With the New Season Looming Large, Orlando Magic Turn to Vince Carter
by Evan Dunlap on Sep 29, 2010 8:01 AM EDT
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As the Orlando Magic kick off training camp, one of their biggest concerns is the play of starting shooting guard Vince Carter, who had an uneven first season in Magic pinstripes and faded in the playoffs. To wit, three Orlando-area writers--that'd be Tim Povtak of NBA FanHouse, Brian Schmitz of the Orlando Sentinel, and John Denton of OrlandoMagic.com--have published feature stories on how important Carter is to this team.
Povtak says that Carter brushes off any talk about his uncertain future with his hometown team--his partially guaranteed contract means he could become an unrestricted free agent next summer--and he wants to let his performance do the talking for him:
"I just play and let my game speak for itself,'' Carter said. "And hopefully, that's good enough at the end of the year.''
Schmitz says he understands he needs to play his way, rather than adapting to the Magic's style, in order to succeed. And Carter apparently said "Bring it!" when asked about the challenges facing him this season.
Denton says that the team agrees with Carter. GM Otis Smith, coach Stan Van Gundy, "and even many of the Magic's players" told Carter during the season-opening meeting Monday morning that he needs to play "at a superstar level" if Orlando is to contend for a championship:
``Vince is easy at saying all of the right things, but I don’t particularly care what he says,’’ Smith continued candidly. ``I’m more interested in what he does once the games start. And his teammates told him the same thing (in Monday’s meeting) that he has to be more aggressive.’’
And it's not just the Orlando writers who are covering this angle. Yahoo! Sports' Kelly Dwyer listed Carter among the players seeking redemption this season.
There are two interesting things to consider with this sudden spike in Carter features. For one, it's that the media believe Carter needs more touches. For another, it's that the entire Magic organization, it seems, agrees with that idea. I'm surprised on both counts.
I wrote last week that, ideally, Carter would trim his usage even more, but play the same general style, and the Magic's offense would rely more heavily on Dwight Howard as a result. The season's last 41 games showed that this strategy can be successful. Yet it appears that, if anything, Orlando wants Carter to use more possessions. Povtak writes that Smith and Van Gundy "don't want [Carter] deferring to Howard offensively."
Maybe the Magic are right. After all, Carter averaged 21.1 points per game over his last season two seasons with the New Jersey Nets on reasonably efficient True Shooting (54.7 percent) with a usage rate north of 25 percent but less than 30 percent in both years. Yet I can't help but feel like Carter needs to transition to role-player mode. Yes, he needs to play more aggressively, but his ending so many possessions runs counter to the balance and versatility that makes the Magic a tough cover in the first place.
We'll see how everything looks soon enough. Orlando's preseason schedule kicks off in six days, and Carter's offensive approach during that time should give some indication about his effectiveness and willingness to take on an increased role.
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Don't wanna be negative but I don't trust that much on VC.
I also read that SVG will try to go more often in the post and those who been waiting for that might find Lewis at SF more often. At least we might have much more changes to discover than last year’s pre-season. Povtak writes that if VC doesn’t convince he might be out by February, does the team share that opinion or it’s just him beeing a journalist ?
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Agreed
VC is a great player, but last season showed that he is aging and needs to reshape his game to fit his current level of athleticism. That was clear every time I watched him drive the lane and pull up at the last second for an ineffective fade away jumper, where as a young Vince would’ve dunked through or over anybody. This coupled with many poor looks from the outside, leads me to believe that giving him the go ahead to play “his style” is pure folly. He still has a great shot (when he’s open), and he’s surrounded with all star talent, so why would he not be a role player after having had a mediocre season and a set of abysmal playoff performances?
Old age..
He has lost a step and as Magic fans we cant expect to run through people and go to the bucket on every play but without a doubt he must be more aggressive than he was last season, I do like that the media and coaching staff are challenging him and telling him that he needs to step up, everyone could use a little heat from their boss every now and then
I would rather Vince blend in with the occasional hot burst when he is feeling it
I just remember the Magic offense routinely bogging down when they would pass it off to Vince in a few consecutive isos with little coming out of them. The only time I remember that actually working was when Vince kept us in the first half of a game during the regular season against Boston. The team finally woke up in the 2nd half to eventually win the game, but it was because of Vince’s first half work that put the Magic in that position.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
Less is more
Hopefully that is what they really mean about Carter. Play him much less minutes but have him be much more aggressive in the process. If the Magic are really putting all their title aspirations on Carter, then the Magic will definitely be watching the title game, not playing. Carter is a very good player, and he is a key, but I am of the belief that his utilization should be lessened not increased and in those lessened touches, he should be in attack mode. Carter didn’t play as well as hoped in the playoffs, but that seemed a direct result of the defense. It seemed to me against the better defenses (Cha, Bos) that tended to stay at home and play Howard one on one, Carter struggled. To me that is because he was forced into isolation plays instead of having clean looks and lanes to the rim. That is on the coach, Carter is not a one on one dominant player any longer, but it seems that the coaches want to force that role on him. It is the same when Howard was unable to dominate Perkins in previous games, they still tried to force feed the offense through him. Just because it works against some teams doesn’t mean it works for all. That is what adjustments and game plans are for. This is where the Magic were lacking last year. Against Boston, Jameer was the only one able to create open looks. Dwight was good, but he could only do his damage due to the decent defense of Perkins allowing defenders to stay on their man. So once Jameer tired out or had a bad game, the Magic were done. The coach needs to create plays that result in clean looks. We have a game plan that is good against teams that can’t contain Howard, we need a game plan that works against the other elite teams. Whether it is another low post player that can command double teams, or another guard that can get past his man and finish at the basket thus causing defensive breakdowns, Carter is neither of these. He is an efficient pick n roll player that can score, but he doesn’t have the explosiveness to beat his man and wreak havoc. He needs teamwork to succeed now, not MJ play calling.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
I think the problem was the opposite in the playoffs.
There weren’t ENOUGH isolations for Carter. They kept running pick and rolls for him against the best of the best. He could go to work on Ray Allen or go right by Paul Pierce in a one-on-one setting. The problem was he was going against the entire Celtics team in those pick and rolls, and their rotations were superb.
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by ben_gleicher on Sep 29, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with BQR - less usage for VC in a balanced attack
I see the strength of the Magic being a balanced attack. The Lakers win not because of Kobe, but that he is a piece (a good one) on a talented team. Cleveland didn’t get to the ECF last year with arguably the best single talent in the league. They lacked a balanced attack. I hate seeing VC drive to the hoop only to try some circus shot. If he drives and has a good look or can dunk – fine. If not, he needs to kick the ball to someone else. No more ball hog circus shots to the detriment of Lewis, Howard or others getting their good looks/chances. I don’t believe having him feel like he has to be the old VC is a good thing. Old VC was a lot younger and played on teams that did not have the weapons and depth the Magic do.
Live life to the fullest, and do it in the fast lane
In agreement with Ben.
VC should transition to a role player at his age. We need to put more focus on Lewis, Howard and Nelson.
But then we reach the dilemma of if VC isn’t getting a lot of touches then how does he have an opportunity to get hot? Vince is going to be a sticking point in a lot of issues with the roster this season.
The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy
Carter does need to be more aggressive.
And maybe Otis & SVG are savvy enough with how Carter is motivated that this season they are telling him to “just be VC/be more aggressive”
One article (can’t remember which) included a remark about VC being more of a creator for others, too.
Remember, play calls go from SVG to Jameer and SVG controls time on the floor, so there are checks and balances on a freewheeling Carter.
I actually want to see an aggressive VC combined with higher usage for Lewis and still running the offense through the post/Dwight.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
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The Vince & Rashard Problem
Lets look at something here… Remember the Cavs series 2 years ago? If I can remeber correctly we played our best basketball with Rashard Lewis being agressive and not only hiting jumpers but posting down low in the paint…. When Carter came in Rashard and Carter both started deffeirng shots and being less agressive. Both these players rely on getting lots of touches to keep themselves in the game and their confidence up…. Im still struggling to see these guys play efficient together which will be the key to a successful season this year.
But we all know the Magic’s offense is nothing if Dwight doesnt touch the ball first!!
I think VC's usage rate should stay similar to what he had last season.
The difference should be that if he can be as aggressive as his last 2 seasons with the nets, it should be fine. A creative Carter opens up the floor for Lewis, Nelson and Howard. I think the problem with carter last year was that he was never in rhythm. He is a volume player meaning that he really does need his touches to be effective. Last year, he seemed uncomfortable thus resulting in many forced drives and shots that ended up being low percentage shots. I truly believe that he struggled because he had to produce and simply forced alot of plays rather than have a feel for the game. I suspect that if Carter really is in better shape, his numbers along with Rashards will go up. At least that’s what i’m hoping. We don’t need an entertainer Vince! We need a guy that defenses respect.
As much of a Vince fan that I am, I have to recognize that winning basketball is inside out basketball
So I think Dwight needs to AT LEAST touch the ball at every offensive possession. That creates good things on offense, just by the defense collapsing inside and making things happen for the Magic.
For Vince – the biggest thing is that he has to play with a swagger that he’s forgotten about. He’s like “I don’t want to prove that I’m an elite scorer” but actually he SHOULD WANT to prove that. Genuinely. Not just say the right things. That’s the biggest thing. And that doesn’t mean shooting 25 foot fadeaways either to prove it. To prove that you’re an elite scorer you need to take the best decisions and the highest chance of scoring-kind of decisions.
That applies to shots but to penetration-passing-running plays as well. I know he’s more than capable of doing all of this, the real culprit is if he’s WILLING (if he REALLY is) to do them. Again, I’ve never really seen somebody shut him down except himself.
In terms of his offensive involvement shooting-wise, he should be aggressive but play in a team concept. Move the ball, move off the ball, put yourself in the best position to shoot and take high % shots. Go to the free throw line (directly connected to aggressiveness). See the ball go through the hoop early in the game and go on from there. Etc etc etc.
The most important thing is for him and Dwight to create a pick and roll game and connection. That would be tremendous. It would be even better if the PnR would start INSIDE the three point line.
Also, I HOPE he got stronger in the legs and not just lost some bodyfat (that’s a positive too). The reason why he was missing on his shots was because he doesn’t have the same leg strength as before so the shots were falling short.
Judging by his body movement on the floor, he’s too timid as well so – like I said – I want him to be arrogant again. That boosts his confidence and makes his shot precise because he’s sure he’s going to score and pre-programs his shot inside his head correctly (you try that in real life – play with a swagger and see the difference it makes). If you look at any great player – Jordan, Kobe, Durant, Vince (in the past) you can see how confident and what killer instinct they had offensively. They feel like they can score on you everytime and their shot look to be on rails. Vince doesn’t have that right now mentally which is annoying.
Well we'll see how his legs look once the season starts. Obviously the 3% body fat reduction is a step in the right direction.
I’m optimistic that his efficiency will bounce back to around 20, just in field goal percentages and assist rate alone.
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by ben_gleicher on Sep 29, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hope he changes his attitude a bit
I mean, I remember reading that guy that said that during the timeouts Vince was talking to Anthony Johnson or watching the cheerleaders dance instead of listening to Stan… or being in the huddle with the guys. That might’ve been an isolated incident but I have noticed that too… that “whatever… I don’t care” attitude.
From what I’ve seen in the training (yes, I know, that was the last minutes of the training and it was just a training) his shot still looks strange (weak). That’s sad.
But yeah, in terms of passing at least, IF HE CARES he can be a great great passer. But passing usually goes hand in hand with penetration and driving and dishing so that’s a side effect of aggressiveness.
If you go to an NBA game you'll see every player not pay 100% attention in the huddle at some point, but I've never seen that with Vince. Very possible though.
He still has the aggression, he just doesn’t have the green light. Lawrence Frank made sure his players had a tremendous amount of creative license on the court. Stan wants to be that guy, but it goes against who he is as a coach.
And regarding penetration, the easiest way for him to get into the paint is on an isolation/post up. His isos/post ups were slashed last season. So it’s partly about putting him in a position to be most effective.
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by ben_gleicher on Sep 29, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why the 1/2 pick and roll worked so well
It put Vince into a post position by force. He doesn’t like to float around in the post but when he does he’s great there.
Kind of like Rasheed Wallace.
I cringed a little at "Rasheed Wallace" but I understand what you mean. I think he likes posting up a lot though.
He doesn’t have Sheed’s “I’m not going to post up, even though I’m unstoppable there… Threes are so much more fun!” attitude. He just doesn’t get the opportunity.
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by ben_gleicher on Sep 29, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Less, please
34 yr old shooting guards usually are not relied upon to score a lot for their teams. Jordan retired from the Bulls at the age of 34. And he was the greatest. Vince can still do some things but dammit if he doesn’t get to the line more, we are screwed.
"A man has got to have a code." -Bunk, Season 1; Omar, Season 4.
I'd care more about skill than age
Age is irrelevant. Skill is relevant.
If Vince proves to be in bad shape, shoots as bad as last year, shows disinterest etc, then yeah I’m with you. More team oriented, be a role player and that’s it.
But if he can play like years ago with the Nets, then he should be in control of the ball most of the time. We’ll see.
Raptorel, u hit the nail on the button.
Vince has to show that he can control the game with the skills that he has. He has to make a bigger impact on the game. I could care less if he avgs 12 ppg, 4 rpg, 3 apg, just as he impacts the game in a meaningful way. What I mean as meaningful, as in he should be able to create space for others, shift defenses. Essentially, he should be a threat to create something so that defenses actually have to respect him. Last year, teams would let Vince go one on one and he did not create enough.
That's correct
If teams need to pay attention to Vince’s game, especially when penetrating (IF HE DOES PENETRATE by the way) then Dwight will have much less pressure on him. Dwight would then just need to find proper position and hopefully receive the ball. In that situation either Dwight scores/gets fouled (if, by any chance, has learned to quickly attack the basket without waiting 20 seconds to make a move and let all the defense collapse on him) or Dwight passes the ball out to a three point shooter/cutting teammate.
Another great thing that pretty much anybody and Dwight can do, and I have rarely seen it happen, is to re-post. Pass the ball to Dwight, he posts up and gains some ground. Then he picks up his dribble, passes back to the passer, and then Dwight immediately receives the ball. That means Dwight has a much better position and an alive dribble (triple threat). Of course this would make sense if Dwight is pretty far away from the basket but still, that creates stuff on offense – makes the defense move and creates holes.
This works well for Dwight with Rashard and Vince from mid range and probably Jameer at the three point (left side of the floor) in my observation. I hope the Magic think about this as well.
I disagree with the age being irrelevant
Vince will be the 4th oldest starting SG in the league behind Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, and Raja Bell(if he starts). Perimeter players do not age as well as post players. Thats why Shaq, Ilgauskas and even Theo Ratliff and Kurt Thomas can play well over the age of 36.
I’m agreeing with most people saying to using Vince a bit less should be more beneficial to the team. But the other writers are saying to use him more, that he will be the old Vince, and be a superstar. And frankly, I don’t believe he can do that anymore.
His game was about being a super duper athlete. He has developed into a very good shooter but needs to know how to just make plays for the team. Hopefully he can but not if he is taking more than the 13 FG attempts he did last year.
"A man has got to have a code." -Bunk, Season 1; Omar, Season 4.
I am just happy to haer about the work he put in and the his physical shape he is in
I think last year he didnt know how to play Magic basketball and they are right he tried TOO much to play ,agic basketball. Let’s see if the hard work he put in pays off, i sure hope so.
BQR & everyone else, Vince plays better with more touches.
He needs to get a flow going. Even if he misses his first 5 shots, he’ll still get it going. We discussed this in the offseason, how his more efficient games coincided with more shot attempts.
And MOST IMPORTANTLY, you need a big time scorer playing with confidence in order to win in the playoffs. A “well balanced” offense gets destroyed by teams like the Celtics. They shut the Magic down. Where was Vince, people ask… he was playing within the team concept.
Vince is still capable of producing the numbers he did in the playoffs 4-5 years ago. His athleticism has fallen off a cliff since 2000, but relative to 2006, he’s not that far gone. The Magic will be wise to lean on both of their stars more this season.
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Except his shot falls short because his leg strength is not the same
His leg strength is MUCH worse than back then. That explains everything about his shooting.
But look at the percentages he put up from February on. It's obvious he can still shoot really, really well.
It’s not 100% attributable to a decline in leg strength.
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by ben_gleicher on Sep 29, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I attribute his poor shooting to two, maybe three MAJOR things
1) Loss of leg strength and conditioning
2) Loss of confidence
3) Trying to shoot just for the sake of shooting, pass just for the sake of passing (in the beginning of the season) because he wasn’t used at all with the Magic system.
That seems about right.
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by ben_gleicher on Sep 29, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
If you want someone to "fit in" in the offense and pick and choose their spots, trade Vince and start Redick.
Because that’s what Redick will give you. But if you want a star SG along Dwight carrying the load when Perkins shuts him down, you have to give him the ball and let him go to work. There can’t be an “in-between” where he’s not sure what his job is. A lot of times last season he didn’t know. Sometimes it was as if he was told to light it up before the tip, and after the first quarter it was “Hey, tone it down.” It looked like it really affected his play.
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So you say the coaching staff is to blame for VC's unbalanced performances ?
I have a vague recollection of him getting a lot of touches in game 1 of the ECF, it didn’t end up all that well. Hope you’re right though.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
I'm saying the coaching staff has a good deal of responsibility for the mental aspect.
In game one of the Boston series, he did get a lot of touches…. and he was the only Magic player that showed up. 9-18 shooting, 23 points, 5 boards. It didn’t end up well because Dwight and everyone else sucked lol.
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by ben_gleicher on Sep 29, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Heck, at least I'm averaging 34.5 ppg, 4.2 rpg and 5.7 apg with him in NBA 2k11
He’s a totally different player when you control him :D
by Raptorel on Sep 29, 2010 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You have 2k11! How did you swing that? I didn't think it came out until next week.
But yeah, I was a beast with Vince in NBA 2k10. I still won the MVP of the year with Dwight though.
The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy
Well it's on torrents since a few days ago (:D)
Anyway…
But yeah I’m averaging 37 ppg, 17 rpg and 6 bpg with Dwight so…
The game is very difficult though, if you play with the simulation sliders and on HOF for the first time you’re probably going to lose at ~50 points on 12 minutes (12 minute quarters now actually give reasonably realistic stats).
I'm very confident things will work out for VC with the Magic this season
Whatever he needs to do to make the Magic a better team, he will.
It’s very encouraging the way Vince performed the last three months of last season (the ECF against Boston notwithstanding, when the entire team had difficulties).
"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
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Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Sep 29, 2010 5:44 PM EDT reply actions
Nice to see the VC fandom crowd at OPP out in force here. lol
Now, take it easy….I didn’t say it was a bad thing. Don’t go and get defensive. Be proud of it.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
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.....um
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by TheGiantSquid on Sep 30, 2010 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Seems like the same line as last year
“Vince needs to be more aggressive” – when the 4th quarter comes that’s when he’s most needed.
If you watch this http://www.nba.com/magic/video/2010/09/28/092810practicem4v-1425516/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2 Orlando Magic practice
You can see Vince cringe like an injury is bothering him at 4:59-5:00
Any idea about that?
I guess so... I have no idea
I hope it’s not his knee and the Magic aren’t telling the press or something
Midol helps with that
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by TheGiantSquid on Sep 30, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
it's only funny if I joke about it
I'm a girl.
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by TheGiantSquid on Sep 30, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I already did
I'm a girl.
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by TheGiantSquid on Sep 30, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't care, I do what I want!
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by TheGiantSquid on Sep 30, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s a good idea to “turn” to Vince. Nothing wrong with motivation. I believe we will actually be turning a bit closer towards Redick this year… and actually, what I’m excited about with Vince, is how well him and Redick will compliment each other being subbed at different times of the games.
I also believe they (young and old) will motivate each other. Redick keeping Carter young and Carter being a constant leader for Redick.
Whoever we turn to this season is going to be a good one. We are lucky fans.
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