his fans stick with him.
Raptorel, you are loyal through and through. We can always count on you for a homerish response to VC criticism (and I mean that as a compliment).
"...sometimes your eyes lie to you..." ~SVG | I'm on Twitter
by magicfaninTN on Mar 31, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah, you can, but I try to keep things as objective as possible
But I know how great he is (well, was, but he can still do it – it’s between the ears…)
He'll be on a New Team NEXT season.. Dallas? Nets?
I would love to see Carter back in New JErsey pair up with D’Wll, Lopez. I know that the Nets are having a huge plan next season. Carter will be good also with the MAVS with Dirk and Kidd. But im really doubtful he’ll be back in Orlando, with having bad huge contracts of Hedo and Arenas..
by Rj Sandoval Gonzales on Apr 1, 2011 1:15 AM EDT reply actions
I've only watched a few Vince Carter games in Phoenix.
But this is one of the few times I’ve seen him getting iso’s rather than being a spot up shooter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqF6zmFzLSM&feature=channel_video_title
http://otrbasketball.com/forums
Yankees-Nets-Broncos
hmmmm
maybe the line up should be Howard, Bass, Hedo, Carter and Nelson. When that trade happened lasy year Im still shocked that VC got traded even he performed quite well this season with Magic..
by Rj Sandoval Gonzales on Apr 4, 2011 8:19 AM EDT reply actions
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