Evaluating Vince Carter
by Evan Dunlap on Jun 2, 2010 2:00 PM EDT
in Evaluations
Email
Print
If someone finally gets around to writing a comprehensive book about the 2010 Orlando Magic, it'll focus primarily on shooting guard Vince Carter, whom the organization saw as a missing piece when it acquired him from the New Jersey Nets for two expiring contracts and a young prospect. As an eight-time All-Star and someone on the Hall-of-Fame bubble, he was supposed to put Orlando over the hump. Better, more expensive, and more reliable than Hedo Turkoglu, the playmaking wing whose role he assumed in theory, Carter's arrival led to high hopes in Orlando. Championship hopes. With the best supporting cast and coaching of his career, he should have thrived. In reality, he came up a bit short, and only gave his detractors more ammunition.
| Vince Carter | ||
|---|---|---|
| No. 15 | ||
| Shooting Guard | ||
| Points Per Game | Rebounds Per Game | Assists per game |
| 16.6 | 3.9 | 3.1 |
| Points Per 36 | Rebounds Per 36 | Assists per 36 |
| 19.4 | 4.6 | 3.7 |
| PER | Rebound Rate | Assist rate |
| 17.1 | 7.3 | 17.8 |
| FG% | 3FG% | FT% |
| .428 | .367 | .840 |
| eFG% | TS% | |
| .486 | .541 | |
All statistics in this table from Carter's player page at basketball-reference. Career-high statistics highlighted in gold. | ||
I believe one of the biggest reasons anyone argued that Carter would thrive in Orlando is the presence of Dwight Howard. Carter's never played with a big man even approaching Howard's caliber, and he'd benefit from having Howard as a pick-and-roll partner. But that relationship never materialized. Sure, Howard set screens for Carter, and Carter used them, but the two never developed that lethal sort of chemistry with one another that could have led to a championship.
That's not to say that Carter stunk in the pick-and-roll. In fact, by any standard, he was among the best players in the league in running it. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Carter ranked 8th in points per possession (1.029) and 8th in percentage of plays that produced scores (47.5%) this season, with a minimum threshold of 500 pick-and-roll possessions. And he indeed dished to the roll-man far more often than Turkoglu did, which doesn't even account for the times he had a clear passing lane to Howard, but failed to use it. Turkoglu had the benefit of playing alongside Howard for 5 seasons, and with Tim Duncan for one season before that. He knew how to use a top-notch center, in other words. Carter struggled, to an extent. Perhaps another year with Howard will improve their ability to work together on the court.
Carter's struggle to mesh with Howard was part of a larger trend. For most of his career, he's been his team's go-to guy. And for the first two months of this season, he played like that was still his role, shooting at a high volume while not always looking to make plays for others. He figured out his role as the season progressed, though, but not before the worst slump of his career in January, during which he averaged 8.7 points per game on 38.7% True Shooting, which I speculate came as a result of nagging injuries to both ankles and his left shoulder, through which he played without complaint, but perhaps at the detriment of the team. At one point that month, Orlando lost 7 straight games in which Carter played.
Given the way he flamed out of the playoffs--which included a 3-point performance on 1-of-9 shooting in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Finals, with Orlando facing elimination--and his general reputation for not showing up when it counts, it's easy to think of Carter's season as an abject failure, and his two missed free throws late in Game 2 of the Conference Finals, with the Magic trailing Boston by 2 may indeed define Orlando's season, and could prove to be among the most critical moments of his career, as Zach Lowe has argued. Yet he had some high points, most notably his 48-point performance in a come-from-behind win against the New Orleans Hornets in February; you can watch his Top 10 plays of the season here.
Overall, I think it's fair to say that Carter showed glimpses of what Orlando thought it was getting back on draft night, but that more often than not, he was simply ordinary. A few probing dribbles here, a fadeaway jumper settled for there, a driving lane left unused... whoop-de-doo. But with that said, there are few available players in this league who would fit better with the Magic than Carter does already, which is why although GM Otis Smith will likely field calls asking about Carter, he won't get anything that represents a fair return. Which draws me to this conclusion: Carter could have been better this year, but based on how he played during the first three months, he also could have been a lot worse. His shooting stats don't show many outliers, so it's unrealistic to expect him to become more efficient next year. The best chance for improvement in his second year in Magic blue is as a playmaker. More familiarity with Howard, and with coach Stan Van Gundy's system in general, should bring out the best of his set-up skills. But if that doesn't work, and if he doesn't assert himself more in the pinch-post? We'll have this discussion again a year from now, I'm afraid.
| Grade: B- |
|---|
258 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
id also add that his overall shooting stats could improve
only in the sense that he’s unlikely to have another month like January. The stats from that month drastically hurt his overall production. Also, he certainly should be able to pass better to Dwight Howard next year, especially since signs of that seemed to show at the end of the regular season/first couple rounds. Although I was a little discouraged by his play in the Celtics series, I dont think it gets much worse than that. I actually do not think Vince’s play could have been much worse this year, and I think that’s a good thing, because next year should be a drastic improvement.
Hmmm.
I think you were a little generous with that B-. I would give him a C at most. Like you said, he was pretty average. Sure, he had that 48point game. But, honestly, I could care less. Toronto fans are probably happy that we’ve seen the true VC. His playoff performance was very, very disappointing. And, imo, that negates anything he did during the regular season. I mean, hopefully we will see some improvements next year. But, if not, at least he is in a (relatively) short term contract.
I'm a girl too.
Haters gonna hate.
I would give him a "C" as well...
you can’t give us greatness in spurts.. Kobe (acck!! ptthpp!!) brings it almost every night. We need that from Carter and he hasn’t given it to us.
He's not Kobe
All the wishing in the world won’t make him Kobe.
Matt Barnes isn’t LeBron James either, so obviously he should get a F-.
by eltharion_doa on Jun 2, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I know that...
I’m just saying we need someone at SG to Kill for us. When it’s crunch time, we need someone to make plays.
"Crunch time" is a myth.
We ALWAYS need someone to “make plays” — but those “plays” involve running the offense in the smart manner it’s been run for the first three and a half quarters.
There are only a couple teams where putting all the offense through one guy at the end of the game makes sense… and they’re the kind of teams where putting all the offense through one guy at ANY time makes sense (the Cavs with LeBron, the Heat with Wade, etc.)
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
That guy doesn't exist
The top scorers at the off guard positions are all locked up. We need to get out of fantasy land and start looking at what’s realistic.
Who’re clearly better than Carter? Kobe – not happening. Wade – not happening. Manu, Brandon Roy – nope. Iggy? Extremely unlikely.
And I mean, that’s it. There’s nobody else.
by eltharion_doa on Jun 3, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Manu would have been a perfect fit with the Magic.
I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.
So...
…half a dozen games negate half a season, because they happened to come at the end?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
That's dumb.
Like, staggeringly dumb.
I know it’s not polite to say it that way, but that is a dumb thing for you to say or believe.
I’m sorry. I wish I didn’t have to call the thing you just said dumb. But I also wish you hadn’t said such a dumb thing.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Come on
do you have a man-crush on the guy or something? And is this dumber then you saying there is no difference in regular season and playoff basketball??? Look in the mirror and stop hoping for us to loose…seriously
So what you're saying is...
…40 games isn’t evidence of a player’s ability level. Just the five games you’re pointing at are.
And as it happens, I’m not convinced Carter is the best fit for this team — but my opinion is based on the whole body of evidence (the playoffs, AND his strong second half, AND his weak first half), not on cherry-picking an extremely small sample size and ignoring the skills and the shortcomings he showed throughout the season.
Overreacting to single games, or even runs of a couple weeks, just leads to skewed evaluations and bad decisions.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Not sure what you're saying..
You think VC deserves a B?
VC over the course of the season was average and below avg in the playoffs
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
I would give Carter... probably a B-/C+.
He fell short of my expectations for him (18-20 points, 45% shooting, 4 assists). Not far short, though.
And given his improvement during the regular season, I think he’s gradually integrating himself into the offense. He ran into some snags in the playoffs — in part due to bad short-term luck, in part because he was facing some elite defenses. But if he keeps learning the Magic’s offense and Stan figures out how best to utilize his current skills, I think he could reach the numbers I predicted next season.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
jj would have given better #s given the chance.
look bottom line is carter was brought in to make plays in the playoffs and he DID NOT period. 1 for 9 and 3 for 10 in the games we won over the celtics did not get it done (other guys did). who cares about regular season dude.playoffs matter in the end not regular season.years down the road they will not talk about 59 wins they will talk about losing in the conf finals.
In the East, not too much success, but true..
Celtics were a 4th seed..
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Yeah
After fighting with injuries to their key guys all season and having dicks like ’Sheed obviously mailing in the regular season.
by eltharion_doa on Jun 3, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
But the regular season was just as indicative of his talent level as the playoffs were.
More so, even, because it’s many, many times longer. You can’t get a player “for the playoffs” — if he’s useful in the playoffs, he’ll be useful in the regular season. If he’s inconsistent in the playoffs, he was inconsistent in the regular season. Etc.
The Vince Carter who struggled against the Celtics was the same player we saw in the six previous months: a guy with talent who was struggling to adapt to his declining physical ability, frequently and often got outmatched by elite defenders.
It’s not necessary to invoke the names of Magical Playoff Wizards, or posit that basketball in May requires some kind of different skill set, to explain this: he had a bad week, and then Paul Pierce came in and shut him down. Simple as that.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I dont know about that!
in the regular season u get good, average and bad teams. With that said, u can hide ur defisiencies. Im not saying VC sucks, but he wasnt dominant. In the playoff u get what u have cause u r playing the best and u HAVE to play ur best.
VC was a C+ at best, but i will buy the mesh thing THIS year.
I will see the Dolphins win a SUPER BOWL before i die(23 years and counting)
Did you think Carter was going to be "dominant"?
What exactly were you expecting from Carter statistically?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
About 20 per with 6 ass and 6 reb
but the most important aspect? creating situations. Was NOT expecting long range shooting,but penetration and looking for the fouls in the paint or creating open shoots because of the penetration.
I will see the Dolphins win a SUPER BOWL before i die(23 years and counting)
6... assists?
Are you looking at Vince’s 2008-09 stats? Or for that matter his career assists?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I think he went from the idea that Vince now has better offensive players next to him so his assists should go up
But that happens only if he has the highest usage rate in the team
"…40 games isn’t evidence of a player’s ability level. Just the five games you’re pointing at are."
When yu’re talking about VC, and you’re talking about VC at this stage in his career, then YES YES YES.
Well, that's unfair.
Because he’s unlucky enough that his bad week coincides with the playoffs, you’re giving up on him.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
A little high on the grade,
I think I would have gone with a C. Because, yes he was ordinary. If we had an average shooting guard(maybe Anthony Parker), we would have ended up in the same spot with the Celtics. He might have helped with 2 or 3 wins in the regular season, but he did nothing outstanding for an entire game in the playoffs.
I don’t think he will get better in the system either. He is 33 and not getting better. He is a 11 yr vet and he is what he is. I would understand a younger player( like Bass) taking a while to understand the offensive and defensive assignments. But an 11 yr vet should have a higher bball IQ and understand how to win as a team. We are stuck with him unless Otis really does magic.
Thanks Vince.
Well, yeah, of course.
Carter just scored more points on a better shooting percentage, wasn’t as much of a defensive liability…
…Hedo was a better passer. I’ll give him that.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
one delivered in the playoffs, one didn't.
we got VC to get us to the Finals and to beat the Lakers. He flamed out BIG time, don’t think he deserves any kind of B. Just my opinion though. Def agree with the B+ with Hedo, granted regular season may not have been great but he got us to the finals.
So...
…you don’t care whether a player had good games or bad games. You mostly care whether he was lucky enough that the good games he had happened to be at the end of the season?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I want him to be consistent yes,
but if you can’t deliver in the playoffs then you aren’t getting it done when u need to.
What I’m saying is, “in the playoffs” isn’t a skill. Vince Carter had some bad games vs. the Celtics for any number of reasons: questionable decision-making, possible minor injuries, strong defense by Pierce, simple bad luck. But the mere fact that it was the playoffs has nothing to do with it — the series just coincided with a bad stretch by Carter. That’s all.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Why does a guy like Kobe show up every year in the playoffs then?
I’m not asking that he have Kobe games but just be a consistent role player. He didn’t do that, he was a no show. He doesn’t have to score but at least create for others.
Kobe’s playoff stats, 2009: 40.9 MPG, 30.1 PPG, .564 TS%, 5.3 RPG, 5.5 APG
Kobe’s regular-season stats, 2008-09: 36.1 MPG, 26.8 PPG, .561 TS%, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG
This might shock you, but Kobe Bryant is actually a good basketball player. What he’s doing in the playoffs is the same thing he does in the regular season. He’s not some kind of wizard who calls upon the aid of ancient gods who slumber in the middle of the Earth until mid-April. He just keeps having the games he’s had all season.
And he plays for a few more minutes per game. So, hey, his numbers look a little better because of that.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
You are irrational
you are coming up with stupid argument after stupid argument for a guy who plain and simple sucks and under-performed heavily
Yep. This is a guy who sucks, except when he doesn't suck.
He underperforms, except when he overachieves, or occasionally when he plays evenly with his averages.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Is Vince paying you for this?
I mean…come on…16-17 mil for ALL HE DIDNT DO….he could afford to.
I agree Vince is overpaid.
But the team’s not deciding whether to pay him at this point. He’s already on the team — the Magic are stuck with Vince. It’s not like they can dump him and sign another player for the same amount of money. It’s not even like they can dump him and just not pay him.
The question is, can Vince Carter contribute to this team? And I feel he can. He’s a 17-PPG guy who shoots 43%. That’s not efficient, but it’s not awful. Clearly, he’s going to have to work on his decision-making.
But what if he does? What if he’s a 17-PPG guy who shoots, for example, 46% (with the same range Vince has now)? Now, that’s a guy who can really put some efficient points on the board. And there was a multiple-month stretch where he did even better than that.
Not saying he WILL figure out how to do that again. Just saying he COULD.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
You just dont get it...
The magic didnt get him to play well horrible in the 1st half of the season and play amazing in the 2nd half of the season bla bla bla bla like you have been going on about his greatness…they got him to help them get the title..and he failed, MISERABLY. Cant he contribute to this team FOR WHAT THEY GOT HIM?? Never Ever Ever. Stop pointing out bs..they got him for the playoffs and to get to the top…and he dragged them down. Thank god ur not the gm, you look like your about to give him a 6 year 118 mil extention this summer
by rahido on Jun 2, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+100
I agree 100%
We didn’t take on that garbage contract for VC score 13 pts a game vs the Celtics.. SMH.. He failed and to give him a B blows my mind..
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Okay...
…would you rather the Magic pay $16 million for Carter… or $12 million for Rafer Alston and Tony Battie?
They took on the contract because they needed a starting shooting guard, and they didn’t have one.
Unless you want to look at Courtney Lee’s stats this year and tell me he would have been an upgrade over Carter.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
LeBron lost in the 2nd round, so probably he sucks badly
Despite his stats, he played with no heart in the last games.
Regarded by some as the best player on the planet, he was shut down by the Celtics. The Cavs and the Magic are not the same teams, but they are somewhat similar.
If LeBron in his prime was shut down by the Celtics, what would you expect of Vince?
Great, great point.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Lebron averaged
27 pts, 9 rebs, 7 ast.. Triple double the last game, nothing about that says shut down to me..
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
by Wmillion on Jun 3, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
AS THE GO TO GUY
In his prime, the best basketball player in the world (I still think Kobe is, but whatever).
Take only the 27 points average as the go to guy, but look at the last games of the series as well.
He definitely
Played good until the 4th quarter in 4
Dropped a real stinker in 5
Played well in 6-triple double
Do you think they move on if it was-
DFish
Lebron
Artest
Gasol
Bynum
With Odom coming of the bench?-I think he does, but impossible to prove.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Yep.
You see a lot of other basketball players averaging 27/9/7 for a series?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I Highly Highly doubt the celtics put as much focus on VC as they did on Lebron James…as pierce said, lebron could cover a whole scouting report, Vince…
Anyone who pays attention to my posts knows that don't get on the players too much..
I mostly rant on SVG (whether or not you think its fair is up to you). But I most definitely have to agree that Carter drastically under achieved, as did Rashard. We brought in Carter not only to be a starting shooting guard, but to also stop the lulls in our offense we have a tendency to go through when facing elite defenses, and he failed at doing that. Not only that, but it seemed to me, again just my opinion, that his scoring wasn’t really timely or all that impacting. I think the reason Hedo gets so much respect is because of his timely buckets. He could go the whole game without scoring all that much, but he seemed to make them when it counted, a lot. Vince seems inept at doing that…and for 17 million a year, that should never be the case.
by Dome of the Rock on Jun 4, 2010 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
The Magic got him to play well.
He did that some times.
Other times, he did not.
I think we’re all in agreement on that part.
I would say he was an effective player approximately fifty percent of the time this season — a coin flip. Clearly, that’s not enough.
We’re in agreement on that as well.
But you seem to believe that a team has, or should have, some way of knowing whether a player who’s effective half the time will have a good week or a bad week… ten months in advance.
I don’t think that’s a reasonable expectation.
Let me ask you — what did you think Carter would do for this team? Myself, I was expecting 18-20 points a game, 45% shooting and 4 assists. Carter fell somewhat short of that, definitely.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Who said I was defending Carter?
I’m attacking the mindset that treats half-a-dozen games at the end of the season as somehow more indicative of a player’s skill level, or more important when making predictions, than the 80+ games before them.
As it happens, Carter was rather disappointing in those 80+ games as well.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
People are irrational.
Vince wasn’t horrible. He wasn’t great, and he wasn’t good enough to get us over the hump, so he fell short. But to trash the dude like he didn’t do anything this year is just wrong.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
What statement have I made that was irrational..
The guy didn’t get the job done and doesn’t deserve a B, plain and simple..
He will only be worse next season..
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
he makes a difference for this team. ask d howard
game 1 he was playing by himself. game 2 he wasnt on but he was creating and taking the ball strong to the hoop. game 3 nobody played game 4 he was awful game 5 not his best but they won both of those. gm 6 he was balling, where was everybody else. so it was the whole team not one player. im not saying that you said that.
It's also not a 6-game season.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
so hedo would have made a difference this year
we barely got past boston last year with hedont. and they didnt have kg who had rashard on lock.
would have made more of a difference then Carter…Hedo delivered when it mattered most….Carter hides when it matters most…when will u realize that? Yea sure he’s ur fav player cuz he could dunk on mountains back in the day…but wake up cuz he sucks now…and u know it too so be real..this is about a team…not an old guy who is scared of challenges
Hedo was just as inconsistent.
It just came in shorter waves. Vince had one below-average month followed by an awful month, followed by good months. In the playoffs it was more Hedo-like with some bad games, then some good games, then a string of good games and then a string of bad games.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
How else do you grade?
based on his stats, play in the playoffs, he played average.. b+ implies good to almost great play. There’s no way he’s a b+
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
did the celtics put lebron james cavs out? or d wades heat out?
or did they just put out the magic.
your statement
Has nothing to do with grading Carter, but since your comparing him to Wade and Lebron.. Look at those two guys stats vs Boston and then look at his.. Your telling me if VC played like either player vs Celtics we wouldn’t be playing on Thursday?
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
the games that vc played well orlando loss
so what point are you really making. so what does it matter if they played well and they are fishing too.
Like I said
If he played like they played we would be playing Thursday
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
So a B+ player, in your opinion...
…is a player as good as Wade or James?
What exactly were you expecting from Carter before the season?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Better question
Are you saying VC played well or above avg in the playoffs?
Didn’t expect much, I hoped he would get a guy who would avg 20 pts during the season and in the playoffs.. I thought he was a better option than Hedo and I was wrong..
Hedo’s contract made him impossible to bring back, so I understand the move, but VC detracted from the team. Plain and simple
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
I'm saying the playoffs are a small sample size.
That’s like me asking you, “Are you saying VC played well between February 24 and March 11, 2010?”
Which he did, but that’s not my point. When you add everything up, he played around as well as Hedo — maybe not QUITE as well — close. The playoffs, between two evenly matched teams, are a coin flip. Just like the season series with the Celtics was another coin flip.
My point is, don’t freak out over coin flips, people.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Dude was very good for the last 3 months.
Until the Boston series. And in that series, he played great 33% of the time, and below average the other 66% of the time. Cut him some slack. We lost to the Boston for a myriad of reasons, and Vince was not the primary cause either.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I respect what your thought process
I just disagree. He didn’t show up for the biggest series in his career and I am not ok with it.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
That's fine but this was an evaluation of the season.
Not a series. He would’ve received a C-/D+ for the series.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
well, one major area you left out
is the astoundingly poor defense offered by carter. how many times did you see him in a one on one transition situation where his “challenge” consisted of backing away with his arms down, hands together? or his patented hip bump that never effects the shot but does just enough to create a reasonable possibility of a foul call for the “and one?”
by Half-man Half-gortat on Jun 4, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh.
The stats don’t show him as an especially poor defender.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
stats are not the end be all
did you watch vince’s transition defense?
case in point: dwight’s run-down of rondo in the ECF – vince is running his hands down back away challenge to perfection. check it out.
by Half-man Half-gortat on Jun 5, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, relying on that kind of stuff can skew perceptions.
I’ll take a guy who makes a solid play nine times and an embarrassing-looking bad play once over a guy who makes a solid play seven times and an unobtrusive bad play (missed rotation, etc.) three times. Carter is obviously not a gifted defender, but he doesn’t make a lot of obvious mistakes.
It’s like baseball — some shortstops get a lot of praise for making acrobatic-looking plays, and then you crunch the numbers, and it turns out they don’t have a lot of range at all, and a better shortstop would’ve been able to make that play look routine.
I mean, that much having been said, I don’t think transition D is a particularly strong part of his game. I think he’s more effective in the half-court. But I don’t think Redick does transition D especially well either, so what can you do?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I keep reading your name as "half-man half-goat"
idek
I'm a girl.
by TheGiantSquid on Jun 5, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Inredibly true
"". how many times did you see him in a one on one transition situation where his "challenge" consisted of backing away with his arms down, hands together?""" Oh my God he would make me want to cry or kill someone everytime he did that…why is he even running back??? just dont run back….and when he would duck as the opposing player would rise and then run towards the side to avoid contact or any defense, no words to describe when you wish somehow it will be a good defensive play and you might save 2 points and then VC pulls one of those off.
yup
incredibly frustrating to see from such a talented guy. I’d love to see an explanation of what he’s trying ot accomplish with his hands down and linked routine.
by Half-man Half-gortat on Jun 5, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe avoiding a cheap, silly foul in a situation where he's already beat? idk
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
by magicfaninTN on Jun 5, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Carter's a mediocre defender
Turkoglu was a genuinely bad one.
by eltharion_doa on Jun 5, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Not true
Turk was a pretty good team defender and could body up on players better, plus he always knew how to force the player towards help.
Yep. That's not true.
The numbers say that’s not true. Turkoglu was definitely a worse defender.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Ok
What u simply deny again and again is that most significant numbers are that with VC we won 10 games in the playoffs and with Turk initiating majority of the offense in the playoffs last year we got 13 wins, eastern title and a trip to finals.. Its all that matters…not the numbers you are using to praise and defend VC’s (out of all players in the universe) defense. Yes its a team game and u win and loose as a team but he was by far the weakest link in terms what he is supposed to contribute…and with Turk it was not the case. The game 2 block Hedo had on Kobe in the finals last year… can VC even do that on a slower Nate Robinson? Come on..I know he’s ur fav player and ur irrationally bias towards him just like I was with penny when his knees were done when I was 10 years old, but bottom line is that pizza eating, wild shot driving turkish guy that also quit on toronto and stole 50sth millions dollars, still would have contributed a lot more to orlando then this VC guy did
long way to go for you
keep learning nonetheless
If Nate was as slow or slower, VC still wouldn’t pull off a good defensive play. It wasn’t that complicated, come one now.
"and his general reputation for not showing up when it counts,"
So then where does all the “oh he’s the closer we need, hes the playmaker at any time at anywhere on the court that we need” come from then? I don’t get it.
Bill Simmons summed it up best before the season started when he claimed “Put it this way: If Vince Carter is a great basketball player, if he has ANY greatness in him, then it’s going to surface this season. Or else it wasn’t there in the first place. Either way, we will have an answer.”
Welp, guess that wraps up that. Why sit through another season of what we saw this season? Where is there evidence to show ANYTHING will be better next year with him? A one year (failed) experiment, what he was. Too bad he’ll be back. Maybe we’ll get lucky and J.J. will stay, and beat him out for the starting 2.
Please, for the sake of your credibility, never refer to Simmons while making a point.
Unless it is to refute his argument.
hes hated vince for years
to be fair to simmons, he openly hates vince. not one of his biaseshe doesnt admit to.
by nickswarriors16 on Jun 2, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Which will truely disable us from getting over that hump to a championship...
On another note:
I wonder how the MAgic will even come into the year next season? I mean they came in this year almost pissed off with the fresh bitter taste of the Finals home court loss on their minds earger to get back.
I hope next year the new gym will give them the fight needed because I have this nervous feeling they are going to come out flat and disinterested. As a player you can only take so much of Stan’s coaching ways without championship winning results. Look at how Dwight had to call him out early in the year, in only year 3.
SVG scares me...
I don’t think I can take another 4-1 offense. Watch… It’s gonna do us fine in the regular season, then Crumble in the playoffs.
It reminded me when I seen Barnes start for the first time. My jaw just dropped. “We’re starting a bench player that can’t even stay on a team!!”
Yeah, Barnes in the starting lineup sure ruined the Magic.
Best 5-man plus-minus unit in the league for units with 700+ minutes. Get used the 4-out/1-in. It’s staying.
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
Man get used to it !! SVG gonna be here next year.
And Honestly, If we was to win a championship this year, I would still feel the same way about him. -Again, just my opinion.
Hating a coach that wins a ring, isn’t that kind of ignorant? You can have your opinion as anyone else but just get used to the idea that SVG is still the coach. Don’t turn every post to the 1000+1 reasons you hate him.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
You act like if the Magic wins a championship, it's because of him..
NO, its a “team” effort. and I was replying to Gatorboi’s comment above:
“As a player you can only take so much of Stan’s coaching ways without championship winning results.”
I don’t like his offense.. How is that ignorant?? I don’t like it, SO WHAT. That’s me. Be EASY.
I tried to be polite.
All I’m saying is you have 78 posts in this blog and I wouldn’t be surprised if 70 of them contain a “nice” word about SVG. As I said you can continue as much as you like but it just makes it dificult to read your comments more often IMhumbleO. And yes the coach of a “team” effort deserves all the credit he can get.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Maybe I'm wrong but when Dwight called on SVG early in the year I thought it was about Carter.
Dwight said to Stan that the “new guys” had trouble with the yelling and I never believed that Lawrence Frank came by Orlando just to see the sights. But this is about Carter so I’ll say that even though I never expected him to be Kobe kind of player (I honnestly believe that he started his decline in 2006 and that was 4 years ago) I was very disapointed by him. So I’ll give him a solid C too even if I always was a fan of his game. I can forgive him the month of January but 3points and 3TOs in the ECF is just lame as can be. As for his role at leading a team : no way. If you want a guy like that better call his former teammate J-KIdd. I’m very curious to see how he’ll come out next season and I wish I wont have those deathwish feelings about him.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Just for curiosity, I'm not saying I disagree in any way,
would you (or anyone) happen to have the number of games that VC scored 30+ this season ?
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
He scored 30+ twice.
34 against the Jazz in a loss, and the 48 against the Hornets in a win.
Which is to say Carter is a threat to score 30 on 2 given nights in a season.
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
VC had many great games this season as he had some very bad ones.
For my part the fact that he had great games in the big ones (Celtics reg season included) only raised my hopes for him which made the ECF disapointement even worse. Besides in Magic’s type of game it isn’t easy to go 30+ too often with all the shooters around.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
I know that wasn't your point.
It is my point. In one sense, I agree with BQR, Carter is the greater volume scoring threat. Partly, b/c JJ knows that is not his role. But this season VC averaged 16.6 ppg.
At this point in their careers, JJ and VC have remarkable similar per36 stats. In fact, if you look at the playoffs, VC just about doubled JJs minutes and doubled his ppg (sounds about right, no?). But JJ shot a LOT more efficiently, so it is reasonable to argue that given VC’s minutes, JJ might have produced numbers better than VC’s. JJ uses his minutes more efficiently. And though defensive metrics are only so helpful, these two players scored about the same for the playoffs.
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
jj gets guarded by the backup 2 guards
what would jj do if ron artest was guarding him. lets be real. he does his role very well but could jj have done that to the lakers this year like vince did.
yea right...
None of them are 30pt threats imo and if one was it’d be JJ.Your gonna tell me if redick got the same playing time and shots that VC did he wouldnt be as much of a threat as VC. Please…
please stop smoking that right now
jj reddick is a bench player. there are times against certain teams that he shines. i like jj, but he is not even close to vincecarter. how many games did the second unit come in and we lost big leads. the second half of the season vc and dwight carried the magic. but it is team ball so it doesnt matter if he scored 30 or not, he got everyone else involved. how many plays did he drive and dish to rashard or peaches for a 3 point shot. how many times does jj get a double team. look at the boston series closely, vc got doubled all the time and when he got to the hole he got fouled but where was the refs. oh they were saving their whistle for someone to slightly touch paul pierce.
Any UNC/Duke or pro-Carter bias to your opinion?
Just wondering due to your username.
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
i love vc. is he the best no. is he better than kobe or lebron no. does he have game yes. do i like all of his shot selections no. do i think he will do better next year yes. do i think that he is undervalued yes. vc and d howard are not treated as superstars. they get hacked with no call, they get abused in the media, without a whole lot of praise. so i just dont think we can blame all of this on one player. nobody in a magic uniform played well every game in the boston series. we can all say what might would have happened but it didnt.
If Vince would work at his athleticism in the offseason and change his mentality a bit... then he might have a chance of redeem
But he won’t. I know the guy so well. He had a myriad of “redeem” chances and… well…
He’s just a genuinely nice guy, and he acts like that on the floor as well. He doesn’t have the nastyness, the mean demeanor of “I’m going to kill this guy defending me”… he’s just like “hey man, how’s your kid?”.
And while that is great as a person, it doesn’t help you basketball-wise. Most great players have the assassin mentality.
I agree
but he did at least killed Alonzo once and a few others.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Well yeah, the 48 point VC is the Vince that I know
And that I’ve seen every time I watched Nets games… I was expecting that kind of performances every time the Nets played.
But here he just tried to fit in so much that he messed up pretty bad mentally. He never played with a dominant center as Dwight and he doesn’t know how to really use him.
I’d say I’m dissapointed from that passing standpoint because I know how great of a passer Vince is. Again, that’s mental as well. Remember the pass to Matt Barnes in the 48 point game? That happened because he was into that game mentally. He was genuinely feeling like the team was needing him, and that all the other guys were expecting him to make plays, and not taking turns to do it. So he wasn’t like “Ok, this is Jameer’s play or Dwight’s play”. He was like “I’m going to get the ball every time and score” – and I’m talking about the 2nd half of that game.
i dont think he needs redemption
the magic lost, not vince carter. he is part of the team. a 59 win team, a team that got beat by a more prepared team. in game 1 where was everybody else. but no its vinces fault. if his jump shot was falling things would have been a little different, the magic still wouldnt have won. boston played better team ball. next year we need a better game plan.
When your jumpshot doesn't fall, you penetrate
But he’s too slow for that right now, and the refs never called fouls for him, even in obvious situations. Again, working on his athleticism could do wonders, from better speed on the court to better shooting (since more leg strength = better shooting).
i somewhat agree
he doesnt seem to believe that he can dunk it on people anymore. he can. i think he drove more in the boston series than any, but he couldnt get the calls. if you look back at the lakers game in orl. he drove all day long and he got the calls but because boston is supposed to be the defensive team they get away with a lot. i think we expect vince to take over games when in , that is what the team wants him to do. and i like jameer but jameer needs to do a better job of distributing the ball. he could have got vince some easy shots near the rim. as well as d howard
Yeah that's correct
I hated when he was wide open in one of the Celtics ECF games and instead of throwing down the tomahawk he tried an up and under (!) that missed.
I was like WTF?
plus he led new jersey to the playoffs
and against miami he was the best player in the playoffs for new jersey. still didnt matter they lost.
At this point, you're not thinking clearly, and letting your bias against Carter cloud your judgment.
Redick has scored more than 25 points in a game once in his career, which spans 222 games over 4 seasons. That was a 27-point performance against the Raptors in November 2009.
Carter scored 25+ 13 times last season alone.
He is more of a scoring threat than Redick is. That is a fact. Redick is more efficient, sure, but part of that is having a different role and usage.
Fair to compare
Conserding Redick has never started..
That’s what Carter needs a role reduction.. Less shots, less impact
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
that's too bad
He needs to go.. He plays like a role player and best served coming of the bench.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
What about February-April, though?
I know Carter was uneven this year — but that is half a season where he was huge for this team. To me, that’s a pretty damn powerful argument that Vince and the Magic can make this work…
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Really?
If he plays like he did for the entire second half of the season, he won’t be helping the team?
Or are you saying that the pace he maintained for the entire second half of the season, not three months ago, is somehow permanently beyond him now?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I'm saying,
VC isn’t a guy that is going to lead a team to a championship all I’m saying. Regular season is one thing, playoffs are another. You disagree with that? Intensity is higher defense is better, its more physical. He wasn’t ready for that against the Celtics.
The idea of the playoffs somehow being a different style of basketball is a myth. It’s been debunked repeatedly and conclusively by statistical analysis. If you persist in believing it, there’s no help for you, and you’re really not worth arguing with.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
The average possessions per game do decrease...
…by a margin of 2%. (92 per game in the regular season, 90 per game in the playoffs.)
But even if you think that’s significant, it’s not because of the Mystical Powers of Playoff Basketball. It’s because good defensive teams tend to slow their opponents down and play strong transition D. Poor defensive teams don’t. And a lot of poor defensive teams don’t make the playoffs.
(Do you remember the regular-season games between the Magic and the Celtics? Slow, slow, slow games. It’s about the teams, not the number on the calendar.)
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
huh?
“The idea of the playoffs somehow being a different style of basketball is a myth.” Have u EVER watched basketball????
I've watched a lot of basketball.
I’ve also looked at the statistics — and the statistics consistently show no inherent difference between playoff basketball and regular-season meetings between teams of the same talent level.
Have you looked at the statistics?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
If you have an ESPN Insider account, you need to read this piece by John Hollinger
It’s called “Debunking NBA playoff myths.” He goes through scads of data to prove that the following ideas about the playoffs are straight-up wrong:
Myth 1: Defense tightens in the playoffs.
Myth 2: Experience matters
Myth 3: Regular-season matchups matter.
Myth 4: Refs swallow their whistles in the playoffs.
The truth, he writes, is that pace slows down. But that’s it. The four above lines of thinking are wrong.
Yes but
I wonder what the players who ACTUALLY PLAY in the playoffs and regular season have to say about that. Im sure Jameer would agree that Nate Robinson’s defense was tighter then usual in game 6.
As for Hollinger’s article, Myth 2, 3 and 4 have nothing to do intensity, which is what goes up in the playoffs, defensive intensity included
Players are notoriously superstitious, though.
A lot of players will buy into these cliches even more than fans.
And what is “intensity”? That’s a vague and essentially meaningless term.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Intensity is giving your best possible
In the regular season you don’t, because you risk injury and you’re lazy.
The playoffs are much, much more intense
People are over your every little mistake. There’s no comparison between regular season basketball and the playoffs. There’s such a big difference.
I’m still with the Celtics’ great D in my head as well, so that might be something too in saying this.
You got any numbers to support that?
Numbers that can’t be explained by the simple fact that bad teams miss the playoffs and average teams generally get knocked out in the first round?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Well they might
But it think it’s a greater sense of urgency in the playoffs for everybody. More intensity. Less “whatever” attitude. It is a bit different.
Well, maybe...
…if only in that teams are more evenly matched, so there’s less garbage time.
And I don’t know that “intensity” is necessarily a quantifiable thing. If you’re a 40% shooter on open threes, and you get an open three, you’re probably going to shoot around 40%. That’s true in the playoffs, and it’s true in the regular season. It doesn’t matter if you’re walking around with a determined-looking look on your face — in the end, you’re playing with the same muscles and the same reflexes you’ve always had.
Unless you’re saying that there are players standing in the middle of the court, saying to themselves, “hey, should I guard him? …nah, never mind, it’s just December.”
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
well yea its not completely quantifiable but what about the improved rotations and improved close outs from small to large degrees that happen on a pretty consistent basis which reduce the level of “openess” in a shot…im sure it does matter, more so for fragile minded players like Carter and Im sure pressure has en effect on same muscles and same reflexes as well, just like Carter’s missed ft’s in game 2. Not trying to pick on the guy he just happens to be a good example.
I have a few observations
In a series (4 to 7 games) you can do a lot to improve the defensive rotations vs. the opposing team. You can also do a lot to improve the offense. Coaching is more important in the playoffs because of this.
And yes, I do believe in the middle of the season some players will be “nah, I’m not going to run and put a hand in this guy’s face… (because it’s a regular season game)” while the same player would have an increased level of urgency in the playoffs. Some people are like that. Some people thrive under pressure and when they feel that the games actually matter (see Rasheed).
It’s also a mind game in the playoffs. You can dominate or be dominated by the opposing player during a series. There’s some more trash talking, some more “wish” to beat the guy in players with heart.
It is really different in my opinion. You don’t need numbers to see it.
As for getting open and shooting 40% as in the regular season – you probably won’t be that open because people will go berserk on defense when you compare the same people on defense in the regular season.
Trust me, some of them are just pacing themselves in the regular season.
Well, it's a good thing you don't "need" numbers to see it.
Because if you needed numbers, you’d be stuck with a bunch of numbers that don’t show it. And then where would you be?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I don't have any number and maybe you have a point but
do you really think that for ex. that Dragic kid wasn’t affected by the fact that it was the playoffs?
Players can change and when they do, they change the team. I could bring some Magic examples too.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Dragic had some good playoff games.
He’s had some good regular-season games too. (On Jan. 25 vs. Utah, he scored 32 points on 10-13 shooting.) \
Also some bad games. Also some bad playoff games.
Or to put it differently:
14.8 MPG, 7.6 PPG, 43.0% FG, 32.5% 3FG, 1.8 RPG, 2.3 APG
18 MPG, 7.9 PPG, 45.2% FG, 38.8% 3FG, 2.1 RPG, 3.0 APG
One of these is Dragic in the playoffs. The other is Dragic in the regular season. Which one’s “affected” by something? Can you tell which is which without looking? Aren’t these essentially the same stat line?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
no, I can only tell that he destroyed the spurs by him self in a 4rth quarter
and if it was in the reg season not only it would matter way less but I don’t even think we would have such a performance. As I told you before I don’t have stats to back my point and I actually prefer keep believing that certain people (even the Boston team) step it up a bit when it comes to the playoffs.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Well, there WAS such a performance in the regular season.
Like I said, he scored 32 against the Jazz. So there’s that.
And for the record, Dragic’s playoff line was the first of the two, the one with the lousy shooting percentage.
So if you want to argue that Dragic was “affected” by the playoffs, your storyline could go something like “he got a favorable defensive match-up, and he made some shots in a row against the Spurs”.
Or it could go something like “Dragic and his teammates got hung up on running plays for him, and he shot way too much against the Lakers, to steadily diminishing returns.”
Or it COULD go something like “There are 82 regular season games. The Suns played 14 post-season games. Therefore, there is approximately a 15% chance that any given Suns player’s best game of the season will come during the postseason.”
Except that in this case, the other 85% won out. The Spurs game was Dragic’s second-best of the season.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I prefer be a naïve and still believe there is something special to the playoffs.
and your numbers can still be discused but this is not the point of this post. Maybe you should do a FanPost about it.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
How is this "not the point of this post"?
There is a large block of numbers in the middle of the post.
It is followed by a technical discussion of Carter’s statistics, especially his role in the team’s pick-and-roll. “Synergy Sports Technology” is credited.
The title contains the word “evaluating”.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
saying that reg season=playoffs in intensity
I’m tired now
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
The only playoff myth is true is that the pace slows down. That's it.
Hollinger did an Insider post at ESPN about this stuff a few weeks ago.
I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.
Eh, regular season means almost nothing.
Playoffs are a different animal and should be treated as a separate entity.
is what you said last year Eddy in the same conversation with the same person (3.3 sec.). I ain’t saying you are wrong or whatever is just an interresting debate that isn’t always easy to back up with numbers. Here is the context.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Saying that he isn't going to lead them to a championship is one thing
however, he can certainly help get them there. also, while defensive intensity is higher in the playoffs, the celtics are another animal. we’re lucky that their unlikely to be this good next year
by nickswarriors16 on Jun 2, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it is permanently behind him. even in the afterlife it will be beyond him..
A perennial looser will always be a perennial looser. Man i miss courtney lee
we saw the real VC
When we needed him.. We had a better record than the two team playing in the finals, so regular season doesn’t mean too much..
VC needs to go, he is average, and below avg in the playoffs.. I would rather role with JJ.. VC has more talent, but less heart.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Except JJ is much younger
But yeah, Vince could play with more heart as well
LeBron is the closer the Cavs needed
Huh? Ah… he lost in the 2nd round.
D’ah well…
We saw flashes of what Carter can do...
Remember the 4th quarter of the third regular season game against Boston (in Orlando)? We ran a lot of 1-2 PnRs with great success.
I’m not sure we ever used carter correctly. He needs more 1/2 PnRs to get him matched up against small people who he can abuse in the post. Its time for Carter to adapt to old man game (Kobe and MJ did it) and start posting up more. This would free up shooters because a PG would need a double to stop him.
"In reality, he came up a bit short, and only gave his detractors more ammunition."
That’s a great, great summary! Expectations were high. VC didn’t hit them. Only reinforces the both the real and perceived negatives. Probably doesn’t help that VC comes across in interviews like it doesn’t bother him.
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
by magicfaninTN on Jun 2, 2010 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
vince carter had a good season
the orlando magic won 59 games. enough said. when vince was not playing orlando didnt look that good. outside of him they dont have any threats to get to the whole. against cleveland this year he came through in the clutch boston, new orleans and probably many more. he set up rashard lewis for about half of his points. how about when he was running the point. we forget so quickly how good this guy is. he had a bad series, but so did many other magic players. they win as a team they lose as a team. doc rivers only doubled one player in this series[ vince carter] he talked all the jameer stuff in the media but his game plan was for vince. re look at the games vince blew by paul pierce every time, but only to be met by the rest of the celtics. overall i would give him a b for this season too. he played with injuries too.
who doesn't play with injuries? not a good argument.
I don’t expect VC to play like Kobe, but Kobe was hurt all year and pretty darn bad. He doesn’t like contact, he doesn’t like to (or can’t) play defense. We don’t need him to be the superstar of this team but we need him to be a solid role player. And he couldn’t do that. Maybe next year, but I’m not counting on it. Rashard, Dwight, and Meer must carry us and have to play well for us to win a championship.
almost no one plays with injuries like kobe does
Vince played with more injuries this year than most people do, though I’d say thats a far better excuse for his January than it is for the series against the Celtics. I dont think Kobe is a good barometer for anyone.
by nickswarriors16 on Jun 2, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
True,
just saying don’t use the injury excuse. I don’t buy those.
fair enough
I do think the shoulder injury legitimately screwed up his shooting stroke in January. He never used it as an excuse, and I dont think injuries should be used as such. I was just pointing out that not too many people play through broken fingers, torn ligaments, and sprained ankles as often or as well as Kobe.
by nickswarriors16 on Jun 2, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
to be fair to VC a shoulder injury affects your shot way more than the finger
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
The January I can buy thats legit.
But the playoffs I’m not.
rashard carry who
rashard lewis needs other people in order for him to get his shots. jameer is good but he is an offensive point guard, not a true point and the offense actually runs better with vc or j will playmaking. for all the good jameer did, look at how many players he missed when they were ready for their shots. im cool that vince gets some of the blame, but i dont think that he deserves the majority of it. he played in this system 1 year. and please dont start me on kobe. he is great dont get me wrong, but if he has an injury the whole league says awww kobes finger is hurt thats why he had a bad series against oklahoma, but if vince has a bad series every reporter in the league has something bad to say. the last time i checked boston also put out lebron james and d wade too.
I agree with that.
SVG lost confidence in VC in game 4 and maybe that was partly the problem I don’t know. Not that he did much before that. But we didn’t run much through him, but i don’t think it would have changed anything. Agree with Meer misses people quite a bit.
To the entire "we need a killer" argument
There is one super-skilled killer in the NBA at this moment. His name is Kobe Bryant. Anyone else who fits the “killer” mode is either far less skilled or not in a position to perform end of game heroics, such as Kevin Garnett. What we need from Vince isn’t for him to be a “killer” persay. You cannot make a killer. Lebron will never be one, Vince will never be one, Dwight will never be one. they can still be plenty succesful in crunchtime, but all of the people asking for the magic to sign a killer, please tell me, where do you see a killer on the market? wades as close as it gets, and theres no chance in hell he can come to orlando.
And even Kobe...
…would be better served to get the ball to the more efficient Gasol a little bit more than he does.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Let's say this
We need someone better than VC, a player who can go for 30 in the playoffs when we need him, too..
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Well, there are around four players who can force a 30-point game when they need to.
One of them’s in LA, one of them’s in Oklahoma, and while the other two are free agents, we’re not getting ’em.
So I guess we’re going to have to resign ourselves to NOT playing the style of ball that revolves around a single scoring leader.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Dwight went for 30 twice in the last series
So it’s not a rare as you think.. Plus you left of Carmelo.
Paul Pierce hit us for 30, too.
So it’s very possible. VC needs to go.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Oh, it can be done.
I thought you were saying we needed a guy who could go out and say “I’m going to score 30” and then do it basically on command.
Certainly a 20-point scorer will do it sometimes, if he has a favorable match-up and/or some shots fall his way.
I’d question whether the kind of mindset from the first paragraph would help the Magic, though. The Magic at this point basically have four players who average 15-20 PPG. Ideally, you’re going to give a few more shots to whoever has a favorable defensive situation and is getting open. But for Carter (or anyone else) to say “all right, it’s going to be me” before the game even begins is just going to lead to a lot of predictable (and therefore low-percentage) offense.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I have my ideas on what I would like to see
but, the market will be set by the Max players, and then I will begin to speculate.
Yes a dominate player would help because it would get Dwight open dunks and Meer and Shard open 3’s.. Making everyone better..
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Is a player like that available?
Was a player like that available last summer? Or was the alternative to Carter Alston + Battie + Lee?
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
I don't know..
I wish I was fly on the wall in Otis’s office..
Since he took on Fool’s Gold.. LOL
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
He made the right decision.
It didn’t work out, but it was the best decision for both the present and the future.
People need to be freaking realistic about personnel possibilities. Honestly, I feel like people have become spoiled by being 2K GM’s. We’re not going to be able to trade Brandon Bass for Durant, despite what Sam Presti might do in a video game.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Well, I did that
Then traded Durant with Jameer and Rashard for LeBron, Daniel Gibson and VAREJAO! :D
Varejao? Ugh...
Truth be told, I’d rather have Durant, Jameer and Rashard in real life. Don’t know how overpowered LeBron is in the game though, compared to the growth Durant made (haven’t played 2k10 myself).
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Yeah well it's debatable
I prefer to kill them on the fast break with LeBron, and dominate the half-court game with Dwight
Oh I know..
I do find it interesting Otis called him fool’s gold..
My agrument is that he doesn’t deserve a B-.. I say C and that’s it.
He had an average season.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
New question,
would we have been better off playin AJ than J-Will in playoffs?
Now, this is a question worth asking.
Williams declined greatly in the second half of the season… I tend to believe he was fatigued, that he’s no longer physically capable of going a whole season. But whatever it was, he was a consistent weak spot even before the playoffs started. But there was no talk of benching him.
I mean, it’s probably not relevant any more. But it’s a valid point, definitely.
(Then again, we can discuss it when we get around to Williams’ post.)
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
People have already forgotten how pathetic VC was vs the bobcats
he was pathetic
wow vince carter only had capt jack on him and gerald wallace two guy that dont play defense right?? he should have lit them up every night right. it doesnt matter if he goes 1 for 30 , but the 1 comes at the right time. he hit some big shots in that series and they swept them. so how did he hurt the team. didnt vc also play good defense on wallace?
Don't use logic.
It’s not applicable for haters.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
yea they play defense, they play offense too…so their defense was good enough to shut vince down, but vince’s defense wasnt good enough to shut them down…and thats the whole point UNC-15-FAN. wallace did what in the series 18-9 on 48% shooting and 45% 3’s and i wonder if capt jack’s knee was 100% how much better his defense would be. Tell me how you feel tomorow night watching Boston in the finals…if it doesnt bother you at all then yea sure I see your point, if it does then find accountability to move forward…unc15 is a long time ago…
Uhhhh What?
Carter didn’t guard Wallace. He guarded Jackson. Jackson sucked, go ask Bobcats fans.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
The Bobcats are a great defensive team.
Players struggle against great defensive teams. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be great defensive teams.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
By the way, talking about mental focus
Look at this picture:
Can you since Vince’s swagger and “arrogance” there? That’s what I’m talking about. That’s how he has to approach games to be great. WHEN he’s doing that he’s virtually unstoppable because he hits difficult shots that you can’t really have a defense for.
But instead he usually gets into games deffering, passing too much, and watching passively the game.
D+
The magics offense is based on ball movement. And at Carters current age, he cant move without the ball. And to get him involved movement stops for an iso and never begins again
my response to that is rashard lewis moves?
wow. what game are you watching? rashard stays in the corner waiting for vince or jameer to drive so he can get his shot. peaches too. that just wasnt working against boston.
I agree completely
But i was going to save that for a later post
I give him a C
He wasn’t a bad player so to speak but he was brought it for a specific reason and he didn’t meet the expectation.
The team has an option on him after next year…He could potentially see 19 mil fly out the window…He’s going to kill it next year.
One Freaken Second
A comment!
After reading all the comments, it is amazing to the expertise that have responded to this article. If you read all of the comments and with hold yours, it funny as hell the bickering back and forth. Are you out of your mind, how did you come up with that crap, you have to be pretty dumb to believe that and all the questioning of the IQ’s and legal parents. Bottom line – none of this will change the price of eggs in China and I hope does not get to Ottis. It is fun to think you are smarter than the other guy and question his audacity to reply with his quest for basketball knowledge. Keep it going…….
Agreed!
I too I’m amazed at the sheer volume of raw data analysis and quid pro quo… on and on and on…
The truth is… from a strict grading perspective; there is very little difference between a B- and a C. I think we all GET the point… BOTH!
Furthermore, I think we all are disappointed in Vince Carter and that we thought that he would get us over the hump, so to speak to the Championship… In reality, we had fine performances from Howard, Jameer, even JJ, but in the end, it was a Team-Wide deficiency… a lack of effort at the right time, our hour of need.
The great thing is… the Team is YOUNG and improving with each series. We’ll get there soon enough! Go Magic!
VC grade: B+
For the poster above who believes that there is no difference between the playoffs and the regular season. I mean, i don’t know what to say. You talk about all these numbers which “prove” there is no difference. First off, statistics are meant to assist in analysis, not be the determining factor. Regardless, i haven’t seen this “numbers which prove there is no difference between the playoffs and the regular season.” All i’ve read is you talking about them.
But the more important factor is that no numbers can possibly prove anything of the sort. It is like saying that you have numbers or stats that prove that height and athletic ability have no affect on one’s ability to play in the NBA. You can show us this “proof” but it is meaningless. The most obvious difference between the regular season and the playoffs is simple and undeniable: stakes. There is more at stake with each game in the playoffs than there is with each game in the regular season, on average. Not only is there a difference, but an absolutely HUGE difference. Thus, when it is more important, everyone including players, coaches, etc., give more effort. This is basic logic. Thus, the “it is more intense” fact. It is more intense simply because there is more at stake. If anyone can argue against this they are plain being irrational.
And the stakes and the intensity is what makes the difference. This difference brings on something called pressure. The pressure to perform and to win. The winners have the ability to cope with this pressure. They sink 2 free throws with the game on the line in the dying seconds, especially if they are an 85% free throw shooter. Do you think that Vince missed those shots simply due to a statistical fluctuation, or because the pressure of the situation made it more difficult for him? If you watched the manner in which he missed, or even if you didn’t and were being rational, you know the answer.
And this is where Vince falls short and has fallen short throughout his career. This is why at the beginning of the season i got into so many arguments regarding Vince. Entire fan posts were dedicated to this very topic: is Vince a “loser.” I believe that i have been proven right in this regard. I said that he was a loser and that he would always be a loser, due to his mentality. The arguments against my position varied, but mostly on “he didn’t have a good enough team around him.” This was the excuse on why Vince only made it to the playoffs 6 out of 11 years and had never made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs. Just think about that, Vince before this year had NEVER won in the 2nd round of the playoffs. In his ENTIRE CAREER! Why?
Because the playoffs are different, because the intensity and the pressure are different, because physical talent alone won’t carry you in the playoffs, you need heart, desire, and a killer instinct. Say what you will about someone like Tim Duncan, but he came through under pressure, and Ginobli was an absolute assassin during the playoffs in years past. It is the same with every winner.
They are simply DIFFERENT than losers. Winners don’t look for excuses to lose. When they lose, and believe me, even winners lose, they just determine that they will come back even stronger and win. That’s what happened when Kobe and the lakers lost in ’08, they came back with a hunger that could not be surpassed in ’09. You could see it in the teams demeaner.
Anyway, i’ve rambled long enough. Good luck next year.
And I keep countering with this: Kevin Garnett was a loser until he started winning.
The idea of “losing” and “winning” as inherent traits within an athlete is lazy and does not qualify as analysis. If Vince is so terrible in pressure situations, how did he manage to hit tying three-pointers against Atlanta, Miami, and Charlotte? It’s all made up, this idea of “winning” and “losing.”
Had Orlando won the series against Boston, we’d likely regard Carter as a “winner,” even if he only average 15 points per game on middling efficiency in Orlando’s 4 wins. It is all arbitrary. There is no insight or analysis, and therefore no benefit, in labeling players in this way.
by Evan Dunlap on Jun 3, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it’s fair to label players this way after their careers have finished. Let’s face it, there are certain stars in the game’s history that played their way out of big moments. I think the talent difference is so thin when you reach the elite level, the guys that push themselves over the top are the ones with tistucular fortitude.
But it’s not fair to lable Vince yet. He’s still got years in the tank. He could potentially still be a part of a dynasty, who knows. But if he retires tomorrow the label will stick with him forever.
One Freaken Second
by magic fanatic on Jun 3, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
In the shape he's in right now... he should retire
Really, he’s too slow.
Seriously? He was the go to scorer on the second best team in the East and he’s got 18, maybe 37 million dollars on the table. You think he should walk away from that because he’s slow? Would you walk away from potentially 37 million dollars?
One Freaken Second
by magic fanatic on Jun 3, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
eh
only way we’re winning the boston series is if vince played a whole lot better. ergo…
by Half-man Half-gortat on Jun 5, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, or if they made two more shots in Game 1 and two more shots in game 2?
Heck, anyone could’ve made those shots. I’m not saying Vince didn’t have a bad series, but it’s still a team game.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Assuming vc’s and kg’s physical abilities and talents are exactly same and the difference would only be mental, I think with KG raptors and nets wouldve won more then what they did with VC. Assumption of course i dont expect anyone to agree. Bottom line is when KG was put on a good team…he won, and he had major contributions towards winning in forms of leadership ,INTENSITY, etc. When VC was put on a good team ( more stacked then what KG got when he was sent to boston) ,he didnt win….he didnt contribute as he was expected to. Maybe the whole winner and loser thing isnt very credible, but DESIRE TO WIN which could be easily observed. KG has it…VC doesnt
That's rubbish
Carter isn’t playing with 2 Hall of Famers. He’s playing with one, and he’s a borderline one himself.
Garnett went to a much better, much more top heavy team than the Magic. The Magic are stacked deep, sure, but you can’t put 8 guys on the floor.
by eltharion_doa on Jun 3, 2010 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I see this as:
KG is an a-hole and Vince is a nice guy. No credence to your arguement at all. And, watching those Nets and Raptors teams for years, there is no chance they would have been better with KG than VInce, especially the Raptors. and all that eitharion_doa said stands as true as well.
by nickswarriors16 on Jun 3, 2010 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Man ... the idiot commenters have really come out in droves since I've left OPP. A shame.
Y’all are lucky I don’t hang around here as often as I did when I wrote for the site, or else I’d be putting you fools to shame with your asinine assertions, flawed logic, and ridiculous arguments. I’m with Ben on this one … I’ll probably give Carter a B-/C+ because of his WHOLE BODY OF WORK, not just what he did in the playoffs. Yes, the postseason is what matter the most but you can’t cherry pick games here and there to sink a dude’s grade.
I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.
There's still a few left
Fighting the good fight.
by eltharion_doa on Jun 3, 2010 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, there were a few that came during the playoffs. Then, a WAVE of them came after the Game 2 loss vs. BOS.
Just check out all the Fan Posts. Just one of those things where all you can say is SMH.
FEAR THE MEER!
Well, hang in there guys.
The idiots should slowly go away as the off-season progresses.
I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.
One can hope.
Maybe they’ll go over to your site?
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
by slickw143 on Jun 3, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are you talking to me?
So if someone differs in opinion they are an idiot? That’s crazy? What’s the point of the blog if you call someone idiot for having a difference of opinion? I thought you want the blog to grow, but to call out those who disagree seems counterproductive. With growth comes diversity..
I still don’t see stats that say he is above average..
He declined in almost every category.. PTS, Blks, steals, assist rebounds, 3p%, FG%-this is all on per 36 minutes basis.
The guy was brought in to be a difference maker. Orlando had same record as last season, except this Orlando didn’t make the finals, and his numbers dipped in the playoffs-Like you said the most important part of the season.
I don’t appreciate being called an idiot. I have defended VC to the bitter end, but the guy had an average season, and is declining player. PERIOD.
The guy was brought in to be a difference maker. Olrando had same record as last season, early exit from the playoffs, and his numbers dipped in the playoffs. Like you said the most important part of the season.
I don’t apprecaite being called an idiot. I have defended VC to the bitter end, but the guy had an average season, and is declining player. PERIOD.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
But you haven't defended Carter to the bitter end
The bitter end is right now, and you’re not defending him.
by eltharion_doa on Jun 4, 2010 4:13 AM EDT up reply actions
No sir.
I am being honest about his end of the year evaulation.. I am not his agent.. I am a honest fan.
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
Even if Eddy's comment comes out as a little arrogant you're all invited to check out last year's playoff posts
and see for yourselves what he’s talking about.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
A Different Perspective
I never believed that VC was brought to Orlando to be the savior. He was the best alternative available to signing a long term contract with Turk. We knew he was past him prime and what his limitations and rep was. He did just ok. Trade him by the next deadline cuz he won’t get any younger next year.
by WhiteMenCantJump on Jun 3, 2010 8:48 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah I agree
I bet he knows his limitations pretty well. Sometimes he doesn’t WANT to acknowledge them because he made all those difficult shots all his career, but now he doesn’t have the leg strength to do them anymore so he’s out of his game, basically. That means he’s down mentally, and that means he won’t give his best defensive effort because when his offense doesn’t work, he’s down on himself and doesn’t give his best effort (especially defensively).
AGAIN – HE NEEDS TO WORK ON HIS ATHLETICISM
Outside of the VC grading argument, would anyone disagree that at times he looked like a newborn baby fawn on the court? lol
Break the Curse
I actually agree with this.
Like, not entirely, because I love Jameer, and I want to see him playing for the magic many years in the future. But aside from Chris Paul and Deron Williams, Curry is the one PG I would be strongly tempted to trade Jameer for straight up. Just an amazing scorer, already one of the NBA’s best pure shooters, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he ended up a legit top-10 passing point guard. Good character guy too and everything.
I feel like he’s got a massive ceiling… Golden State skews his stats, of course, but if he ended up being basically a shoot-first version of Steve Nash (with better defense), I wouldn’t be shocked.
The Magic's total second-round margin of victory: 101 points.
The Hawks' highest second-round game score: 98 points.
Wow...
Well, I shudder to think about Rashard’s end of season mark and the comments geared towards him… Did he do anything throughout the season to validate his salary? Did he play at all like a 4?
Did Dwight really play like the top five NBA franchise player people think he is, in the conference semis?
Did Marcin Gortat have any real noticeable impact in the latter stages of the playoffs?
My point is this: Use Vince as the scapegoat for this team’s playoff shortcomings all you want, that’s fair enough to an extent – he’s obviously not without blame – but bare in mind all of this team’s other shortcomings (of which, individually, may have been relatively minor but collectively, difference making).
…And to say that “but Vince was brought in to take this team to the next level, and it failed so it’s all on him” is beyond bogus. Across the board, this team fell short when it counted and it lost to a healthy Celtics team that feasibly, and in my opinion, would have beaten last year’s Magic outfit if they had more injury luck.
As for the Hedo comparisons – two things to ponder…
1. How did he perform this year after he got his money?
2. How far did his “clutch” playoff performances take the Magic (before 2009)? A first, second round exit? Who’s to see the ‘09 season result wasn’t the anomaly (and not this year’s?)
The grass always seems greener…
…And now let the attack begin, lol. In all seriousness though, these are all just discussion points coming from an external perspective. Deal with them how you please!
'The Crossover' - a Nets and Knicks podcast. http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=268817312
Good post.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
perfect comment
ben rusty slick, eltharion, and a few more, great comments guys. you are calling it right down the line. vc is my favorite player so i might be a little biased but i know he is not the reason orlando loss this year. could he have done more, sure, but like one of you said, give it time. i think he played with determination, and who doesnt have slumps at some point of your career.
Just watched game 7 of the Sixers - Raptors series back in 2001
Vince played with less heart and ability back then than he did with the Magic (shockingly enough). It’s just that he was double teamed more often and he passed the ball (assisted) more because of that, but other than that – in terms of effort he was superior for the Magic (at least compared to that elimination game).
He wasn’t much quicker back then either, just a step slower today. So… I don’t know what to say.
The difference is still in the legs though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjvY1ziTKYA
Now that’s leg strength.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Contact Us
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
