For Orlando Magic to Succeed, Hedo Turkoglu Must Produce
Hedo Turkoglu became the most talked-about player the Orlando Magic acquired from the Phoenix Suns on December 18th, based on his prior five-year tenure with Orlando which included a Most Improved Player award and three solid playoff runs. Orlando acquired Turkoglu and Earl Clark as throw-ins from the Suns for the privilege of netting starting shooting guard Jason Richardson (averaging 19.3 points in 31.8 minutes with the Suns) in the trade, and though Richardson's had a good go of it in Magic pinstripes, Turkoglu's arguably the most important player from the trade, at least in the short term.
Jeff Fogle of HoopData.com referred to Turkoglu as "The Straw That Stirs The Raki" for Orlando, which is difficult to disagree with based on the data Fogle presented. At the time, the Magic were 14-1 when Turkoglu made three or more field goals and 0-5 when he made two or fewer. I wanted to expand on Fogle's work, which is particularly important moving forward, as a sore back has limted Turkoglu in recent days. John Denton of OrlandoMagic.com has more:
This injury might bear keeping an eye on – Hedo Turkoglu gingerly walked out of the Magic locker room Sunday night complaining of lower back pain. The soreness has bothered Turkoglu for the past week and it’s clearly affecting his aggressiveness off pick-and-roll sets
So Turkoglu is hurting, he's played poorly lately, and the Magic went just 2-2 against a relatively lax schedule last week. With a nod toward Fogle, let's take a look at how connected Orlando's success is to Turkoglu.
To get a better idea of what Turkoglu contributes on a nightly basis--something beyond made baskets, I decided to use another HoopData metric, available in all its single-game box scores: points contributed and possessions used. Points contributed estimates how productive a given player was based on his points, assists, and assisted baskets; possessions used accounts for the estimated number of times a given player ended a trip for his team via a shot attempt, turnover, assist, or free-throw attempt. And, like points contributed, possessions used also controls for shot-creation by including assisted baskets.
Knowing Turkoglu's points contributed and possessions used for each game he's played for Orlando, I calculated his points-per-possession in each game. I then plotted that figure against the Magic's team points-per-possession in every game. The black line represents Turkoglu and the blue one stands for Orlando. A black "X" on the Magic line denotes a loss, while a black circle indicates an Orlando victory:
A glance at the Magic's four most recent games--their tepid 2-2 stretch last week, in other words--shows Turkogu had his three worst performances of the season there, which shows his back injury really must be bothering him. This is pretty clearly, a problem. Fogle wasn't messing around when he pointed toward Turkoglu as a canary in the coal mine for Orlando: when Turkoglu produces at least one point per possession, the Magic's record stands at a robust 11-1, which includes wins against the Boston Celtics, San Antonio Spurs, and Dallas Mavericks. That's the good news.
When he's below 1 point per possession, though, Orlando's only 4-6, and has lost narrowly to the Celtics, New Orleans Hornets, and Oklahoma City Thunder, and by 7 points to the Detroit Pistons. I include the former three good teams there to support the idea that an "on" Turkoglu could have swung those games in Orlando's favor.
Another point to take away here is Turkoglu's relative inconsistency. That he's met or exceeded one point per possession used in only 12 of his 22 games since returning ought to be cause for concern. When he's on, Orlando's tough to beat; the Magic's lone loss with Turkoglu exceeding the one point per possession-threshold was to the Atlanta Hawks on December 20th, their first game with Turkoglu, Richardson, Clark, and Gilbert Arenas in uniform.
If you prefer a more traditional statistical profile of Turkoglu in Magic wins and losses, I've provided it here:
| Turkoglu in Magic Wins | Turkoglu in Magic Losses | |
|---|---|---|
| 13.1 | Points | 7.4 |
| 5.6 | Rebounds | 3.7 |
| 5.5 | Assists | 6.1 |
| 2.0 | Turnovers | 1.7 |
| 55.8 | FG% | 23.1 |
| 40.4 | 3FG% | 26.1 |
| 63.6 | FT% | 69.6 |
| 64.3 | TS% | 34.6 |
Perhaps this simpler table makes Turkoglu's importance more clear than the chart did. Turkoglu shoots dreadfully and scores infrequently in Magic losses compared to Magic wins. Of most interest to me is his raw field-goal shooting in losses: it's worse than his already awful three-point percentage in defeat, which gives me the impression that Turkoglu's two-point jumper is the best indicator of potential Magic success. Turkoglu is 9-of-42 (21.4 percent) on two-point baskets in Orlando's six losses with him in the lineup. He's more than three times as accurate inside the arc, at 65.1 percent, in victories.
This analysis looks solely at Turkoglu's offense; it doesn't account for his work on the glass or at the defensive end in the slightest, and as such is only a partial picture of what he means. But, to be frank, Orlando didn't agree to take on the three seasons remaining on Turkoglu's contract because it wanted his rebounding or defense. No, he's here to facilitate the offense and make the occasional--but not infrequent--jumper.
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Another...
…wonderful statistical breakdown by Evan (Fogle). I haven’t seen all the SB sites, but I can’t fathom the idea that they are as detailed or informative. Thanks.
When you arrive at a fork in the road, take it. (Otis took it!)
Yogi Berra
by mike in munich on Jan 31, 2011 8:18 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Tomahawk Nation
I would rate slightly better than OPP. But I am still down with OPP.
Roll Bass and War Ryno for me
Yeah, I'd be interested in knowing which SB team-specific basketball blogs are similar
All the others ones I know of are different sports (e.g., Amazin’ Avenue, Field Gulls, Lookout Landing, Florida Danny’s articles on Niners Nation, etc.)
I can tell you that Tom Ziller's work is a big influence on mine. He writes for the SB Nation NBA page and Sacctown Royalty.
Arrowhead Pride?
Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.
and MHR?
Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.
My list was just the first few non-basketball ones I remembered as examples
Sorry if it came off as slighting others that fit the criteria.
The points contributed and possessions used chart is a very good depiction of wild flactuations in Hedo's numbers from game to game.
That is also validated by traditional numbers. These are all known factors in Hedo’s game from historical data. We knew all along that his shooting and scoring consistency could not be relied upon. As the write-up has correctly pointed out Hedo was always relied upon as a play-maker, and as such, the question has been – and still remains – whether or not his play-making prowess offsets his shortcomings in other facets of his game, mainly defensive liabilities. So, call Hedo Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde of the Magic – if you will – and hope that Dr. Jekyll shows up more often than Mr. Hyde on game nights.
As for Hedo’s lack of energy and back problems, such issues should have been expected since Hedo has not played at such pace, lately. Let’s hope that these issues do not turn into chronic problems of any kind.
What about other players? Would their graphs look similar?
I have to wonder how the rest of the team would fair if you broke down their stats in wins and losses the same way you did here. I’d love to see the same breakdown for, say, Nelson, Redick, or Bass.
As for Hedo, his back really looks to be bothering him. Give him a few games off, get him in the gym for rehab and strengthening, and get him healthy. The ‘Fountain of Youth’ staff at PHX delivered a Hedo that was in the best shape of his career…don’t let that slip away. Not only that, but getting some extra time for the players without Hedo might help chemistry for the rest of the guys for when Hedo isn’t playing well.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Jan 31, 2011 10:25 AM EST reply actions
I was wondering the same thing.
Because the team lost those bad games everyone’s graphs might be similar (except Dwight who has been a monster regardless). While I know that it’s certainly too much work, I’d love to see more info like this for additional players just to see if there is stronger correlation to any particular player (or even groups of players).
Y'know, for kids.
That would be nice although I doubt that any player's graph would be as fluctuating as Hedo's.
Hence the correlation to team’s win or loss would be harder to infer.
If Jameer is the Magic's X factor, then Turk is the Y.
As in, why Hedo ? why can’t you be more consistent ?
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
haha this
"But I'm still down with OPP."
http:www.//twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http:www.//twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
Jason Richardson and Jameer Nelson shoots extremely bad !!!
Evan, you are off the point.
“and though Richardson’s had a good go of it in Magic pinstripes”. Let us look the last game :
Starters Pos Min FG 3Pt FT +/- Off Reb Ast TO Stl BS BA PF Pts
J. Richardson(notes) G 27:50 4-13 1-7 3-4 +17 0 2 3 0 2 0 1 1 12
J. Nelson(notes) G 27:50 3-11 1-5 0-0 +17 2 4 8 3 1 0 0 2 7
D. Howard(notes) C 26:27 9-13 0-0 2-6 +27 6 20 2 1 1 2 2 2 20
H. Turkoglu(notes) F 32:14 4-11 0-2 1-2 +11 1 6 6 5 2 0 1 4 9
B. Bass(notes) F 31:35 3-13 0-0 6-8 +7 4 8 0 1 0 2 2 3 12
In last games, J-Rich and Nelson are shooting threes as if hey are hotcakes , however they are missing them.
There is another problem with Nelson, he is an “imitator” – altough he sees himself as a leader. This is neither as bad as it seems, nor as good as it seems.
In first two quarters, Nelson was efficient – he had a high degree of shooting percentage with three or four FGS’s and a lot of assists. He was “imitating” Hedo.
Then, while Hedo was away, he started “imitating” J-Rich – and Nelson missed 7 shoots, 4 of them were 3’s. He simply looked at J-Rich and statrted shooting threes.
J-Rich is taking and missing a lot of shoots in last games. J-Rich and Bass are missing a lot of passes from Hedo which could very well be assists.
As long as you do not look at how the game progresses and look at the final numbers, you will not see the real problem. And that is Orlando is shooting extremely bad.
"As long as we are judged by amateurs, we will be frustrated every week", Felix Magath
JRich is in a slump, but he's played well overall.
And I don’t know what you’re talking about with Nelson being an “imitator.” He shoots threes because Stan wants his players to take them if they’re open, not because he’s trying to mimic JRich.
thank you for responding to this for me.
"But I'm still down with OPP."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
You're saying someone's off base...
While bringing up one single game as statistical proof of anything, and making points as if you’ve never watched a Magic game before this.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Shooting consistency has been an issue with the Magic but not in the manner which has been framed in this post.
Early in the season even the best shooters on the team were in a slump, but that gradually changed leading to – probably one of the best games of the season – in CHI. After the trades only Hedo fit right in, and all others had to get used to the offensive system causing some decline in the ball movement, which would take time to sync. That, in turn, caused some inconsistency in shooting – from night to night – which is understandable but not expected to persist. Shooters would eventually shoot close to their averages, and Magic has plenty of shooters with high shooting averages.
by Matt1325 on Jan 31, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this
Hey, look at that! lol
"But I'm still down with OPP."
http://www.twitter.com/JShannonhouse3
http://www.twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud
I've always thought of Jameer Nelson as the barometer as to how the Magic are playing
The best game we’ve played this year (Miami at home, Chicago before the flu bug) Jameer’s been a beast.
With Hedo’s return, I think his performance affects everyone. If he’s hampered by back pain, obviously it means he’s a bit more ginger. Since he won’t be attacking PnRs and be aggressive, he’s basically a taller Turkish Quentin Richardson (in a bad way).
Except Q plays D.
Which Hedo only does when, y’know, it suits him.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
One small point of contention.
I disagree with using last week’s “lax schedule” as a point for any real analysis. They lost one game they shouldn’t have (Detroit), lost one game to a top 4 team in the East on the road (oh noes), and won two other games by 15+ points. Just prior to the Detroit game, Hollinger wrote an article about how the Magic were playing the best ball in the league since the trades, and indeed they’re still 3rd in his statistical rankings (and with the 4th best percentage to win it all). It is a flawed system, certainly, but I still think people need to ease up a bit.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I agree with you.
And I think that following every game isn’t the best thing when you try to keep an objective view on things. We get high with the Ws and low with the Ls. But the thing that worries people the most IMO is the defense which even if the numbers aren’t bad, it is something that needs work. We all pretty much agreed that this season our record shouldn’t be that important and yet we expect the team to top the conference and every statistical sheet around. On the other hand, a bit of consistency wouldn’t harm anyone.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
I agree that there are flaws, with the both the team and its players.
But I’m just worried about the trend of everyone (fans and media alike) getting too worked up over every swing in a long, long season. Like you said, people are struggling in keeping an objective, sensible view of things.
I still blame that damn Decision.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I agree with you in the sense that we cannot judge the team yet, but we certainly can judge the players based on large enough number of minutes which they have played.
Having that said, one may point to the fallacy of players existing outside the team concept – and on their own – which is a valid point in some areas but not in others.
As for a team, I have a hunch that this team is still in the top three of the East – and I don’t care what anybody says about CHI -, and since nobody but San Antonio is burning the barns in the West, could be considered in the top 4 of the league. Having that said, as the team is currently structured – and playing -, there is no guaranty that we would make it to ECF, let alone beyond.
Yup, it's a long season.
This team could fizzle out and lose in the 2nd round. Or they could stumble in the first round against an inferior team, catch fire when things look bleak, and ride that to another Finals trip like the ’09 team. I just want to be able to enjoy the season, because either way, being a team contending for a trip to the Finals is way better than where we were at a few short years ago.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I can't wait for Hedo to feel better, personally.
OT: Does it seem like, to anyone else, that some teams have been following the “how-to-beat-the-team-with-one-superstar” playbook with the Magic?
It just seems that, in so many losses, the plan is “let Dwight Howard get his, and shut the rest of the team down.” Of course, the question then is “are our guys having bad shooting nights, or is the defense of the other team causing the shooting?”
Another relevant question is: “why did I use so many quotation marks in this post?”
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.
LOL. Yeah, why so many quotation marks? Do you expect us to answer a question which you should be answering yourself?
As for the use of a period before closing the quotation, are you still transitioning to APA 6th ed.?
I refuse to identify my writing style on the grounds that it may incriminate me. I plead the 5th.
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.
Well.
I think the “Let Dwight get his” mantra works when neither Jameer or Hedo are on their game. The reason is that they’re the only other guys on the team that can create high percentage shots for others or themselves (dumping the ball into Bass is not and letting him go iso is not high percentage) if Dwight is not getting double-teamed.
Whether people like it or not, we need both of them to be playing well when the playoffs roll around, or else that will be a continuing trend.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
"Whether people like it or not, we need both of them to be playing well when the playoffs roll around, or else that will be a continuing trend."
That statement seems prophetic, and frankly, it scares the bejeezus out of me.
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.
Yes, teams are single covering Dwight and having sucess even though Dwight has great stats.
When the Magic become to “Dwight-centric” there is a tendency for the movement off of the ball to stop and the remainder of the offense to break down. The Magic are much better playing a balanced defense and getting everyone involved. Personally I think the Magic need to use more PNR’s with Dwight or Ryan to keep the defense off balance and the offense on its toes.
Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Jan 31, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. Nice reply. I think you are probably right. I'd get frustrated when we run too much of the Dwight in iso stuff
and the other four players stand around.
I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' itself.
Or without quotes:
John who had had had had had had had had had been correct.
John, who had “had had”, had had "had, “had had” had been correct.
When you arrive at a fork in the road, take it. (Otis took it!)
Yogi Berra
Hi, I am John and I have been had!
Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Jan 31, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
What did you had been had?
Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.
What kind of question is that, you cad!
Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Jan 31, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know, young lad!
Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.
But i know who does, Colin CowHEAAD
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/11/colin_cowherd_rants_on_john_wa.html
Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.
I got nothing…
Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Jan 31, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
i think i don't have something
Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.
I bet there is an app for that
Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
Hello, handsome, is that a ten-gallon hat or are you just enjoying the show?
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Jan 31, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Not that is, the exhilarating conversation of the upside down frowns.
Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.
I'm sorry to say but I see Dwight taking the high road if this continues...
why would he want to play with players that don’t seem to care? I mean I know they’re banged up right now and games will slip by but they’ve had chances to win most of theese recent losts. The team captains should call a player only meeting and see what’s going on with their expectations

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