Off-Day Open Thread: Should Mike Miller or Tracy McGrady Figure into the Orlando Magic's Free-Agency Plans This Summer?
by Evan Dunlap on Apr 8, 2010 12:01 PM EDT
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In the last week, former Orlando Magic teammates Mike Miller and Tracy McGrady have expressed an interest in returning to Orlando during this summer's free-agency period. Here are Miller's comments, which he made after his Washington Wizards suffered a 27-point defeat to Orlando last night, via Andrew Melnick of Howard the Dunk:
"Look at what they have. For a shooter that is a dream come true. It would be exciting to go in there. Not only do they have a big guy who they have a chance to double, but they have shooters around the horn. It would be fun a experience for sure."
And here's McGrady, from Marc Berman of the New York Post:
"I hated it that I left. I hated I left because I established myself there and made a name for myself. It was a situation where the GM [John Weisbrod] that was there made a huge mistake."
[....]
"I think it's possible they'll get back to The Finals," McGrady said. "And if you add me to the mix, I like Orlando. We'll see."
Additionally, Brian Schmitz reports that McGrady has spoken to Magic shooting guard Vince Carter, his cousin, about returning to Orlando.
As Melnick notes, the Magic might have some voids to fill on the wings this summer. It's unlikely that they'll be able to re-sign J.J. Redick and Matt Barnes; Redick's a restricted free-agent with a $3.9 million qualifying offer, while Barnes can opt out of his $1.6 million deal for next season in order to seek a raise. Both players figure to command more than that on the open market, perhaps the full mid-level exception for each. Should the Magic lose one, Miller or McGrady might become viable alternatives, as they'll be cheaper.
Obviously, there are downsides. Miller's had trouble staying healthy, and though he's still a deadeye shooter--he's posted a True Shooting percentage of better than 58.8 in each of the last 6 seasons, and he's second among swingmen (minimum: 30 minutes per game) at 60.8% this season--he's spent each of the last 3 years trying to re-invent himself as a point forward, and has thus passed up numerous open shot attempts. Also, his lateral mobility is more-or-less gone, which makes him a defensive liability.
McGrady has his own set of red flags, as he's recovering from microfracture knee surgery and still trying to figure out how to play without the benefit of the all-world athleticism that helped him win back-to-back scoring titles in 2002/03 and 2003/04. Oh, and the way he sulked his way out of Orlando after that disastrous 21-61 season has made him Public Enemy No. 1 in the eyes of most Magic fans. Owner Rich DeVos, who'd be footing the luxury-tax bill once again next year, might be loathe to pay the man who publicly trashed his franchise after demanding--and being granted--a trade.
So they're likely not going to be the Magic's top options this summer, and I believe GM Otis Smith will focus on finding ways to retain Redick and Barnes before looking at external free agents. And, having spent the full mid-level exception on Mickael Pietrus just 2 summers ago, he might be less inclined to add more salary at that position when backup point guard--Jameer Nelson's the only point guard under contract for next season--is a bigger concern. Still, both Miller and McGrady want to return, and the Magic may indeed have a need for them.
So, which would you prefer the Magic pursue, and at what contract terms? Is either preferable to Redick or Barnes? Is adding another swingman over age 30 a wise investment?
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No thanks to McGrady.
And the other one well, I don’t know that much about him. I don’t think we should look at getting older people. I think we should focus on keeping JJ and Matt Barnes. It will be really crazy to see JJ in any uniform other than the Magic. Matt Barnes is where it’s at, and they should really try to keep him. If all else fails, I guess we can look at getting other free agents, but we should go for younger ones, not older ones.
No way.
I really liked Tmac and VC when they were in Toronto, but definitely not now. There’s only room for one. I’d much rather have VC. They just don’t work together when their on the floor together. Both are iso type of players. The only way I see Tmac in an orlando uniform is if he takes a role as a bench player reduced to 15 – 20 mins a game. I think he still has this perception that he’s a star player and will not be subjected to that. Orlando needs a hustle player and we already have that in Matt Barnes. Barnes is a better fit anyways. If Orlando doesn’t sign Barnes (he’ll opt out) then the only way McGrady will be in a magic uniform is for the Vet minimum. Otis will not justify any more than that. Either way, It be nice to see the cousins playing together again, but I think the Magic like winning.
T-Mac recently promised he will be an All-Star in 2011.
He is NOT mentally ready to accept a bench role. It’s sad that injuries diminished one who was one of the most talented guys in the league in the last decade, but that’s the way it is.
I’m afraid that if he comes to Orlando, he will accept a smaller role, at first, but then start demanding more minutes and become a problem.
Magic Fan since the 1992-1993 Season.
by North of the South on Apr 8, 2010 1:00 PM EDT reply actions
Miller maybe
T- mac on the other hand, no thank you…I think we need to bring back Barnes more than anything. Shooters can be lost and found, but defensive stoppers like Barnes are few and far between. I think JJ has made strides, and he does fit well into our system, however I don’t think he’s worth the full mid level, simply because his services are not rare or unique. My free agent fantasy is to see Danny Granger in a Magic uniform…however unlikely that may seem.
by Dome of the Rock on Apr 8, 2010 1:06 PM EDT reply actions
if only we drafted him instead of fran when we had the chance
Never trust a fart
by AB's triple double on Apr 8, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The lost son will return!
Wow, ever since Miller left I could swear that every year there is talk of him coming back. I like his game but keeping JJ and Barnes are more important. But if we lose one of them then Miller is an OK option for the vets minimum.
But backup PG will be key. Also, I think they do trade Gortat. They also have 2 draft picks; although the 2nd round pick will probably be a Euro investment.
LT Style, Electric Glide
"It's all part of the plan." Jeff Moorad and The Joker in the Dark Knight.
"Just because you went to the Finals last year, you can’t go out on the floor and expect teams to lay down. We got no heart. You can only make so many excuses. Everybody has to come and play hard, not just one or two guys."-Matt Barnes
I would vote for a McGrady Magic combo
but as others have said, I don’t see him taking a minimum contract or lesser role. I do agree Barnes and Redick should be priority, but after we do or do not sign those guys, I wouldn’t mind adding a potential weapon like McGrady into the mix. He is only 30 and can backup SG and SF and take on play making when needed.
If we lose Redick and Barnes or either, then we could use help, and T-Mac can play both positions. He has game that will transition to below the rim as needed.
But hey it won’t happen either way, T-Mac will go for the money.
I would consider Miller
With Nelson and VC, Miller wouldn’t have to try to be a point forward, and could return to being a shoot-first player. He’s never seemed to have any ego problems, which is a plus.
McGrady’s quote throws up a massive red flag for me, in that he’s still kvetching about Weisbrod, and saying Weisbrod made the wrong decision. He’s not being specific about which decision, but the proximate cause of the McGrady trade was T-Mac demanding an immediate improvement before the Howard draft, and then being unhappy with the results of that draft, so logically, that would mean that drafting Howard was the wrong decision. Given that he’s our star player, McGrady stating that him being drafted was a wrong decision strongly suggests to me that McGrady should not be on this team at all.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
I love T-Mac...
But I’d much rather have Miller, he’s basically a “super” JJ, meaning that he does everything and more, but I’ll give JJ the slight edge on D. T-Mac (sighs), I just don’t know where he would fit in our system.
Personally, I think we should keep Barnes for another year ONLY, if he elects to stay. I’d like to keep JJ as well, so my final answer is….
Keep JJ and Barnes both, if JJ is gone, hello Mike Miller. T-Mac, I “loved you” in the past (no homo) but now that I see it, that ship has sailed.
Vince Carter - Half Man, Half Retired
Matt Barnes - Half Man, Half Tattoo
by magic12ball on Apr 8, 2010 1:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
The main edge that JJ has over Miller or TMac is health.
Both Miller and TMac have a long history of injuries and we don’t really need that type of player on our team backing up Carter who has shown to be injury prone as well, even if the types of injuries are much less severe and even if he has shown the ability to bounce back from said injuries relatively quickly.
NBA Championship or bust in '09-10!!!! GO MAGIC!!!!
LOL...Rec'd for Super JJ comment..
But basically…he is….
"He is fast, but what I like about him is he looks like one of those track guys that actually knows how to run the ball and has good vision and patience. He is not just running at top speed. He knows when to use his speed, and he has some power and toughness, too.'' Barry Sanders about CJ2K
Dwight Howard >The Justice League of America
by Bonafidebrother on Apr 8, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Miller fits our system better than T-Mac.
But you’re right about both of them facing injury problems. I don’t know if I’d be excited to see Mike Miller again other than the nostalgia factor.
The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy
No, sir
That would look like too many stars on one team, and that is always an epic fail.
Good thing is that he simply isn’t coming our way.
Stay classy.
miller over tmac
loved tmac when he first got to ORL but as we all know things didnt work out. i still think he’s a good outside threat but so is miller. plus miller will toe the line better than tmac will. quick question though, with jj on his third year, can’t we sign him on bird rights? please enllghten me. thanks! oh and KEEP BARNES! we need what he brings to the game every night! i do hope we keep everyone after this season this time though. it will definitely help in our consistency on the court.
if anything...
i’d trade bass for a good back up PG plus picks or another player in a position we might need. i think bass is a good asset to have on the court as well though…
I'm pretty sure there are some Horse Hamburger Patties Available on the Cheap @ OPP.
Considering we have beaten, pounded and minced the horse to death re McGrady coming back to the Magic. Can we once and for all stop talking about this guy? He is not coming back…even for free. MARK MY WORDS.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Miller over T-Mac
Miller is the prototypical player for our system…a tall forward that can shoot and will hustle. yes, he has had some injuries but I wont dwell on them….he is a shooter and always be one. I cant think of another player inthe league that could come in and do exactly what “we” (meaning SVG and the team) need him to do and not see a hiccup. I can say the same for T-Mac. He just seems to me to want to be the “man” and that aint happening here. Dwight is “Superman” and the rest of the squad are his “Superfriends” meaning that they understand on a lesser team they would be the MAN (i.e. ’Shard and the Sonics after Jesus Shuttlesworth left) I dont hink that T-Mac could accept that….I think Miller could…
"He is fast, but what I like about him is he looks like one of those track guys that actually knows how to run the ball and has good vision and patience. He is not just running at top speed. He knows when to use his speed, and he has some power and toughness, too.'' Barry Sanders about CJ2K
Dwight Howard >The Justice League of America
I took a look at the top 50 Free Agent list on NBAfanhouse
Considering the amount the Magic might be willing to spend and avoiding “older” players, there are not many good choices at SF/SG on the list. Barnes is not on the list (but should be), but I would say Barnes, Travis Outlaw and Mike Miller (if Miller would take a big pay cut from his current $9.7M) are the top fits. A SG JJ, Anhony Morrow and Roger Mason appear to be the picks.
I could see Outlaw fitting in with his defensive skills and improved shooting. Miller is a great shooter, but his defense is lacking to say the least. Barnes has proven to be a good fit but wants to finally get a good contract. If I were Otis I would offer $10M over 3 yeats and see what happens. Outlaw would likely cost more.
Mason fits the Miller mold but is 3 or 4 inches shorter. Morrow brings one of the best jump shots in the league and is accompanied by a really good jump shot. Of the three, strangely enough, JJ is the better defender as well as being better at driving the basket and drawing fouls. JJ is probably going to draw attention and Otis will have a tough decision.
McGrady’s reduced mobility increases the feeling that he would be a defensive liability. His 3-point shooting is no better than average and he is not an aggressive rebounder. Hard to see the fit given the players the Magic have coming back.
"Loose ball foul on whatever the hell his name is." - Joey Crawford calling a foul on Stojko Vrankovic
The only way to stop LeBron is Smith and Wesson, but even that's a double team.
by NC Magic Fan on Apr 8, 2010 2:42 PM EDT reply actions
Don't forget about Azubuike
He could come cheap since he just came off surgery. Good 3pt shooter, I don’t know about the rest of game though.
NBA's Present: Dwight, Lebron, D-Wade...
Future: KD, D-Rose, Tyreke...
Past: Shaq, The Boston Celtics, Greg Oden...
Azubuike is solid.
He’s like a more polished, less athletic Pietrus — unfortunately, right down to the lack of assists. A good but not great defender, strong shooter with some inside scoring skills but not much ballhandling ability. Generally plays smart, but is something of a ball hog. I’m not sure if I’d want him playing beside Pietrus, given that they do duplicate each other somewhat.
Bass is a kind of fish.
Sounds like I'd rather have JJ
JJ’s playmaking and ball-moving is vital to our bench’s success. He makes up for MP’s selfishness.
I wouldn’t be upset if we picked him up though. Your description of him made it sound like a perfect fit for our team… until you mentioned he might not be a good fit with Pietrus. Two Pietruses sounds scary. Our bench would be extremely streaky. They could break the game open for us, but could easily shoot us right out of it.
NBA's Present: Dwight, Lebron, D-Wade...
Future: KD, D-Rose, Tyreke...
Past: Shaq, The Boston Celtics, Greg Oden...
Depends on how much money they're willing to take.
For the right price, why the hell not? They are good guys and won’t present any chemistry issues. If they’re willing to take less money, bring em on. Defensively, Dwight Howard is good enough to cover everyone’s asses.
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Apr 8, 2010 3:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
T-Mac is a cancer
He has never gotten out of the first round. He is injury prone. Oh and he will NOT take less money to play in O-town, at 30 this is the last chance for him to grab a fat check. T-Mac is a bad decision and I see him landing on a young team who thinks he can be that veteran leader; think Clippers, Bucks or Bulls. Did I mention he QUIT on us before? Oh well he QUIT on us back in ’04 in case you skipped that season.
Mike Miller on the other hand is the man. First formost he is a former Gator. All jokes aside I love Mike but, and this is a huge but, he is too old. Dwight, Jameer and Ryan Anderson are the future core of this team and Mike Miller is only a short term solution. If we add JJ to the future of this team we will be able to OWN the Southeast for the next 5 seasons. I would much rather have a young, about to be in his prime, JJ than an over the hill Miller.
Why not package Gortat, the rights to Fran and our first round pick and enter the Collison sweepsteaks? I know its far fetched but isn’t T-Mac joining the squad also far fetched?
by The Magic Man on Apr 8, 2010 3:54 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Um no
I didn’t see him quit, I saw a 19 win Magic team that sucked and a superstar with back issues. But your other points are correct. He will not play for vet’s min.
I saw a 41.7% shooter in that last year, is what I saw.
Some of that could’ve been back issues, but I’m not convinced most of it wasn’t apathy/dumb shot selection.
I also saw — even before that year — a guy who demanded to run the offense because of some kind of vain Michael Jordan imitation attempt, even though he had lousy court vision and the team had a solid distributing PG in Armstrong.
I also saw the back problems, yes.
And then I saw all three problems get worse in Houston.
Bass is a kind of fish.
I saw a guy
that who may not have gotten out of the first round, but was lauded as having one of the best playoff performances ever by the sports writers. Kinda funny since he averaged about what Lebron has done all year, but that was a couple years ago before Lebron was killing it every single night.
But hey, obviously you don’t like Tracy’s game, and I do. Fair enough. I think for vet minimum contract and a backup role he would be fantastic if he can get some of his movement back over the summer with training and conditioning.
How many times do we have to hear about complaints of a great player that hogs the ball when he is on a team that has no good players? Kobe, Vince, Jordan, man they all did the same thing. Their teams just got better. And T-Mac was not as good as they were long term due to a frail body. Same thing happened to Penny. You really lost me when you talked about McGrady’s play before the 19 win season when the team totally sucked, as most people considered his time before then as the best of player of that time in the nba. Not just scoring either, I mean perhaps the best player in the league at that time. Strange, I guess people have different opinions, but the last year of infamy should not make you view the entire collection poorly.
Talking to people who were bitter about T-Mac leaving is like talking to a mannequin.
You may think you’re conversing with a human, hoping to have a discourse. But no, nothing you say matters because you’re talking to someone whose head is made of plastic. You could bring up that amazing 62-point game his last year as an example that “Hey, the guy was still playing and giving effort when healthy,” and they’ll come back just saying something about, “BUT HE QUIT ON THE TEAM!!!” or, “It was just to pad his own stats!!!”.
They don’t bring up a guy who had to lead his team in points, assists, steals, blocks, and rebounds (not counting Gooden or Hill, who each played less than 30 games for the Magic that year) the year before. They don’t bring up a guy who was 21, signed to be a complimentary player to Grant Hill, but was then thrust into the role of being the only legit scoring threat the team had for four years and handled it as well as one could for three out of four years. They don’t bring up that in T-Mac’s “dog year”, he had a higher PER than Vince even had AFTER he got traded to New Jersey, when his production skyrocketed from a PER of 17 while with Toronto earlier that year. Yes, T-Mac’s quitting was better than 99% of the players in the NBA full effort. They don’t bring up that the last year, our second best player was Juwan Freakin’ Howard, we had 21 (!!!) players on that team throughout the year, and the only guys on that team that are legit rotation players today are Gooden (and he’s close to setting a record for most teams in a career) and Zaza Pachulia (a career back-up).
Sorry, Eric, but they won’t listen to things like that.
I hate Varejao.
Yeah I know
I still have to say something though, as I feel T-MAc shouldn’t be treated like a bad piece of history, as that was some exciting times in O-Town, and which explains why I am so bitter about Grant Hill even though I know it was not his fault. Ruined a great era of basketball possibilities.
He was a great player. He never made his teammates better.
Do you remember that era? Every star SG in the league thought he could play the point, because Jordan played the point. None of them could play the point.
Kobe still tries — they had to rebuild that whole team to work around Kobe’s poor decision making as a passer. Clearly, that worked. The Lakers’ supporting cast is mostly post players, Kobe passes it in, that happens.
Imagine Kobe trying to run an offense with the second and third scoring options being guards. He wouldn’t know what to do. Then imagine a real point guard right there, and Kobe stifling that point guard’s ability to actually run the offense efficiently for the sake of his own ego. (I don’t think Derek Fisher counts here.) That’s what McGrady did to Armstrong, and that’s what McGrady did to Alston.
He was a great player, but (especially late in his tenure with Orlando, and throughout his run in Houston) refused to accept his own limitations and got smacked in the face repeatedly by them. Maybe he wasn’t apathetic — maybe he was just dumb. I don’t care WHO your teammates are… nobody shoots 41% doing things right.
Bass is a kind of fish.
Disagree
Did you watch every game throughout his tenure? I sure did. I didn’t agree with Orlando getting rid of Darrell, but you are laying all of the blame on T-Mac, funny you said yourself, when you have a great player, you build the team around him, and whala, Kobe has won a few championships because of it. Anyways, there were too many problems with that team that had 93 million dollars of salary in rehab, and no system in place. Doc Rivers was no leader, and we had no way to overcome the loss of Hill. You can’t have watched many games, its the only way I can understand your view. Oh well, I guess I saw McGrady’s time in a different light than you did. It is pretty disheartening to see people dump on what he did though.
Are you denying that he insisted on initiating the offense?
Or saying that he was GOOD at initiating the offense?
It cuts both ways — if the Magic had built an offense T-Mac could run, that would’ve been great. But if T-Mac had modified his game to work with the players he had (and yes, that would’ve included deferring to Armstrong in terms of creating the offense), that would also have been great. They didn’t, and he didn’t.
And given that a) the team T-Mac had to work with was mostly here before he was, and b) T-Mac pulled the same ball-hogging stunt in Houston, when he DID have (and completely under-utilized) a dominant post scorer, I know which side I’m putting the bulk of the blame on.
Bass is a kind of fish.
Go back and watch some of the playoff series from those years.
T-Mac consistently found open players when the entire opposing team was focused on stopping him. You know what happened? Unless he was passing to Pat Garrity, those open opportunities were bricked by guys the likes of Andrew DeClerq, Shammond Williams, JACQUE VAUGHN, Jeryll Sasser. Must I go on?
Go ahead and live in a fantasy world of anyone in the history of the game other than maybe Magic or LeBron making those guys better. T-Mac is not them. But he did an awfully admirable job of continuing to pass to guys that had failed to deliver time and time again. Seriously, T-Mac did not do anything to you, move on for the love of God. Same to every Magic fan out there. He was guilty of “quitting” (with a PER of over 25) on a team run by a man he did not get along with, and then dissing him after the fact. He didn’t trash the city or its fans, he just did the same thing that Bosh might do this summer.
I hate Varejao.
Fair enough.
I’ve got to admit, I always forget how bad that 2003-04 team was… some part of my brain is like, “well, they had Darrell! They had Nick Anderson! Don’t tell me there weren’t other options!” Except, of course, that they didn’t have those guys any more, did they? And when they did have those guys, they were pretty good (despite having basically no frontcourt.)
And honestly, I’d say my memories of T-Mac were tainted by two things: my resentment at his overshadowing of Armstrong, who was my favorite player, and his tenure with Houston, when he unequivocally did hog the ball, take way too many low-percentage shots, and fail to involve a more efficient player (Yao) in the offense as much as he should have. (And honestly, I don’t know that Alston wasn’t deserving of some of that blame.)
Oh, and ultimately my dislike for Michael Jordan, which spilled over into a dislike for most post-Jordan players who patterned their game after Jordan’s. Kobe, McGrady, Stackhouse… Vince to a somewhat lesser extent. (I never felt Vince was really committed to playing point SG.) You know, star shooting guards in general — except the three-point specialists. Always loved the three-point specialists.
So… yeah. Probably underestimating McGrady drastically, probably not being at all fair. For complicated reasons, though — that makes it better, right?
No?
Damn.
Bass is a kind of fish.
It's all gravy train.
As long as someone can admit when they have a bias, they’re entitled to have it. I just can’t stand people who spout out things like they’re facts when the reality is starkly different.
And yes, we all loved Darrell, and things that last year probably would’ve been different if he was still there, even in his diminished form.
I hate Varejao.
JJ > Matt > Miller > T-Mac (Preference, not talent)
I would prefer JJ over the rest, mainly because he is in his prime and the youngest (26?).
If Barnes doesn’t resign, I think we would be better off drafting a replacement than signing one of Miller or McGrady. Then using the rest of the FA money on a backup PG (maybe bringing JWill back).
The PG depth in this draft class is very shallow and we would be better served using it on a swingman than reaching for a PG. I have no clue which swingman would be available at our pick, but I know we’d get better value with a SG/SF than a PG.
Pretty much, I think it comes down to who is more important to replace: J-Will (backup PG) or Barnes (3rd or 4th swingman)? Use the rest of FA money on one, draft a replacement for the other.
I think both are pretty equal in importance, but due to the weak depth at PG in the draft class, I say draft a 2/3, sign a PG.
NBA's Present: Dwight, Lebron, D-Wade...
Future: KD, D-Rose, Tyreke...
Past: Shaq, The Boston Celtics, Greg Oden...
J-Will may stay on
for the vets minimum or little more. He wants to be in Orlando with his family and probably has another year or 2 left in his knees as a backup. I cannot imagine he will get an “offer he can’t refuse” somewhere else,
"Loose ball foul on whatever the hell his name is." - Joey Crawford calling a foul on Stojko Vrankovic
The only way to stop LeBron is Smith and Wesson, but even that's a double team.
by NC Magic Fan on Apr 8, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't he going back for another year?
NBA's Present: Dwight, Lebron, D-Wade...
Future: KD, D-Rose, Tyreke...
Past: Shaq, The Boston Celtics, Greg Oden...
He is undecided
but he reminds me of a 6’9" JJ.
"Loose ball foul on whatever the hell his name is." - Joey Crawford calling a foul on Stojko Vrankovic
The only way to stop LeBron is Smith and Wesson, but even that's a double team.
by NC Magic Fan on Apr 9, 2010 6:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he's nearly the shooter that JJ is though (or RA for that matter)...
NBA Championship or bust in '09-10!!!! GO MAGIC!!!!
As Ben said...
“He’s posted a True Shooting percentage of better than 58.8 in each of the last 6 seasons, and he’s second among swingmen (minimum: 30 minutes per game) at 60.8% this season.” He’s a better shooter than either if you’re talking about production on the court. The dude doesn’t shoot enough.
I hate Varejao.
54.7% eFG% for his CAREER, by the way.
I hate Varejao.
What does it matter?
It’s a different game, you can’t compare NBA stats for one player to college stats for another… Redick’s career best eFG% season (this year at 53.4) is less than Miller’s career number. Anderson is shooting 51.9 eFG% this year, an improvement on his 47.8% last year. So yeah, at least in terms both up to this point and this year, Miller is a better shooter than either of them. He’s a really underrated quality player, probably even underrates himself, unfortunately.
I hate Varejao.
We're still talking about Gordon Haywood, yes?
I’m trying to compare apples to apples in seeing what JJ’s and RA’s #‘s were compared to what Haywood’s numbers were in college to determine if your statement about his eFG% showing that he was a better shooter (in college) than JJ or RA. So, yes, it does matter!
NBA Championship or bust in '09-10!!!! GO MAGIC!!!!
Hah I thought we were talking about Mike Miller.
Whoooooops.
I hate Varejao.
I like Da'Sean Butler.
He can score as a slasher or perimeter shooter, good defender and rebounder, and he also plays with a lot of heart and hustle. However, he just had surgery on that knee and I’m not sure he’d be able to contribute right off the bat. I also like Gordon Hayward but he might stay at Butler for another year or he might not fall to us even if he does enter the draft.
I cannot object to T-Mac strongly enough!
If you look at the way he just acted with the rockets, you’ll see nothing has changed with him except the level of talent he can offer and his health. His presence would kill the Magic much in the same way Sheed has vampired the Celtics.
Miller still has worth, but not as much as JJ or Matt. I’d really prefer to see the Magic go after young guards. I think both Azibuike and Anthony Morrow would be good fits. Morrow is probably out of the Magic’s price range though. J-Will should stay at PG. I’d be surprised to see him go.
My 3 yr old's Teacher: Is he yelling white power?
My Wife: No, he's yelling Dwight Howard.
I don't see Miller as a defender
I like Barnes’ toughness and meanness in the starting lineup; neither of these guys will give us anything like that. If Barnes gets a MLE deal then maybe we can’t afford to bring him back, but if it’s more like double his current salary, then I’d like to see us pay him.
Don't think either of these guys has much relevance to our team.
I think we definitely want Barnes and JJ back if we can afford them. (I also think I’ll be upset if we don’t find room for at least one.)
But aside from my personal feelings about McGrady, both of these guys are injury-prone defensive liabilities. I know backups have weaknesses, but these are weaknesses I won’t accept from a backup.
As I (and other people) said, Azubuike and Morrow would fit great into this team (if we could afford them but not JJ/Barnes.) Other than that… we might have to go for trades, as I don’t see any other FAs who I care for out there.
Bass is a kind of fish.
Azubuike and Morrow... We accept all Warriors cast-offs!
Funny how guys from GS usually end up being good fits for our team. Those 2 definitely fit the mold of swingmen we can just plug in at the 2 and 3.
Oh, and let’s bring in CJ Watson while we’re at it!
NBA's Present: Dwight, Lebron, D-Wade...
Future: KD, D-Rose, Tyreke...
Past: Shaq, The Boston Celtics, Greg Oden...
Nah -- Watson doesn't do anything we need.
We need a guy who can run an offense and (to a lesser extent) shoot the three. We’ve gone over this many, many times, but the fact remains that Watson cannot run an offense.
Bass is a kind of fish.
Yeah, that's what Otis said last summer, too.
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
by magicfaninTN on Apr 9, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I just mentioned him because he's a Warrior
Our backup PG needs to be a facilitator for our second string. I know Watson is not that.
NBA's Present: Dwight, Lebron, D-Wade...
Future: KD, D-Rose, Tyreke...
Past: Shaq, The Boston Celtics, Greg Oden...
I wouldn't mind Watson
Especially if we lose Williams and keep Redick. Watson can bring the ball up the floor and be the virtual SG while Redick is the virtual PG.
Can Redick run an offense now?
I wasn’t aware he had that kind of court vision.
And why would we be making those kinds of accommodations in order to get Watson. Is Watson so good at other things that we’d ignore his limitations as a passer and three-point shooter?
Bass is a kind of fish.
Man you are just full of the negativity
Yes as a matter of fact, Redick does run the offense quite often, many times he initiates the offense. You seem to be more writing responses to be negative than to provide any insight or thoughtful discussion. I like Watson, better than any other option I have seen. And I think Watson has PG skills and scoring ability. Why is it that I have to answer questions rather than just comment? I don’t think we will have to accommodate anything like you seem to, I was just trying to say that Redick can help in that department as he plays a PG type role now.
You don't have to answer rhetorical questions.
I assumed the answers were so obvious that everyone could figure them out. Shockingly, that appears not to be the case.
Redick is averaging 1.8 assists in 22.1 minutes per game. How is that a “PG type role”? That’s just about an average statistic for a traditional SG. JJ is a good SG, but he’s never played point guard, and there is nothing in his statistics to suggest that he has the ability or the inclination to do so.
Watson, playing mostly SG but some PG, is averaging 2.8 assists in 27.5 minutes a game.
Corey Maggette, a notorious ball-hog who mostly plays SF — in the SAME SYSTEM as Watson — is averaging 2.4 assists in 29.7 minutes per game. Hey, maybe Maggette’s a point guard too! He’s right up there with Redick, and very close to Watson, after all.
As for Watson’s shooting, he’s shooting 31% from beyond the arc this season. In all fairness, he has been better in the past. But when you look at the excellent three-point shooting percentages which have been posted by Morrow, Curry, or even Reggie Williams, it’s hard to argue that Golden State has an offense which makes it difficult for a good three-point shooter to shoot well.
I won’t deny that Watson is pretty good at driving the lane, but that’s the least important quality for a backup PG in Orlando.
I am providing “insight”. I’m providing actual statistics. I’m talking about things that actually happen. You’re making up an imaginary world in which Redick is a point guard.
And then when people tell you that’s not actually true, and attach actual evidence to support that claim, you say, “well, I think that this thing I made up is true. Why are you negative about my imaginary world?” I’m sorry — I tend to be “negative” about things that are wrong. Kind of a personality quirk I have.
Bass is a kind of fish.
Man talk about sad
You admit to being a jerk when someone voices their opinion about a subject that you don’t agree with. I said nothing wrong. Watson has scoring ability? Yes. Redick initiates the offense EVERY NIGHT. Yes. I never said Redick would be a point guard. I said Watson would dribble the ball up and Redick could act as virtual PG by initiating the offense. Which he does now. Again, every night. But really I don’t understand, you are being a frigging jerk to me for liking a player, you are talking bad about Watson like a 10+ pt/ g and 2.8 a/g wouldn’t translate well to our bench. Worse you are talking badly about me like like I am stupid for liking Watson and believing he would fit nicely. Get over yourself. My thoughts and opinions are just as backed up as yours, only I can respect someone for not wanting Watson, you however are too insecure to respect my opinion that he would be a good fit. Get over yourself and quit talking down to people. I actually would live Livingston the most, but hey someone brought up Watson, so I voiced my opinion. Don’t make people feel like that isn’t welcome, and try structuring your opinion in a way that doesn’t read like a condescending jerk next time. I didn’t say “Hey let’s get that Marbury guy, he is a team player” Get over urself.
I'm sorry if I got upset there.
Well, no, I WAS upset in that last post, because I felt you were accusing me of reflexively shooting the notion of Watson down without considering it.
Which I’d never do — trust me, I’ve considered Watson many times since last summer when there was first talk of him coming to Orlando. For me, there’s nothing in his track record which suggests he can run an offense (in the way that, say, Jameer or J-Will… or Hedo when we had him… actually runs an offense), and I feel we need a “true” point man, i.e. a player who can really control the offense, on the floor at all times. Moreover, I’m not impressed with his history as a three-point shooter.
That’s the conclusion I’ve come to — I could be wrong about Watson’s skills, or the team’s needs, or both. (I was dubious of J-Will, for example, and he’s worked out pretty well for us.)
But the thing is, I’ve gotten into a lot of discussions on this board about Watson, so I guess I do tend to take those kinds of things as already established, and when Watson comes up, I’m just like, “oh, by the way, I still don’t like that guy.” No need to get into it at length over and over again.
I wasn’t trying to make a big argument about it — I feel like my argument’s already been made and doesn’t need to be recapped. (If I had any sense, I probably would’ve just let it stand as is.) But I guess that’s not as readily apparent to everyone as it was to me, and there was a miscommunication, and I…
…well, I kind of forgot that the in-depth kind of stuff about Watson I was referring to was, um, actually stuff I posted like three months ago.
Anyway, I’m sorry for losing my temper there. My fault. Sorry.
Bass is a kind of fish.
It's hilarious.
“I am providing "insight". I’m providing actual statistics. I’m talking about things that actually happen. You’re making up an imaginary world in which Redick is a point guard.
And then when people tell you that’s not actually true, and attach actual evidence to support that claim, you say, "well, I think that this thing I made up is true. Why are you negative about my imaginary world?" I’m sorry — I tend to be "negative" about things that are wrong. Kind of a personality quirk I have."
That’s basically exactly what I just said about you and your flawed memories of McGrady’s time in Orlando. Comedy gold.
I hate Varejao.
No, that was a difference of opinion.
I think there are statistics to support the notion that McGrady was a great player with Orlando (the points per game) and statistics to support the notion that his decision-making was at times problematic (the shooting percentage).
The question of whether his insistence on playing as the team’s facilitator/passer/primary ball-handler did the team more good or more harm is an open one — as that kind of thing always is, it’s a matter of opinion. I have one opinion, you have another opinion, and that’s okay.
Bass is a kind of fish.
Eh, he shot 45% for 3 years straight.
But the 4th year he definitely wasn’t making the best decisions often enough, and his percentage dropped to 41, then continued to be poor in Houston. The poor supporting cast probably played a part in the 4th year here, but in Houston he didn’t have that excuse to fall back on.
I hate Varejao.
Why?
Our backup PG needs to be a facilitator for our second string.
Why not have a scoring/distributing PG like J Will and Jameer? Wouldn’t that be more of an interchangeable parts type of roster?
And who says CJ can’t distribute? “Not being asked to” (see also, GSW) is not the same as “not able.”
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
No, but Watson's assists per minute ARE the same as Corey Maggette's assists per minute.
His passing numbers are just too bad to support the notion that he has any kind of untapped talent as a point guard. I feel like, even if you played Jameer or J-Will at shooting guard (don’t ever do this), they’d get more than an assist every ten minutes. Especially in a fast—paced system like the Warriors’…
And yeah, J-Will DOES facilitate our second string… by passing the ball to them and getting assists.
Bass is a kind of fish.
You are completely disregarding
the Warriors system and the situation. Maggette, Ellis, all of the big name scorers have been injured this year. Not many scoring options. And Watson is trying to score to improve his stock. And he plays on the Warriors, dysfunctional, Stephen Jackson blow-up, no playoff hope (even when there was playoff hope) 8 man team half the year Warriors. You have to recognize that in your breakdown of a player, you have to see that possibilities, not just what is there. With your mind set the Magic would have Okafor right now.
Miller as point forward?
I suppose we can consider him as a cheap Hedo. But I think he should only be considered if ever Redick or Barnes leave.
I don’t really see where T-Mac will fit in our system. But then again if he is ever signed he HAS TO fit in what SVG wants out of him or he won’t be seeing minutes.
JJ
In his prime, younger, better shooter, better play maker, better ball-mover, improved defender.
Don’t get me wrong, Barnes is very important too, in that he can defend the elite players and brings the “tenacity” (overused word) to this team. But I think guys like him are easier to replace than players like JJ. Draft Barnes’ replacement.
NBA's Present: Dwight, Lebron, D-Wade...
Future: KD, D-Rose, Tyreke...
Past: Shaq, The Boston Celtics, Greg Oden...
You make a very compelling argument for Redick...
and I’m sold on it. I like Barnes too but if we can only keep one, I think Redick should be the priority because he would be better for the long term since Barnes is already 30. Even if Barnes bolts, we still have Pietrus to be our defensive stopper although it’s nice to have 2 since stoppers can get in foul trouble quite often.
Win This Year and We'll then Figure out the Future
Nice to hear (read) all the chatter about the future. I’m just damn excited we’re heading into the playoffs with a solid team with great depth. I say that we should focus on the now. If we don’t win it all this year, the team needs to assess why and then fill its needs in the off season. If we don’t win it, would Miller or TMac coming back likely be the key piece of the puzzle for the future? Not likely.
I also just hope that if we do win it that the Devos family doesn’t do the 1997 Marlins thing and break it up due to costs. With a Championship banner and a new arena opening in Oct 2010, the Magic will be at their all time high in value. Let’s hope we don’t get put on the market and that the ownership is really focused on a long term committment to making the Magic a powerhouse to contend with for years.
I agree
Everything changes if we get that championship. It may make Barnes more likely to leave as he’s done what he was brought here to do. So would Gortat, he probably would want to get more minutes. J-Will might retire, so will Foyle and Dad.
I don't see a problem
With the magic offerring the vets minimum, 1 yr contract to mcgrady. Same as the 76ers did this yr with iverson. If he plays up, causes problems etc, either bench or waive him with little loss. If he is more interested in a championship shot than the $$$, and if he really truly wants to play for Orlando, he will take that offer and those terms.
Bleeding Blue Black and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
by FLYNN47 on Apr 9, 2010 12:15 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Come on. Philly was a mess & trying to sell tickets when they signed Iverson.
It’s not like they brought Iverson in during the summer when they had the chance. And look how well that signing turned out for the Sixers. Why bother?
"I've had people say, 'I don't need to check the [player statistics]. I've seen it with my eyes.' Well, I would also say your eyes lie to you sometimes, and some of the guys you may really like and think are really doing things, when you get deeper into it, aren't or vice versa." ~Stan Van Gundy
by magicfaninTN on Apr 9, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Because we aren't the sixers....
You miss the point I was making- the sixers had nothing to lose (a few million is nothing to an NBA team) and everything to gain. Yes, ticket sales, yes merchandise, yes publicity and yes- the option that the minute things don’t look like working to plan, the magic cut strings to mcgrady and still nothing lost.
Bleeding Blue Black and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
by FLYNN47 on Apr 9, 2010 4:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Iverson is a mess off the court at this stage in his life, unfortunately.
That’s prevented from any kind of legit comeback on it. T-Mac doesn’t have any kind of off-the-court baggage that compares to AI’s. The dude’s spent his time off in Darfur rather than in casinos.
I hate Varejao.
I hope they can keep both Barnes & J.J.
Barnes probably has more value on the Magic than on nearly any other team. Rashard is statistically the worst rebounding PF in the league (since he’s an SF) and Dwight alone doesn’t make the Magic the #1 Defensive Rebounding team in the NBA. Most people don’t realize that Barnes is statistically the second best rebounder in the NBA at SF per 40 minutes. Gerald Wallace 9.9, Barnes 8.5, Mbah a Moute 8.5, Marion 8.1, Deng 7.8, Durant 7.6 & LeBron 7.5. Miller & T-Mac are great rebounders at SG but won’t have the impact on the boards at SF that Barnes does.
Rebounding at SF is vital and so is Barnes’ efficency & defense. 3’s, layups & dunks are basically the only shots Barnes takes and he’s the only one who can make those types of hard cuts to the basket that result in easy layups, dunks or put-backs for Dwight. Since Barnes has been named a starter he’s shooting a ridiculous 52.6% FG & 42.4% 3-point.
J.J. is the only backup SG the Magic have that can get other people open looks. Imagine the second-unit offense with MP running the SG. If the defense shuts J. Will down the bench will struggle to put up points because no one else can create for others or themselves.
If the Magic get either Miller or T-Mac then J.J’s value, at least on paper, decreases because both Miller & T-Mac can create open looks for the second unit but like others mentioned their durability is a big concern.
If the Magic could only keep one of them and were able to land either Miller or T-Mac then I would roll the dice on Miller/Mac’s health and keep Barnes. If Barnes gets replaced by Miller or T-Mac then the Magic no longer have a starter who can defend LeBron, Kobe, Mello, Durant, etc. unless they move MP back to starting SF but they would no longer have an SG/SF lockdown defender in both the starting rotation and second unit. For a team that understands the importance of defense I think keeping Barnes is the correct decision.
When there’s a trade can the difference in salaries be made up for with $? If so, what about moving Bass for a $1 mill a year player (who won’t see minutes) to free up another $3 mill a year for Barnes & J. J.?
"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"
That sucks
What do you think the Magic should do? Is there a chance they can get a viable replacement for either Barnes or J.J. with a Bass trade? Do you think someone will really offer Barnes an MLE? I see him as a great fit on Orlando and that’s why his numbers have been so good as a starter on the Magic but I don’t think he will have the same impact on other teams. I see J.J. as a good fit for any team so he will probably get plenty of offers including a possible starter role on some but should/can the Magic match if J.J. gets a Gortat esque offer?
"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"
Would that close the door on Miller/T-Mac?
Assuming Otis matches the MLE for J.J. what do you then make of the future of Barnes & Bass in a Magic uni and most importantly if they lose Barnes will MP likely then go back to the starting SF and they will bring in someone new/cheap as the backup SF?
"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"
I'd think if the Magic retain JJ and Barnes at appropriate prices, that it would eliminate the need/desire to get either of them.
I hate Varejao.
For sure
but I’m wondering what happens if J.J. gets the MLE and they can’t afford to offer Barnes as much as another team can? Would they move MP back to the starting SF and sign someone for cheap (like Barnes this season) to become the backup SF?
That would be a big concern IMO because we would essentially be downgrading both the starting and backup SF position and losing the only other good wing defender we have. If Barnes is gone, unless RA is taking over as the starting PF we have to have an elite rebounding SF or we will get crushed on the offensive boards against the bigger teams (which are basically all of the title contending teams).
"It can be done, you can just crush somebody"
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