Revisiting a Potential Orlando Magic Frontline Featuring Dwight Howard and Marcin Gortat
The Orlando Magic could play centers Marcin Gortat and Dwight Howard together more often this season, says OrlandoMagic.com writer John Denton, with Gortat shifting to power forward to combat the league's bigger frontlines. The potential for a Gonzo, tall-ball lineup featuring those two has intrigued me since the 2009 NBA Finals, when coach Stan Van Gundy used the two in tandem surprisingly often against the L.A. Lakers, which in turn prompted my first post on the topic. And in this serendipitously-timed FanPost, OPP community member Mikeyho suggested Orlando go to that lineup next season against the Boston Celtics. So, armed with another season's worth of data, I decided to take another look at the strengths and weaknesses of the team's going huge.
However, the only constant in the data I will present here is this: Gortat and Howard at the Magic's power positions. The data do not account for the other eight players on the court. Thus, it's difficult to draw any conclusions from them. But they can give some indication about which questions to ask in a future investigation.
A few notes before posting the data. First, they're all from basketballvalue.com, where I found Gortat's player page, ran a ctrl+F search for Howard to find the lineups in which they both appear, and plugged the data for those lineups into an Excel spreadsheet. I used the "Year" dropdown menu, located in the upper right, to toggle between the various seasons available. Although Gortat joined the Magic three seasons ago, he and Howard did not share the floor until the 2008/09 season.
To clarify terms in the table: "Poss." stands for "possessions," "ORtg" stands for "Offensive Rating," "DRtg" stands for "Defensive Rating," and "Eff. Diff." stands for "efficiency differential."
As you can see, the data are limited insofar as they don't include rebounds and turnovers.
With those things covered, here are the data, split by season:
| Yr | Mins | Poss. For | Poss. Opp. | Pts For | Pts Opp. | O Rtg | D Rtg | Eff. Diff. |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2008/09 Reg. | 39.22 | 72 | 68 | 88 | 74 | 122.2 | 108.8 | 13.4 |
| 2009/09 Post | 20.32 | 36 | 39 | 33 | 35 | 91.7 | 89.7 | 1.9 |
| 2009/10 Reg. | 63.67 | 112 | 110 | 127 | 123 | 113.4 | 111.8 | 1.6 |
| 2009/10 Post | 33.33 | 59 | 59 | 65 | 70 | 110.2 | 118.6 | -8.5 |
| TOTAL | 156.54 | 279 | 276 | 313 | 302 | 112.2 | 109.4 | 2.8 |
Here's a list of things that jump out at me:
Check out the efficiency differential column, which suggests the law of diminishing returns is in effect. What started as a dominant pairing in the 2008/09 regular season has declined successively, and proved to be a liability in the most recent playoffs.
In the Magic's run to the Finals in 2009, the stints Howard and Gortat played together were slugfests, with horrid offense for both teams. That's what one would expect when playing two bigs with their skill-sets together. But that postseason is the outlier. The Magic tend to play good offense and mediocre-to-awful defense with those two otherwise. How was the Magic's offense able to stay potent despite having two non-shooters on the court? More importantly, how can a team playing two top-notch low-post defenders simultaneously turn out to be so ineffective defensively?
The minutes column might be most telling. 156 total minutes together is, rather conveniently, exactly 13 quarters' worth of basketball. Over two seasons, including the playoffs. It's not a look that Van Gundy has gone to often at all, which raises caution about trusting the data too much. The point I'm banging my head against the wall trying to convey is that it's a small sample size.
As I said earlier, this topic needs more attention and investigation. I intend to keep looking into it periodically. I nonetheless thought it' be useful to at least share the raw Gortat/Howard data, as the subject is one in which I believe many Orlando fans are interested.
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I think this part of the line-up could be very effective...
But I think it requires Gortat to truly have a mid-range game (which he says he is working on) and for Dwight to take that extra step in the post. If it is possible for us to stay as effective on offense (or at least close to it, which is the sticking point here) then I’ll take the extra defense and rebounding against bigger line-ups, like the Celtics and Lakers.
Until I see otherwise however, going away from our 4 out 1 in style would not be a good move. Not that I could ever see Stan using this idea full-time under any circumstances…
Game 5 Gortat and Howard played Boston pretty much to a draw. Gortat didn’t play the outside shots of any of Boston’s PFs well.
One thing that stuck out though is Lewis dominated Pierce again this game after being so quiet at the PF. When Pierce shoved Redick after he fouled him it seems he was frustrated by getting dominated so consistently.
By dominating again I’m referring to that January game I watched and posted on. In that game, Lewis played well at the PF but also played very well against Paul at the SF.
Lewis is so tall he just shoots right over Pierce. If Pierce plays tight, Lewis runs right by him.
Lewis was in foul trouble because he couldn’t guard the PF position. Garnett’s length obviously bothered Lewis on offense earlier in the game.
I think we would all like to see this line up work out…but it’s really a 8-10 minute line up ay best. Both Gortat and Howard are a little to mechanical on offense. Neither can really pump fake and put the ball down with a fluid move. This lets you draw a line on defense, if you keep them above the line you reduce interior offense to nothing. The other thing is both are average passers at best so you slow the ball movement with this line up also. Plenty of spot use benifits, but not a “best” line up that we can produce given our combos. But I wish….
by shaq O'flopapanick on Sep 26, 2010 8:29 AM EDT reply actions
Unleash the Twin Towers.......
It is time for the Magic to play Howard and Gortat at the same time in the starting lineup, before any trade idea involving Gortat occurs , hey I thing that is nothing to loose anyway if Marcin Gortat will be traded soon or later, so why not try this combinaton to see how well or good they play together; one thing is for sure that they will dominate the paint like never before in recent years, even LBJ or DWade will think twice before attacking the basket. SVG please unleash the Twin Towers….
they wont try it for extended periods of times because there are two teams in the league that it would be effective against, boston an LA
the small sample size argument comes into play as well, just because they succeeded one time, doesn’t mean its going to be good again. there is a reason why our starters from last season played so many minutes together, it was because those players worked well over a consistent amount of time, not just 10 minutes of one quarter of one game during the year.
Oh really???
Everybody says that and I still don’t understand why???
How about you guys just look at the rosters first.
In my book it can work just as fine against:
New Jersey (Murphy)
The New Knicks (with Amare playing PF)
76’ers (Elton Brand)
Milwaukee (Gooden)
Chicago (Boozer)
Sacto (Landry)
Clippers (Griffin, hopefully…)
Golden State (Biedrins/Lee)
Portland (Aldridge/Camby/Oden)
Minnesotta (Basley/Love)
San Antonio (Duncan/Blair/McDyess)
Memphis (Gasol/Randolph)
Houston (Ming/Miller/Scola)
Quite a list!
It is jus a question of redefining the team’s defensive focal points and finding out if Shard is still fast enough to play the 3.
For Gortat to come in to the starting lineup someone has to drop out… and I don’t see that happening.
That said, I would give this idea a consistent 15 minutes a game for the first 2-3 months, see how it goes.
Feed the cutter!!!
by Piotr Szczesniak on Sep 28, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Which definitely is not good,
Unless we move Gortat to C when D12 is at the bench, put RA at PF, and rotate D12 and Gortat until Half, and reuse the Twin towers again when the Half starts.
Honestly ain't I insane I think that's the way I gotta be
Ain't I so so supafly boy ain't nobody hot as me.
Why is that bad?
I was of the mind that Bass would be a pretty decent backup center. Especially if we end up trading Gortat.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
A 6' 7.25" backup center? That'll work real well!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Sep 27, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
In spot minutes?
He played center pretty well in Dallas from what I read.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
Yes
But on the flip, he would also pull the center away from the basket on offense allowing more driving lanes that right now are clogged by Gortat’s man. Rebounding would have to be a team effort by all accounts though, and certainly there would be a drop off defensively. I think he would manage however. There aren’t too many overpowering centers, especially backups.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
Would love to see it...
But it is so unlikely at this point, Stan and Otis are stuck on this 4 shooters-1 postman offense and we don’t have a choice at this point with th moves we made this offseason it only appears the Magic only want to continue this concept. Our offense works for the most part, but will this style be enough to get us OVER the hump.
Hello??????? Is that even true???
Sorry for doubleposting but I am looking for confirmation!
This is a link to pa polish article from today on the biggest newspaper portal in Poland (not a tabloid)
I am such a nice guy a will translate for you:
SVG promised the PF spot to Gortat.
In a conversation with Gortat SVG said that he is determined to use the Twin-Towers more with Lewis playing SF.
SVG also demanded mid-range jumper improvement from Gortat and said this will be his primary objective for this season and the cominbg months of preparation.
So is it a fluke? Or has this news surfaced somewhere in Orlando press/blogosphere???
Feed the cutter!!!
by Piotr Szczesniak on Sep 30, 2010 7:37 AM EDT reply actions

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