All the "where would they be without him?" crap you hear about Derrick Rose? It's meant for Dwight Howard. Because without this man's dominant 28-point, 14-rebound, four-block, four-steal night, Orlando loses by 25 to the freakin' Cavaliers. Derrick Rose may lead my favorite team to a championship this year, but I'm not daft enough to overlook Howard's MVP season.
about 1 year ago
Evan Dunlap
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Dwyer ftw.
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
by fwedo on Mar 22, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I second that!!!
Yo! I am Twitter!! @McLeanCromer Follow me!
Magic Fan...all day, every day, even on Sunday!
by Bonafidebrother on Mar 22, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Kind of a testament to how poorly the overall team has been playing for most of this year, but it’s an accurate statement
Dwyer rarely fails to impress with his insight
Kind of a testament to how poor the current team is in general minus Dwight, whether playing good or not
Without Dwight and everyone playing at their PEAK, I believe we are 5th seed at best, in a down NBA year.
The issue:
“…but I’m not daft enough to overlook Howard’s MVP season.”
All the MVP voters are, though.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Mar 22, 2011 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Bi-Winning
"Evan!
Unban me from the OPP!"...........David Polega
by AB's triple double on Mar 22, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Dwyer is emphatically on target but the team's standing has always had an impact - however subjective - in MVP voting.
From the other hand, I suggest that CHI’s standing has a considerable uptick on Rose’s MVP voting.
CHI success is more to do with Coach Thibodeau.
He is their true MVP. Without him the Bulls are still last years Rose led team.
by O-Town MagiCane on Mar 22, 2011 4:04 PM EDT reply actions
Actually, Brewer is averaging five more minutes per game off the bench than Bogans is starting
Brewer is averaging 22.5 minutes per game to Bogans’ 17.6.
Thibodeau has been steadfast in his belief that Bogans should start and Brewer should come off the bench, and it’s worked out really well for the Bulls. Bogans is a decent defender and is capable of hitting two or three three pointers when he’s in there. Brewer is a terrific defensive player and spark off the bench.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 22, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Now that you mention it...
This Thibodeau was branded some sort of defensive “genius” way back to his days as an assistant coach in Boston.
Question is… how does he stack up to Stan Van Gundy, as a defensive minded Coach? What say you, lads..???
lol "way back to his days as an assistant coach in Boston"
So, what, like 70 games ago? Sorry, just thought it was funny.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
Does Korver not play?
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Mar 22, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I have seen Korver playing. Don't know why you'd ask me though.
I didn’t say anything about Korver…
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
It was a general question as to what kind of timeshare at SG is there
Dont get all weird
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Mar 22, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
not getting weird, just confused.
"I never look at the points," Howard said. "Rebounds and blocks are what win games for me."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
The Bulls have a lot of different lineup options they can use because of their strong bench
Brewer can play either the two or three, so that gives the Bulls a lot of flexibility in their lineup choices.
Korver is in there a lot as SG with Rose the PG when Bogans goes to the bench, and other times they use C.J. Watson at the point with Korver as SG with Brewer as the SF.
Korver averages 20 1/2 minutes a game, and Brewer 22 1/2.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 23, 2011 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
It was a weird question.
"(Dwight) Howard averages 23 points and 14 rebounds per game and is the defensive basketball equivalent of a guy carrying a bazooka during laser tag. No one wants to play with that kid."-Matt Moore
I would give Coach Van Gundy the slight edge right now
…simply because of all the experience he has as a head coach and the fact that he has coached so many playoff series, including an NBA Finals.
Even though this is Thibodeau’s first year as head coach, he’s quickly making a name for himself as a defensive genius because the Bulls are an elite defense on so many levels; it may not take him very long to overtake SVG.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 23, 2011 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Its really not about Thibodea's "genuis"
Chicago has better defensive players in their rotation.
Rose- mediocre defender that pretty much saves his energy for the offensive end
Bogans/Brewer- Make their money on the defensive end and both have a certain toughness to their game
Deng- His length and athleticism bothers ALOT of players just ask Hedo
Boozer-Not much of a defender. He’s mostly needed for his offense in any case
Noah- A decent defensive center that has the energy and drive to succeed as a starter. I personally think he’s just a hyped up version of Anderson Varejao
The point is 4 of Chicago’s key rotational players are above average defenders.
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Mar 23, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
...and Rose is better than a "mediocre" defender
His defense has improved considerably this season from his first two seasons; Thibodeau has lauded Rose’s defensive prowess on numerous occasions this season.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 23, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I could care less what the coach has to say about the star player
From every game I watch of the Bulls I see Rose pretty much letting his guy run right past him with minimal effort. There is no reason physically why he cant be great defensively. Its just at this stage of his game he isnt interested
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Mar 23, 2011 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions
His defense has improved,
but he’s still mediocre. How anyone can consider that lazy defensive player MVP over Dwight Howard or Lebron James is beyond me.
by internet commenter on Mar 23, 2011 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying Rose is an elite defender
…because he’s not, but if you think he’s a “mediocre” defender and isn’t interested in playing defense, then you haven’t watched enough of their games to see the improvement he’s made on that end.
Rose has a defensive win share number of 4.1, which is more than respectable (especially for a guard), and he has outplayed Deron Williams twice and also Chris Paul, among others, in their head-to-head matchups this season.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 23, 2011 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I learned my lesson from the Magic past year
Regular season does not mean much. The Bulls will be judged come playoff time. When Rose wins a series it will be his first. Even the baby bulls before him won some series. Magic swept the Lakers but lost to them in the Finals. Cleveland won the series against Boston last year I believe. It is hard to judge based on one game scenarios. Paul and Williams have been elite for multiple years. This is Rose’s first year as elite. Let’s see him do it multiple years. Same with Westbrook.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
...agreed
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 23, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Last year went into the Celtics series and thought were just gonna smoke them.
Think the player thought that as well. I am not sure if any of these Bulls, aside from Deng maybe, have won on the road in the playoffs. Everyone one on the Magic has that experience. Boston has it. Miami has it. LA and SA have it. All I know is that the second round of the east will be amazing.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
The Bulls did upset the Celtics in Boston in Game 1 in the first round two years ago
…in that epic playoff series, but yeah, other than that, only Luol Deng has been a member of a Bulls’ team that won a playoff game on the road, back in the 2007 playoffs.
Carlos Boozer, Kyle Korver, and Ronnie Brewer bring their playoff experience from Utah, which should help a little, but I agree that the Bulls don’t have as much overall playoff experience as Boston, Miami, or the Magic.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 23, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep; that was his second year in the league
Deng had an awesome playoffs in the two rounds that season, averaging 22.2 ppg on 52.4% FG shooting and 8.7 rebounds per game.
He also played as a rookie in the 2006 playoffs against Miami as the Bulls were eliminated in six games.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 24, 2011 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Well at least someone has experince along with the Utah Guys on winning in the playoffs and closing teams out.
That is the quality that Rose is missing now. You can win games in the playoffs and on the road, but closing a team out is a much different animal. Also, I do not hold Rose’s defense against him as a player. He is fantastic, but I do hold it against him in the MVP vote. But it will be interesting to see how the Bulls do in the first round, if they get matched up with the Knicks. Closing the Knicks out in a game 6 at New York is not going to be easy if you have not closed a team before.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
If the Bulls have had a weak area this season, it's winning on the road
They’ve lost to some average to below-.500 teams on the road this season.
I’ll be interested in seeing how the Bulls respond in a tough situation late in the game on the road come playoff time.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 24, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If I am a Bulls fans this is the scenario that scares me:
Second round game 6 and down 3-2 going to the Amway Arena with 20k fans screaming and hollering. Then you have the scenario where Derrick Rose has just recieved the MVP award, and now Dwight Howard is sinking free throws in the 4th quarter and those 20k fans chanting MVP. How do they handle that? I like the Bulls, but I want to see them when the pressure is building and how they handle it.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I beg to differ
that we would even lose to the Cavs. Look I’m all for Howard getting the credit he deserves, but I’m kind of getting tired of the hyperbole regarding the rest of the team.
Eh, Rose has a very, very strong case.
I felt like Dwight had it locked up this year, alls we had to do was carry over the previous year’s success. We have slipped while Dwight has risen. I’m cool with Rose getting it.
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
by Eyriq the Red on Mar 22, 2011 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rose was incredible Tuesday night against Atlanta
…with a number of breathtaking drives to the hoop, sinking three point shots with the greatest of ease, and getting his teammates involved and only committing one turnover.
30 points on 11 of 20 shooting, 6 of 8 on threes, 10/1 assist/turnover ratio… a terrific stat line, and efficient, also.
If D12 doesn’t get the MVP this season, there’s no one else other than Rose who I would rather see get it.
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Mar 23, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
If all the NBA were eligible for a draft for the playoffs
would Derrick Rose be your top pick? If not, how can you argue he is the most valuable player?
by internet commenter on Mar 23, 2011 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The separation of value from best is a false dichotomy.
So long as you’re gauging best as the one who contributes most to victories, the most valuable player is by definition the best player in the game.
by internet commenter on Mar 23, 2011 3:43 AM EDT reply actions
The Kevin Love is the MVP because he is the leader in Win Shares
Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Mar 23, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
t's almost like a paradox...
If LeBron and Kevin Love traded places, and the T-Wolves were still 17-54, would LeBron be in the MVP conversation? Then consider that if LeBron and Kevin Love traded places, the T-Wolves would probably be much better than 17-54.
It’s a logical contradiction.
by Hoop Dreams 2 on Mar 23, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not a logic contradiction.
If you believe the T-Wolves would be better trading Love for Lebron then Lebron is logically the better player. Win shares does not properly valuate a players contributions.
by internet commenter on Mar 23, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Was speaking to the idea that Love is the MVP....
It’s a logical contradiction that the player who produces the highest win shares is on a team with the most losses in their conference.
If you generate the most wins of any player then your team would not be losing.
That’s the paradox.
by Hoop Dreams 2 on Mar 24, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Win shares is not a perfect or even good stat.
by internet commenter on Mar 23, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
What stat would you choose?
Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Mar 24, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shines a lot of light on this whole thing, doesn't it?
Dwight gets my vote
by Hoop Dreams 2 on Mar 24, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
So wait with less usage Dwight is still light years better??
That was sarcasm. When you look at the stats, when you watch the games I just don’t understand how it is even close.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I have to agree with this.
So many opinions about what MVP even means. If MVP doesn’t mean “Best Player in the League” then what does it mean?
by Hoop Dreams 2 on Mar 23, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Most Valuable Player
It even says it right there in the name.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 23, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The question is whether "valuable" is the same as "best."
For the record, I think “best” is different from “most talented.”
by Hoop Dreams 2 on Mar 23, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The question is defining "value"
And when you come up with a surefire way to categorically define something as malleable as that, you’ll be the first.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 24, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not that hard.
Call every team and offer Dwight Howard for the best player on that team’s roster.
Not a single GM says no*.
*Lebron is the only player that might get a no depending on the team’s situation, but given the unbalanced nature of the Heat’s roster, they say yes, too.
The plural of "anecdote" isn't "data."
The Heat would say yes and probably throw Bosh in just to sweeten the deal
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
OK, that's how YOU define value
That’s not how I define value.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 24, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You are right. Value is hard to define. That is why everybody is looking for a "construct" to be indicative of value.
While these constructs are all based on one’s perspective (relative to basketball), the true construct could be a “combination of a few constructs” put together. Does this make sense?
Valuable equals best.
Unless you’re redefining best or valuable.
by internet commenter on Mar 23, 2011 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Then what does the phrase "best value" mean?
I’m just playing. This debate could go on forever.
According to PER, the only two guys even in the conversation are LeBron and Dwight.
Not only are people debating how to define MVP, but they’re also debating what metrics to use to determine player value, and then how you can distinguish between team contribution to player performance (coaching, teammates, etc.) and player contribution to team performance.
There’s no correct answer if there are no hard, specific criteria.
by Hoop Dreams 2 on Mar 24, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Absolute nonsense
Value is an entirely subjective concept with no basis in reality. One person’s values can be entirely, completely different from another.
by eltharion_doa on Mar 24, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
If this discussion keeps up
all of OPP is going to have to read “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” before the playoffs.
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.
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