Ziller: Is Courtney Lee Really a Journeyman?
by Evan Dunlap on Aug 12, 2010 12:01 PM EDT
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PrintThe New Jersey Nets dealt former Orlando Magic draft pick Courtney Lee to the Houston Rockets yesterday, meaning Lee will start his third pro season with his third different team. At nearly 25--he'll turn that age in training camp--he's approaching journeyman status. Tom Ziller explains how Lee can be "the one to redefine the term":
To be a journeyman implies that there's no place for a player anywhere, that he's a mercenary for hire (Kevin Willis) or, less generously, a vital cog in only the Trade Machine dynamics of the modern NBA (Devean George). Lee fits neither definition; he's a good, young player any team would love to have, but who keeps getting dealt in bigger-picture trades as an asset (not as salary cap fluff).
After his rookie season in which he started for them in the NBA Finals, the Magic made Lee the central part of their package to the New Jersey Nets to acquire Ryan Anderson and Vince Carter. He averaged 12.5 points and 3.5 rebounds in his lone season in the swamp, sacrificing efficiency (52.5% True Shooting, down from 55.6% in Orlando) for a slight increase in possession usage (17.7%, up from 15.5% as a rookie).
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I don't think there's one solid definition
To many people, journeyman just means a guy who’s played for lots of teams.
I don’t think anyone would argue this point:
“he’s a good, young player any team would love to have, but who keeps getting dealt in bigger-picture trades as an asset (not as salary cap fluff).”
There is a lot of variability in it.
I think everyone would agree Matt Barnes is a journeyman (8 teams in 8 years).
Most people would probably say Jim Jackson was a journeyman (12 teams in 14 years).
But what about Earl Boykins (9 teams in 11 years, but with some multi-year deals and some multi-deal years)?
Or Eddie House (9 teams in 10 years, but 8 of those teams were in 7 years)?
Or Trevor Ariza (5 teams in 7 years)?
I mean, there’s got to be a line somewhere, but it’s real fuzzy.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I just hope this doesn't affect his confidence
some players take offense to being traded feeling the team they played for didn’t want them. While others (a few) take it as a compliment thinking their new team regarded them some highly they were willing to trade for them. Lee’s gone from one of the best teams to the worst and now to a mid-level team. Hopefully he’ll take advantage of playing with players he can emulate and add new skills to his toolbox instead of feeling unwanted.
I really think Courtney Lee is overrated at this point.
He’s like Kerry Kittles but not as good. He’s a limited offensive player and a decent defender against 6’4" and under guys. He doesn’t have exceptional size or length and isn’t very strong, which lowers his ceiling as a defender.
In short he’s an inferior player to J.J. Redick. Why would anyone want him back? Orlando made out like bandits in getting Vince and Ryan.
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Aug 12, 2010 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wow.
You really think he’s inferior to Reddick? What do you base this off of? STATS?? Sorry, I have to disagree with you there.. I wouldn’t even compare the two.. One is a spot up shooter, and the other’s a slasher.
Based on ability, JJ is still better.
He is even better looking than Lee and has a prettier wife. Those are my criteria if we ignore statistics. But if we bother looking, JJ has a better career per, much, much better offensive rating, slightly better defensive rating, higer TS% and a higher eFG%, and they are not close. This INCLUDES the two years JJ sat on the bench, not just last year. Lee is a below average player, JJ has become an average to better than average player. And JJ works his ass off. That cannot be said of Lee.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 12, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Then again, You're Bugging, BenG..
CL’s stats are better, he’s younger and he actually got more playing time over Reddick. Personally, I would rather have Lee than Reddick. But I’m sure the Majority of people here would choose otherwise being the system SVG uses.
I would disagree with the statement that one is a spot shooter and the other is a slasher – one is an all-around offensive threat, and the other’s a slasher. Redick’s developed into a player who is quote capable of handling the ball and attacking the rim (he was #2 in fouls drawn on the Magic last year, behind D12).
Admittedly, Lee had better stats last year with regards to rebounding, steals, and blocks. However, Redick is a better shooter and distributor, as evidenced by his higher TS and eFG, as well as his higher assist rate. The rebounds are also debatable, since Redick was playing alongside some very good rebounders in Howard and Barnes. The one year Redick and Lee played together, Redick grabbed more of the available rebounds, but one could argue that it was Lee’s rookie year, so it’s questionable which is the better rebounder. It would be most fair to say that Lee is more athletic and probably a better defender, while Redick is more versatile offensively and plays a smarter game with regards to ball handling and passing.
Also, despite the difference in their NBA experience, Lee is only 16 months younger than Redick. They’re not that far apart for age.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Redick's offensive numbers are better across the board, and he's only a year older.
Lee isn’t a “slasher.” He’s primarily a spot up shooter.
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Aug 12, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Player Efficiency Rating, True Shooting Percentage, Assist Rate, Points/40min
If you’re not looking at percentages and minutes, you aren’t really looking at statistics.
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Aug 12, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm looking at Yearly and Career stats..
I don’t see PER or TSP… And you’re judging off playing time? Didn’t Lee Play more than Redick? -I’m looking at PPG, RPG, APG and SPG… Lee beats Redick in all but Assists, and only by .2 a game.
I’d take Lee over Redick any day of the week, that’s all I’m saying.
Lee also played 50% more minutes than Redick per game, so all of his per-game stats would need to be 50% higher to be an equal contribution per minute.
Everyone has their own favorites, but I prefer B-R, with their pages on Redick and Lee. If you go down, the third section should be Per 36 Minutes (after Total and Per Game). That section and the Advanced section are the ones I generally look at for comparing players.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Redick two years into the league compared to Lee is something different.
Redick couldn’t sniff the court in the beginning and was buried at the end of the bench. I commend him on working his way up the depth chart but to say he was better than Lee with the same level of experience is CRAZY. Lee not only played his rookie year, he started (ahead of Redick I might say). Hell, Lee averaged more than Redick just last year if you want to look at stats, plus if you want to predict ceiling, he has more of an upside as well. I don’t see Redick breaking any ankles with a crossover anytime soon. You can learn how to shoot a three point shot and how to be efficient. Can’t learn athleticism. Let’s not get too hyped up on Redick just yet.
Lee averaged 12.5 points in 33.5 minutes last season. Redick averaged 9.6 in 22.0. On a per-minute basis, Redick's the better scorer.
And he did it on better True Shooting.
Redick two years into the league was the same age as the rookie Lee. Both are very good players, but so far Lee’s best TS% is worse than Redick’s worst TS%. The two bring different things to the floor, but JJ brings more offense and especially more perimeter offense, which is what Orlando needs from their SG.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Age doesn’t equate to NBA experience. Redick had two years under his belt working with NBA coaches and playing against NBA competition before Lee arrived. So “maybe” Redick has some better stats than Lee now, he wasn’t close to Lee at Lee’s level of experience currently because his minutes were miniscule. Lee is ahead of Redick when it comes to becoming a better NBA player for the future. I’ll take Lee.
If Redick is better than Lee, why is he coming off the bench?
Face it, Lee is a starter, Redick is a Great Bench player.
Because he plays for a much better team. If Lee is your starting SG, be happy with 12 wins.
you over acheived.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 12, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes wasting your breath and intellect is good exercise, Sometimes not.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 12, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
And sometimes basing a player off per minutes only is hilarious.
I can’t believe y’all are saying Redick is better than Lee just because his Per Minutes is better. LOL! Wow..What a joke!
All I know is Lee Started 42 games as a ROOKIE. How many did Redick start again? -Oh, right 14 for his CAREER. Redick is a BENCH player, even though I would love to see him start some games. Lee Started for the Magic and Nets.
And that’s the problem. Stop basing EVERYTHING off stats.. Stats aren’t everything to Basketball. A player can bring so much more to the game Not based off stats. And just because a guys PER is better than the other means only one thing. He’s better on PAPER, not on the Court. As Lee’s PER GAME proves!!
Redick fits better in SVG’s 4-1 offense than Lee and not because he’s a better player, it’s because he makes more Threes, that’s it.
“PER”… That’s laughable.
I could start for the Nets.
ORL★NDO M★GIC
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by Wally Balls 407 on Aug 13, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
That comment was oozing with sarcasm.
It was my way of telling you that any player that started for a team that won 12 games last season is not saying a whole lot.
ORL★NDO M★GIC
-SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Wally Balls 407 on Aug 13, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Pardon me, Wally B..
But even still, you can’t blame only 12 wins one one person. -Not saying you are, but blame the WHOLE organization.
I am not saying that at all.
I’m simply pointing out that when you say, “Lee Started for the Magic and Nets” it really holds no value nor does it help support your point. What helps your argument and I know you (REP96st) are not going to like to hear this, is the quantifiable evidence. Better known as the stats.
ORL★NDO M★GIC
-SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Wally Balls 407 on Aug 13, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
better offensive rating, slightly better defensive rating, higer TS% and a higher eFG%, and they are not close. All meaningless compared to starting for a team that lost 70 games.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 13, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, JJ currently is a better basketball player than Lee.
Lee has a better chance of blocking a shot or making a steal, but JJ was one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA last year by any measure. Why do you think Chicago offered him so much to play for them? He was not going to sit on the bench there. Lee started for a bad team but was shipped out when they signed Anthony Morrow, who is JJ without the defensive skills.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 13, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I went there because JJ is a valued commodity in the NBA
and Lee is a trade chip.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 13, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If they were hoping Orlando wouldn't match it, that means they wanted Redick for that much money
There are four types of situation that can happen when extending an offer to an RFA:
Win/win: You offer a player an amount of money that you think he’s worth, and that the other team can match relatively painlessly. Either team is happy keeping the player. These are more likely in sports with a hard cap, where no team can afford to overpay.
Win/lose: You offer a player what you think he’s worth, but the other team can’t easily match it. You’re likely to get the player, unless the other team sucks it up.
Lose/win: You offer a contract that overvalues the player, but that the other team can afford. This is a dangerous strategy, since you’re planning based on the other team’s reaction, but can leave them overpaying to keep a player if they don’t have a valid alternative.
Lose/lose: You offer a contract that overvalues the player AND would be painful to the other team. This is a bad idea, since there’s a high probability you’ll wind up with an overpaid player.
I would argue that Chicago thought this was a win/lose – the Bulls believed the Magic’s ownership wouldn’t go further into the luxury tax to keep Redick, so they bid towards the upper end of the value they put on his performance. They were wrong, and the Magic valued Redick at least as much as the Bulls did.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
It's not even close
Forget the stats, forget who’s starting – look at them play basketball.
Redick’s better. By miles.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 13, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Redick is better
if you give him space to get off his shot,
if basketball is all about jumpshooting,
if you don’t factor in one on one defense,
if he’s guarded by a less athletic player,
if he stays out at the three point line
And Lee is better
If you want blown lay ups.
If you want 12 wins.
Much less efficient scoring.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 13, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
if you want a player who’s good at getting blocked. Redick had 2.7% of his shots blocked. Lee was blocked 5.4% of the time.
if you want a player that doesn’t finish after being fouled. Lee got And1’s 1.9% of the time, well below the league average of 2.5%. Amazingly, for a “jumpshooter,” Redick got an And1 2.4% of the time.
if you want a player that doesn’t pass well. Lee averaged 1.7 assists in 33.4 minutes. The average for shooting guards for that amount of time is 3.0 assists.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Come on...
Even if JJ is better which Im not saying he is or isnt I’ll leave that up to you guys but what your saying NC is pretty immature and childish unless you really dont know basketball in which case it would be justifiable. Lee is not better if you want blown lay ups nor is he better if you want 12 wins…I love JJ but I’d like to see JJ try to make that alley oop lay up Lee missed….I say JJ misses that 5 times out of 10 IN PRACTICE…so get real man Lee did A LOT for us in the BEST magic season ever where we had absolutely no depth at SG…you think we do as well that season if magic draft Ryan Anderson that year instead of Lee…?
Anderson was already gone
We couldn’t have drafted him. And, for the record, he was higher on the Magic’s draft board – we would have taken him instead of Lee if he was there.
The Magic don’t call that play with Redick in the game, so your point is moot. They called that play because they thought Lee could make it.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 14, 2010 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Would we have done as well if Redick would have started instead of Lee? And why didn’t he? And since we’re talking about each player as an individual, do you think Redicks stats would have remained static if he played for the Nets? And would the Magic have matched the Bulls offer if Lee was still on the team? There was only one opportunity when the men could have been compared evenly and on the same level and Lee as a rookie beat out Redick who had a two year headstart. The team was the most successful ever. No stats and percentages can refute that.
by telka on Aug 16, 2010 9:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He's a better passer
Better shooter, better creator, better driver, better at drawing fouls, better at shooting FTs.
Lee is a better individual defender, but Orlando emphasis team defense, which Redick is rather good at despite not having the physical talents Lee does.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 14, 2010 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
uh-huh
Yea Ryan was higher on our board and good thing we couldnt get Ryan that year if not we wouldnt have made it that far and Im glad we got Ryan in a trade and couldnt draft him and drafted Lee instead and ended up having a shot at the title which wouldnt have happened otherwise cuz of the lack of depth at SG….Anderson nearly wouldnt have contributed as much as Lee did that season and neither did JJ…either way JJ’s breakthrough season last year wasnt expected by the Magic or anyone so dont act like u expected him to become this useful…Orlando wouldve traded JJ away in a SECOND to keep Lee while he was here….REMEMBER THAT…..even though Im happy they didnt and Im happy we have JJ now that he’s somebody, all im saying lets not underrate Lee and act like he is nothing…he is a solid player who gave it his all and started as a rookie on a finals team….thats something regardless of whatever you say…
Wow at the emotions
I guess since they did not want JJ they must have given in to his requests to be traded? Hmmmm?
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 14, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
he …started as a rookie on a finals team….thats something regardless of whatever you say
That’s really not that rare. Looking at rookies who started a large number of games for teams that played for championships:
Kurt Rambis
Marc Iavaroni
Byron Scott
Richard Dumas
Boobie Gibson
Greg Kite (OK, it was just 1 game – I just thought it was funny that he, of all people, got a start as a rookie)
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I can see better shooter but could you define “creator” for me? You lost me there. Better driver unless you watched him in his car you must be kidding. I’d debate the drawing fouls but the rest I could give you.
by telka on Aug 16, 2010 9:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’d debate the drawing fouls but the rest I could give you.
I don’t see how that could be argued. Looking at the year they played together (per your insistence that this is the only way they can be compared; I disagree, but I’ll go along with it for the sake of this example), Lee got an And1 1.3% of the time playing with Orlando. Redick, the same year, got And1s 3.3% of the time. Now, I’ll admit I’m just a dumb statistician, but when I was taught math back in the dark ages, 3.3% was more than 1.3%.
Redick also had a higher assist rate and AST/TO ratio than Lee the year they played together, which I would assume is where the “creator” part came from.
Lee’s unfortunately a bit two-dimensional at this point – he either drives, or he gets a pass and pops off a shot immediately (97.4% of his 3s were assisted). If he can become more versatile on offense, he’ll become a much better player.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Dark, I understand your usage of stats and being a “dumb statistician” (you said it I didn’t), I’m sure you know you can use whatever numbers you wish to prove different points for the same subject. In the same year Lee logged more minutes, than Redick, shot at a higher field goal percentage than Redick, a higher 3pt percentage than Redick, and had more rebounds per game than Redick. So you can either now start to debate who’s website is better and which stats are more valid or you can choose to go with the coach who had enough faith in Lee to start him instead of Redick and the GM who tried to trade Redick to the Nets but they didn’t want him. They had to have Lee. NOW ONCE AGAIN, I’m not trying to down Redick. As I said before I commend him for his work ethic and he’s turned out to be a dependable veteran. I just don’t believe he’s going to turn out better than Lee over his career. If he proves me wrong great.
Along with flukey 3-point shooting – Redick was down to .374, which was his lowest percentage ever. Excluding that year, he’s a career 40% 3-point shooter.
I’ve also never argued that Lee’s not a slightly better rebounder. The emphasis is on slightly. Redick collects about 5% of available rebounds; Lee was at 5.2% in Orlando.
For a team that needs a low-grade starter or high-level bench player who doesn’t need to create his own shot, is a good slasher, is responsible defensively, and can log a lot of minutes, Lee makes sense. For a team that needs a low-grade starter or high-level bench player that can create his own shot, can draw fouls, is average defensively, is a very solid ball-handler/passer (fifth in AST/TO ratio among SGs), and hasn’t proven the ability to log a ton of minutes in a season, Redick is a good player.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
He'll get his day in (or on) court..
He’ll be a free agent soon and choose who he wants to play for, I wish luck…
Just like Barnes did!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 13, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
O/T Question for Ben
Is there a place to see the details in all the Magic’s player contracts? I’m a bit new to really diving deep into the trade/money stuff, and am just curious where I can get a better handle on the roster.
Example: I know Lewis has a crazy expensive contract…but have no idea when it ends, how it ends, different ways to unload it, etc.
Lastly – if there IS a lockout, do players contracts still move forward? Like if a player is contracted through 2013, but there is a 1 year lockout, is he still only contracted through 2013, or does it fall to 2014?
::hides from “newb” bombs::
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Aug 12, 2010 1:01 PM EDT reply actions
Shamsports is the most reliable one I've found.
ORL★NDO M★GIC
-SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Wally Balls 407 on Aug 12, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
ShamSports.com
He’s the best, most reliable resource.
Also, I don’t know how the lockout would affect player salaries.
Here's the link to Sham's page
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/magic.jsp
If you hover over the name of a player you’re interested in, it will go into some detail about tricks and clauses in the contract (ie bonuses, (un)guaranteed money and option years.
I imagine that the next CBA will have to address what happens to contracts for next season should the whole year be locked out, and how that is counted for FA and years left etc.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 13, 2010 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
The word "journeyman" should be replaced by "MattBarnes"
Best of luck to Courtney Lee, may he dunk on LeBron several times this season.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
I don't understand the negative connotations of the word journeyman
To me, it indicates someone who is capable, but merely hasn’t “stuck” anywhere.
Lee’s far too early in his career to be labelled a journeyman, I think. But he’s a blow average player in the league, so he’s got every chance of becoming one.
"Below average" as a starter, maybe.
Without making a list, I’d estimate he’s around the 25th-30th best SG in the league… only a few teams don’t have starters better than him, but only a couple teams have backups better than him. Assuming there’s room for 70 SGs in the league (two per team, plus a third-string SG on one of three teams), that would mean he’s just about average.
Of course, that’s not the whole story. Because “better” and “worse” are relative. Is a guy who averages 18 points a game on 39% shooting “better” than a guy who averages 12 on 45% shooting, for example?
He’s more talented, yes. Someone’s probably going to pay him more. But unless he’s a brilliant defender, or a point guard, or something, I don’t want him anywhere near a contending team.
Whereas the second guy… well, he’s a supporting player. He’s not going to win you a lot of games, but he’s not going to lose you games, either. He’s going to hold things steady while the stars go out and win you those games. Your typical contender has one or two of these guys as starters, and one or two more coming off the bench.
Lee could be traded a few more times before all’s said and done, because of the exact niche he’s in. A lot of teams could use a player like him, but if they have a chance to get a real asset (or, um, Troy Murphy), they’re not going to blow the trade in order to keep him.
But I think it’s just as likely he’ll stick somewhere, because he’s the kind of player who can fill that fifth-to-seventh man kind of role on a playoff team. And once he does that, he’ll be like Redick: a guy who’s more valuable to the team he’s playing for than to any other team, because he knows the system.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
troy murphy is an expiring contract, and a semi-decent player
incredibly overpaid for his skills, but NJ did that move as a salary dump probably under the delusion that they can possibly get carmelo next summer.
I agree...
On top at least they stay employed long term be what may
I'd say no, if only because all this has happened by trade.
Lee’s been dealt twice because he’s clearly a solid player (so he has trade value), but he’s just as clearly never going to be more than an average starter… and maybe not even quite that (so people are willing to trade him to get the deal done.)
But he’s a smart player who, while he’s not a huge contributor, definitely doesn’t do anything to harm his team. So I think he’s going to reach the point where he’s more valuable to his own team than to any other team.
There’s no reason that Lee can’t stick somewhere. To me, the true journeymen are the guys who can’t stick with any one team because of their shortcomings, so they get swapped around indefinitely. They fall into two basic categories.
One is guys who just aren’t that good: either guys like Chucky Brown, who can fill a spot for a desperate team, but tend to lose their jobs when the teams they’re playing for decide to upgrade to a better backup, or guys like Kevin Ollie, who repeatedly get paid for not playing because somebody needs to carry three point guards in case of injury.
The other is a little more interesting: the guy whose stats or potential interest people, but who demonstrates upon arrival why he hasn’t stuck anywhere. He’s actually less valuable to his team than to any other team, because he’s intriguing, but he perpetually just doesn’t work out.
I’m talking about Chris Gatling, who was a prolific scorer and solid on the boards, but so hopelessly lost on defense that teams always ended up trading him.
I’m talking about Drew Gooden, who is the modern-day Chris Gatling. (Which means that a weird patch of hair in the back of his head is the modern-day metal skull plate.)
I’m talking about draft busts like Darko Milicic and Kwame Brown, who have traveled the country because some team thought they could finally make them into the players people thought they’d be. (Kwame might not make it much past his current four teams, so he may not be a true journeyman… but Darko’s already on five, and the only thing that’s going to keep him from hitting six is the chance that nobody will take his contract off Minnesota’s hands.)
Of course, sometimes those guys settle down. Trevor Ariza was a journeyman in the making, just exciting enough to be disappointing, before he finally emerged as a solid player with the Lakers in ’09. (And, um, is on his second team since then. Bad example.) Similarly, if Barnes truly has harnessed his impulsive nature, he could stay somewhere for a long time.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
A couple more examples.
Earl Boykins, for the longest time, was more valuable to other teams than his own. He was a pretty basic backup PG with some misplaced shoot-first tendencies, but the novelty of a 5’5" guard was intriguing. (Until it wore off, and he went to play for someone else, etc.)
He’s more valuable for his effect on the fans than for what he does on the court.
Jim Jackson was a good player for a few years, ensuring him work for the rest of his career. But once he got to teams, hey, it turned out he was a chucker, a ball-hog, and (if his reputation’s correct) difficult off the court. It’s baffling why people kept signing/trading for him after the first 3-4 times, but that’s what they did.
He was more valued by teams that hadn’t yet tried to deal with him.
Eddie House is a great shooter, but such a tweener: teams expecting him to be a backup PG, realizing he’s got the skill set of a backup SG but can’t run the offense, trading him to another team, etc. He’s a useful player, but for whatever reason, GMs don’t seem to have a solid grasp of what he does and doesn’t do. We could’ve skipped all this if someone had just hired him to play 6’1" backup shooting guard. (But then he probably gets replaced anyway, and here we go again.)
He’s more valuable in theory than in practice. (But only because the theories have historically ignored what kind of player he actually is.)
I just don’t think Lee’s fundamentally like that. His skill level isn’t undermined by much of anything.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
Courtney Lee was traded because the nets has a lot of wing players..
Playing time could have been a problem.
The NETS is like my own sense of direction..
The MAGIC made me realize that one..
lots of wings they would rather keep than Courtney, for some reason.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 13, 2010 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions
as either eddy or ben said on twitter
CLee has been involved in these deals as part of a “bigger picture” every time he was traded. Orlando traded him because we were getting Vince Carter who is obviously better than he is. NJ traded him over the potential ability to acquire Carmelo Anthony next summer due to the expiring nature of Troy Murphy’s contract. It has nothing to do with Lee being a bad player. The Rockets probably insisted on getting Lee in the trade, so NJ traded him because if they end up getting Carmelo Anthony for Courtney Lee I would say that trade is worth it. (I know that they arent going to end up getting Carmelo, but they can dream can’t they?)
OPP
Where Dislike for Bass, Lee and people who wouldn’t mind seeing a more traditional lineup Happens.
If you dislike the community here that much, there is nobody forcing you to post here.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
my post was actually defending Lee
i dont get where people think he is so horrible. are brook lopez and devin harris awful because they played on last years nets team?
I also can blame the LeBron show for the Nets lousy playing.
Why Focus when you don’t know if your staying or going? Sure, you’re supposed to just play, but they are human too…
Nobody dislikes Lee or Bass
They’re just not as good as Carter/Redick and Anderson respectively.
I was massively disappointed when we had to give up Lee to get Carter, as were most of the posters here at the time. But that doesn’t mean he’s the second coming of Michael Jordan – we don’t have to hate a guy to realistically evaluate his ability.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 13, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, no.
There’s only absolutes in these arguments. You either absolutely love somebody or you hate them. I suppose you could be ambivalent towards a player, but then no one would respect you for it.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
i hate everyone equally
at least that cant be held against me
I dislike Bass.
He’s a poor rebounder, takes inefficient kinds of shots, and doesn’t pass the ball. These are absolutes. Even if he learned the defensive rotations, these things would still be true.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
He's also makes the shots, which is why he has a robust PER.
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Aug 13, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh.
To me, the passing is a bigger issue: 56% true shooting is a nice perk, not brilliant but nice, but then he more than offsets it by messing the rotations up for everyone else.
And the rebounding is a bigger issue than that.
Though for the Magic, the rebounding’s not that big, but then the lack of ability to spread the floor is that big. (Especially because, while he’s a decent mid-range shooter, he really bumps up that shooting percentage with his play around the basket. Can’t really utilize that to its full capacity here.)
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
I didn't argue with you on the defense/rebounding lol
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Aug 13, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
Most people don’t dislike those guys. You can be the exception with Bass.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 14, 2010 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I dont know if anyone remembers
But i think the nets insisted they get Lee and the magic were willing to offer JJ but wanted to keep Lee…should be noted
More cost effective... would save them over 22 million dollars from 2010-2012
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Aug 13, 2010 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
But Lee never wanted to be a Net. Maybe that was one of the factors. Atleast he’s happy now.
The NETS is like my own sense of direction..
The MAGIC made me realize that one..
by silenthero07 on Aug 14, 2010 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
A journeyman is a trader or crafter who has completed an apprenticeship.
Lee is still under his rookie contract, so he is still an apprentice. Assuming someone picks up the team option next year, he can be a free agent in 2012-2013 if he turns down the $3.2 million player option. Ignoring the CBA, it will be interesting to see what his free agent value is. $3.2 million may be about right.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 13, 2010 12:25 PM EDT reply actions
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