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Povtak: A Dissatisfied Brandon Bass Seeks a Bigger Role or a Trade

Orlando Magic power forward Brandon Bass had some pretty strong words for team coaches and management over the weekend, according to this report by Tim Povtak of AOL FanHouse. Take a look at these comments, to which I added emphasis:

"I think they'll do the right thing, whatever is the right thing -- either play me next season or send me somewhere else. That's what I'm hoping,'' Bass told FanHouse earlier this week following the Summer Groove charity game in Miami. "I won't go through what I did last season.''

And later, with Povtak's parenthetical additions...

"I expect things to be better for me next season,'' he said. "I felt like I deserved more of an opportunity than I received last season. Look at the series (against Boston when the Magic lost). I was just what was missing. I respect Coach Stan (Van Gundy) and the way he likes to play, but sometimes you have to try something different.''

Bass isn't really in any position to sound so entitled--"I expect things to be better for me"?!--but for what it's worth, team GM Otis Smith seemed to agree last week that Bass could see a larger role next year, saying he expects bigger things from him. Bass averaged 5.8 points and 2.5 boards his first season in Orlando, shooting 51.1% from the floor in just 13 minutes per game.

As Povtak explains, Bass thought he'd be a regular in the Magic's rotation after signing a four-year, $16 million deal last summer. In reality, he was one of the most richly paid 11th men in the game. His lack of court awareness on both ends of the floor didn't endear him to Van Gundy. Plus, his mid-range-based offensive game is ill-suited to the Magic's attack, which requires four shooters with three-point range to surround Dwight Howard in the middle.

If anything, you like to see that Bass is hungry and wants to play. But he probably could have gone about asking about it more diplomatically.

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I suppose you can delete my fanpost now, BQR

Almost everything I wrote, you covered as well. Mind you I wrote my fanpost before I noticed you put this up.

by RL Magic on Jul 20, 2010 1:18 AM EDT reply actions  

You TELL EM' Bass!

Bass is much better than Ryan Anderson for this team. Way to stick it to em to start treating you the right way…

by ap3604 on Jul 20, 2010 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anderson is not better for ANY team in this league. He is one dimensional, over hyped, and lacking of talent. Dude can hit threes, so can Pat Garrity.

OPP.com can knock Bass all they want, dude will be in the NBA long after Ryan has fizzled out.

by gatorboi352 on Jul 20, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

That would be why Anderson takes 34% of his shots from inside the paint, while Bass takes 38%? And if you exclude dunks and tip-ins, Anderson takes 25% of his shots close, while Bass is at 21%? Bass is a slightly better offensive rebounder (8.8% of opportunities to Anderson’s 8.2%), but Anderson is a better defensive rebounder (14.5% to 11.8%). Anderson also fouls less and assists more. So, if you want a guy who can dunk and is a slightly better offensive rebounder, pick Bass. If you want a guy who can shoot from outside, drive the lane, rebound on defense, pass, and not foul, pick Anderson.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

SO much wrong in your post.

It’s the hyperbole that bothers me- “lacking of talent”. You’re kidding right?

by fwedo on Jul 20, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

FINALLY

some brandon bass supporters! where were you guys when I had to defend him by myself?? LOL

by jiggadpg00 on Jul 20, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are like 4 or 5 of you Bass supporters.

You all have the same song and dance and it gets really old after a while.

I'm a girl too.

Haters gonna hate.

by GoMagicGo on Jul 20, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

-Says the dude with a wheelchair sig…
I’m a girl too.

I think the blind man should not be mocking the handicapped ;)

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

LMAO

I don’t know how to respond to pure stupidity.

I'm a girl too.

Haters gonna hate.

by GoMagicGo on Jul 20, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, ROFL…I didn’t notice the head until now. That’s made of pure win.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, I’m half-blind. It took me a couple times to notice it wasn’t the standard wheelchair symbol

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I meant to reply to GoMagicGo on how to respond to pure stupidity. My bad.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh, no problem. There are times I deserve to have that meter applied to me. That just wasn’t one of them.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

"There are like 4 or 5 of you Bass supporters. You all have the same song and dance and it gets really old after a while."

Sorry we don’t roll with the flow. Thank goodness for personal opinions. Pardon the “dude” comment, as I missed that, but please leave the personal attacks to yourselves. It seems everytime someone goes against svg’s offense, or bigs up BB, it strikes you as pain and a personal attack.

IT’S MY OPINION.

This is a blog/forum to where anyone who’s a fan can leave a comment being a like/dislike. I don’t have to “think” like you do, so chill out.

So please, keep your attacks (GoMagicGo, MagicMark and The Dark -as well as a few others) to yourselves.

by REP96st on Jul 20, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Says the dude with the wheelchair sig” is certainly more of an attack than anything I have said in this thread.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

and you ryan anderson supporters act like hes gonna be a superstar..hes gonna be nothing more than a real good bench player

by jiggadpg00 on Jul 20, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think he’ll be a superstar. I think he’ll be a starter at some point if he continues developing. Within the Magic system, that’s more than Bass will be. Bass could easily start for quite a few NBA teams, but he doesn’t provide what the Magic need. Anderson does. That’s not a criticism of Bass, it’s just recognition that he’s not a good fit.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's got the skills to be a very solid starter.

He’s obviously a gifted outside scorer, and has the skills to be an above-average rebounder and a valid post scoring threat. (At least on putbacks and the like.) His passing is nothing special, but he’s not a liability either. Defense is the question mark, of course — but his team defense is perfectly good. He just needs to polish up his one-on-one skills.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting statement

…‘cause I’ve always thought the opposite.

but his team defense is perfectly good. He just needs to polish up his one-on-one skills.
Imo, good one-on-one defender, but lost in a our team scheme.

Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."

by magicfaninTN on Jul 20, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whoops. You were talking about Anderson, not Bass.

My mistake. In such case, I agree with you.

Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."

by magicfaninTN on Jul 20, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

remember when bass

had that glorious sequence in the boston series? the last ninety seconds of the half he committed like 3 turnovers and a foul. that was cool

Nah' mean, nah'm sayin

by Dr Things on Jul 20, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, Ryan has at least two dimensions.

The three-point shot, and defensive rebounding. He’s developing a post game as well.

If you’re comparing him to Bass, you can probably add defensive rotations and passing the ball occasionally to that list.

Yes, his one-on-one defense needs work. But the best way to fix that is to give him the work. Meanwhile, Bass is no-dimensional at this point — there isn’t a single thing he did well last year, or even adequately.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s not quite fair – Bass was #3 on the team in offensive rebound rate, behind Howard and Gortat.

And he made 92.6% of his dunks.

Other than that, I got nothin’, but he crashes the offensive glass and dunks pretty good.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Offensive rebounding is of minimal importance.

To me, his relatively high offensive rebounding stats say less “he’s good at this” and more “he’s neglecting getting back on defense, which the PF is supposed to do in the Magic’s defensive scheme.”

Doubly inexcusable considering that he has trouble keeping up with the D when he’s not late getting back.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was only the guards and SF that release to defend the break.

and it’s just that Rashard is our PF and not a league-leading glass crasher. Or am I mistaken and all rebounds are left for only the C?

Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."

by magicfaninTN on Jul 20, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to see some stats

Showing what proportion of rebounds are available, on average, to Cs and PFs in the NBA. I have an entirely unproven theory that the main reason Lewis gets so few rebounds is that Dwight’s sucking them all up. Say on average, 30% of rebounds are snagged by a C and a PF between them – and Dwight’s rebounding rate is around 22% (which is was last season). That would mean that, on average, there’d only be around 8% available for Lewis (which is about his rebounding rate with Orlando.)

Lewis actually rebounded at a higher rate with Seattle than he does here, despite playing SF there. I don’t think he’s a bad rebounder overall – I just think Dwight’s eating his rebounding lunch.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 4:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Curse you for making me curious ;)

OK, team-by-team for the East, the two bigs with the most minutes, and their ORB/DRB/TRB. It’ll be a bit crude, since they’re not playing all their minutes together, but it’ll give a very rough look at how good each team’s interior rebounders are:
Boston: Perkins/Garnett: 13.9/49.2/32.0
Toronto: Bargnani/Bosh: 14.5/41.1/28.1
New York: Lee/Harrington: 12.9/44.3/28.4
Philadelphia: Brand/Dalembert: 22.1/45.4/33.6
New Jersey: Lopez/Jianlian: 17.6/36.2/26.5

Cleveland: Varejao/Ilgauskas: 21.6/40.0/31.2
Milwaukee: Bogut/Ilyasova: 19.1/49.0/33.4
Chicago: Gibson/Noah: 24.5/46.7/35.8 (note: due to Noah’s injury, Miller had 25 more minutes)
Indiana: Murphy/Hibbert: 15.4/44.0/29.6
Detroit: Wallace/Villanueva: 19.3/42.7/30.3 (note: Jerebko hit the boards well also)

Orlando: Howard/Lewis: 15.1/43.4/29.8
Atlanta: Smith/Horford: 18.6/43.1/30.7
Miami: Beasley/Haslem: 15.4/43.6/29.6
Charlotte: Diaw/Chandler: 17.5/32.9/25.4 (note: Gerald Wallace is a beastly rebounder at SF. In case y’all hadn’t heard)
Washington: Blatche/Haywood: 22.0/40.4/31.1

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 21, 2010 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

So

The Eastern conference averages would be:

18/42.8/30.4

Which makes my assumed 30% look pretty good. And shows that whilst the Magic are marginally below average as a frontcourt boarding team, it’s not really substanial (less than 2%).

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Magic approach to offensive rebounds, like many things, is based on statistics.

It is much better to get back on defense than to go for the offensive rebound. In the Magic scheme, everyone gets back on defense.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 21, 2010 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Trade him. Package him away fast. This is the sort of attitude I don’t like. Matty Barnes AND MP were fine with either starting or coming off the bench. Sure they got more minutes than BB, but to be honest… BB looked so clumsy out there. He did some good things for us, but I just really wasn’t a fan. We have Ryan Anderson who can back up Rashard and I’m ok with that.

``There’s no need to quit. There’s no need to say that we’re going down fighting because we’re not going down. You just have to think positive and if you think negative you are going to lose. Like I told the guys in the locker room, `If anybody has any doubt, we’re not going to win. But if everybody’s on the same page and believes we’re going to win, then we’re going to win it.’’’ -Dwight Howard

by BleedingBlueSince89 on Jul 20, 2010 1:38 AM EDT reply actions  

That's the thing.

I feel like Ryan earned this job last year. It would be one thing if there was any reason to believe that Bass would surpass him, but Ryan has more potential to grow than Bass does, and is already better. Plus, Ryan fits the team’s style better, and he strikes me as a well-liked guy in the clubhouse. Not that Bass is a problem in the clubhouse… until now?… but Ryan strikes me as just more sociable. (Of course, I’m no insider.)

Basically, there’s no reason to believe that Bass will ever deserve time over Ryan. Or, for that matter, Rashard. I’m sure he can play somewhere, but the Magic already have two PFs ahead of him, one of whom is making $20 million a year, the other of whom is better and younger.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bass should start Rashard to 3 thats what I think

Bass should’ve played 25 minutes instead 13. I really disagreed with Stan not playing next him last year

by GoMagic000 on Jul 20, 2010 1:53 AM EDT reply actions  

+1

Rashard at the 3 would give us another option to post up besides just Dwight and expand the Magic Offense.

It also gives the Magic a guy in the starting lineup that can actually rival Dwight for toughness!

by ap3604 on Jul 20, 2010 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are a fool if you think moving Rashard to 3 and starting Bass somehow makes the Magic a “poor” defensive team. Last I checked the reigning TWO TIME defensive player of the year would still be at the 5 am I correct?

by gatorboi352 on Jul 20, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

its not cool to call the Blog Master a fool. Especially when he is right.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but Bass is a downgrade vs. Rashard on D at the 4...

…and Rashard is a downgrade vs. Pietrus or Richardson at the 3. They’s be a poorer defensive team.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Don’t mind the fact that stats and observations of the games back it up. In other news, it’s my opinion that Tyson Chandler is a better center than Dwight.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with this..

Not sure how you prove this either. Based on the minutes Shard played at the 3 he was fine at the 3. Shard needs to move positions.

FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account

by Wmillion on Jul 20, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Might sound funny, but I like that he said that. It means he’s not content sitting on the bench receiving a fat paycheck. He wants to play and contribute. Saying it in public though is a different matter. Coach Van Gundy does play the starters to much, and doesn’t utilize the bench to it max potential IMO. Bass was a bright spot with the limited minutes he received against Boston; the adjustment should have been ongoing. The 3 ball doesn’t go down on a nightly basis and the better defenses in the league know how to defend our style of ball, so changing it up with a more tradition PF isn’t a bad thing.

by Jimmys on Jul 20, 2010 2:04 AM EDT reply actions  

You do realize he plays horrible (maybe, overstatement but true) defense.

So you can keep knocking but won't knock me down
No love lost, no love found

by 4QB on Jul 20, 2010 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s not going to improve wasting away on the bench. Ryan Anderson is another. He had some decent games the last month of the season, but the minute the playoffs started, he was another not utilzed. I think its better to get these guys groomed during the season so the starters have there legs and the bench is game ready when it really counts. If an injury (god forbid) or an ejection during a playoff series happens, you want the guy coming in ready and seasoned.

by Jimmys on Jul 20, 2010 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

"horrible defense" is DEF an overused overstatement.

Much too easy to say ANY player players horrible defense without any links, stats, or rationals to back it up…

“Yeah Jameer plays horrible defense”
“Yeah Vince plays horrible defense”
“Yeah Ryan Anderson plays horrible defense”

Doesn’t really mean anything unless you explain it rationally.

by ap3604 on Jul 20, 2010 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, yes you have Ben. More than any other topic and any other player on the Magic, you continue to berate Brandon Bass on your blog.

Just look how many times you’ve commented on this story, let alone the Bass stories in general.

We get it. You don’t like him.

by gatorboi352 on Jul 20, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

We're all a community brotha'...

Trying to say BenQ is some dictator that you can’t talk to? uncalled for…

by ap3604 on Jul 20, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Talking to him’s fine – I’ve disagreed with Ben on stuff (although not on Stuff, I don’t think). The lack of respect for the person that runs the site is what’s uncalled for.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan Anderson

is not a good defender either… and he didn’t do anything after the first month of the season. He looked tentative/scared out there after the first month, especially against big time teams (most notably Cleveland)..

by jiggadpg00 on Jul 20, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was streaky after the first month. He consistently put in about 1 point per 2 minutes through December, with better than average game against Houston. In January he had good games against Minnesota, Chicago, Atlanta, and Sacramento, with a bad game against Indiana in the middle of that stretch. The rest of January was back at 1 point per 2 minutes. February was his only really bad month, only scoring double digits once. He sat most of March. His only two games with real minutes were against Minnesota and Denver, where he scored 38 points in 44 minutes. He had five games with real minutes in April, and scored well in four of the five. His playoffs were bad, but for a sophomore player, I think he did OK overall, and that he played well when he played at least 10 minutes for the whole season. The games he did poorly in were generally ones where he played 5 minutes or less, which would prevent many players from establishing a rhythm.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

His playoffs were better than Bass'.

Like, not even close. Neither one was an effective scorer, but Anderson led the entire team in rebounding rate during the playoffs, while Bass managed to average 1.1 rebounds in 5.8 minutes a game.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha wow

goin for any kind of stat to support ryan anderson…what did ryan anderson play? like 20 miniutes the whole playoffs? cmon man, thats a pretty pathetic stat to dig up

by jiggadpg00 on Jul 20, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

9.9 minutes per game, or a little less than twice as much as Bass.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha Awesome.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree the playoff stats for both players are too small a sample size to mean much...

…fortunately, there’s an entire regular season of stats on my side.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

And for the record...

…Anderson’s defensive rebounding numbers were always better than Bass’, and increased steadily as the season continued.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't agree that coach plays the starters too much.

in fact he gave starters less minutes in 09-10. compare that with previous 2 years when he didn’t have much of a bench.

You play the starters as much as possible in the playoffs. It’s win or go home. It’s not the time to practise.

by isum on Jul 20, 2010 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Big man rotation is 3 in the playoffs...

Having 5 quality big men is bound to cause some trouble.

4 is the max of starting quality big men you should have on a team. If you need a 5th it should be a Josh Powell level guy that know’s he isn’t a starter and doesn’t mind never playing…

by ap3604 on Jul 20, 2010 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why would Ben disagree?

In general rotations shorten in the playoffs, but Orlando doesn’t have as many players capable of playing two positions as many other teams.

I also find it amusing that some people are claiming Bass should play because other teams can throw five big men at Orlando, and then in the next topic people are saying Bass should play because five big men in a rotation is too many.

Obviously it’s different people making each argument, but I think it demonstrates why Bass isn’t played by Orlando – there aren’t really many strong arguments for him to play. On every countable metric, Anderson’s better which is why you need to find some intangible reason to get Bass out there, whether that be his “toughness” or team morale or “so he can improve” or whatever else.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

van Gundy doesn't play the starters too much

Not a single Orlando player averaged over 35 minutes per game last season, and three bench players averaged over 20 minutes per game.

For comparison, Cleveland played James in 39 minutes per game and all their “starters” played at least 28 minutes per game (more than Orlando’s starters).

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 4:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe we just have to trade him..

The NETS is like my own sense of direction..
The MAGIC made me realize that one..

by silenthero07 on Jul 20, 2010 3:08 AM EDT reply actions  

I wish.

The question is, what do we need in return? We already have 2 PGs, 4 wing players, and 4 big men (who aren’t Bass. Or, for that matter, Orton.)

Given his contract, Bass probably isn’t a big enough trade chip to make a difference in a 2-for-1 trade for an upgraded starter — if we’d even want that.

We can’t plausibly upgrade the backup C or SG positions. Duhon (who’s also really good for a backup) just got signed, so the Magic are presumably running with him. Which leaves Pietrus and Anderson… neither of whom, let’s face it, needs to be upgraded either.

Maybe someone would offer a draft pick or picks for Bass?

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah.. I guess it would have to be a draft pick for Bass and some cash.

But i think he will stay in Orlando for another year.

The NETS is like my own sense of direction..
The MAGIC made me realize that one..

by silenthero07 on Jul 20, 2010 6:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its not a coincidence that Bass waited to make these comments until after Otis made them.

Yes he will be better in ‘10 and if you haven’t watched his play, he is really a poor man’s Milsap, who is a poor man’s Boozer. He will be fine. My prediction is we will get Melo next season. Shard can no longer play SF so he is redundant with Ryan. He will be gone next season and with Vince gone, we will find a way to afford Carmelo. I know the Brass hates me here, but mark my word. And with everyone playing for the Heat, Melo has got to want to battle those boys on a competitive team. Why not the Magic?

Life's too short. Be a fan. Orlando Magic, Arizona Cardinals,Tampa Bay Rays and of course "the U"! What a winning combo.

by hevchv on Jul 20, 2010 6:40 AM EDT reply actions  

ive been thinking the same thing....we have enough bait for a sign and trade next year or like you say with a few of these large contracts, i.e. vince carter, gone...we should have enough bring melo's talents to orlando

Just one man's opinion...
"mark my words...we will draft 2 corners within the first 4 picks" - 2009
"mark my words...we will draft 4 new linebackers this off-season" - 2010

by hwyatt3 on Jul 20, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

How often did Bass' man get rebounds.

If memory serves correctly, he usually boxed his man out instead of going for the rebound. That is not the same as not being able to rebound. When he did jump for rebounds, he was pretty aggressive and savy at getting them. But I could be wrong. No harm no foul.

Life's too short. Be a fan. Orlando Magic, Arizona Cardinals,Tampa Bay Rays and of course "the U"! What a winning combo.

by hevchv on Jul 20, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

You just described Rashard Lewis' role in defensive rebounding. Rebounding percentages don't lie. Bass is not a great defensive rebounder.

He is a so-so offensive rebounder in a system that absolutely does not want people other than Dwight Howard going after offensive rebounds in order to get back on transition defense.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that's why I say Shard is expendable.

He is redundant with RA. Too bad we can’t get rid of him this season. Not that anyone agrees with me.

Life's too short. Be a fan. Orlando Magic, Arizona Cardinals,Tampa Bay Rays and of course "the U"! What a winning combo.

by hevchv on Jul 20, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

My first reaction was a knee-jerk thought of "well, then, trade the bum"

On second thought, this could be a positive. If SvG and Otis impress on him that the way to earn more playing time is to learn the system and his role within it, he could be a useful role player. He’s not going to be a starter, and he’ll be a platooned backup 4/5, but his athleticism is better than Anderson’s, and he does fit certain matchups better physically if he plays within the system. He won’t stretch the floor like Rashard or Ryan, but I can still see a couple ways for him to contribute on offense.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 7:28 AM EDT reply actions  

This really sours my opinion of him

If you want to be traded, then fine. But don’t go public with it. All you accomplish by doing so is you hurt the team… his trade value isn’t as high when other teams know he wants out. It puts the Magic in a weaker position if they decide to shop him.

by RussL on Jul 20, 2010 8:18 AM EDT reply actions  

I have never problem with a player fighting for PT

but he’s crossing the line here. “I won’t go through what I did last season.” Really? That’s the red flag for me. Learn the damn system Brandon, fight for PT in practice not the media.

In all fairness though, Wade was severely misqouted by Povtak this week. I’ve read Povtak for years and I appreciated his days back at the Sentinel, but naturally I must take a grain of salt with this.

One Freaken Second

by magic fanatic on Jul 20, 2010 9:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Dont be too hard on Brandon

You beat me to it MagicMark. I dont recall the fans reacting too negatively to JJs statements a couple of years ago. Plus, Brandon is right. He took a while (the entire regular season) but he did start to catch on and looked good at times during the playoffs. Its tough for a player and a team to use one type of system against 28 teams, then switch when you are faced with a frontline like Boston or LAs. Ultimately Brandon has to earn his time and judging by SVGs late season and playoff rotations he saw something he liked in practice that made him go with Brandon over Anderson.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 20, 2010 9:11 AM EDT reply actions  

I remember there not being much discussion when JJ asked for a trade, because the general consensus among the fans I knew at the time was that he should be traded, he was a bust, and he’d never develop into anything but a spot shooter with no other offensive ability who was a significant defensive liability.

I’m happy now that we were just a wee bit off.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I recall people chanting JJ, JJ, JJ

At games I attended his first 2 seasons with the Magic and the guy hadnt done jack at the time. SVG is no push over, he makes guys earn their time and hopefully Brandon backs up his oral diarrhea with some hard work.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 20, 2010 9:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Consistency

That’s all Bass is asking for, give the guys mins. If he doesn’t peform to the likes of the coaching staff and mgmt, then ship him. But other than that, Bass deserves PT.

by HustlerInc on Jul 20, 2010 10:11 AM EDT reply actions  

I think we’ve got a potential philosophical debate here – I don’t think anyone ever “deserves” PT. They might earn it with their work, but deserving it suggests it’s a privilege. It ain’t. It’s a job, and you use the best worker you have to complete the job. If that’s Bass, that’s Bass. If it’s not, it’s not.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

Couldn’t agree more. If Bass wants to play, he needs to prove he’s good enough.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

But inconveniently enough...

…we already have a better backup PF who is suffering due to a lack of consistent minutes.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Better put on some asbestos underwear. That comment is just begging for some scorching responses.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

I think it’s pretty self-evident that Ryan plays better when his minutes are consistent and guaranteed.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

In SVG We Trust

We dont see everything that goes on in practice. SVG will put the best guy on the floor, I have no doubt about that. Hes a freakin basketball genius and has forgotten more about the game than any of us will ever know.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 20, 2010 10:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Please enlighten me

I know a 16 or 18 ft jump shot doesnt stretch the court as much as a corner three from a 4, but wouldnt it stretch the floor nonetheless? Horace Grant made a living hitting the same shot from the top of the key.. and if i remember correctly it worked out pretty good for shaq. Maybe bass isn’t worth changing the offense for but wouldnt that be an additional wrinkle that opposing teams have to prepare for? I mean Im sure Rhino can hit that same shot as well so it wouldnt just be for bass. what am i missing?

by Kevin Lin on Jul 20, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

There are 2 problems with that shot – first, it doesn’t stretch the floor as much. That’s the lesser problem. Second, it’s less efficient. Quickly breaking down the numbers from HoopData for average points per shot from ranges for the NBA as a whole last year:
At rim: 1.220
<10 ft: 0.882
10-15 ft: 0.796
16-23 ft: 0.792
>23 ft: 1.064

So, the least efficient shot is 16-23 feet, and 10-15 isn’t much better. That extra few feet of range nets you about a quarter of a point more per shot, because of the third point if you make it. The best places to shoot are at the rim and from three. Anything else is less efficient, and should primarily be used as a change of pace to keep the defense honest or to avoid a turnover.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's true that the long 2 is less efficient globally, but that statement, standing alone, is not very instructive.

The relevant metric is a particular player’s efficiency shooting the long 2. And for some players — Paul Pierce comes to mind — the long 2 can be a highly effective shot. (Note that the shooting percentage of a particular player is not necessarily motonic; that is, because a particular player is effective at shooting long 2, that player would nor necessarily be even more effective if he shot closer to the rim).

With respect to strategy, the long 2 does not stretch the floor as much as a 3 but can keep defenses more off-balance (in part because of change of pace and in part because a shooter in that position has greater passing options than when he is in 3-point territory).

by gift of the magi on Jul 20, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here's the deal

The league average for 3-point shots is 35.6%, or 1.068 points per shot. To match that poins per shot from 2-point range would require hitting 53.4%. The league average for 2-point shotsfrom 10-23 feet is 40.7% and very few could hit 53%. Paul Pierce hit 36% of his 10-15 foot shoots and 38% of his 16 to 23 foot shots. and 41.4% of his 3’s..

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Skimming quickly, there are very few players with higher 16-23 than >23 PPS ratings, and fewer still that played a majority of games. Those few include:
Matt Barnes (81 games, 1.000 to 0.958)
Carlos Arroyo (72 games, 0.960 to 0.840)
Sonny Weems (69 games, 0.940 to 0.400)
Kevin Garnett (69 games, 0.920 to 0.600)
Marquis Daniels (51 games, 0.920 to 0.642)
Paul Millsap (82 games, 0.900 to 0.334)
Derrick Rose (78 games, 0.880 to 0.802)

Most of these aren’t known for being great shooters anyway, and with the exception of Weems, Daniels, and the PFs, the differences aren’t large.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

To address that, let's look at Bass, compared to our other PFs

Bass:
Rim – 1.264 PPS
<10 ft – 0.786 PPS
10-15 ft – 0.958 PPS
16-23 ft – 0.860 PPS
>23 ft – 0.000 PPS

Lewis:
Rim – 1.078 PPS
<10 ft – 0.976 PPS
10-15 ft – 0.912 PPS
16-23 ft – 0.780 PPS
>23 ft – 1.192 PPS

Anderson:
Rim – 1.176 PPS
<10 ft – 0.500 PPS
10-15 ft – 1.000 PPS
16-23 ft – 0.520 PPS
>23 ft – 1.110 PPS

So, let’s look at their longest-ranged shots:
Bass – 16-23 ft, 0.860 PPS
Lewis – >23 ft, 1.192 PPS
Anderson – >23 ft, 1.110 PPS

Bass is surrendering a quarter of a point per shot to Anderson, as both exceed the league average by about the same amount. He’s surrendering 1/3 of a point per shot to Lewis. Yes, Bass is better than average at the long 2, but Anderson and Lewis are both better than average at the 3, which is more valuable.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good stuff.

This post applies the statistics with precision and therefore helps makes a point. (There remain, however, valid strategic questions about the relative merits of long 2s and 3-point shots — to which we both allude non-exhaustively above and which could, in certain contexts, make a less efficient shot more valuable — that invite further analysis.)

As for Paul Pierce, he shot a career-best from the 3-point line this past season, but there have been seasons in the past when the 2- and 3-point comparison has been a decidedly closer call for him. In any case, it does not follow that a player should take more of a certain type of shot because he is more efficient at that shot, again because of strategic considerations. (A player who decides take more 3-point shots may sacrifice efficiency because, among other things, his shooting patterns become more predictable. I don’t claim that Pierce or Bass suffered this particular fate; I make this point instead to suggest a more cautionary approach towards this debate.)

by gift of the magi on Jul 20, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

It certainly could happen; my preferred change of pace if the defender is anticipating and closes out quickly would be a drive against the aggressive defender, but depending on the floor spacing, there are times the step-in-and-shoot makes the most sense. I would say that as a general rule shots at the rim and from deep are preferable; the individual circumstances may cause a situation where that is not the case, but those are unique cases, not universally applicable.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep. Orlando averaged 18.2 shots per game between 10 and 23 feet last season. The NBA average was 27.7 per game. In fact, we were below average everywhere except from 3.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not surprising

We did attempt/make a record number of three pointers for an nba season.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

You make some good points. We might also consider from where on the floor is it more efficient/easier to pass or shot off of a screen for a particular player — and I think those considerations complicate that analysis a bit — but I’ve probably said my peace for today.

by gift of the magi on Jul 20, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not talking about Bass.

If you read this particular thread, the discussion is about how to tease out the effectiveness of 2- and 3-point shots for any particular player, not for Bass specifically.

The discussion about Bass on this board has rarely been interesting, so I don’t engage it any further here.

by gift of the magi on Jul 20, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why is this guy talking?

Learn from JJ, demanding for a trade didnt do anything…there was a reason he wasn’t playing. Bass should go work on his basketball IQ and then maybe he’ll get some minutes.

"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.

by KingJafi on Jul 20, 2010 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Bass is not good in the Magic's system.

But Bass is good in about 80% of the other systems in the league. Trade him. Let’s get value for him.

by The Stan 'Stache on Jul 20, 2010 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

The diffence between JJ and Bass

is that his style of play fits the system here and BB’s doesn’t. He should’ve seen the writing on the wall, he knows he can’t hit a three to save his life. ..oh yeah and to say " I’m not going through this again" is ridiculous, he has no say. I say trade him to the Clippers for Watson

by paching on Jul 20, 2010 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Ridiculous

All I hear is that Bass doesn’t fit the system. Excuses Excuses lol. This 4-1 system hasn’t proved anything. Find another copout excuse.

by HustlerInc on Jul 20, 2010 11:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, just having Dwight will get the team to the 2nd round—Stretch 4 offense or not. No, I’m not content with winning a large amount of games with no ‘ship to show for it, but it looks like the general consensus is that it’s better than only winning a handful of games; same result. So what do you do right?

Remember when:

"VC is a definite upgrade…Barnes is more efficient in the SL than…we have 4 all-stars; pick your poison…we’ve upgraded every position so…" LOL. How many more upgrades do we have to keep trading for? At some point, the only upgrades possible will be Chris Paul, Dwade, LeBron James, and Dirk Nowitsky and we’ll probably still see the stretch 4 offense.

Like I said, it’s ALL DWIGHT. As long as he’s here, he’ll get scrubs to the 2nd round. But can SVG draw up a plan to effectively use his non-top 10 (in the league) players? I mean other than stand at the 3-point line and shoot if they’re open. I’m not so sure. He should be able to take any player on his roster and make him useful in some way.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, what's wrong with SVG not teaching Bass to use his brain?

What kind of coach is that?

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not funny

Sarcasm really isn’t necessary. Sometimes Dwight lacks certain fundamentals. He’s a great player but not above coaching. A coach observes the game and explains to players how they can be more useful if you didn’t know. If players just figured it out, there’d really be no point in having a coach on the sideline.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

So we have the second best defensive efficiency for two years running

and somehow when one person fails to grasp the concept of this system, it is automatically the coaches fault. Yes everyone makes mistakes every once in a while. But Bass rarely DOESN’T make mistakes, which is why people here are so harsh on him.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope

when one person fails to grasp the concept of this system, it is not automatically the coaches fault. However, when every other player can grasp the concept of this system but don’t win a Championship, it’s the coaches fault.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope

I’m saying the coach that beat him was better.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

'Cause the coaches are the ones on the floor....

….who put the ball in the hoop? Aren’t you forgetting to factor in the players to your equation?

Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case
"...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."

by magicfaninTN on Jul 20, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

When responding, is it possible to infer that players being a part of the equation is implied? Is that too far of a reach? Unless you really think that I believe that the coaches are out there on the floor playing against one another. If that’s the case, let me be clear. I don’t think that. I was saying that the coach decides HOW to use his players. I acknowledge that players excel in different areas and some are just flat out better than most others (ex. Kobe). For example, I don’t think that the Heat, despite having LeBron & Wade will win all 82 games next season (they might, but it’s MY OPINION that they won’t). And for the sake of clarity, I’m not saying that Spoelstra (or Riley) isn’t a good coach for every time they don’t win a game, I’m saying that in those games that are lost, the other team was prepared (by their coach) offensively and defensively enough as a team to pull it off.

At this point, it doesn’t even matter anymore. Whoever reads this, can believe whatever he/she wants to believe. I think the talent on the roster was enough to win a Championship the last two years. Stretch 4 has had its success. I never denied that. But there’s no reason to believe that they wouldn’t have just as much success if they played "Traditional" ball. They’re solid, healthy players. More movement, more activity with communication could help—or it could be detrimental. What I’ve noticed is that the 4-1 offense seems to inhibit it, so it’s irrelevant anyway.

Lord only knows what type of one-lined, condescending, exaggerated interpretation of this comment will be posted, but that seems to be OPP comment response protocol so…have at it.

And MagicMark please keep it moving. Although this blog is about Bass, this comment in particular IS NOT. Even though you may find something within the post that may lead you to believe that it is, I am telling you it IS NOT. I’m a Magic fan. Win or lose, that’s my team.

by shyro25 on Jul 21, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Woe is me? I thought they were good enough to win a Championship. I’m not losing sleep because they didn’t.

by shyro25 on Jul 21, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he's won one at all,

surely you’d give him the benefit of the doubt. Up to you. Could he win one with our roster? I’d say he could. What say you?

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately he isn't our coach, and never will be. We have Stan. He is a good enough coach to get his players to the playoffs.

Once they are there, it is their job to go out and win the games. They did not do that against the Celtics.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know how you asked me earlier if I was saying Jerry Sloan is a bad coach?

What if I responded to you by saying “so you’re saying SVG is a bad coach?” It’d read pretty stupid right? I never said SVG was a bad coach. However, by your logic, you just said that the players aren’t good players. “It is their job to go out and win the games. They did not do that…”

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have been saying that for the last month and a half since we were eliminated.

People were in here calling for Otis and SVG’s heads after we lost to Boston. It was incredible to me that they put so much blame on the management and coaches, when it was the players who went out and played horribly. We only got steady contribution from Dwight and JJ. Everyone else was either up and down (VC/Nelson/Lewis), or their production was non-existant (everyone not mentioned above).

Our team has good players, but too many of them played terribly in the ECF, and we lost. It is as simple as that. We were beat by a team that was playing better than we were at that point in time.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

With our personnel, I’m not sure. The triangle offense is predicated on having a particular kind of player, and I don’t think we have that. I think he could win over time after adjusting the roster, but again, I’m not 100% certain. He’s never won without an elite guard – either MJ or Kobe. As much as I like our team, we don’t have anyone even approaching that level at the small/swing positions.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh. Don’t I just wish. Although I’m still more down with Wade+Bosh or LBJ+Bosh. I’m not totally sold (yet) on LBJ and Wade being able to thrive together, though I wouldn’t be surprised to be proven wrong.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe.

But so could Stan. They’ve been a championship-level team for two years now. But just because a team is good enough to win a championship doesn’t mean they’ll always do it. You put them against another championship-level team, and one of those teams is going to lose.

You can’t act as though,, when one team beats another team, it was a foreordained conclusion, or it’s indicative of some universal timeless truth. Basketball games are like dice rolls… you can get favorable odds, but you still have to roll the dice.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand the argument...

But it leaves out one factor- the other team. If every team existed in a vacuum, then yes, the blame would be on the coach. We can’t blame every system and every other coach other than the Champions. It’s always a combination factors. I thought Doc did a very good job with the Celtics in the playoffs (especially against the Magic). I think our defense was weak. But that’s not all Stan’s fault. Look at the two series before. We played great (admittedly against lesser competition). If we beat the Celtics and go on to the Finals, this no one argues against the system. No way is one man (Stan) or the system to blame. It’s still a competition.

by The Stan 'Stache on Jul 20, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, I won't blame SVG

I only questioned how he’d fare if Dwight wasn’t the force that he is. People decided to throw out a little sarcasm, and what-ifs so I responded as best as I could. I think I confused someone. I don’t know how, but I’ve somehow managed to suggest that SVG and Jerry Sloan are bad coaches and that Phil Jackson is the ONLY good coach in the league.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said SVG, as a coach, should be able to take any player--bench or otherwise, and make him useful.

How exactly do you get that I’m saying it’s his fault Bass doesn’t know the defensive rotations? Seriously, if I have to clarify everything for you, maybe you should just ignore ALL posts by shyro25. It could save us a lot of back and forth.

Some coaches can do more with less. Some can’t. Liabilities can be masked. Is it worth it to the team that has 2 or 3 other PFs that do well? Probably not. But at no time did I say Brandon Bass can’t grasp the concept of…and it’s all SVGs fault.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah well

my response to “NO Championship” applied to the Magic, with or without Bass in the lineup. If Bass never sees the floor again in a Magic uniform, that’s not going to change my mind. It’s not a personal plea—pro Bass. I believe that the past two seasons with Dwight Howard, the Magic should have been able to win a Championship regardless of who you filled in around him.

You decided to take it one step further and conclude from my statement that I said SVG must make everyone better through magic. Identifying weaknesses in a player’s game and trying to help them overcome them is hardly demanding “magic.”

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is it Stan's responsibility to make sure a player can understand when to rotate in his defensive system? These guys are professionals

They SHOULD be able to learn. Stan shouldn’t have to change the defense so one guy who doesn’t get it (and didn’t learn the system after an entire season worth of practices) can overcome his “weaknesses”. Bass is a hustle/energy player. Probably not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He won’t fit unless he gets better in the defensive system. Then he can settle in to the bench role of providing energy and hustle, which is what he does best.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right. It's as much Stan's responsibility to do all that stuff you just said

as much as it is my responsibility to carefully explain what I wished to convey in the original post (a response to not winning a championship even though I believe we had the personnel get one) that begat this tangent. Nil.

I’m done.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which puts us in line with 28 other teams.

You know how many different teams have won in my lifetime? 7. And I’m probably one of the older board members. Since I’m not a fan of LA, Miami, San Antonio, Detroit, Houston, Chicago, or Boston, I haven’t seen my team win a championship. That would be just as true if I was a New York fan, an Indiana fan, or any other team except those seven. Yes, a championship is the goal, but to not achieve it is not unexpected.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

69 systems

In the past two seasons haven’t won a championship.

Most of those systems haven’t got a team to the Finals and the East finals. Ours has.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 4:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its a good system

against 28 of the 30 NBA teams over the last 2 seasons. Its those 2 that it didnt that kills us. And you are right, we are spoiled with the success of the Magic over that time span. I dont know whats more heartbreaking: watching your favorite team go 20 and 62 or watching your favorite team fall short of a championship by 3 games.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 20, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ask any Nets fan that question

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you arguing that falling short of the Finals is worse than losing 62 games?

If we lost 62 games, we would have no Amway Center, no playoff revenue to go over the cap, no support, no buzz around town, no hope. All excitement for the Magic and Orlando would be null.

I loved the Heart and Hustles years. I DO NOT want to relive them.

by The Stan 'Stache on Jul 20, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously winning is better, just posing the question.

But the Magic success had NOTHING to do with getting the new arena. That is the only bit of “insider” information I have concerning the Magic. It had alot more to do with Rosen and the other hoteliers on I-Drive not paying their property taxes according to law. Anyone notice how they dropped their opposition to the new arena so suddenly?

by Ajax2771 on Jul 20, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

I don’t know much about the Amway Center or the politics behind it… and it’s off topic. So I’ll move on. But I don’t see how Bass pushes us past the Celtics last year. We played poorly. We lose the series with or without Bass.

by The Stan 'Stache on Jul 20, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Brandon Bass was not the key to that series.

To win we would have required solid contributions from any of the following players who did not perform up to expectations for the entire series (obviously emphasis on entire): Anyone not named Dwight Howard or JJ Redick. EVERYONE else on the entire team had either an up and down series (read: Nelson/Carter/Lewis) Carter and Lewis weren’t even that great when they did play “better”. Or they had a completely awful series (read: everyone else). We got essentially zero production from Barnes and the entire bench whose names weren’t JJ.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I seriously dought he'll convince SVG to change his coaching

 with his rants so….trade him SVG ain’t going nowhere soon

by paching on Jul 20, 2010 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

He signed on the dotted line, it's a contract

He has no say. He might get more time if he talks to management. What he did is try to force a trade

by paching on Jul 20, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Is it possible that Brandon meant that he’ll work hard enough to get on the floor?

“I’m one of the hardest working guys on the team, so hopefully I’ll have a bigger role next season,‘’ Bass said. "Right now, I’m just working on my game, trying to get better. I don’t worry about things like trades. I won’t go through again what I did last season.’’

Or maybe even, that he won’t go through worrying "about things like trades?"

In this context, the last statement reads more positive than negative.

I do hope he gets traded though, to a team with more supportive fans. I’m curious to see (if SVG is still around) after Dwight leaves if he’ll be able to design/run a different offense. One that utilizes the strengths of each player the team does have. One that is strong enough to beat ANY team—not just those with average front lines.
 

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Is that what you get from my post?

If I thought we had a bad team, I wouldn’t bother to watch them at all. I think there is some great talent on our team. I just think that there’s more to role playing than shooting 3s. For example, look at Fat Baby Glen Davis. Surely he’s not the most capable scorer, not the most athletic, not the highest Bball IQ on the Celtics, but he was able to step in and make things happen. He and KG have completely different games. Yet, coaching was able to utilize the skills he does have. Same thing with Tony Allen. The Celtics have 1 sharpshooter in Ray Allen. What 3-pointers they get from Paul Pierce are extra. Yes, they’re future HOFs but I’m willing to bet that Doc Rivers and Tom Thibodeaux would’ve gotten the city of Orlando a Championship with this roster. Of course, we’ll never know, but…

And, we didn’t play badly in the playoffs. We played our game (Dwight post up, look for the open man; some VC isos) but Boston kicked our butts.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it's not amazing.

His roster is full of talent. He utilized it. It’s a pretty simple concept actually. The talent wasn’t there when he won ~20 games. He had Paul Pierce and some other folk—some of whom are no longer in the league. Not so amazing after all is it? I think we have great talent on the Magic roster. It’s not out of the realm of possibility for me to believe that they’d have the same results as the Celtics did in ’08 if they were coached by the two mentioned above and they ran the same type of offense/defense.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here’s the deal, though. Brandon Bass is not “a good player whose skills don’t fit the Magic’s scheme.” Van Gundy designed plays for Bass’ style of play — mid-range jump shot plays, etc. Bass proceeded to hog the ball, miss rotations constantly, and not rebound. None of that is stuff that the coach has control over. That is stuff that Bass is either doing wrong, or not understanding, or both.

There is no defensive scheme in which being constantly out of position is the right move.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ummmm...

More supportive fans? Dwight Howard leaving?

by The Stan 'Stache on Jul 20, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I appreciate the work he puts in.

When he has a bad game…he’s still my man. He may be leaving in a few years, or he may not. As long as he’s here, I support him as a Magic player. Just as I’ll support Chris Duhon, just as I’ll support Jameer Nelson, just as I’ll support Quentin Richardson, Daniel Orton, Rashard Lewis, Mickael Pietrus…anyone on the roster. Is that clear enough?

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

We support Brandon, but he has got to help himself. No one else can do it for him.

If he cannot learn the system here that ALL of the other players understand and employ, don’t blame anyone but Brandon. We don’t doubt his hustle or effort, it just is not enough to try hard, you have to achieve.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear you

The statement The Stan ’Stache is referring to was really specific to Bass. I meant I hoped that wherever he goes, he does well and the people that support his new team, support him as well.

I appreciate the fact that Bass as a free agent, chose to come to Orlando. He came because he thought that he could be a valuable asset to our team. He didn’t work (or isn’t working) out, but he had the option to go elsewhere and that means a lot to me as a fan. Be clear, I’m not saying the Magic owe him playing time because he could’ve gone to Team B. But for me, loyalty goes both ways. Some fans flip out when players leave their busted team to play for a better team (LA anyone?) but we are quick to have a “what have you done for me lately” attitude when they struggle. “You suck, you’re too dumb to play for my team…I want you gone for someone better.”

It’s cool though. As long as he’s on this team, he’s my man.

by shyro25 on Jul 20, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clarification-

I thought that was a backhanded comment towards Magic fans… no harm, no foul.

Bass is a good guy. I’m sure. I really enjoyed watching him play in Dallas. Personally, I think he is more valuable as a trade piece than our 11th man. Let’s get VALUE for a guy who can’t contribute here and can contribute somewhere else.

by The Stan 'Stache on Jul 20, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, Brandon.

“Look at the series (against Boston when the Magic lost). I was just what was missing.” Thank you very much for your -8 in 9 minutes against Boston in Game 4. You were truly the deciding factor. Had nothing at all to do with Jameer and Dwight finally clicking and going off. Nope.

Brandon Bass apologists are almost as bad as LeBron apologists after “The Decision”.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 12:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Look..

“STATS” don’t mean BB didn’t do Jack against the Celtics. -Nor does it mean we won because of him. But when he was playing, it mattered.

by REP96st on Jul 20, 2010 1:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Didn't he alter a couple of Garnett and Davis's shots?

And by the way Mark, game four, BB scored just as much as Vince Carter 3 points, in just 11 minutes of play, while Carter played close to 31 minutes.

by REP96st on Jul 20, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defensively, maybe.

That’s the sole reason why he didn’t get much playing time. Besides, Isn’t the playoff where it really COUNTS??

by REP96st on Jul 20, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defensively. And rebounding. And passing.

And as a scorer, he was mediocre — between his lack of a three-point shot, his reliance on long two-pointers and his lack of skill at drawing fouls, he just doesn’t have a very efficient style of offense. Which isn’t a horrible problem…

…except when offense is his only alleged strong point.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're in trouble when you're trying to make your point to support Bass...

By comparing him to Vince’s Boston series.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

JJ did the same thing

and everyone was blasting him for the same reasons. I actually like it. I don’t want Rasheeds; guys who just say CTC. Its nice to get paid, but NBA players should want to play.

I think he fits the team against certain matchups. He seemed to be the better backup PF in the playoffs. But I will keep saying it until a trade happens; a 30 million dollar bench is way too much.

"A man has got to have a code." -Bunk, Season 1; Omar, Season 4.

by L Magico on Jul 20, 2010 1:07 PM EDT reply actions  

We're not gonna miss the playoffs if BB plays at PF

give him a chance… A REAL chance.

When he dunked the ball that one play and shook the rim, that was frustration and relief all mixed in one… He’s just a player that wants to play.

by REP96st on Jul 20, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions  

And??

Until the 4-1 system nets us a ring. Then can people bring up who and who doesn’t fit the ‘system’.

by HustlerInc on Jul 20, 2010 1:22 PM EDT reply actions  

How many teams have stretch 4's as good as Rashard?

Conversely, how many teams have a PF as big and skilled as Gasol? I’ll tell you right now the Magic certainly don’t.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

It’s not about the system it’s about the personnel. Put Gasol on Orlando and Rashard on LA and see what happens. Gasol is simply a better player than Rashard because he’s a 7’ versatile offensive player with great passing and less holes in his overall game. Rashard struggling with post defense is a big hole and teams with the personnel to expose it try to do so over, and over and over again.

It doesn’t mean the stretch 4 doesn’t work it just means said player is better than the other. Gasol > Odom. Gasol > Rashard. Dirk being the stretch 4 in Orlando is probably better than if Gasol was playing traditional 4 in Orlando.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remind me where exactly I state that "Orlando lost to Boston in the ECF entirely because of Rashard's post-defense"

You’re really going to debate with me over Rashard’s post defense? I shouldn’t have reduced Rashard’s struggles to simply “Post Defense”, you’re correct. I should’ve said something like “Rashard’s post defense is only part of the problem, those same players he struggles to defend in the post, he struggles just as mightily to score on them or keep them off the glass”.

Garnett got basically any shot he wanted at any time. Him missing those shots doesn’t mean he was defended well which is what you’re implying.

Garnett avg 8 rpg in 32 minutes. Rashard abg 5.8 rpg in 36 minutes. Garnett avg 2.3 ast to Rashard’s 1.8. Garnett avg 1.5 offensive boards per game.

The point of my original post which you obviously took offense to was that Rashard has more holes in his game than Pau Gasol so basing the success of a stretch 4 vs traditional PF should be entirely based on the personnel.

You’ve done nothing to prove otherwise.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Rashard struggling with post defense is a big hole"

This is the point I was covering. RPG and assists per game and offensive rebounds per game have absolutely nothing to do with post defense. Lewis is an average to slightly above average post defender since switching to the 4 spot here in Orlando three seasons ago.

Obviously I knew Gasol is better than Lewis, as is Garnett. No one in the league can defend Gasol. Only two people that come to mind are Duncan and Garnett, and they couldn’t even do it now. Maybe 2 years ago they could have, but not now. This shouldn’t be a knock on Rashard. No one can defend Gasol. Lewis certainly isn’t a defensive liability against 90% of the league at the 4 position.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't buy it

David West, Aldridge, Boozer, Duncan, Gasol, Garnett, Odom, Amare, Bosh, Jamison, Smoove, Blatche, Dirk & Randolph all give Rashard problems. That’s 13 of the other 29 starting PF’s in the NBA that give Rashard problems and the backup PF for the Lakers.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jamison? ...Blatche?

Odom? Is this the same Odom who averages less than 10 points a game? I’m sorry, but this is nonsense.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting, maybe but nonsense, hardly

Game log: 3/13/10 Magic vs Wizards
Blatche – 32/4/4/2/2 on 14-23 shooting
Rashard – 3/2 on 1-4 shooting 18 minutes of PT because he couldn’t stop Blatche or defend him without fouling
Bass – 16/9/1/1 in 30 minutes

1/8/2010 Magic vs Wizards
Jamison – 28/11/2/1 on 10-21 shooting
Rashard – 8/4/1/1 on 4-13 shooting

1/18/2010 Magic vs Lakers
Odom – 9/16/4/1 on 4-11 shooting. 6 offensive rebounds
Rashard – 18/5/1 on 6-11 shooting

3/7/2010 Magic vs Lakers
Odom – 8/6/4 on 3-7 shooting
Rashard – 12/6/3 (4 TO’s) on 4-13 shooting (all 3’s, he went 0-4 on non 3-point FG attempts).

2/11/2010 Magic vs Cavs
J.J. Hickson (just for fun) – 20/4/1 on 9-14 shooting
Rashard – 19/4 (0 Ast, 2 TO’s) on 6-14 shooting

2/21/2010 Magic vs Cavs
Jamison – 19/8/1/1 on 9-14 shooting
Rashard – 15/4/2/2 on 5-12 shooting

4/11/2010 Magic vs Cavs
Jamison – 19/6 on 8-16 shooting
Rashard – 11/1 (1 Ast, 2 TO’s) on 4-8 shooting

There’s a plethora of nonsense for you.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself -- it's less than 1/8 of a season of nonsense.

So what you’re saying is, Blatche (normally an incredibly inefficient scorer) had one fluky game against the Magic, which happened to coincide with an uncharacteristically bad game by Rashard. (During which Blatche was mostly defended by, yes, Brandon Bass.)

In the Magic’s two games against the Lakers this year, Odom averaged 8.5 points on 7-18 shooting. Rashard averaged 15 points on 10-24 shooting. That seems just about in line with their season averages, except that Odom usually shoots better.

And yes, Jamison had one good game and two solid/somewhat above-average games against the Magic this year. That’s three games. That’s meaningless as a sample size. But it’s the closest thing to evidence you have, and I’m feeling generous.

So, okay, let’s say Lewis tends to struggle a bit against Jamison. This means he’s obviously prone to being…

…overpowered in the post…

…by larger, more physical players, like…

…Antawn Jamison.

Wait, let’s try that again.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

The difference is Odom is a much, much better rebounder than Rashard.

He also has some skills that can be used to exploit Rashard, such as his ball-handling skills.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Coach Jackson puts candy behind the rim to motivate Odom.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

To be a stretch four, you have to be a good 3-point shooter.

@ less than 32% Odom is not. At nearly 40% Rashard is a much, much better 3-point shot than Odom.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The three-point shot was introduced in 1979-80

Four of the next five champions shot the three at a lower percentage than the league average (Boston in 1980-81 being the exception). Based on the rapid reaction of portions of the fan base here, teams should have immediately shunned the three point shot, as it was obviously a circus sideshow – experience clearly showed that teams that shot the 3 well didn’t win championships.
.
.
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.
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Two of the next three champions after that led the league in 3PT%.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan Anderson

earned the backup 4 spot during Rashard’s suspension. Bass also played well during that span but as the season progressed they found out he was a liability on defensive rotations. RA is a liability on post-up defense. Our starting 4 is a poor post-up defender and so is our backup 4. Bass is a better post-up defender than Rashard & Anderson but offensively he’s worse than both and much worse at defensive rotations. Rashard’s not going to improve his post-up defense but RA can and Bass can improve on his rotations. They both need more chances to prove themselves and Rashard needs to be moved to SF for short stretches so that should give RA/Bass an additional 5 minutes of PT or so per game. Hopefully they’re working extremely hard during the off season because that’s where the most improvement happens. I’m talking a 1,500 jump shot per day, Tracy McGrady like effort.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, Rashard is actually one of the better post-defenders in the league.

It’s his defensive rebounding he gets hammered on sometimes. Not many can guard Gasol or Amare, just as you said not many can guard Chris Paul or Deron Williams or Derrick Rose.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure though

David West, Aldridge, Boozer, Duncan, Gasol, Garnett, Odom, Amare, Bosh, etc. all seem to own Rashard. So is Rashard really an above average post up defender or is he simply an above average post up defender when facing below average offensive players?

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those guys play well against Rashard.

But are you saying they play markedly better than they do in general? Because I don’t think that’s a defensible argument.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm saying they play better against Rashard than they do against a traditional PF with a comparable skill level to Rashard's

He’s an All-Star as of recent so I can’t pretend he’s some average player and thus compare him to average players.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is some SEVERELY twisted logic.

That’s like saying Dwight Howard is a liability as a passer. What? He’s a perfectly solid passer for his position. Yes, but Dwight Howard is an All-NBA first team player. You can’t pretend he’s some average player. When you look at the other recent first-team guys — LeBron, Chris Paul, Kobe, Wade…

Wait, no, Dwight Howard earned his award for different skills than those other guys earned theirs. Never mind.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

It’s like saying Dwight Howard outperforms comparable players on a more consistent basis than Rashard. It’s like saying Jameer Nelson outperforms comparable players on a more consistent basis than Rashard. If I only compared Rashard to other stretch 4’s then my logic would be severly twisted. The logic is sound.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's based on all around performance

It’s just my personal opinion that Rashard has more holes in his game than most of the other high caliber PF’s. It’s not a knock on Rashard that his skills at the end of his prime are less than current top 10 PF’s but it does make things more difficult for the Magic winning a title. That’s all I’m trying to convey here.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I see what you're saying.

I thought you were saying he was a defensive liability because he was a worse defender than other All-Stars. Which would’ve been a pretty indefensible stance.

But yeah, go ahead with that then. I’m not saying at this point that Lewis is an All-Star. (Though I do think he’s better than what we saw last year.)

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looking at the first couple names among those players:
West has gone off on Rashard twice, for 27 and 40. The other four games they’ve directly matched up, he’s scored 14, 13, 14, and 18, below his average for those years of his career.

Aldridge has gone off once, scoring 25. Their other matchups, he scored 16, 12, 16, 3, and 14. The game where he scored 25, Lewis scored 27. Aldridge has outscored Lewis once, 16-6. Lewis has outscored him 20-16, 16-12, 27-25, 15-3, and 15-14.

Boozer’s probably had the most consistent success against Lewis, scoring 24, 15, 23, 20, and 17 in the five games they’ve played at PF. Still, that’s 99 points in 5 games, or 19.8 PPG, for a player that averaged 19.52. Boozer outperformed what would be expected by 1.4 points over five games. I don’t think that means Lewis is a horrible defender, to give up 1.4 points more than average over five games.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

For Boozer, he’s averaged 19.52 over the three seasons both have played at PF, not for his career, just to clarify.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

And defensive rebounding doesn't matter.

I mean, of course it matters. But the Magic led the league in defensive rebounding last year with Lewis in place. So it’s hardly a situation where there are much more rebounds to be gathered.

(But if you think there are, that’s an argument for Anderson, who’s a markedly better defensive rebounder than Bass, and seemed to improve steadily on the defensive boards through the season.)

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defensive rebounding didn't matter last year because we had statistically the second best rebounding Small Forward in the NBA to go along with the best rebounding C

That is going to change this coming season and Rashard’s lack of rebounding could very easily become a problem, especially against the likes of Boston and LA whom which even with Barnes, smashed us on the glass.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

And really, we're talking about fractions here.

Even if Richardson wasn’t also an above-average rebounder for his position, Barnes averaged 4.2 defensive rebounds a game. It’s nice, but you can’t tell me that’s some kind of seismic shift in the makeup of the roster.

(Okay, I’ll let you, but only if you’re using defensive rebounding as an argument for why we have to play Anderson over Bass. Which is, after all, the argument that the premise leads to.)

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless MP is the starting SF

Q’s offense should more than makeup for Barnes rebounding and the slashing plays we’ll lose but if MP’s the starting SF I’m not sure Dwight and Vince can cover for the lack of rebounding we’ll have at starting PF & SF.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pietrus averaged 2.3 defensive rebounds in 22 MPG.

So compared to last season, we might lose… 1 rebound a game from the SF position? 1 and a half?

And might I point out that last season, the difference between Pietrus’ PT per game and Barnes’ PT per game was a grand total of three and a half minutes. So there’s not much difference between Richardson starting or backing up — unless he totally fails to earn PT, the two roles are likely to involve very similar amounts of playing time.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 20, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looking at it both time-wise and percentage-wise:
Barnes averaged 5.8 DRBs per 36 minutes, and grabbed 16.3% of the available defensive rebounds.
Peaches averaged 3.8 DRBs per 36 minutes, grabbing 10.1% of available defensive rebounds.
Richardson averaged 5.4 DRBs per 36 minutes, grabbing 15.6% of the available defensive rebounds.

Assuming Richardson gets the starter minutes, we’ll lose 0.3 defensive rebounds per game. If Peaches gets those minutes and Richardson gets Peaches’ backup minutes, we’ll lose 1.5 defensive rebounds per game for the difference between Peaches and Barnes, but gain back 1.0 defensive rebounds per game for the gain from Peaches to Richardson, for a net loss of 0.5 defensive rebounds per game.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rebounding looks good with Richardson at SF

and the team offense should improve. I still like our team in the East next season if they’re healthy.

"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"

by Warlando on Jul 20, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. I mean, that’s also assuming those rebounds wouldn’t have been gotten by another Magic player anyway. Given that we’ve got Dyson at center, with Hoover backing him up, that’s not exactly a sure thing, that it would turn into an ORB. I’d still be happier if Shard weren’t allergic to glass, but I’ll take what I can get, and a solid rebounding 3 is a nice thing to have.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 20, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about the 2004 Pistons?

Sheed was able to hit the 3-pointer when he was younger.

I'm a dude!

Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPlLyVuMf7U

by GameManager on Jul 20, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sheed was actually more of a 3-point shooter than Hamilton was.

So yeah, there goes another example. Sheed’s a better post player than Rashard is (who is no slouch himself), but he hasn’t gone to the post heavily in a while.

I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.

by slickw143 on Jul 20, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mmm, they didn't really run a 4-out/1-in system.

Rasheed could step out and shoot threes, no doubt, but the three-point shot was never really in the Piston’s arsenal on offense. I mean, come on, we’re talking about Larry Brown, and he’s not a fan of the three-pointer at all. I think we all know why Detroit won it all in 2004. It was with spectacular defense.

I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.

by erivera7 on Jul 20, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didnt the 95 Rockets Start Otis Thorpe at PF

Thorpe couldnt shoot a 3 to save his life. I believe he got hurt that year and Herrara stepped in for a while, but he wasnt a 3 point shooter either. How did they run 1 in 4 out with those guys playing the 4?

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Olajuwon at C
Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell at the guards
Drexler, Horry and/or Otis Thorpe at the forwards

Of the 11 players on that side to play more than 500 minutes, only Herrera and Thorpe couldn’t shoot the three ball – and those two combined for only about 2500 minutes over the course of the season. Pete Chilcutt played more minutes than both and shot .407 from the three.

By the time the playoffs rolled around, only Chucky Brown and Charles Jones made significant minutes on the team without shooting three pointers, and those two were 7th and 9th in the 9 man rotation respectively.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

1993-94 Rockets as well. They were #1 in 3PA, and as with the 94-95 team, only Herrerra and Thorpe didn’t have range. Olajuwon didn’t take many, but he was a 42% 3PT shooter that season.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 21, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh Yeah....

Thorpe got hurt late in the season and didnt play at all in the playoffs. Everyone thought they were dead after that but Horry killed us in the Finals. The 93-94 season though Otis Thorpe was second in minutes only to Hakeem. That year they did have a traditional lineup throughout the regular season and the playoffs. Took a buncha 3s, but they had a VERY GOOD, defensive minded 4 starting and won maybe the most brutal series ever against the Knicks.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but in a lot of ways Olajuwon was a stretch 5. People remember his moves under the basket, but he had a good stroke that forced you to defend him out to the arc. He wasn’t a prolific three-point shooter, but he wasn’t a paint-only threat either.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 21, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Olajuwon

Took 23 three pointers himself that season. Made 10 (!) of them too.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its Not Compeletly Off Base

But I dont think the 94-95 Rocket team is a good comparison to the current Magic. Even though they were the defending champs, they were still kind of a Cinderalla team. I think they were a 6 or 7 seed and used the 1 in 4 out, out of desperation. And you cannot compare a young Big Shot Rob to Shard. He was twice the athelete and ran circles around Horace Grant.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

They still won the title with 4-1

Which is the point. It’s not an unsuccessful offensive scheme, even if it hasn’t quite got over the line here the past two seasons.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also worth noting

That the Rockets went back to a traditional lineup the season after (with Chucky Brown and Mark Bryant at the 4) and got bounced in the Western semis.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

They won one with traditional 4

And 1 without. The circumstances were different the second title. They were facing a young Magic team in the finals that never recovered from Nicks 4 missed free throws.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's the thing though

We don’t have a very good, defensive minded 4 to start. We have a very good stretch four, a young stretch four, and Brandon Bass. Who’s…athletic?

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kinda My Point

We dont have a very good defensive minded 4, but we should.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, they arent easy to find.

But Otis has Rich Devos’ blank check book and some decent trade pieces. If Hakeem needed some help down low, Dwight needs some help.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

But he didn't

He won the title without any help down low. And when the Rockets went traditional the next season, their offense dropped from 7th in the league to 12th and the got bounced in the second round.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Big Shot Rob Was a Great Defender

He dominated Horace at both ends. Can we say the same about Shard, does he dominate good power forwards at both ends?

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Robert Horry's stats for the 1994-95 season:

32.4 minutes per game, 10.2 points, 5.1 rebounds. Oh, yeah… dominance.

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 21, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's face it

The Rockets won that title because Olajuwon went insane, not because of anything else.

33 and 10 in the playoffs. I mean, that’s Michael Jordan with rebounding.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets See

Robert Horry notable performances against the Magic in the finals: Back to back 3s to start overtime in game one. Game 2: 11 points, 10 rebounds, 7 STEALS! Game 3: 11 of his 20 in the fourth including the game clincher. Game 4: another 20 point performance. His averages for the finals: 17.8 pts, 10rbs, 3.8ast and last but certainly not least 3 STEALS AND 2.3 BLOCKS a game. Do you ever see Shard helping Dwight like that? Hakeem is one of the top 5 players ever and I agree, he was a 6’10" MJ.

by Ajax2771 on Jul 21, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep. He had an uncharacteristically strong series.

Drexler had a good series too. And remember this is also the series where Sam Cassell broke out, with 30 points in Game 2.

Of course, all the stats are a bit inflated, because those were two faster teams in a faster era. (I don’t think either team acored less than 100 in any game during that series… I could be wrong. Maybe it happened once.) Also, because neither bench was utilized THAT much (with the notable exception of Cassell).

As far as Shard goes, he’s not likely to post those rebounding totals, but the scoring is definitely well within his reach.

(But before you talk about that, might I point out Grant’s stats in that same series? He wasn’t too shabby at all, either… Horry scored, and he got an uncharacteristic number of boards, but he didn’t shut down Grant as a scorer or rebounder.)

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 21, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

By a vote of 93 to 62 quod gratis asseritur, negatur

Even John McCain got a higher percentage of votes.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

would be a decent point if i hadn’t been the one that brought it up.

by David Polega on Jul 20, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't have to register vote

In fact, if you log out and clear cookies you can vote as often as you would like, right Mr. Polega?

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 21, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was IP based since my gf couldn’t vote in poll.

i don’t know mr. nc magjc fan. Do you do anything besides hunt down my posts to comment on then and come up with conspiracy theories? get a life.

by David Polega on Jul 21, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

You posts are unavoidable just like everyone elses. I don’t hunt for yours in particular, but I am pleased that you find me annoying.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 21, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bass or anybody else supposed to be coach-able

except if they are beyond learning. People learn at different paces based on their talent level. Bass was hired based on his assumed talents. If he does not understand the system, he has to be put through practice, time after time, until he does. Nobody throws out 4 million dollar a year. Is it coach’s fault? I don’t think so. Maybe more of the scouts and GM’s fault who did not do their homework before signing him. That is, to assume tat he is not coach-able.

To dis Bass becuase he does not fit in 4-1 offense due to his shooting range is unwarranted though. Simply put, we can go back and forth on the merit – or lack thereof – of 4-1 system, but the fact remains that it did not work in the last two years against certain teams in the play-offs. It does not matter how good the team was during the regular season, if the stated objective is winning a championship becuase we probably are going to go through the same teams at least for the next two years. It is like an adage in higher education which they say “When you earn your PhD nobody is going to look at your GPA”.

by Matt1325 on Jul 20, 2010 10:02 PM EDT reply actions  

258 comments and counting about Brandon Bass.

… a role player that doesn’t make or break the Magic’s chances of winning a title.

What a country.

I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.

by erivera7 on Jul 20, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I still don't think anyone has provided solid evidence that Bass is a good player.

They just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. He plays with energy and hustle, etc etc. They then complain that the people who are supposedly anti-Bass use stats too much.

TBQH though Eddy, these guys can’t hold a candle to the poster over at MBN. That guy was too much. I couldn’t even think of a way to respond to him without looking like a douchebag myself.

by MagicMark on Jul 20, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I banned him.

I let him ramble on, but then he started cursing and calling me out. I’m all for a great discussion, and we’re actually having a good one at MBN but he was ruining it with his nonsense. Got old after a while.

I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.

by erivera7 on Jul 20, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

So he is not a good player

but somebody was foolish enough to sign him to a 4-mil per year contract? The guy needs to be put on restrict training regimen until he understands fully what his role is. And yes; stats in the hands of amateur statisticians is a dangerous tool.

by Matt1325 on Jul 21, 2010 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

It is not that he is not a good player

It is that for some reason he has been unable to learn where to be when in the Magic system. The are other teams and other systems where he would be a rotation player, but he struggles in Orlando and therefore does not get playing time.

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew

I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award

by NC Magic Fan on Jul 21, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

So to summarize a lot of the arguments here

There is still love for Bass. But he is not an Orlando Magic player under SVG. I like his game. But I also like the Magic. Those are two incompatible things I have realized throughout the last season.

Unfortunately his defensive lapses with an elite championship team have decreased his stock.

by RL Magic on Jul 21, 2010 12:08 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it's more

That he’s not an Orlando Magic player when there are two superior options to him at his position.

I’m sure if Anderson wasn’t here we’d play him and he’d do OK.

by eltharion_doa on Jul 21, 2010 4:41 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, that's the thing.

If the Magic really had to, they could probably make Bass work somehow… but Ryan is a better fit for the offense (both scoring and passing), a better rebounder, and doesn’t struggle with the team’s defensive scheme.

With the work the Magic might use getting Bass to not ruin everything, they could help Ryan max out his skills and his place in the system — and Ryan is much closer to the ideal than Bass is. (He’s also younger, with more room to grow. And Bass will never be a rebounder and will never shoot the 3. Those aspects of the game are simply beyond him.)

I call him LeBron Jim for short.

by 3.3seconds on Jul 21, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

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