How Orlando can trade Howard & be OK
by JeffShann3 on Dec 11, 2011 1:58 AM EST
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Try this on for size Magic fans, see how it tastes.
Trade Machine Link – Not a crazy one
For those too lazy:
Orlando sends: Dwight Howard, Hedo Turkoglu to LA
LA sends: Pau Gasol to Houston, Andrew Bynum, LA 1st available 1st round pick (maybe 2012, maybe 2013), newly acquired Mavs 2012 1st round pick from Lamar Odom deal to Orlando
Houston sends: Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, Knicks 1st round pick to Orlando
Why Orlando does it: Obvious. Dwight wants out, fine. Take Hedo with you. Bring in legit Center, best scoring 2 guard since T-Mac, and solid PF in Scola. Draft picks out the butt.
Why LA does it: They covet Howard more than anything and will do whatever it takes to get him. This would be a no-brainer for them. Plus, they’re now in a bidding war with NJ for Howard and must meet Orlando’s demands because they can’t sign Dwight outright this summer.
Why Houston does it: Have already agreed to send everything mentioned above to NOLA in the fallen-apart (again) Paul deal. They get the big man they wanted from the beginning.
Everyone wins (except us, who lose Dwight) but hey, we get a pretty nice parting gift.
I can’t see a plausible scenario where any of the teams combined say no. What does it mean for our short-term future? Keeps us in contention in the East. We get a ton of flexibility in this year’s draft (most talented draft since ’03) which will give us plenty of options to move up/acquire pieces to build around for the future.
Long term: We now will have a glut of PF guys (if Big Baby deal is still on) with Scola, Baby, Anderson and Harper. Thats never a bad thing. Each can be easily moved to help improve draft position this year while the rest stay on for relatively cheap deals. SG spot is also loaded (if J-Rich is still here, which, as long as the deal is actually done, will be true. J-Rich, Martin, JJ and Liggins. Glut of wing guys isn’t ever a bad thing either.
Weak spots: PG and SF.
Answer: Trade our depth, use draft to fill voids at PG and SF.
Editor's Note: As MagicFaninTN astutely pointed out to me on Twitter, why not make LA take back Chris Duhon and Houston send us Goran Dragic as well? I like it.
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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I'd rather have Gasol than Martin
With the 15th pick, the Miami Dolphins select John Stamos....'s brother
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
Aging big man vs. young perimeter, uber-efficient scorer?
That paired with Bynum on the block is a nice 1-2 punch.
by JeffShann3 on Dec 11, 2011 2:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Gasol is 31 and Kevin Martin turns 29 at the beginning of February.
Martin is younger, yeah, but the age difference isn’t actually that great. I bet Gasol stays an effective player longer than Martin does due to his length and playing style.
by aTasteLikeBurning on Dec 11, 2011 2:33 AM EST up reply actions
Guards break down faster than big men.
That’s why Jabbar, Parish, Willis played into their 40’s. Olajuwon and O’neal played deep into their 30’s. Even Bill Walton was a useful player after all of his injury problems and helped Boston win championships, while Brandon Roy retired at 27.
Bigs always last longer than guards.
by aTasteLikeBurning on Dec 11, 2011 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
thats inherently wrong
Just because some play for a long time doesn’t mean they don’t break down faster. Shaq was still playing last year, but he was terrible. Guards last longer than big men. That is a fact.
by JeffShann3 on Dec 11, 2011 11:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
No it isn't.
The stats and just about every reporter who cover the NBA disagree with you.
Missing the Polish Hammer.
Guards are a dime a dozen
Few Pau Gasol’s out there. Why you never trade Big for small. See Orlando last year. I thought Marting was efficient, you know he shot 43% from the field last year? And he creates for himself and no one else. No assists, no rebounds, no steals, and no defense. Just points. Gasol can do that at a more efficient clip, plus he can defend and rebound. And he is a great passer for a big.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Id rather have nothing than Bynum!
I seriously mean that! Because nothing doesn’t sit out 30 games every year with a paper cut and count against the salary cap. We don’t need to trade for Grant Hill twice! Although at least Grant Hill was good before. Bynum is just an over hyped overrated injury prone bum! I do not want that guy here!
You're right, nothing doesn't sit out 30 games.
Nothing sits out 82. And there is a salary floor we have to meet now, so we’re going to have somebody counting against the cap whether you like it or not.
Amnestied players count towards the floor
So, Arenas’ salary pretty much guarantees that isn’t going to be an issue.
Another Hall of Fame center on the move just before hitting their peak? The NBA is Big-Market-Tastic!
Id rather have somebody counting against the cap that doesnt sit out 30 games!
Bynum is a waste! He’s not that good and never will be! He will never be an all star. He is a slightly better than average center 11 points 9 rebounds and 30+ games missed to injury. He is no centerpiece in a trade for Dwight Howard!
you are right, but remember that big men are scarce in the league, we are the only team not suffering from this because of the luxury of having dwight. So Bynum does have a lot of value. I think we should get paul bynum and picks (if possible Ebanks) and we trade them right away, if possible for an upcoming star. I mean, the Warrios are desperately looking for a 5, maybe we can get Curry. The good thing about paul is that he can be considered either a 4 or 5 and he still has a lot of value. I would look to trade them, either for upcoming stars or very very high picks and clear space… starting fresh is the path, if we keep patching things we will take more time to rebuild.
He's got trade value
Even if the Magic don’t keep him, they can trade him for, at worst, tasty draft picks later.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 11, 2011 3:00 AM EST up reply actions
1. My first trade would be Dwight Howard + OTIS SMITH to the Thunder for their GM! Damn, the Magic should really fire Smith’s ass and they should do it before he further screws us!
That being said I think that we should consider the following options:
1. Miami straight up Lebron for Howard. We get Lebron now and we make a push for Deron next season.
2. Lakers: make them swallow Hedo and get Paul, Bynum and round picks, then trade both of them again, if possible trade Paul right away. He is still productive, but I think we might get an upcoming star and high draft picks in the loaded 2012 draft. Id rather take that. The truth is the players the lakers can offer do have a lot of trade value to a lot of teams. Orlando might remain competitive but not contenders (not to mention we have the heat to beat), so just focus on rebuilding, get a lot of draft picks and clear space. We should notice that next year both the draft and the free agency will be impressive, so why not aim at that? If we play our cards right, we might be contending in no time. THE MAIN PROBLEM I SEE IS OTIS. He messed up big time and it is his fault we are in this situation..
I disagree
With trading both Howard and Turkoglu to the Lakers. Even if we were already giving them the former, the latter is arguably our next most important player-making a trade with the Lakers even more lopsided. I think a darkhorse with Howard to LA, in such a trade might be Jameer Nelson and a role player like JJ Redick.
I know many disagree with me, but I have a gut feeling Turkoglu might rebound to his earlier performance. Last year’s Dallas was filled with players like him returning to great performance.
by Green Bull on Dec 11, 2011 3:51 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
I like this
as much as it would kill me to see Howard be a Laker. However, I don’t think we get all those picks. Especially considering that they are taking Turk.
According to ESPN...
…the Lakers have pulled out of a proposed three team trade to obtain Chris Paul.
The reason? They now want to go all out to try and get Dwight Howard.
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Chicago Bears... 2010 NFC North Champion
Orlando Magic... 1995 and 2009 Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2011 4:28 AM EST reply actions
Lamar Odom Trade Exception
If the Lakers can use their new trade exception (8.9 million) to absorb Duhon and maybe someone else, I might think about it. But without another big man coming to them, like Scola, the Lakers might be unwilling to do it.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6nlefdk
Essentially Dwight and salary cap relief for KMart, Bynum, Dragic and 3 picks in 2012
I couldn’t list Odom’s trade exception in there, Trade Machine hasn’t updated it yet. But it is essentially that, and we probably get a trade exception of some form. I still don’t know why Houston pulls this trade, but it is the same one they would have made involving Chris Paul.
Anyways, how I see it playing out if the trade goes down:
1. The Magic have 3 veterans with trade value that expire after next season. (Bynum, Martin, Nelson) If Orlando thinks this isn’t the team for the future and wants to blow it up rebuilding they will have cap flexibility and/or assets to trade for young players and draft picks.
2. For 2012, we have 4 picks (Orlando, LA, Dallas, and Houston) We could package a couple of these together to move up in the draft.
For the sake of it:
PG – Nelson, Dragic
SG – Martin, Richardson, Redick, Wafer (one of these,preferably JRich, needs to be traded for a SF or picks/young player)
SF – Harper, QRich
PF – Anderson, Davis, Clark (if resigned)
C – Bynum, Davis, Orton
It probably is the best we can get for Dwight IF he has to be traded.
"LeBron doesn’t guard the other team’s best scorer until crunch-time of games, if at all. ... LeBron spends the vast majority of his time defending a non-threat on the perimeter, leaving him free to roam for weak-side blocks or steals." -John Krolik, Cavs: the blog
Doesn't work
You can’t just throw Odom in there. He no longer is a laker. The TPE has to absorb a player. You can not just use it to include it.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
I know, but part of the TPE can be used to absorb Duhon and another player.
Was just showing how it could be done on the Trade Machine without the TPE existing there yet.
"LeBron doesn’t guard the other team’s best scorer until crunch-time of games, if at all. ... LeBron spends the vast majority of his time defending a non-threat on the perimeter, leaving him free to roam for weak-side blocks or steals." -John Krolik, Cavs: the blog
I am reading more and more on Kevin Martin
Without Dwight here, I don’t want him. He doesn’t do anything but score. He shooting% is actually pretty bad. However I like that creates fouls. I like his 3%. But outside of that he doesn’t do anything else. If we had a Gerald Wallace type player than yeah. But we don’t so we would end up hating him once we saw him play.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
He may not have much value to us.
But in a trade to another team, we could probably get decent value for him.
"LeBron doesn’t guard the other team’s best scorer until crunch-time of games, if at all. ... LeBron spends the vast majority of his time defending a non-threat on the perimeter, leaving him free to roam for weak-side blocks or steals." -John Krolik, Cavs: the blog
For that
IF we had to trade Dwight, I would rather keep Gasol and Bynum. Both are better players Kevin Martin.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
But is Gasol for 3 years 55 million better than...
Martin, Dragic, and at least 1 pick?
"LeBron doesn’t guard the other team’s best scorer until crunch-time of games, if at all. ... LeBron spends the vast majority of his time defending a non-threat on the perimeter, leaving him free to roam for weak-side blocks or steals." -John Krolik, Cavs: the blog
Its not always about what is best for our team in the short term but rather which would be more valuable assets for our future if we have to lose Dwight
"LeBron doesn’t guard the other team’s best scorer until crunch-time of games, if at all. ... LeBron spends the vast majority of his time defending a non-threat on the perimeter, leaving him free to roam for weak-side blocks or steals." -John Krolik, Cavs: the blog
Or this
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=c8uq5xv
New Orleans gets a “star”. GSW gets a center. Orlando gets Paul.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2011 1:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
interesting
i wonder how high they are on Okafor..and if they really still want to unload Ellis just for the sake of letting Curry get PT
Don't be a follower homie, be a leader! And if I lose you on twitter, then so be it
by supermantotherescue on Dec 11, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
i feel like
GS would say no tho.. new management doesnt wanna piss off the fans, and al ot of people are high on Ellis in the bay area i believe
Don't be a follower homie, be a leader! And if I lose you on twitter, then so be it
by supermantotherescue on Dec 11, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Let's synthesize the situation, first … then pull the options together for a meaningful analysis.
If Dwight leaves – or is traded – the objective would be to rebuild. There are 3 approaches, in a nutshell:
1 – Trade to a team with cap space so that while dumping undesirable contracts (i.e., Hedo, Duhon, Q) we take the minimum amount of salaries back, hence shedding salary in the process (best options are Nets and Clippers).
2 – Trade for proven players (not necessarily 1st tier) to – at least temporarily – shoot for another contention while bringing in pieces which are not hard to move.
3 – Break the team totally … try to get under the cap … rely on the draft … and potential FA signings.
There could be smart combinations of these three options dependent on the situations presenting themselves. Jeff’s intriguing plan falls under item#2 with some merits. In the same context, I like to do it with Dwight here (i.e., Nash and Dwight).
The disadvantage in options #2 and #3 is the lack of immediate salary dumping. That is why I prefer option #1 but I see no rush in doing so. However, after the recent trade and signings, it is too late to hope for keeping Dwight which would have required a lot more creativity and hanging on to some trade assets (i.e., Bass).
Agree.
Either force the Lakers to give up Gasol and Bynum for a small three year window to win it all or take whatever trade that gives us cap space and picks. Houston and GSW are going to be better than the protected picks they have. But if you have to, hold out. Make sure you get Brook Lopez and Marshon Brooks. And they have to take Q and Duhon.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
ouch, I figured it was bad, but i didn't think it was THAT bad.
I wonder if Alex Martin has gone to Howard and asked him “Hey if I fire Otis, will you consider staying?”
Please leave a message, I'm busy hiding my cat from TGS.
One would hope.
The situation with Otis is far worse than I expected.
Another Hall of Fame center on the move just before hitting their peak? The NBA is Big-Market-Tastic!
I like this trade.
Makes us sort of last year’s Rockets, but with a legit center and lots more draft picks. Otis will screw it up.
I’d try to follow it by getting Igoudala from Philly. Parts that can move?
Redick (functionally expiring, fills 2 guard bench spot).
Bass would’ve been perfect here (OTIS!!!!) Pfffttt.
Scola, maybe to Bucks for Delfino and TPE to Philly.
S&T Clark to Philly on one year plus cash deal.
Nelson / Dragic / ? Hughes? [Jeremy Lin from Houston would be a good move]
Martin / JRich / Liggins
Igoudala / Harper / QRich
Scola / Anderson / Davis
Bynum / Orton / free agent
Our own 2012 1st round pick
LAL 2012 1st round pick
NYK 2012 conditional 1st round pick
Inside/outside scoring, bench scoring, shot-creating wing, wing defender, post defender, keep adding pieces through the draft or other trades.
That team competes with the top 4 in the east.
"...sometimes your eyes lie to you..." ~SVG | I'm on Twitter
by magicfaninTN on Dec 12, 2011 12:24 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd. I like that line-up with some notes to be added for future consideration or adjustments:
1 – I wonder how the total salary would look like … I guess still high. That would limit the possibility of picking some high-impact draftees.
2 – Bynum is risky due to his injury-prone history, and Orton behind him is not tested. That could turn into the weakest spot if Bynum goes down.
3 – Out of the 6 players of the back-court, 5 are not known defenders, and the 6th one is not tested.
I think Harper would surprise us but Liggins may take some time to develop.
I forgot to take Scola out.
More realistically:
Nelson / Dragic / ? Hughes? [Jeremy Lin from Houston would be a good move]
Martin / JRich / Liggins
Igoudala / Harper / QRich
Anderson / Davis / Clark
Bynum / Orton / free agent
1. Increases salary about $3M (but not into tax range). What does that have to do w/ getting draftees?
2. Agreed. But Bynum upside with Rogowski > Lopez.
3. SVG system accounts for some of that. Having Igoudala will help. And, importantly, a PG upgrade is the next change that is needed. Priority #1. How? Draft? Trade picks? There are some options there.
This lineup would have a fair shot at Boston, Chicago, NYK, and Miami if everyone is healthy.
"...sometimes your eyes lie to you..." ~SVG | I'm on Twitter
by magicfaninTN on Dec 13, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
It is a very realistic plan, but the trick is to put it into motion elevating to the starter phase, then gradually upgrade in some positions.
I think you need to take Clark out … you are sending him to Philly, I guess. I agree with your assertion at the end that this team could compete with the top teams in the East, even at the starter phase. Never mind the draftees note … it was a mix-up.
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