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No, Dwight Howard is Not "Properly Rated," Despite Bill Simmons' Claims

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Just in time for the 2011 NBA trade deadine, ESPN columnist Bill Simmons has published his annual NBA Trade Value list, ranking the top 50 tradeable assets in the league. He ranks Orlando Magic center Dwight Howard second on the list--meaning the Magic wouldn't trade him for the 48 players below him, but might for the one player ahead of him, the Miami Heat's LeBron James--and has some provocative comments about Orlando's franchise cornerstone.

Drawing on a concept from Chuck Klosterman, the pop-culture critic whose Sex, Drugs and Cocoa Puffs remains one of my favorite reads, Simmons contends Howard is "properly rated" in the same way "The Social Network, Albert Pujols, Rihanna" and a host of other things are. Simmons explains:

He's one of the best players in the league, but you'd never make the case that he's the best. He's one of the most valuable players in the league, but you'd never say he's most valuable. We don't take him for granted, and we don't think he's overrated.

And, in the line that prompted this post, which now nears 1800 words:

He's Dwight Howard: [...] someone who's very very very very very very good but not quite great.

"Not quite great." Lord. Where do I start?

I don't take issue with where Simmons places Howard on his list, and I agree with is assertion that "we're constantly underrating" James. Nonetheless, I can't get on board with the idea that Howard is "properly rated," even as the league's top center. No, I contend he's underrated.

Star-divide

Howard's brilliance at the defensive end, which has resulted in his winning the last two Defensive Player of the Year awards, hasn't surprised or rankled anyone who watches and understands the game closely. About this point there is little debate. Howard is the league's foremost defensive presence, although one can argue Boston Celtics forward Kevin Garnett has at least matched him on that end this year.

We should move on, then, to discuss Howard's work on offense, which not enough people properly appreciate, in my estimation. Howard keys everything the Magic do on that side of the ball; spreading the floor with four three-point shooters wouldn't matter a bit were it not for the threat of Howard having his way inside. Few players in the league can handle him in single-coverage, and even the ones who once had his number find it slipping.

Take the Celtics' Kendrick Perkins, for instance. Stout, physical, and intelligent, Perkins used to be able to uproot Howard from the block and leverage him out two or three feet, forcing him to work further away from the basket than he's accustomed to and giving his help defenders plenty of room and time to bother Orlando's behemoth. In the first and third games of the 2010 Eastern Conference Finals, Perkins played a huge role in limited Howard to a combined 20 points on 6-of-20 shooting from the field.

In the final three games of that series, in which Orlando delayed elimination twice, Howard scored 81 points on 31-of-48 shooting from the floor. In their next meeting, which took place on Super Bowl Sunday, Howard scored 28 on 10-of-20 from the floor in a Celtics vitory.

What about the Los Angeles Lakers' decorated duo of Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol? They held Howard to just 15.4 points per game, on 48.8 percent shooting, in the 2009 NBA Finals as L.A. coasted to a 4-1 series win. In the regular season that year, Howard averaged 20.6 points on 57.2 percent shooting, so the Bynum/Gasol pairing indeed limited him to well below his established offensive capabilities.

In three regular-meetings since those Finals, though, Howard has torched the Lakers for 70 points in 114 minutes, shooting 65.9 percent from the field. Indeed, the players who used to stymie Howard now cannot stop him.

The same goes for the rest of the league. This season, Howard has ended 27.2 percent of Orlando's possessions via either a shot attempt, free throw attempt, or turnover; he's doing so with a True Shooting mark of 61.1 percent. In the last five seasons, only Amar'e Stoudemire, Manu Ginobili, and Dirk Nowitzki have matched those benchmarks. Notably, none of those three players can claim the same sort of defensive impact Howard makes.

There's a tendency in the media, I think, not to take Howard seriously on the offensive end. True, his low-post moves used to be pretty robotic and elementary, and he continues to rankle a lot of hoops observers with his continued struggles at the foul line; his 58.4 percent mark from there would stand as the worst of his career if the season ended today.

But a lot of the criticism for his offense is simply unwarranted, unfair, or outdated. There's room for improve even more with his back to the basket, sure. He'd be the first person to tell you as much. But I come back to a point Magic television color analyst Matt Guokas often makes: when we say Howard's post game is unrefined, to whom are we comparing him? Consider all the league's back-to-basket players. Now try naming more than, say, three who have better post skills.

A look at Synergy Sports Technology data supports this idea. Here are some facts:

  • Howard ends a possession via post-up 12.7 times per game. This figure easily leads the league among players who have posted up at least 200 times, of whom there are 23; LaMarcus Aldridge, at 9.5 post-ups per game, ranks second. Indeed, the distance between Howard and the second-ranked Aldridge is greater than the distance between Aldridge and the the 10th-ranked Darko Milicic.

  • At 0.9152 points per post-up, Howard ranks eighth in the league in efficiency.

  • Howard's post-ups produce scores 49.3 percent of the time, fourth in the league.

  • Howard's average of 12.7 post-ups per game is the highest in the league since the 2006/07 season, when Yao Ming (a whopping 18.3) and Shaquille O'Neal (14.1) topped that number. Yao's post-up efficiency (0.9689 points per possession) throttles Howard's, but O'Neal's figure (0.9205) isn't too far removed.

In essence, Howard ranks as the most efficient, high-volume, back-to-basket player in five seasons, when Yao and O'Neal topped them in their prime and just-past-prime years. Further, those two played in only 48 and 40 games, respectively, that season.

Based on these data, I believe it's fair to conclude Howard is enjoying the best offensive season of any duraable back-to-basket player in recent NBA history. This is in addition to his dominance as a one-on-one and help defender, and as a rebounder.

Some aspects of his offense are properly rated. He's a bit too turnover prone, particularly when he brings the ball low after a rebound or on a drive to the basket, to say nothing of his numerous, needless offensive fouls for shoving. He ought to shoot free-throws more accurately than he does, as I reject the belief that he's simply hopeless at the line, doomed to shoot in the high-fifties every season.

But as far as everything else goes? We have not "properly rated" Howard's offense. We have severely, woefully, shamefully underrated it.

With that said, I think Simmons is fair to rate Howard behind James. Most sane fans would do the same, to to claim Howard is "underrated," and not "properly rated," is, on some level, tantamount to saying Howard should top Simmons' list.

That's not what I'm getting at, though, because I agree with Simmons that James is terribly underrated despite the exposure the media give him, in addition to the exposure he brings upon himself.

My point is that James and Howard are so far away from the proverbial field, at least in terms of affecting basketball games, that no one really stands a chance of challenging them. Look at players three through five on Simmons' list.

  • Kevin Durant scores a ton, is a terrific teammate by any account, and is emerging as a rebounder. Yet he does not shoot the three-pointer well, and has yet to make the sort of defensive impact we might expect from a player with his considerable gifts.

  • Criticizing Derrick Rose, who has what John Hollinger has termed a huge "Fanboy Army," will automatically earn me at least three unkind emails; thankfully, Bethlehem Shoals expressed a lot of problems I happen to have with the young point guard in a brilliant essay for GQ. The dude shares a backcourt with Keith Bogans and hasn't had his frontcourt combination of Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah together for even 10 games yet, but the Bulls have essentially wrapped up no worse than the East's third playoff series due to his fantastic play. He's made strides defensively, has a respectable (36.2 percent) three-pointer, and scores a point for every 90 seconds he's on the court.

    Still, he can't, by the very nature of his position, affect as many possessions defensively as Howard can. And Howard, despite his positional limits--as a center, he can't bring the ball up and pass it to himself, remember--opens up the Magic's offense in ways that at least approach Rose's playmaking.

  • And Blake Griffin? He's for real, clearly, averaging 22.8 points, 12.6 rebounds, and 3.5 assists as a 21-year-old. Fewer players get so good so quickly, and he's on a Hall-of-Fame pace. No question about it.

    And yet he blocks a shot once every two games. He has yet to establish himself as a defender on Howard's level. He probably has it in him to do so, and if he ever gets that aspect of his game together, he'll join James and Howard in the ranks of the league's wrecking balls. Until then, he's slightly less powerful than those two.

We ought to be able to agree, like most reasonable folks, that James and Howard are, in some order, the league's top two players, and that it's not close. My hope here is that we've at least got a better appreciation for how truly great Howard is, particularly as a low-post scorer.

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Yak

Simmons is a clown, Dwight is arguably the MVP RIGHT NOW, how is averaging 23/14 while being the best defender in the league not great? what a freaking joke he’s been a long time Durant Jocker when Durant is the MOST one dimensional player in the league(can score, does nothing else)

by Robert Thomas on Feb 18, 2011 1:06 AM EST reply actions  

Simmons is a boston homer, it's not even funny how homeristic he is.

People stop this dance, Say damn this persons fascinatin'
We blowin' dro up in the air, You smell it?
That's the fragrance, I got the focus, got the heart
And I got the patience

by 4QB on Feb 18, 2011 1:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Durant...

is an excellent scorer and decent rebounder but my beef with him being the leader of the MVP race is that he plays with another guy who could be considered a superstar in his own right. Dwight plays with a fading all-star (Jameer), a few good players who don’t have the potential to be great (Bass, JJ, Ryno), has-beens and never-wases (Gil, J-Rich, Turk, Q-Rich, Ducon, Allen), and a couple of guys who probably won’t amount to much (Clark, Orton). Take Durant off the the Thunder and I bet Russell Westbrook can still carry them to at least 40 wins, even in the stacked West. Take Dwight off the Magic and we’re about as bad as the Raptors (maybe Cavs) in the top heavy East where everyone is mediocre or awful.

by GameManager on Feb 19, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

No, Durant is carrying that team.

Westbrook, with his erratic playmaking and ultra-inefficient scoring, is not an asset. He’s something Durant (and the rest of the Thunder) have to overcome. (At least on offense. He’s valuable on D, I’ll give him that.) If you put a less gifted but smarter PG on that team, even someone like Jameer, they’d be a legit contender.

As for Rose, the Bulls are winning because their defense is great. Their offense is mediocre, and Rose’s inefficient scoring and poor court vision are a big part of that. He’s not a big part of their D, though.

As for Cleveland, don’t push it. There are at least 2-3 Magic players who would be the best guy on the Cavs, and even aside from that, the Magic are just a smarter team than the likes of Cleveland and Toronto. (Varejao excepted.) Not saying they’d be a playoff team without Dwight, but they’d find a way to steal 30 or so wins. (Maybe more if the absence of Dwight meant they kept Gortat.)

Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.

by 3.3seconds on Feb 21, 2011 3:49 AM EST up reply actions  

"Ultra inefficient scoring"?

His .539 TS% is all of 0.05% lower than Derrick Rose, 0.09% behind Blake Griffin and 0.06% above alleged Orlando Magic target Zach Randolph.

If that’s “ultra inefficient scoring”, Nelson and Turkoglu are in big trouble – they both have lower TS% than Westbrook.

by eltharion_doa on Feb 21, 2011 5:07 AM EST up reply actions  

This, also even if RWO doesn't shoot threes at a modest rate, he makes up for it with his rebounding skills.

People stop this dance, Say damn this persons fascinatin'
We blowin' dro up in the air, You smell it?
That's the fragrance, I got the focus, got the heart
And I got the patience

by 4QB on Feb 21, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

So glad I stayed up to read this.

Reckidy Rec’d.

http://borntohustleroses.blogspot.com/

by fwedo on Feb 18, 2011 1:11 AM EST reply actions  

lol

Screw Bill Simmons. I have never liked him and this just made my distaste for him even stronger.

Sons of Plunder

by Gatorbuc15 on Feb 18, 2011 1:18 AM EST reply actions  

Great stuff ED

I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think most execs and coaches understand just how dominant he is on both ends, I think it’s the people who don’t watch him every minute of every game that just don’t get it. Coaches break down film on him like there’s no tomorrow, praying to find a weakness. Does he spin a certain way when posting up from a particular spot on the floor or when does he like to go to certain pet moves? That’s what keeps NBA coaches up at night.

Guys that watch Howard only in the playoffs or on SportsCenter though, will continue to under-rate him. At least until he wins a title.

Oh and just throwing my two cents out there, yes Bill Simmons is a homer, he admits it himself freely. If you all actually took the time to read his stuff however, you’d know he does know a little about what he’s writing about. And I’m not just talking about this article.

Read his book – all of it – and then tell me what you think. Simmons raved about Howard in it. He writes about how incredibly talented he already is and when it’s time for his next “Book of Basketball Vol. 2” Dwight will most assuredly be moving up his Pyramid quickly.

To just dismiss Simmons as a homer and a blowhard, or whatever name you’d like to call him, you are really only doing so because you yourself are a homer and are upset about what he wrote in regards to our own hometown hero. If he wrote that Dwight was the least tradeable player in the league (like he did last year, actually), you wouldn’t be calling him names, you’d be praising him for saying good things about Dwight.

"But I'm still down with OPP."

http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3

http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud

by JeffShann3 on Feb 18, 2011 2:10 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

my bad, you're right.

"But I'm still down with OPP."

http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3

http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud

by JeffShann3 on Feb 18, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

What is there to say about Dwight?

We all know he’s one of the best in the league and a great player.

Simmons might not, but he’s wrong.

by eltharion_doa on Feb 18, 2011 2:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Rec

You have made crystal clear WHY Dwight Howard right now, should be the NBA Most Valuable Player: No one, with possible exception of James, DOMINATES BOTH SIDES of the court… and to the extend that he does, than Him!

Sure, Rose SHOULD be in any discussion… but that’s it; he should NOT be any kind of favorite: Rose simply does NOT dominate BOTH sides, defensive AND offensive in the order of magnitude, that Howard does!!!

I’m saving your post for future reference… many Thanks, Evan!

by manny55 on Feb 18, 2011 4:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Your statements are all spot on.

There’s really nothing to discuss because you’ve laid all the evidence bare for the world to see. You’re also preaching to the choir, here.

I just wonder how many verys it takes before you cross over into great. There has to be some kind of limit, and I think Simmons far exceeded it.

by Hoop Dreams 2 on Feb 18, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

According to Simmons, there would only be one great player in the NBA today. I wonder how many previous players he would call great.

He does put Dwight as number two in the league and has more very’s then anyone else.

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Feb 18, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Dwight gets a university essay by Simmons, Lebron gets a little tweet from him.

Kinda pissed me off.

But hey, at least Dwight’s getting legit recognition now, even if some of it does seem like the critics are reluctant. They’re a bit slow to warm to Dwight as MVP, but Rose is getting MVP fans like Justin Bieber.

What’s amazing to look back on is that almost every single criticism about his game (bar the free throws), in the past 2-3 years he has improved. Post-up moves, avoiding foul trouble, jump shot, being an all-round force, being a vocal leader in the team.

by RL Magic on Feb 18, 2011 2:30 AM EST reply actions  

I think Chris Paul's underrated, MVP wise

Although, given his knee issues, his trade value is probably pretty fair in Simmons’ column. I think Paul’s going to find himself in Brandon Roy’s situation, health wise, before is fair for him or for NBA fans.

On another note about that column, he’s got Rashard Lewis’ contract value wrong – it’s “only” 3 years and $63m left, although whether that would actually affect Lewis’ ranking as the second worst contract in the league, I don’t know.

by eltharion_doa on Feb 18, 2011 2:30 AM EST reply actions  

We have 3 of the worst contracts in the NBA!

And we traded away the 2nd worst for the absolute worst. Good times!

To borrow a Bill-Simmons-ism, excuse me while I chew on a corrosive battery.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 18, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

he was 4th last season. So I doubt it because he's playing worse now.

"But I'm still down with OPP."

http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3

http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud

by JeffShann3 on Feb 18, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Recommended

As much as Derrick Rose is probably my favorite pro athlete to watch in any sport, and who has done so much for the Bulls this season, Dwight Howard gets my MVP vote.

By the way, I read the essay from Bethlehem Shoals about Rose, and actually it had many more positive things to say about him than negative things, some of which I didn’t agree with (like saying that Rose has an unwillingness to drive to the hoop to draw contact, which I think is unwarranted).

I had to chuckle when he called Rose a “joyless, vacant, killing machine.”

But this is certainly about Howard and how much he means to the Orlando Magic offensively and defensively.

Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Feb 18, 2011 4:52 AM EST reply actions  

I think that comment, about his unwillingness to take contact, was probably true of Rose before this season

And, in fact, probably even through December. But someone, I forget who, noted that Rose is taking a lot more contact in the new year. Maybe he read all the articles criticising him.

by eltharion_doa on Feb 18, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I think when Simmons says "good not great"

he’s referring to comparing Dwight to those in the past such as Shaq. He’s defining greatness based on the history of basketball and not the recent years of the league.

But while Simmons may properly rate Dwight in his own mind, I don’t think the average basketball fan and sports commentator does. I think very few people outside of Orlando would make the contention that Dwight is the 2nd best or best player in the league. Thus, he is genuinely underrated. The funny thing is, Simmons says “Think about it, have you gotten into any debates about Dwight Howard lately?” And the answer is yes. I’m constantly getting into debates with other hoops fans about Dwight Howard.

Seriously, some people go so far as to say that he’s garbage. Not a top 5 player. Not a top 10 player. But garbage. That’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard. Honestly, there’s something that bothers me in the NBA. It’s the fact that we devalue our players so much. Think about how many articles you’ve read about how Dwight, LeBron, Kobe, Dwyane, etc. are all actually not as good as you think they are. These are amazing basketball players who do amazing things and I think we don’t appreciate it sometimes. But nobody more than Dwight gets this constant second-guessing of his abilities.

I’m being fully honest right now. If the Miami Heat came to us and said straight-up LeBron for Dwight, I wouldn’t take it. Maybe I’m a homer. Sue me. But I think when you couple all of the things he does on both ends of the court, you can’t replace Dwight Howard even with LeBron James.

The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy

by cgsimone on Feb 18, 2011 7:51 AM EST reply actions  

Exactly.

I actually think the East winner, as long as they survive from the second round on, should beat the West team. The East should actually dominate for awhile. Of course that is contingent on Dwight staying here in O-Town.

Roll Bass and War Ryno for me

by Mateo9399 on Feb 18, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

As far as Rose for MVP

Let’s not be stupid, big market and scores a ton. Record is inflated due to the crappy division they are in. Yes I know they have wins over elite teams. But it must be nice to have to play Milwaukee, Indiana, Detroit or Cleveland instead of Miami, Atlanta, Charlotte Or even the John Walls 16 times a season. Don’t kid yourselves. But seriously, Dwight would be my MVP because his second best player comes off the bench(Arenas………..just kidding Ryan Anderson). LeBron has Bosh and Wade. Dwight has Bass and Anderson(and yes while there may be more “important” players than those two, they have been the next best players after Dwight). Dwight literally affects almost every single possession on the court. And when the Magic do not feed him, they start to get stagnant. It is clearly LeBum Le Chicken and Superman and it is not even close.

Roll Bass and War Ryno for me

by Mateo9399 on Feb 18, 2011 7:51 AM EST reply actions  

I think

if the Magic would get him the ball more (like the lakers did shaq in LA) he would get the respect he deserves… But I will say this in the LA game last week and in the Wizard game on Wed. the Magic did focus on Dwight all game long… and we see where that got them W’s…… Its something the Magic must do game in and game out from now on, and even when Dwights shots arent falling they must keep feeding him, I think if they do that consistently for the rest of the season we will win a lot of games and reemerge in the Title race……

by MagicMichael on Feb 18, 2011 9:03 AM EST reply actions  

We live and die by Dwight and 3. Always have.

Not sure where the misconnception that we only shoot 3’s is. Yes we take a lot of 3’s. But we have always been Dwight and 3’s.

Roll Bass and War Ryno for me

by Mateo9399 on Feb 18, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes but

That is the philosphy of the Magic but… how often do we go away from Dwight in the Second half of games and guys like Nelson and Hedo and J-Rich just start taking Jumpers one to two passes into the shot clock… Im saying the Magic need to stop that and make a concerted effort to get Dwight involved EVERY TIME down the floor, especially in the 4th quarter and when we get down by 10 pts or more… when we panic and start jacking jumpers from all over when we get down a bit it causes Dwight to lose his effectivness

by MagicMichael on Feb 18, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

That is on the players.

I agree yes, sometimes they take quick 3’s, but still the Magic Philosphy is Dwight and 3’s

Roll Bass and War Ryno for me

by Mateo9399 on Feb 18, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, people mistake poor execution for poor strategy.

Stan, obviously, is more than willing to admit when he screws up a strategy, as he did against the Hornets recently. The coaches constantly talk about getting the ball to Dwight though, whether it’s pre-game, post-game, or even during the game in interviews.

For the last time, people: Our strategy is to get Dwight the ball and take open three’s.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 18, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

If you look at the last two wins Dwight’s got a lot of touches which made him play better on defense and energized the team… Both games were easy victories… That is our secret to success.. what Im saying is I think the players are starting to realize that and are looking for Dwight a lot more… Im just saying we are not gonna go far in the playoffs unless the players are 100% committed to looking for Dwight first then taking shots..

by MagicMichael on Feb 18, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Most definitely.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 18, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

We won those games because our defense was outstanding, not because Dwight was the focal point of the offense.

Those are some of the only games we’ve won where Dwight is basically the only force on offense. Usually we end up losing the games where he scored 30+ and everyone else is struggling.

I am all for utilizing him (even more) in the offense though.

by MagicMark on Feb 18, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

That's also on SVG

He tends to deny Howard the Ball in the 4th Quarter.

by REP96st on Feb 18, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, man, I can't believe every time that SVG walks the ball up the court and doesn't give Howard an entry pass.

You really just can’t trust SVG with the ball. But at least he doesn’t wear basketball short shorts…

Otis Smith, what you've just done is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard of. At no point in your rambling, incoherent trades were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this blog is now dumber for having witnessed it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

by MoveThoseChains on Feb 18, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Your level of insight into Van Gundy is amazing (sarcasm).

I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.

by Redfield on Feb 18, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

And by "panic" you mean "make the smart move"?

An open three is a good shot. Getting the ball to Dwight can also be good, but an open three is a good shot.

Moreover, if you run the ball into Dwight every time, they guard Dwight more tightly, which means he frequently doesn’t get position. High-percentage shots don’t result, but turnovers do.

And if Dwight has to go into the lane too many times, he takes a beating, gets exhausted, and runs the risk of injury.

And that’s not even taking offensive fouls into account.

(Moreover, when the Magic are down by a wide margin, getting the ball to Dwight is not necessarily a smart play, because they can just foul him.

Getting 1.18 points off a possession, as you do when Dwight (a 59% shooter) goes to the line, is better than the league average. If they hack Dwight indefinitely, the Magic will be more efficient than the other team. But it’s not ENOUGH more efficient to make up a deficit.

It’s great when the Magic are trying to maintain a lead. But when they’re behind, they really need to do plays that come a little further out in terms of points per possession. Which is to say, either Dwight gets so far inside/open that the opposing team can’t necessarily foul him to keep him from scoring, or find someone else for an open shot.)

Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.

by 3.3seconds on Feb 21, 2011 3:59 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Dwight is a beast, and he's made that second leap this year.

That alone gives us a chance in the playoffs, even if I do not like the roster around him currently. He has reached LeBron territory where he alone can make you a contender. If that’s not “great”, I don’t know what is.

As far as Rose for MVP, I reiterate the fact that I don’t understand the backlash. What he’s done is really great so far (including that ridonkulous 42-8-5 on 18/28 shooting and only 1 TO against the Spurs), and people look at the roster around him and go, “Man, he’s really carried this team!” I think he’s had less around him to work with than Dwight has for the most part this year, and his team is more successful.

That said, I think the thing that people truly are underestimating in regards to Chicago’s success is coaching. Thibodeau, in my mind, has to be the frontrunner for Coach of the Year so far. He has turned that team to one of the best defensive teams in the league, and that is without his best defender (Noah) and with his two best players previously thought to be allergic to the concept of D (Rose and Boozer). Comparing this team to the hot mess that was the Bulls under Del Negro in terms of execution and defense is startling.

In summary, Rose has been great this year and merits MVP consideration. However, Thibodeau merits just as much talk when speaking of the Bulls’ rise to an elite team this year. The scary thought? Both guys are known to raise their performances in the playoffs.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 18, 2011 10:06 AM EST reply actions  

There is a difference between merits

And what TV people are saying. Obviously he is valuable to the Bulls. And yes I know the Noah and Boozer have only played 10 games together. But Rose has always had at least one of them, and he plays in the weakest division in Basketball. Literally zero competition. Dwight and LeBron play in at worst, the second hardest division in the NBA. I am not trying to hate on Rose. Or the Bulls. But to me it is only because of the market they play in, they get so MUCH love. It is almost like when OKC was getting so much love last year. And Kevin Durant is better than LeBron, and blah blah blah. Durant has peaked. Yes it is a great peak, but he is what he is. An elite scorer. That is pretty much it. Derrick Rose will probably be what he is this season for the rest of his career. Again great. But nobody is in the class of LeBron and Dwight. In fact if Paul were healthy he would be the only person who would come close. Wade is getting older. Still great. But if everyone is healthy and you were to draft players, you would debate about LeBron or Dwight first and second, then Paul would be next then figure out after that. To me, these three guys are so underrated, while still being acknowledged as elite players. Media always gets caught up with the new thing.

Roll Bass and War Ryno for me

by Mateo9399 on Feb 18, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, media certainly plays a part, especially ignorant media.

However, that shouldn’t take away from what Rose is doing right now. In February, he’s averaging almost 28 and 9 assists on 50% from the field and 91% from the line (his blemish, as has been the case this season, has been TO’s). He’s doing this with Kurt Thomas and Keith Bogans starting next to him. Using the fact he’s had Noah or Boozer for every game doesn’t mean anything… LeBron has had Bosh and Wade for much more time, Kobe has had Pau and Odom, KG has had Pierce and Ray and Rondo. As Mike from Illinois said in another thread, Rose has played three of the top PG’s in the NBA in the last 4 games, and has thoroughly outplayed each of them, all in victories for his team (and two of them were road games). And what division the Bulls are in doesn’t matter, since you still play others in your conference 3-4 times a year. Their SOS is almost identical to ours and Boston’s (all between .491 and .494), while considerably higher than Miami’s at .477.

I’m not saying here that Rose should be the MVP favorite, but his market status does not change the fact that he should be in the discussion, just like Durant’s did not matter as he finished 2nd last year in the “ginormous” OKC market. Speaking of Durant, he has not peaked at 22 years old. C’mon now. Rose has not peaked at 22 years old, not after he dramatically improved his jumper in the off-season and saw his 3PT% rise from 26 to 36.

LeBron, Dwight, and Paul are underrated continuously, yes. But that has more to do with just general ignorance of basketball than the markets they play in.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 18, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Peaked I mean as they won't radically change from here on out for the rest of their career.

Durant will never be as good as LeBron. He just does not pass as good. His 3-Point% can improve, but that is not drastically changing your game. He is scorer. I don’t think he will ever become an all around game player. That is what I mean. Derrick Rose will probably be around the same numbers as well. They might jump out more with more attempts or a shooting a better %, but this what he is. Now don’t take it as in they are not studs. What they are, are studs. Elite sure ballot HOF’s as long as they stay healthy. LeBron has been the same player for about 5 years now. He will never have a post game, because he never works on one. Maybe when he is in his 30’s he will develop one because he can’t jump as high, but he is what he is as of right now. Just like Dwight. This season is what Dwight should be for the rest of his season. Again barring his usage right jumping up and him making free throws, he is gonna be somewhere around 20-22 ppg and 13-15 ppg. 2-3 blks. etc. etc. Don’t take it as in I am downsizing these guys. Durant will score till he retires. Rose will score til he retires. But neither, if you were to take each of them at their peaks, will be better than Dwight and LeBron at their peaks. That is what I mean.

Roll Bass and War Ryno for me

by Mateo9399 on Feb 18, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I appreciate the positive things you said about Rose, Mateo

I think we can all agree that Rose is a great player; it’s just a matter of to what degree and if he can be even better in the future. Everyone has their reasoning and opinions, which I generally respect, so I’ll leave it at that.

Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Feb 18, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

We can agree Rose is a very very very very very good but not quite great.

If LeBron is great and Howard is not, then no one other than LeBran is great

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Feb 18, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, how many very's equal great? Is there a chart somewhere for this?

I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.

by Redfield on Feb 18, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Greatest = MJ
Greater = Magic-Bird
Great = LeBran
6 very’s = D12
5 very’s + J-Rose
4 very’s = J-Johnson
3 very’s = J-Smoove
2 Very’s = G-Hill
Very = J-Rich
Good = JJ

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Feb 19, 2011 7:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Add

not very = C-Duh

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Feb 19, 2011 7:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Jalen Rose was 5 very's good at one point?

I guess he was on a Finals team once…

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 19, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

D-Rose typo is correct.

got carried away with with the J’s

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Feb 19, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

In all fairness...

…Rose is taking slow steps toward relevance.

He’s got a mediocre three now, as opposed to a horrible three.

He’s still taking more than three times as many FGs as FTs, but it used to be four times as many.

His TS% has creeped up from 51.6% as a rookie to 53.2% last year… now it’s at 54.4%. Just about the league average.

He’s become a guy you can win with, rather than a guy who’s going to drag you down. I’ll give him credit for that.

He’s still not the main reason the Bulls are winning. That’s still their team defense. But I don’t think his play is an obstacle to overcome any more.

And who knows? Maybe he’ll keep improving, maybe he’ll become the player he should be. The fact that he’s made a lot of his gains by focusing on more efficient TYPES of shots this year is a good sign… it shows he, or Chicago’s management, is looking at him in terms of overall efficiency. And if he can think about his game that way, he has the capacity to get better.

Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.

by 3.3seconds on Feb 21, 2011 4:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Recommended, slick

I agree with every sentence you wrote.

Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Feb 18, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't agree that Rose has got less around him

Boozer > Anderson/Bass
Deng = Turk
Noah > Nelson (comparing them because they play the opposite position to Dwight and Rose respectively)
Bogans < Richardson

The Magic probably have a lot more depth, but Dwight’s the only elite player in the Magic. Since the trades, he’s the only above average starter, frankly. Boozer in any other year is an all star, Deng and Noah are elite defenders…the Magic don’t have that punch.

by eltharion_doa on Feb 18, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Having said that

My MVP ballot, if I had one, would read Dwight, Rose, Paul, LeBron, Durant, so I obviously still rate Rose pretty highly.

by eltharion_doa on Feb 18, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Deng does deserve credit for his contributions to the Bulls this season

He’s having a solid year offensively (17.6 ppg on 54.3% TS) and an outstanding year defensively while averaging a career-high 39.1 minutes a game.

Thibodeau has constantly praised Deng this season for what he has brought to the Bulls on both offense and defense.

Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Feb 18, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Deng

I think he’s as important to the Bulls defensively as Turk is to the Magic offensively, which is why I roughly squared them off.

by eltharion_doa on Feb 19, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Can he stay healthy... that's the question

He’s had injury problems in previous years, but hasn’t yet this season even with playing so many minutes.

He needs to remain healthy in order for the Bulls to make a deep playoff run, even with Rose playing at such a high level.

Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Feb 20, 2011 2:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Pau Gasol is the best PF in the league.

Rondo, Pierce And KG are all top 5 at their position.

Roll Bass and War Ryno for me

by Mateo9399 on Feb 18, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say Odom is better than our 2nd best player.

He’s averaging 15 and 9 with a 60 TS%. He’s also capable of handling the ball as well as Hedo, although he’s not quite the passer Hedo is.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 19, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Gasol's elite

Odom’s a 6th man candidate. Bynum, if fit, would be an All Star lock (now Yao’s gone).

by eltharion_doa on Feb 19, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Only because of those archaic rules about Centers.

There are at least 4-5 power forwards in the West clearly better than Bynum.

Bass and sharks are BOTH fish.

by 3.3seconds on Feb 21, 2011 4:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Last time I checked

You had to start five men in the NBA, and didn’t get to play 4 on 4 just because there aren’t any good players in a particular position.

Andrew Bynum, if fit, is one of the top five centers in the NBA. Who cares if there are forwards better than him?

by eltharion_doa on Feb 21, 2011 5:12 AM EST up reply actions  

It drives me crazy.

Every time I see MVP discussion, they don’t even mention Dwight. What more could they possibly want? Nobody plays defense like him, it isn’t even close. I’ve seen him discourage a shot at one side of the half-court, make it to the other side in time to discourage the next one, and then get to the rim in time to alter a third, all in one play.

On offense, he’s better than ever. Putting up 30 and 10 is starting to feel like business as usual for him. Again, what more could they want?

by Tim333 on Feb 18, 2011 11:18 AM EST reply actions  

I'm guessing...

For him to be playing in LA. When you are playing as well as he is and still can’t crack the MVP discussion, you gotta start thinking about markets and how asinine it is that they play such a huge role in the perception of greatness. I’d be lying if I said it hasn’t negatively affected my interest level in what was once my favorite sport over the last couple seasons.

by Snyde on Feb 18, 2011 12:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Very nicely done Evan

Your command statistical analysis is continuously impressive.

For a more simplistic measure take a look at the top 20 scorers in the NBA this season and then take note of field goal percentages. I know it is somewhat of a specious method, but the disparity is staggering.

by Satch30 on Feb 18, 2011 11:58 AM EST reply actions  

Rec'd. Excellent write-up

The mixture of statistical tools and qualitative analyses is superb.

by Matt1325 on Feb 18, 2011 12:23 PM EST reply actions  

I must say that Dwight's game has made leaps and bounds this season

I was still a bit skeptical at the beginning of the season, but through out 2011, Dwight has been an absolute beast on the offensive end, and it’s becoming consistent enough where I believe he will finally put the nay-sayers to rest. I still don’t think Dwights mental toughness has come anywhere near it’s peak, and once it does, Dwight will be the freakiest dominant player in the NBA, but until then, I still see him as a developing FREAK of NATURE. However Simmons wants to look at it, I would rather have Dwight than Lebron any day of the week.

by MasterofMagic on Feb 18, 2011 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

You have to look at the way he's scoring the points now though

i didn’t check the books, but if memory serves me correctly, dwight has led the league in dunks the past few years and this year he has fallen back a few spots which means he’s finishing with better confidence. The dude is only 25, when his mind completely matures at like 28 or so, he will straight own everyone. He’s slowly gaining the edge over everyone who once had his number like Evan said.

by MasterofMagic on Feb 18, 2011 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

Does anyone think it is significant that Dwight is averaging 2.3 ppg with Vince gone?

The up side of the dearly departed VC is that D12 is the sole focus of the offense and every one else is secondary. In the last 20 games Dwight is averaging 4.2 ppg more than before Dec 18.

The new Magic line up is Dwight centric, for better or worse.

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Feb 18, 2011 6:57 PM EST reply actions  

I'm not sure the credit is due to VC

as much as it may be to Hedo who is able to make entry passes the rest of our squad struggles mightily with. Also GA is helping with Dwight’s numbers. You’d like to see the turnovers go down but the fact that he’s been able to get Dwight easy buckets compared to Duhon not getting anything for Dwight has seemingly helped his PPG and efficiency as well.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody" -svg

by Warlando on Feb 18, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's a bad sign when...

… your small forward and backup point guard are the only players who are able to get Dwight easy buckets and ally oops. Nelson would rank as 4th best in those categories behind Turk, Gil and J.J.
Imagine if those 3 guys were in the starting lineup with Dwight? They’d be racking up the assists and Dwight would start racking up the oops the way he is supposed to.
Could it be that Nelson is holding Dwight down? I’d like to think so. But I love a traditional, classic point guard who pushes the pace, drives and dishes, and rarely calls his own number.
Do you think Mark Price or John Stockton are available?

Crushing weaker minds since 1978
Over 1 million served.

by Matty B on Feb 18, 2011 11:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Nelson would rank 4th?

That’s absolutely wrong. Nelson gets the ball to Dwight way more than Arenas or Redick.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 19, 2011 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

So why would it matter if he is the 4th best player on a play they only run once or maybe twice per game?

Nelson runs quite a few pick and rolls with Dwight, and it usually ends up with Nelson shooting a layup or passing it off to Dwight, or an open shot for someone on the perimeter. Your fascination with Nelson hate is irrational.

by MagicMark on Feb 19, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Carter averaged 12.1 shot attempts per game this season with the Magic before he was traded

…while Jason Richardson is averaging 11.8 shot attempts per game since he has been with the Magic, a negligible difference in shot attempts between the two.

I’m more inclined to agree with Warlando.

Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC Conference runners-up
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Feb 18, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent read

Dwight always gets snubbed for MVP Talks. I thought it should’ve been a two-horse race last season with Dwight & LeBron and again this season (yet Dwight somehow finished 4th in the voting). If the league isn’t going to take defense into consideration they should just drop “Valuable” from the title. Last season Howard led the NBA in rebounds, blocks & fg%. This season he’s top 2 in rebounding, top 3 in FG% (with an injured Okafor holding the 2 spot), top 5 in blocks and #11 in points per game. Defensively I think the Magic have ranked in the top 5 the past 3-4 season’s (finishing #1 in 2 of those 3 seasons) and with significant roster changes each season.

Look what he does to everyones defensive ratings. J. Richardson, Arenas, Hedo, RA & Clark have posted ratings 7+ points better than their ratings with their previous teams. Rashard is 6 points worse, Pietrus 7, Carter 8 & Gortat 8. Some credit goes to the system but Dwight is the one who makes the system possible, not the other way around. His defensive impact is unparalleled.

Another thing that never gets considered is the surrounding talent amoungst the candidates. Name me a better #2 on the Magic than on any of the other title-contending teams? A few teams have 2 better than our second and Boston has 3 better than our second. The only comparable team I can think of is Dallas and Dirk gets a lot of MVP attention for that very reason yet he’s only elite at one end of the floor.

As the article mentioned, Dwight & LeBron are the only elite ones at both ends of the floor and LeBron has nowhere near the defensive impact that Dwight does. Dwight’s offensive impact is far closer to LeBron’s than LeBron’s defensive impact is to Dwight’s.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody" -svg

by Warlando on Feb 18, 2011 7:00 PM EST reply actions  

dwight is very good but not great imo.

i’ll call him great when he controls his crying(witch he has after getting that 13 tech). i’ll call him great when he brings a championship to us or where ever he goes in the future.imo only champions can be called great no matter how stellar your regular season stats are. no championship = loser imo. 2nd best does not cut it in sports.

by magicman775 on Feb 18, 2011 8:57 PM EST reply actions  

SO, LeBron is not great....

I can accept that.

Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Feb 18, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

imo lebron is not one of the greats either.

yet just like dwight. imo you can score 40 a night but if you can’t take your team to a championship level. then your not in the “great” category imo.

by magicman775 on Feb 18, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait

So if Jordan spent his whole career in the NBA playing with Toronto Raptor level talent, he wouldn’t be great?

by eltharion_doa on Feb 19, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

if you say so.

see it is your opinion.i will not bash you cause we do not agree. separate the men from the boys.

by magicman775 on Feb 18, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Will Perdue won a ring, Charles Barkley didn't.

Sasha Vujacic is apparently also greater than Dwight or LeBron, because basketball is not a team game at all and there are no factors that lead to not winning a title besides one’s individual greatness.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 19, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Will Perdue won a ring, Barkley didn't.

Sasha Vujacic is apparently also greater than Dwight or LeBron, because basketball is not a team game at all and there are no factors that lead to not winning a title besides one’s individual greatness.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 19, 2011 1:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Stupid double-post...

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Feb 19, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Bill Russell

is the greatest player to ever compete in this sport. Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Baylor, Kidd, Dirk, Ewing, Wilkins & McGrady pale in comparison to Adam Morrison & Vujacic.

Robert Horry will go down in history as a better player than both Jordan & Magic. Derek Fisher & Steve Kerr are equal players to Magic & Kobe. Horace Grant is equal to Shaq, Tim Duncan & Parish. Horace is better than Larry Bird.

Given that Basketball is a team sport, where did this skewed view on individual accomplishments within a team setting and irrational thought process originate from?

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody" -svg

by Warlando on Feb 19, 2011 12:32 PM EST reply actions  

Blake Griffin also has a TS% of 54.7%.

True Story`.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

If Omri has 12 games with 85+ TS% (20+ mins only) on the season, I will send RikSmits a slice of Cherry Pie with real Californian cheese pasteurized locally in Washington state.

by pookeyguru on Feb 27, 2011 4:04 PM EST reply actions  

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