Can Rashard Lewis and Brandon Bass Co-Exist Like the Orlando Magic Brass Wants Them To?
Orlando Magic CEO and Vice Chairman Bob Vander Weide told George Diaz of the Orlando Sentinel that the Magic plan to play Brandon Bass and Rashard Lewis together at power forward and small forward, respectively, next season. Bass, who signed with the Magic last summer for four years and $16 million, hardly played in his first pinstripe-clad campaign, tallying a scant 648 minutes over 50 games; only third-string point guard Anthony Johnson and perpetually injured locker-room guy Adonal Foyle played fewer minutes.
Clearly, Bass isn't happy with how his first year with the Magic went, and he told NBA FanHouse's Tim Povtak last week that he wants Orlando to either play him more or to unload him. I documented his struggles in my year-end evaluation, so I refer you there for the full breakdown, but it suffices to say that his poor court awareness on both ends of the floor kept him affixed to coach Stan Van Gundy's bench for much of the year.
However, Bass has the support of team brass. Vander Weide believes playing him at power forward, with Lewis at small forward, will help the Magic. He explains:
"[....] I think you will see [Van Gundy] find against different matchups a way to play Brandon, move Rashard to the three, and do some interesting things there. We all learned. In our post-season conversation, Stan said he should have practiced Rashard more at the three because on the baseline he’s probably the best post-up three when he plays that position, although we love him at four the majority of the time. If you don’t practice it, you don’t play it."
And earlier this summer, team GM Otis Smith said he expect Bass to improve in his second Magic season, which one could interpret as an indication that he could play more, though that's merely my reading of the situation. The point is that Smith and Vander Weide have now expressed their confidence in Bass. Can he prove them right, with Rashard Lewis alongside him?
For one thing, Vander Weide isn't kidding when he says the Magic didn't play that group last year. Bass and Lewis shared just over 50 minutes of court time together last season, according to lineup data from basketballvalue.com. However, almost 32 minutes of that time came with Bass at center and Lewis at power forward, leaving roughly 18 minutes in the entire season when the Magic played Lewis at small forward and Bass at power forward simultaneously. Not to be too cheeky, but here's a visual version of that stat:
It's hard to draw any conclusions about how they'll play together from such a small sample size. My impression, based on their overall performance last season, is that Bass' best skill is scoring. 5.8 points in only 13.0 minutes per game last year, on a career-best 51.1% shooting. That's not bad for a guy still learning the playbook in the playoffs, I suppose. His asset is his mid-range jumper, typically the least efficient shot in basketball. Synergy Sports Technology shows, however, Bass connected on half of his 56 jumpers from within 17 feet of the basket last year, which ties him for 9th in the league among the 141 players who attempted at least 50 shots from that distance. Hyper-specific stat, I know, but again: that's Bass' biggest asset. Even when he posts up, he's more likely to turn, face, and shoot the jumper than he is to try a hook or drive for a layup. And in 92 post-ups last year, he passed the ball 8 times, so you know he's not likely to give the ball back once he gets it.
And Lewis? He can score too. Van Gundy's been known to run post-ups for him to get his offense going, particularly in third quarters if Lewis didn't get many touches in the first half of a given game. He's effective down there because, at 6'10", there aren't many small forwards who can handle his size. That's Lewis' utility as a combo forward: put him on the perimeter at power forward, and opposing fours can't keep up with him. Put him in the post, and opposing threes can't muscle him. For the first three years of his deal, the Magic have heavily leaned on the former strategy. Maybe it's time to try the latter a bit more. And that's why, to a degree, you like this news: the Magic aren't getting complacent. They are looking to make some changes. Not drastic ones--note Vander Weide saying "we love [Lewis] at the four the majority of the time"--but changes nonetheless.
Synergy shows that Lewis scored 0.974 points per possession on post-ups last year, in 117 possessions. If you count his passes, that's 146 post-ups in 72 games, or almost exactly two per game. In any case, he's almost always (90.6% of the time) stationed on the left block, and he's a tough cover because he doesn't tend to go one way or the other too often, turning over his left shoulder 46.3% of the time while turning over his right shoulder 41.1% of the time. There are possibilities here, you can see, given his gorgeous fadeaway over the right shoulder. Get some weak-side movement, maybe have Dwight Howard set a downscreen for Vince Carter, setting Carter up for a three-pointer he can step right into on the right wing? Have Jameer Nelson duck into the right corner in case the D rotates to Carter quickly enough? Again, options.
Defense is another story. If Bass can learn Van Gundy's rotation, he can be an asset on that end, as his individual defensive metrics rate him as decent. Basketball Prospectus' dMULT, short for Defensive Multiplier, estimates he held his opponents to 91.6% of their normal production last season, for example. Where he suffers is in the team scheme. Once he gets that down, he's fine. He has the athleticism, reach, and strength to compensate for his lack of height. And say what you will about his frequent blown assignments, but you can't knock his effort. Or "energy." "Toughness." "Intensity." Whatever word you want to use. He plays hard, is the idea.
Lewis' outlook isn't quite as good. He can't guard small forwards anymore. He doesn't turn 31 until next week, so it's not like he's creaky, but he's not exactly athletic either. He's much better off staying stationary, guarding power forwards in either the high or the low post, as opposed to chasing small forwards around the perimeter. Given my doubts about his defense at the three, and the lingering questions about Bass' execution of team defense, and it's easy to see why this combination isn't one I believe will be successful.
The other issue here? Bass isn't the backup power forward who needs more minutes. No, that's Ryan Anderson, and as much as I hate getting into this argument, there's no avoiding it here. Last year, Bass did precisely three things better than Anderson: he got more offensive boards (at the expense of getting back on defense, I should add), he blocked more shots, and he turned the ball over slightly less. That's it. Anderson's a better overall rebounder, scorer, passer, and shooter. Anderson's quick trigger from three-point range earned him a spot in Van Gundy's doghouse late in the year, but other than that weakness? Anderson's a rotation player who needs 20 minutes a night. He's younger than Bass, produces more nearly across the board, and does so while keeping the floor spread for Howard. One can make a decent case that Anderson, when he's confident, produces more than Lewis, at roughly one-tenth the cost.
Like I said earlier, you can't blame the Magic for wanting to experiment. With Vander Weide's approval--he was instrumental in convincing team chairman Rich DeVos, his father-in-law, to okay the team's dipping into the luxury tax last summer in the first place--Smith bought a $4 million weapon last year and it appears as though he wants to see Van Gundy deploy it more often. This is a reasonable request. But it seems to me that, given Bass' and Lewis' limitations, the team might be better off using Bass as an undersized, offensively minded center and keeping Lewis at power forward, rather than trying to play them down one position, with either Howard or Marcin Gortat at center. In this arrangement, Lewis is the primary post-up threat, and getting him to post-up more is the entire reason we're having this discussion, I believe. Of course, this unit would get killed on the glass, which is a major drawback.
After more than 1300 words, I'm grasping at straws in trying to tie a nice ribbon on this post so I can go to sleep. I've pored over the numbers and racked my brain for a while and can't come to a satisfactory conclusion. So I invite you to provide your own. The biggest takeaway is that Van Gundy's apparently willing to pair the two in the frontcourt with a center, which he didn't do for any meaningful stretch last year, as I've illustrated with the chart above. Will he follow through on it it? In what situations? And, most importantly, will it work? We have another three months, at least, before we'll even begin to have an idea. If nothing else, teaming Lewis and Bass is worth a look, especially early in the season, when there isn't much at stake. If the lineup works, keep it. If not? Junk it, and try something else.
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I say lets go for it!
OPP, home of the 4-1. -Yeah, but lets give this lineup, -A traditional line-up a chance. At least enough -so when we bump into a hurdle of say the Celtics or Lakers, we’ll be ready.
Howard/Gortat
Bass/Anderson/Gortat
Lewis/Richardson/Pietrus
Carter/Reddick/Pietrus
Nelson/Duhon/Williams?
That’s a Monster line-up.
IMO
That lineup isn’t very good. Rashard can’t guard the three and Brandon is lost 60% of the time. The front office needs to write checks not set lineups. We’d make the playoffs, sure. But Miami would CRUSH us with that lineup. Bass on Bosh and Rashard on James. It’s laughable.
by The Stan 'Stache on Jul 29, 2010 10:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed, against Miami we would be slaughtered.
I think this is really only useful against a handful of teams for long stretches. However, in short bursts it could be a great way to upset the complacency of the opposing team and maybe get some quick offense. Against some of the second units in the league I could see this working great.
I’m more confident in Rashard than Bass, though. So he is really going to have to show me something to make me a believer.
The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy
Big problem here
Brandon isnt tall enough or has enough offense to carry orlando throughout the playoffs. Also, Vince doesnt have the quickness he needs to defend or demand enough attention on the offensive end. Therefore, in order to maximize the teams potential with what we have, the line up should look something like this: With Duhon height and abilities, he will most likely become the best candidate to start at PG, followed by Nelson, SG and SF are going to be the hardest positions to determine, most likely it have to be Pietrus given his defensive skills, followed by Redick, SF will best be Lewis, I know your gonna disagree on that, but l’ve followed Lewis closely and his defense has improved, Lebron will not have that easy of a time with lewis constantly in his face, followed by Richardson, PF Orton, Orton is going to play a major roll on playing defense on Bosh..Boozer…Bynum, followed by Stanley, Stanley’s height and quickness can hopefully put pressure on defense, and at C Howard, followed by Gortat.
Anderson can be a good weapon when foul trouble begins to build at the SF or PF positions….You can thank me later coach, but as of how the team stands right now, I’m sure you will soon see my point of view.
by Xavier Summers on Aug 1, 2010 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions
PF Orton?
did you watch, or even read about his summereleague performance. The biggest hope for Orton is that he proves useful enough by the end of the 2011-12 season to merit picking up the team option of $1.2 million!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 1, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Here we go.
Jameer Nelson is our starting point guard. He will not lose that spot to Chris Duhon. Richardson will most likely start at SF because Pietrus’ game does not fit all that well with the rest of the starting lineup. You might have forgotten Vince Carter, who will be our starting shooting guard, and will start the entire season unless he is injured or traded. Rashard Lewis will be the starting power forward, like he has the last three seasons. Robinson will probably not even make the team, unless he is extremely impressive in training camp. Ryan Anderson will share backup PF minutes with Brandon Bass, whoever earns them in practice will get them.
Other than that, everything you said is correct.
So you have the depth chart as
PG – Duhon, Nelson
SG – Pietrus, Redick
SF – Lewis, Richardson
PF – Orton, Robinson, Anderson
C – Howard, Gortat
You left out Vince Carter and Brandon Bass. You also included Robinson, who probably won’t make the team. You have Duhon starting over Nelson, Orton playing at all, Anderson seeing spot minutes at SF…
Ok ok
I wasnt aware of the Orton and Stanley status, but I was just being honest about how to counter the serious match up problems were gonna have against Chicago and Miami. Now you know Vince cant keep up with Wade or Lebron. Pietrus…Richardson..Lewis are the only options we have. Then were gonna get killed on the glass with great size and energy down low. When howard or Gortat gets into foul trouble against Miami, Chicago, or the Lakers its over. I was just hoping Orton could be that extra guy. Trust me, Brandon is the wrong answer. Howard said it himself.
by Xavier Summers on Aug 1, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The only way you could fail more
Would be to start Gortat over Howard.
by eltharion_doa on Aug 1, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Bass is not going to start.
As stated at the end there, Rashard is still going to get the majority of his minutes at the 4. But against a second unit when there’s not a scoring threat at the 3, it could be a net positive to have Rashard down there.
Again, only in spurts. Just like the twin towers look only works in spurts.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Still doesn't explain Bass.
I’m not saying Lewis can’t be effective at the 3, especially when the opposing SF doesn’t have the speed and/or the scoring ability to tax him. But why are we playing Bass/Lewis when Anderson/Lewis is an option?
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
"But why are we playing Bass/Lewis when Anderson/Lewis is an option?"
ROFL you must be joking.
Anderson/Lewis is NEVER an option. Ever.
Ppl are complaining about no defense with Bass/Lewis?? Anderson/Lewis would actually put Dwight’s 3-peat of Defensive player of the year in jeopardy.
www.southsyde.com
by gatorboi352 on Jul 30, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Anderson's a better defender than Bass
Not individually, but because he understands Orlando’s system whereas Bass doesn’t.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 30, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
In limited minutes?
First of all, I too would rather have Anderson/Lewis over Bass/Lewis, especially if Anderson keeps improving as a defender. (And especially if Bass doesn’t.)
Anderson is a fairly weak defender at this point, but Bass is frequently no defender at all on his own man, and often interferes with other people’s defense. Sure, you can beat Anderson on the post, but you at least have to beat him — the same can’t be said for Bass.
But second of all, we’re already talking about a limited-minutes scenario where the opposing lineup doesn’t have an effective scoring SF or PF. If they have either of them, we don’t want Bass on the floor or Lewis at the 3.
Actually, in a scenario where the opposing PF isn’t a scorer, I’d much rather have a guy like Anderson than a guy like Bass. Even a weak defensive effort can stop a non-scorer. But if Bass is five feet away from his defensive assignment, it doesn’t matter whether that assignment is a scorer or not. Even the worst offensive PF can make an open dunk.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
This puts the onus on Bass
He now has to prove he can operate in the offensive and defensive rotations. If he can, the the Magic have a new wrinkle to throw out for a few minutes to upset the opposing defense. If he cannot, then he should be traded.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:56 AM EDT reply actions
I agree..
learning the defense should be a priority. If he still gets loss, then his loss. He can’t complain about playing if he’s not playing correctly when he does play.
BASS… Step your game up if you want playing time!
and “if he gets lost”
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I've always thought
That Lewis – Bass – Gortat should be the #1 option for the second unit.
Anderson should get playing time at PF with the rest of the first unti so Lewis isn’t playing too many minutes. I’d rather see Redick and Anderson get time with Nelson and Howard creating, and Carter and Lewis providing scoring options with the second unit, than just having all the starters on, then all the bench on. I don’t think our bench was good enough at creating offense for that to work.
on to something
Might be right. I think our best lineup might be:
Paul….err Jameer
JJ(Probably our best pure passer)
Pietrus
Anderson
Dwight
Im just saying
I really like Anderson. He played great when he was starting. Im looking at what our best lineup would be regardless of money. I do think plays a little bit better defense than Anderson.
Anderson will be our starter of the future...
Assuming he’s not traded for Paul, that is… He still needs some polish and definitely some work in the weight room.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
As much as I agree this lineup should be an option
I dont like the annoucement coming from Smith and certainly not from Vander Weide. This should be SVGs call 100%. It will be practiced in training camp and used in the pre-season, but if its clear Bass still doesnt get it I dont think Stan will use it when the games count. Early season games count just as much as late season games.
Wing rotation as a wrinkle.
Okay to try the Lewis at SF idea. Worth a serious shot. Could be just fine if Bass can get where he needs to be with consistency. Agree with NC Magic Fan; onus on Bass.
And agree with Ajax2771 that this should be coming from the coach and not the CEO
My question:
How will they handle having Carter, Redick, QRich, and Pietrus dividing up the minutes at SG and backup SF? Just made things a little crowded there.
Somebody is losing time if Bass starts getting more. I share BQR’s concern that it is probably Anderson (& shouldn’t be).
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
I’d expect the usual split at wing to be Carter/Redick at 2, Richardson/Pietrus at 3, with Carter getting some minutes at 3 if it exploits a matchup problem. Peaches only got 3% of the SG minutes last season, with no single lineup getting more than 31 minutes (Williams-Pietrus-Barnes-Lewis-Howard). Carter and Redick were 49% and 45% of the SG minutes respectively, with Carter also getting 8% of the SF minutes; Redick didn’t get significant time at any other position. For Miami, Richardson played 47% of SF minutes and 5% of SG minutes.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Oh Really?
So Lewis and Bass, played the 3 and 4, a total of 18 minutes together. And you guys can make predictions of it failing already? I don’t wanna see any of guys cry about matchups or adjustments, when most of you are hypocrites and stubborn yourselves…
We make predictions because we watch the games. Bass was lost on defense last year, and Rashard is not quick enough to keep up with opposing small forwards.
Bass will probably be better in his team-defense this year (I hope he is, anyways, if he isn’t traded). Rashard, however, will not be able to offset his weaknesses on defense if he has to defend the 3 position for any sustained length of time.
by MagicMark on Jul 29, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Adam Morrison didn't play many minutes with Kobe last year
You wanna predict how well they’d do together? I can.
by Jwoey on Jul 29, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sounds like an ultimatum for the coach
I don’t like hearing things like this. We didn’t use it because it was a bad idea. Yes he’s costing the team 4 mil a year. That sucks, but that’s not a good reason to give him more minutes. Let’s face it, it was a bad signing and a poor judgment call by Otis Smith. I really wish we could trade him for assets more suited to this team.
I’m sure they’ve played Bass and Lewis together in practice many times. If it worked, Stan would have used it more often last season.
One Freaken Second
Smith had already said that the expectation was that Bass would gt more burn with a years experience behind him.
I don’t think anyone doubts that Brandon can play, it is his inability to fit the system so far that is the problem. If he can be a net positive, I am all for him getting more time, but he has to prove it to SVG first.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It would be rather odd
To give van Gundy an ultimatum right after extending his contract.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 29, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Despite Ben not being satisfied with the conclusion, he has put - just about - all options on the table.
The problem is that we have collected pieces of a puzzle and now we are trying to find a place for each piece while we know some of the pieces are misfits, anyway. Here are my thoughts:
1 – Yes, Bass at the expense of Anderson is bad now, and bad for the future which should be built on developing Anderson.
2 – Bass at PF and Lewis at SF has its own cons (and not many pros). It makes more sense to think of Bass with another player at SF, but then we revert back to item # 1 which makes it undesirable.
3 – I am intrigued by Bass at C position but what about Gortat who is seeking more minutes and is a better choice of back-up center? Another dilemma caused by collecting pieces rather than thoughtful selection for a functional purpose. Something has to give for this to become viable. Trading Gortat to make room for Bass? Sounds illogical.
4 – I think the idea of Lewis at SF and Anderson/Bass at PF (leaning towards Anderson for a starter) maybe worth exploring. I don’t buy into Lewis being terrible at defending SFs (please don’t throw numbers at me). I tend to believe that if he practices back at that position, he will do an OK job on defense while he will be superior to many SFs on offense.
If we accept that “it is what it is” then we cannot figure out how to put this puzzle together, simply because some of the pieces are misfits. Regardless, it is what it is, and there is no good answer – or bad answer for that matter – for combining this group of players together. I cannot believe myself saying this, but with this group solidly entrenched as they are, 4-1 may be the best option, although attaining a championship with the system could be another matter, altogether.
Too many chiefs, not enough Indians
Way too much chatter from the bosses about lineups, this should be in the hands of SVG without a doubt. And pitting Rashard at the 3 spot is ridiculous, “the stan stache” said it right, lebron would DESTROY him, and thats not debatable. The Magic have chose this non traditional offense and they cant be on the fence about it or try to switch it up when we play contenders. If it’s what we are going to do, then we have to stay committed.
Magic has chosen this non-traditional system?
Is that etched in stone and could not be changed? That is illogical. Let’s briefly compare this Magic team to the 1995 team. Starters were not all all-star level players (think of Dennis Scott as being slow and a bad defender), and the C (Shaq) had a lot in common with Dwight (you get my drift). With Horace Grant at the PF position, that team was a championship team only if there was not a guy named Hakeem. Why not replicate that model by:
1 – Putting a decent PF next to Dwight?
2 – Upgrade the PG position?
3 – Find a good role player and defender in the mold of Nick Anderson complemented nicely by J.J.? Sorry, Vince is not the answer.
Yes, I am suggesting to be mindful of restructuring, if the opportunity presnts itself. I am astonished by the number of people who think their views are the only credible views. remember that nothing is certain except death and taxes, as Ben Franklin said.
'Cause it's not 1995?
And, I don’t recall the 1995 winning a championship either.
They ran into that Houston team with some crazy, tall, skinny, sharp-shooting/3pt shooting PF scheme. aka Robert Horry.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me be explicit.
The 1995 “traditional” Magic lost to a 4-out/1-in team. Swept.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Lets face it though
Rashard is no Big Shot Rob. Horry played lights out on both ends of the floor. That series began his legend.
You're right about Horry's legend starting then.
But Rashard was lights out in the playoffs for the Magic up until the Boston series. He was being covered by KG while also having to defend him on the opposite end.
Horace was a good defender, but he could not handle Horry on the perimeter. Horry was much younger at the time. The Magic’s team defense was also nowhere near Boston’s.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
are we talking about the same Horry that averaged 7.0 ppg for his career and 7.9 in the playoffs? That is the stuff of legends.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
his ppg averages didnt especially matter because more likely than not he was going to make a big 3 pointer during crunchtime
(i know points dont care when they are scored and they all count the same)
Horry's the most clutch role player in the past 30 years.
Hell, I’d put him in the Hall of Fame because I think players like him should be rewarded. But yeah, there’s no question that Rashard is a better all-around player.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
More clutch than MJ? More clutch than Kobe? That’s not the same Horry I was watching.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad someone was reading.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
my bad!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa whoa whoa whoa
Robert Horry was a great clutch shooter. However, I would take Rashard over him any day of the week. Come on. Rashard is just as clutch. Just has not had the same amount of times. Does everyone forget the 09 playoff ride? Seriously. Come on. Rashard Lewis was the second best player on an Eastern Conference champion. Horry was the guy who was open because he was option 7 or whatever.
Yep, Horry had a lucky series.
You can’t game plan for a guy overachieving one week or another, though. You have to get the good players, assume they’ll play up to their potential, and hope one or two of them find a favorable matchup.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
i remember the magic
shooting WAY more 3pt shots than Houston! I don’t think Houston shot many 3pt shots at all. And it’s a bit of an exaggeration calling that Rockets team a 4-1 offense.
26.7% of the Rockets shots were 3's regular season
27.5% in the playoff.
Regular season 20.5% of the Magic shots were 3’s, 27.7% in the playoffs.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Just making sure.
You are using 1995 Houston #s and 2010 Orlando #s?
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
1995 for both teams
Rules changes have made 3-point shots more popular. Comparing 1995 numbers to 2010 numbers has no meaning. The 3-point line was shortened in 1995 and then lenthened back in 1998. Hand check rules have changed, illegal screens have been introduced, it is a different game now as opposed to then.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Plyka owned with the facts again.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I am sorry basketball is not worth your time.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I will post Horrys averages AGAIN for the 95 finals
17.8pts, 10rebs, 3.8ast 3 STEALS and 2.3 BLOCKS a game. LEGENDARY! Does anyone EVER see Rashard performing like that? Especially on D and the glass?
For that matter, does anyone see Horry performing like that?
Just because a guy got lucky and had a good week doesn’t mean that’s who he is. Horry that season was a 10/5 guy in 30 minutes a game.
Yeah, it’s great for the Rockets that he had a good series, but to act like that’s anything other than a stroke of good luck is silly. And if you’re relying on someone’s good luck to coincide with the Finals, you’re doomed to fail. You need to get the guys who actually have the talent to produce all the time. And if you get beaten by someone’s good luck, oh well. You try it again… the law of averages means things will even out in the end.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
Thats kinda the point
I think the 4 in 1 out can work. But please stop siting the 95 Rockets as an example. They used that strategy because Otis Thorpe, a very good traditional, defensive minded PF, got hurt and didnt play late in the season and in the playoffs. The stretch 4 worked because they had a hall of famer giving the performance of his life.
Actually, I believe they traded Thorpe to the Blazers for Clyde Drexler that season
The Rockets beat the Knicks the year before with Thorpe as the PF.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Jul 30, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Thorpe was still with the Rockets in 95
He was hurt. When he went down their season started to slide and everyone thought they were dead. They resorted to the stretch 4 out of desperation. They ended up being 3 in their division and a 6 seed. Kinda of a Cinderella team. Not a good model for success.
Nope. Traded for Drexler on Feb 14, 1995
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thorpot01.html
You’ll see it down in transactions. Also, he played 34 games for Portland that season after the trade and 3 games in the playoffs, so he wasn’t hurt either.
Plus he played every playoff game when the Rockets won the Finals the year before.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
Oh yeah...
You’ll have to forgive me. I was going off memory. Point stays the same though. Horry was a legend and a future hall of famer playing the series of his life. Rashard will most likely have to pay admission, just like the rest of us, to get into the hall of fame.
I can see Horry eking into the hall on his reputation
After all, there are some Boston Celtic players from the 60’s & 70’s that are in the Hall whose stats would not justify their induction.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
Horry's stats didn't justify starting for half his career.
The Hall is something else entirely.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
I will take that bet if its ever offered.
7 Championships with 3 different teams. I know for most of his career he was a role player but its no accident either. He will get in as will Steve Kerr.
I was with you on Horry, but not Steve Kerr
I just cannot see that happening unless he gets into the Hall for his basketball writings on Yahoo.com.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
Maybe not Kerr
But he is the all time leader in 3 point % and the last guy to win 4 championships in a row since Bill Russell I think. Not to sure about that last one though.
Winning a chapionship is never a good model for success.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 30, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Had one more win than the year before.
And lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
With Drexler and Olajuwon turning 33.
And Drexler missing >30 games.
Beat Lakers in 1st round. Lost to the Supersonics, who made it to Finals.
Sonics it seems had a big man who took almost 1/2 of this FGAs as 3ptrs—Sam Perkins. Sonics jacked up 1/4 of their offense as 3s and shot them at a 36.4% clip. Made it to the finals.
Orlando that next year went an amazing 60-22, but got swept in the ECF by the Bulls who went on to beat the Sonics 4-2 in the finals.
Bulls by the way shot .403 from 3 pt line. Their leaders:
Jordan .427 on 260 attempts
Pippen .374 on 401 attempts
Kukoc .403 on 216 attempts
Kerr .515 on 237 attempts
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, lets tally everything up now.
There have been 31 Walter A. Brown trophies and 32 Larry O’Brien trophies awarded for a total of 63 champions. Counting the 95 Rockets and the 07 Spurs, 2 have won with the 4-1 lineup. That would leave……let me do the math……61 championships won by teams with a somewhat traditional lineup. And Magicfan TN, I like how you omit Dennis Rodman from the Bulls roster.
Rodman wasn't a 3pt leader.
Omitted Bill Wennington and Ron Harper, too, but you didn’t call me on it.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It is beside the point, but....
few people use the word “traditional” and Rodman in connection.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, a fair bit of the time he was their C
Honor is no substitute for victory.
5 of those came with Kobe.
& 6 with MJ. Maybe we should get them.
Past performance is not an indication of future earnings.
btw, 3 point line introduced in 1979. Can’t really count before that as apples to apples.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
& used the Triangle.
Maybe we should get that.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, here a quote from SVG
"I want to watch and try to steal ideas. I always have different projects in the summer. I watch how certain people do things. I like what L.A. does with the triangle offense, watch what San Antonio does," he said. "One of the things we want to do this summer is work on our post-up offense, how to cut and move and what we can do when the ball gets thrown into Dwight [Howard]."
Triangle has not been tried much, but is dependant on having one of the best perimeter players in the league as well as a dominant inside presence in order to be successful.
Maybe not necessarily dominant inside, but at least a big man/big men who can pass the ball extremely well. That system is mostly about passing, and very little about pick and roll, which is primarily what the Orlando offense is.
You missed the sarcasm?
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Nevermind.
You were replying to Ajax and at this point the thread doesn’t indent any more. Sorry.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education | Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Jul 30, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
2 of...?
How many championship-quality teams used it to begin with?
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
why bother?
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
We are astonished by the number of people that join OPP and don’t understand why 80% of the posters disagree with their opinions, especially when the new guy has been here < 10 days and many members have been here over a year. Following the information provided by Ben (and Eddy) is like a college education in modern basketball strategy.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
all intellegent members should rec MagicMark’s post
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
cownt me in
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh Dam!
I used my 2000th post on this and may get busted by Mesa for copying my cert.
Dam!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
you spelled *Mensa* wrong in your 2001st post. Dummy. JK! Dont get mad Ben! :D
You can follow my amazing Tweets on Twitter. Also run the @O_Rena_Chants account.
my fingers are not that smart, and typing was not part of the tst!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I follow what Ben & Eddy say just fine.
I don’t always agree with them, but I follow what they’re saying. There is a way to disagree with them and not act like statistics have no place. New posters just aren’t savvy enough to know that.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jul 29, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dang.
Burn
ORL★NDO M★GIC
-SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Wally Balls 407 on Jul 29, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a good way of putting it pookeyguru.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I know you'll find this amusing...
…but experience helps. I’ve been in a few of these battles before. It tends to look the same regardless of the commentors and the players involved.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
commenters^
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Tru tru.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Cole it you too!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't kewl it.
I’m just not dope like that.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And proud of it.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Same song, second verse
a little bit louder and a little bit worse.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
So just because I joined this forum late means i kno nothing about bball?
I’ve been watchin bball since i was in elementary, and i started followin the magic heavily once I turned 13 (the age when you start to become passionate about your team).. I love my Magic, I watch every single game…just cause you guys have your opinions doesn’t make my opinions wrong
with that said NC Magic Fan, i will always have love for you and everyone here becasue of our LOVE for the ORLANDOOOOO MAGIC!!! I hope one day we can agree on somethin LOL
13 is when you start to become passionate about your team?
Is that a statistic?
I'm a girl too.
Haters gonna hate.
LOL
i guess you guys are making me have to be john hollinger like now to prove my points
I started playing basketball at 13 and have followed it passionately ever after. Reading, studing statistics, learning about advaced statistics, learning about the application of neural network theory to basketball and it has only been 50 years since my first Street and Smith’s Basketball Yearbook.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Is this some kind of pissing contest on who is the better basketball fan?
We’ve really come to this point? Seriously?
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Jul 30, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah! What's your story?
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 30, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I'm glad you asked, NC.
I come from a humble background where basketball was denied to me at such a young tender age. However I clawed my way out of the depths of non-basketball-related sports watching and have been a fan since. Due to my struggles and eventual triumph over adversity, I believe that makes me the better basketball fan.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Jul 30, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I bow to your brilliance. It makes my story of being an orphan look trivial.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 30, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nope.
It’s not anyone’s opinion that makes your opinion wrong. It’s the facts that make your opinion wrong.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
Yes, great suggestions.
1.) No PF available that is an upgrade to Rashard that fits next to Dwight. Go ahead, give me a credible deal that both teams would agree to.
2.) Upgrade the PG position… Again, give me the deal. The only one possible out there is for Paul, and look how much the Magic have to give up to get him. (I’d do it, but I’m saying putting together trades for superstars isn’t like playing Tetris)
3.) Vince is here for another year, unless the aforementioned Paul trade goes through.
As already been pointed by magicfaninTN, some of your perspective is lacking in regards to that team and the Houston team we played (not to mention the fact that Dwight is, in all honesty, a complete level below what Shaq was).
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
But it was worth the time to post the fact that this isn't worth your time?
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
Why are you being like this?
One line, fairly vague statements that come across as rude.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Not worth my time"
That’s a great response when one has absolutely nothing to say to actually address points.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Eh.
Dwight vs. Shaq is like Wilt vs. Russell. Shaq’s clearly the better scorer, Dwight’s clearly the better defender, Dwight’s probably the better rebounder, Shaq’s definitely the better passer. I’d say it’s probably closer than you’re implying, with the added point that Dwight is less self-sufficient — Shaq did more things. If you’ve got Dwight, you need to put more scoring talent around him. On the other hand, Shaq could never anchor a defense the way Dwight does.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
In the present day, Ben Franklin would say....
…“death, taxes, and arguing on the internet.”
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
"He who argues on the internet is one of two fools in the argument".
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
*tilts head inquisitively to the side*
No, it does not lack sense to say that arguing on the internet is inevitable. I would think you of all people would support that statement in light of your treatment in this thread. Well, if you mean that Franklin might have a more pithy way of expressing the same sentiment, then okay; my attempt is nonsense.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
??
Wha? Care to explain or just continue vituperating?
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cute. I get it now. This you mean to allude this?
The learned fool writes his nonsense in better language than the unlearned, but it is still nonsense. ~Ben Franklin
But you don’t have to be like that. Also from Mr. Franklin:
Be at war with your vices, at peace with your neighbors, and let every new year find you a better man.
Not sure what got your nose bent out of shape, but consider being the “better man” going forward. It’ll make your stay here more enjoyable for you and everyone else. Consider reviewing the Community Guidelines, especially #2 & 3.
For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. ~Franklin
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully not literally.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
What if MagicMark's father's name just happens to be "Benjamin Franklin" though?
Do you have daddy issues or something?
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Jul 30, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I love Bens portrait
I love it when I have a few of them in my pocket.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 30, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Good question.
No clue Funny.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Rashard is gonna play some SF?
This is ACTUALLY a possibility? and the decision was ACTUALLY discussed by people that ACTUALLY work for the Magic? Wow, what a novel concept.
I wish I would’ve thought of that. Oh wait…
by BobbyDigitalFTW on Jul 29, 2010 12:00 PM EDT reply actions
Oh wait a minute...
you were being sarcastic! You got me!
You’re funny! You should really be a comedian!
by BobbyDigitalFTW on Jul 29, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Do we have statistics bearing out the assertion that Lewis defends poorly from the 3?
I ask not because I disagree with that assertion but because it’s become almost piece of conventional wisdom, and any such piece deserves adequate scrutiny. My sense is that it may be tough to demonstrate statistically, because Lewis rarely plays the 3 anymore (hence a small sample size), and positional defensive statistics are a work in progress. Observationally, it’s also difficult to say anything with confidence, again because Lewis rarely plays the 3. My guess is that Lewis probably could cover posting 3s fairly well but would struggle against 3s driving the lane. But that’s not much more than a guess, and I wonder if we can say with confidence that his defense there would fare significantly worse than his defense at the 4. (In making this point, I set aside the over considerations about moving Lewis that generate more heat than light on OPP.)
by gift of the magi on Jul 29, 2010 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
Rashard played the 3
for his entire career in Seattle. I’m confused how Rashard got that ridiculously monstrous contract if he was such a liability on defense? The answer is that he wasn’t a liability and he wouldn’t be one here. Defense is the absolute hardest thing to measure with statistics. Even offensive stats can lead to misunderstanding, defensive numbers are almost worthless.
And the idea that someone like Pau or Bosh is easier for Rashard to guard than someone like Lebron or Carmelo doesn’t make sense. Of course Lebron is a better player so he is going to be harder to cover, but if you take the average PF vs the average SF, no doubt that rashard would have an easier time guarding the average SF. Rashard doesn’t have the size, strength or toughness to guard PFs well. He does have the necessary tools to guard SF.
At best it is a wash.
that's not true
The best players in the league are typically atop the all-nba defensive teams. You’ve heard about small sammple size? Well, your’s is a sample size of 1, pre-selected by you with your point in mind. Doesn’t prove much. I could point to 1 at bat where a scrub baseball player hits a home run and say: see, told you he was worth as much as Pujols, he hits homeruns like Pujols (at least this 1).
So you're saying Rashard Lewis was given his contract based on his defensive reputation?
How about Zach Randolph, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, Elton Brand, Corey Maggette, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin, etc etc etc. Where they not given big contracts due to how they could score the ball?
Yes, but I seem to recall Ben Wallace getting some pretty big contracts.
And Jason Kidd. And Andre Iguodala, even — not really a no. 1 scorer, but a great defender. Or how about Varejao making $6 million a year? Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo made $143 million over the course of his career. Weren’t we just talking about Emeka Okafor and James Posey getting saddled with contracts that now look insanely oversized? Etc..
Not saying that scorers don’t command a premium. Not saying that one-dimensional scorers don’t command a premium. But if a guy can get the recognition (from coaches or fans, ideally both) for doing something other than offense, he can get the money.
And that’s not even taking into account the big guys who seemingly get money solely for being big.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
there are a ton more people who get contracts based on one or two good offensive years than those who play good defense
Jason Kidd is an incredible offensive player. He is/was one of the greatest point guards in the last 20 years.
Yes, he's a great passer.
But he doesn’t “score the ball.”
I’m not saying scoring isn’t over-weighted when it comes time to pay players. (So is height.) I’m just saying you seem to be trying to take defense out of the equation, and defense is still a factor.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
plyka was implying that simply because of the size of rashard's contract
and the fact that he played the 3 in seattle, that he should be able to play small forward now, because somehow Otis would have not given him that large of a contract if he was so bad at defending the 3 position. That is the point I was arguing.
Eh.
He was also significantly faster then. (Part age, part the fact that he’s probably bulked up in the last few years to play PF.)
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
The best players in the league are typically atop the all-nba defensive teams.
That doesn’t mean they’re the best defensive players. That vote is a popularity contest that amounts to “superstar that doesn’t totally suck on defense.”
Honor is no substitute for victory.
this is a good point
typically they are pretty decent/above average defenders, but not always are the best defensive players actually on that team. name recognition wins in that regard. this isn’t saying that kobe bryant, dwade, lebron aren’t good defenders, but they get put on there because they are the most popular players in the league. there are players in the league who defend just as well as they do at their positions, they just aren’t as popular.
This is just not true.
Rashard doesn’t have the size, strength or toughness to guard PFs well.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, but it's not clear why Rashard would fail defensively at the 3
That particular point, which has been asserted frequently, does not seem to have much support.
by gift of the magi on Jul 29, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Speed.
He’s just not that fast any more.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
RYAN ANDERSON IS NOT A STARTER
I’m tired of hearing all of this talk about starting Ryan Anderson…why? He is a good 3-pt shooter and that’s about all. Can you honestly see him guarding the likes of Bosh, Garnett, Gasol, Duncan, Josh Smith, Dirk and Boozer???…I can’t. i like the idea of Bass starting at PF because he is a stronger/physical true PF who can rebound(something not many players on the Magic outside of DH12 can do).
You like Bass' rebounding, but neglect to mention the fact that Howard, Gortat, Anderson, and Barnes all rebounded at a better rate than Bass did last year.
The only Magic PF or C last year who rebounded worse than Bass was Rashard Lewis.
Did you miss the part of the post where I pointed out that Anderson’s a better rebounder?
by Evan Dunlap on Jul 29, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
i can tell you're a "stat guru"
They put way too much weight on statistics. In baseball i would say that statistics are about 99% of the ball game. In basketball, a continous game where everyone is playing off of each other with different intentions, i would say that stats are more like 25% of the ball game, if that.
every pro team would disagree with you. They all spend hundreds of thousand to millions on statistics and analysts.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
proof on teams spending millions of $$$ on stats?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
yeah but that doesn't prove they spent millions
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
ok fair enough
i will drop it after this. wasn’t arguing that teams don’t spend time & money on stats. just with the notion that “every pro team” spends thousands to millions on stats. just don’t buy that.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Not every team does, no. But NBA teams are starting to catch on, to varying degrees.
The Lakers have a stat guy, but Jackson doesn’t really use his info. The Magic, on the other hand, started their analytics dept. when SVG came aboard, apparently at his request.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/11471280/1
“The majority of NBA teams are heavily invested in using data analysis to help them make decisions — on players, coaches, trades, schemes, and the salary cap”
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 2, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
still doesn't show that teams spend millons on stats
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
All depends on which stats you use and in what way you use them.
We can tell you rue stats….well, at least 75% of them, if that. wink
You may not want to use stats in your evaluations, but don’t act like it is morally superior to ignore them. (saw a line like that somewhere on a site related to little birds)
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, you're right.
The fact that Anderson consistently got more of the rebounds than bass has nothing to do with Anderson and Bass’ relative ability as rebounders.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
So should rashard lewis
be removed from the startin lineup cause he can’t rebound? or at the very least be moved away from the PF position where you need a good rebounder?
#2 defensive rebounding team in the league
we sure needs those rebounds!
You could just say we're doing fine with rebounding.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Anderson is a better rebounder than Bass, a better passer and a better team defender.
He’s also larger, and more able to space the floor for Howard.
The only advantages Bass has are one-on-one defense and mid-range shooting… and he’s not a good enough mid-range shooter to make his mid-range shot efficient.
This isn’t even a close debate, in my opinion. Anderson outplayed Bass last year by a huge margin, and given his improvement as an all-around player (and especially as a rebounder) during the course of the season, it’s reasonable to assume the gap will be even wider next year.
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
Bass isn't a good enough mid-range shooter?
thats a joke man. the dude shot 53%from the field, all midrange shots.. he is definitley better than Anderson in midrange shots
being the best at the worst is not very good. It is sorta like being the best guy with a shovel behind the elephants.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He said he's not a good enough shooter to make it /efficient./
“Efficient” was the key word. That comes from comparing the value of a 2pt shot to a 3pt shot. It is the reason eFG% is used as a stat. From basketball reference.com
eFG%: Effective Field Goal Percentage = (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).
Actually the two players are only 2% different in TS% or eFG%, but Anderson is better in both cases. Which over several shots/games, leads to more points. Bass is a GREAT mid-range shooter, but Anderson is a pretty good 3pt shooter. If you want efficiency (more points per shot), then Anderson is the winner.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Barnes shot 43.8% on jump shots last year.
That translates to 0.876 points per jump shot. That’s not bad for mid-range jumpers, but for any other kind of shot, it’d be atrocious. (For example, a player could get 0.876 points per shot by shooting 29.2% on threes.)
There are only a couple players (Paul Pierce or Kobe, for example) who make enough mid-range jumpers for it to be efficient in the long run. For everyone else, including Bass, it’s a change-of-pace type shot, the kind of thing you shoot occasionally to keep the defender honest but certainly don’t want to take on a regular basis. But Bass’ problem is, he DOES take this bad shot most of the time — 62% of his shots are mid-range jumpers.
He was a 62.9% shooter on inside shots last year… which is better, obviously. But the fact that they only comprised 38% of his offensive output suggests that he can’t exactly get this kind of shot at will.
Anderson actually showed a similar breakdown: 66% jumpers, 34% inside shots. But while Anderson’s eFG% inside was 58.3%, a little worse than Bass’, his eFG% on jumpers (the more frequent shot for both players) was 51.2%, which blows Bass out of the water.
(Add to this the following factors: Bass’ reluctance to pass, the lesser degree of spacing he affords the center, and Anderson’s faster-developing inside game.)
I call him LeBron Jim for short.
Ryan Anderson
Is better in EVERY facet of the game than Brandon Bass. He is a better rebounder, shooter, incredibly better passer (you know, since Bass actually doesn’t comprehend what the word ‘pass’ means) and his basketball IQ is about 1000000 points higher than BB. Also, he has quicker feet and a longer body, allowing him to be more capable of defending quicker players and challenging shots with his long reach. RA is also younger therefore long term, makes more sense to give minutes to over Brandon. Bass runs around like a bull in a china shop, sometimes it worked out for him, most of the time it didn’t. I don’t want to go look up numbers because of 2 reasons:
1) I am lazy.
2) I don’t think the numbers would do anything to rebut my eyeball analysis. I watch the games and have played the game, and for the most part understand the game quite well, therefore I have come to the conclusion that:
BASS = POO (jk, he’s not terrible) But he really isn’t better than Anderson and giving him minutes w/o proving that he can improve his IQ of the team schemes, and his passing ability (you know, like actually attempting one) and his rebound rate, is just silly to me.
even if you went and looked up the numbers
they would just dismiss it as nonsense because bass brings “the hustle”!!
And toughness!
Don’t forget toughness!!!
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
There's an innocuous explanation as to why Vander Weide is saying this, and not Van Gundy.
Stan wasn’t there yesterday. He’s on vacation. So, uh, he didn’t have the opportunity to comment on it at the news conference. Also, note that Vander Weide says Van Gundy acknowledges he should have used Bass/Lewis together more last year. To me, it sounds like everyone is on board with this new idea, not that Vander Weide is telling Van Gundy to implement it. Vander Weide is still going to let the basketball guys make basketball decisions. He’ll want to give input, and the basketball guys will seek that input, but it’s not his final say.
Agree
SVG also has already said that he wished he would have played Lewis at the 3 more. I think he might have meant against the Celtics. Honestly against everyone else I don’t mind Shard at the 4. Against the Celtics, I like him matching up against Paul Pierce. He shot over him and played good defense on him. If Bass can figure out the defense, I like our chances against them next year. I don’t like Lewis at the 3 in a series against the Heat or Lakers.
Your Point?
I watch the games also MagicMark. Again Bass and Lewis played a total according to BQR 18 mins, at the 3 and 4. Until it’s proven it doesn’t work, your post has no credibility. Stop posting to make yourself seem important.
I dont post to make myself seem important, I post because this is a message board for my favorite basketball team.
It is likely they didn’t play together because Stan knew that they had better lineups to use than playing Bass/Lewis at the 4/3 spots together.
it gets worse and worse. The season needs to start so we call all root for the same team.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
+20K
Amen. Is it official now that Basketball has passed baseball?? I love baseball, but basketball is/has caught up. I hate the sterotype the NBA has. Thugs who listen to rap, blah blah blah blah. The NFL has way more criminals actually playing the sport. I mean come the freak on. Sorry a little off topic but, but it just seems everyone is talking basketball across the country and I love it.
As a coach...
You’re not going to throw someone in the game who’s failing in practice. People who have played/been around sports should know this.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Actually MagicMark is important
as a rational contributing member to a Magic fan site.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
What the depth chart should look like
Nelson/Duhon/J-Will
Carter/JJ/MP/Q-Rich
Lewis/MP/Q-Rich
Anderson/Bass/Lewis
Howard/Hammer/Bass/Orton
I think anderson and bass can hold it down for us at the 4. plus with lewis anderson and howard starting we got that big frontline again like we had with truk.
so is Bob Vander Weide an idiot like me??
cause he said the same exact thing I’ve been saying.. that Bass should of played more against Boston and during the season
“He also mentioned that Bass should have played more against Boston in the playoffs”
ESPN.COM TRADE RUMOR SECTION
Growing number of non-basketball related personnel to make that statement.
Nothing more. He has as much basketball credibility as any pundit out there. That’s like Mark Cuban agreeing with you on some basketball point when the coach who is in on the practices every day is saying something else.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
O ok
i guess i should trust some teenage bloggers over the President who is around and talks to Orlando Magic coaches/personnel directly
Brandon Bass
is gonna be a bigger factor this year, I guarantee it! whooo look out for the BEAST. I bet he will impress you guys even if you do hate on him
People weren't necessarily "hating" on him. He can obviously be a productive player. Last season for us, he was not productive.
This is because he did not show the coaching staff in practices that he had sufficiently learned to play defense within SVGs system. This is largely the reason that JJ Redick could not get off the bench when Stan first arrived as our coach. Eventually he became a sufficient defensive player and was awarded with minutes. If Bass does this, he will most likely be a pretty successful player, as most of us realize he can be. I don’t hate him, but he was not one of the players I wanted on the court very much last season, and he didn’t really do anything to show people otherwise.
Absolutely!
Are you a rich idiot , too?
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
How is Anderson a better shooter??
you say that you use true FG% or whatever..but Bass had a fg% of 51% while Anderson had a fg% of 43%
They both had almost identical FT% (82% compared to 86%)
And thats BS to use 3% because Bass doesn’t shoot any 3’s…so Bass is a BETTER SHOOTER cause 51% is better than 43% and their ft’s are almost identical
Basses shots result in fewer points
Bass’ EF% is 51.1; Ryan’s is 53.6
Bass’ TS% is 55.6; Ryan’s is 57.4%
Bass has no 3-point shot, so his shots result in fewer points.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok
yes but bass is more efficient than Anderson in making 2 point shots, and he is a tough player. Did you hear why Mitch Kupchek decided to get ron artest? not because of his ability to score, but because of his toughness which is an intangible that cannot be measured and is important
Artest would punch Bass out in a heartbeat!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
haha
ok now i really understand that you just dont like Bass
As I said before
Smith had already said that the expectation was that Bass would gt more burn with a years experience behind him. I don’t think anyone doubts that Brandon can play, it is his inability to fit the system so far that is the problem. If he can be a net positive, I am all for him getting more time, but he has to prove it to SVG first.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The Lakers got Artest
Because of his defense, not his “toughness”.
Bass is a lousy defender.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 29, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, one might argue that Ron Ron's "toughness" helps his defense.
So sure, that might be important. But he actually gets results. Bass’ ever-ambiguous toughness didn’t help his defense at all. It also didn’t keep him from trying to post up a handful of times this year…. RIGHT NEXT TO DWIGHT WHO ALREADY WAS TRYING TO POST UP HIS MAN. Really, this doesn’t even happen in pick-up games. After he did that the second time, I would’ve never played him again if I was Stan.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
One might
One might also argue that his insanity helps his defense, so Orlando should trade for the next most insane player in the NBA (I don’t even know who that would be – bring back Starbury?) on the grounds he’d be a good defender because he’s insane.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 30, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Your basically saying
just because Anderson can make 3’s that makes him a better shooter than Bass..thats retarded…Bass had a better FG% by 8% and shot almost identical FT%
Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.
3 point shots are worth more than 2 point shots. Anderson is more valuable to the offense because of this fact. It cannot be disputed.
For one, don't use the word "retarded" here. You've received a warning.
For another, being able to shoot three-pointers makes one a better shooter. I don’t see why you discount that.
Educate yourself on True Shooting percentage, which is an all-in-one method of evaluating shooting skill because it counts two-pointers, three-pointers, and free throws. The formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). It measures efficiency, not accuracy.
Anderson posted a True Shooting percentage of 57.4. Bass, because he does not have a three-point shot, had a 55.6 True Shooting percentage. Both these figures are above-average, but it happens that Anderson’s is better, precisely because of the three-point shot. Additionally, Anderson’s shot mix (400 career three-point attempts, 295 layups/dunks/tip-ins in his career) lends itself to efficiency because those are the two most efficient field-goal attempts in the game. He’s taken only 99 shots in between.
Anderson is the better shooter, if we use “better” to mean “more efficient.”
ok my bad
forgot about the language thing…but anyways, sometimes you guys are way too scientific with this stuff..when I go to the gym do you know how I recognize who the best player is? by watching them play..not by overanalyzing their stats..and Bass looked better than Anderson off the bench after the ASB and playoffs in my opinion
and Bass has intangibles you cannot measure…you all praised about Matt Barnes “toughness and hustle”, well Bass does the SAME THING…I guess you just don’t notice it but he brings energy, toughness, and hustles for balls just like Matt Barnes did
I mean thats cool that you guys are like John Hollinger
but even his scientific formulas don’t work..he said we are the best team in the nba according to his scientific rankings, but we didn’t even make it to the NBA Finals..time to switch things up and let Bass play yuahh!!!
The game is not played on a spreadsheet. He uses his rankings to determine who is playing better at that given point in time. We were playing the best out of any team in the league as we went into the playoffs. That is all his rankings said.
If we had kept up the play we had throughout the second half of the season in the Boston series, we would have won. Most of the players on our team played badly for 6 straight games, so we lost.
Thank you for the compliment
being compared to John Hollinger is high praise to any basketball fan!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
not to me
I can’t really remember the last time that Hollinger was actually correct about something. People like him do believe that games are played on a spreadsheet. They don’t understand that basketball is not like baseball. It is a fluid game with 10 people playing all at once, all with different intentions. This is why people like HOllinger are wrong about basically everything. When was the last time he predicted correctly who would win the championship? Last year he selected the Cavs or the Magic, i don’t remember. He had the Lakers in 11th or 12th spot. Just think about that. He was saying, before the defending champs repeated for their 2nd ring and 3rd trip to the finals in 3 years, that they were the 12th best team in the playoffs, lol! There are only 16 teams in the entire playoffs. The lakers were like a 6th or 7th seed depending on the balance of power in the conferences. And the Celtics were 10th, lol. How wrong can you be for how many years? The year prior he predicted the Cavs would win the championship.
I’m not saying that Hollinger has absolutely no use. But he is more wrong than right when a coin flip would get you 50%.
Read what I read.
His rankings only indicate how well a team is playing at that point in time. It can’t really be used to accurately predict future success, unless the team keeps playing as well or as badly as they had been. The Lakers were an anamoly due to the fact that they know they are a great team so they can coast through the regular season and dial it up a notch in hte playoffs. The Cavs were ranked low because they ended hte season losing 10 of their last 6 games because they were resting their players for the playoffs. Orlando was ranked #1 because they had something like a 28-3 record in their last 31 games with a ridiculous point differential during that time. Obviously the pace was unsustainable, but you can’t completely discount it just becuase you don’t like stats.
Hollinger had Lakers #10 & Celtics #12
So, teams 2-9 played schemes other than 4out/1-in and lost as well.
Though it you’ll pardon the snark: I see what you mean. Cleveland was ranked #5 even though they had the best record. They got bounced in the playoffs by Boston. They reorganized their team by removing their greatest offensive strength. The Suns at #3 did the same. So I can see us following their lead by removing our greatest offensive strength, too Should help all three teams next year. (remember this is sarcasm, I’m not really trying to make a real point, except that illogical logic isn’t really logical)
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
*though if you'll pardon
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I guess I am trying to make a point.
Just because you don’t win it all does not mean the system is broken. Make adjustments, but don’t always throw the baby out with the bath water.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree and disagree
Taking stats aside I will tell you what I see.
Bass: Great energy, enthusiasm, and hustle plays. If you were to play the game for 2-4 minutes spurts, I would take Bass. However after, you have seen him you notice the weaknesses. And on defense he looks absolutely lost. This is not playing at the local gym. This is professional basketball, and SVG has specific way of playing defense. Sometimes looks like Bass is playing street ball. Anderson understands almost every concept that SVG wants his player to execute. Yes he lacks the athleticism of BBass, but Ryan is one hell of rebounder. Seriously. He creates more offense and plays better defense in the SVG system. That is just from my eyes.
Now, if you notice, with all the trade talk lately, you notice that Ryan Anderson is the one being mentioned for a trade instead of Brandon Bass. Aside from the contracts, Ryan Anderson is just a better player. And people who are actually in the business of basketball, i.e. GM’s, coaches, scouts, etc. they will tell you they would rather have Anderson over Bass.
I dont agree
i bet many teams would prefer Bass over Anderson…dallas fans were real upset when he left for Orlando
You are probably right there are teams who'd prefer Bass.
Probably not the one’s using advanced metrics.
Frankly, a lot of teams would prefer Bass over the PFs they have now. We have a bit of an embarrassment of riches. But Bass has yet to fit the system. I thought a year was enough to show that. Otis thinks differently.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Bass works well on teams that don't have sophistocated systems.
He would’ve been great on Chicago last year, for example. Just a team running up and down and playing basketball without complex sets. Maybe he can go to the Clippers and follow Del Negro there. Teams where his athleticism is the important part and team defense isn’t stressed.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
You act as though I don't watch the games. I do. I've watched every game this team has played since late in the 2006/07 season.
Yes, I consulted some stats in my post. I also used observation. I did not just plug some numbers into a computer and have it generate this post. I am human. I have eyes.
You're just a numbers cyborg Ben.
Admit it.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Nice!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yea well trust me
I live in california and i ordered nba season pass just to watch my magic.. i watch every game as well..even when we blow teams out by 50 i LOVE watchin the game till the end so I can see the guys we never use play and see what they can do..I understand your passionate but so am I
Ben, your use of mixed methods is appropriate, and strongly supported by modern research techniques.
Without attempting to reveal my background, let’s say I have high level competence in business and statistics both in theory and practice. I am concerned with some folks on this blog who claim stats knowledge but are void of the basics. They are rudely mocking anybody who does not agree with their set views, and are basically recycling chewed up information over and over again. I have very little time to spare and while I enjoy this blog, if this trend continues, I will have to sign off. My compliments to you for the excellent job that you do in covering our beloved Magic.
Somehow, I feel my 40 years using statistics in a business pricing environment and studying advanced methods has been a waste. Should I eliminate myself????
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, ya'll. Come on now.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
We going to a party?
I am not going if the party is at South Beach!!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 29, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you drinking and posting?
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
by magicfaninTN on Jul 29, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
in vino veritas!
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 30, 2010 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions<

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