Orlando Magic News for February 23rd: Vince Carter Does the Near Impossible; A Look Back at Penny
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Video: Vince Carter hits 85-foot shot sitting down
J.E. Skeets of Ball Don't Lie provides video of Vince Carter's incredible feat, where he hits - roughly - an 85-foot shot sitting down at today's practice. -
Player Audit: How Good Was Penny?
Neil Paine of Basketball-Reference looks back and wonders how good was Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway before injuries derailed his career.So, to return to the question of "How good was Penny?", the answer is either going to be "really good for a brief period of time, followed by a decade of injury-plagued mediocrity," or "we can't answer that question because we'll never know exactly how good he would have been without the injuries". If health is a skill, then Hardaway lost it forever in mid-November of 1996, when an inflamed left hamstring caused him to sit a game against the Raptors -- from there, it was the knee tendonitis, leading to the torn cartilage, leading to the calf strain, leading to the plantar fasciitis... etc. If health is a skill, Hardaway probably wasn't very good. But if you believe that the first injury that starts the snowball down the mountain is largely bad luck, then Hardaway was a legitimately great player, if only for an instant. Remember, in the Summer of '96 he was the young star of Dream Team III at the Atlanta Olympics, his Chris Rock-voiced alter ego was more popular than both the MVPuppets combined, and he was poised as the most likely player to take the torch from Jordan when the GOAT retired. Hardaway may not have delivered on that promise, but it's important to note that the promise was there, and it was legit, once upon a time.
More after the jump.
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Top 5 Franchise Players to Build Your NBA Team
Patrick Cassidy of Dime Magazine lists the top five franchise players to build an NBA team and for whatever reason, Howard is not listed. Curious. -
Five best in-game dunkers in the NBA
Kurt Helin of ProBasketballTalk states, in his opinion, the five best in-game dunkers in the league. Although Howard is not listed, he is given honorable mention. -
Study: Good players aren't afraid to touch teammates
UPDATE: Henry Abbott of TrueHoop notes an interesting study.Players patting each other on the butt may be funny. But what's not funny is winning games, and the evidence suggests that teammates who touch each other liberally on the court -- high-fives, fist-bumps, hugs, pats and the like -- tend to do that better than players who don't. [...]
Here's a fun homework assignment: next time you watch the Orlando Magic play, which will be tomorrow against the Houston Rockets, analyze the interaction between the players.
The researchers say they have not yet been able to prove any kind of cause-and-effect -- does the hugging and touching cause the wins?
It's a powerful form of communication that may do a lot to uplift and inspire teammates. -
Magic Offer Mixed Thoughts on 'Z' Possibly Returning to Cavs
UPDATE 2: Head coach Stan Van Gundy provides his thoughts on the MVP race in the NBA.The Orlando Magic, who would be most affected by next month's anticipated return to Cleveland of center Zydrunas Ilgauskas, gave mixed reviews on the subject Tuesday. [...]
Of bigger concern to the Magic is LeBron James, who is playing so well now that a day after the Magic started promoting Howard for the NBA Most Valuable Player Award, Van Gundy conceded that race to the Cleveland star.
"LeBron is going to get the award. You can talk about everything else if you want -- and there are a lot of good candidates for it -- but it's over,'' Van Gundy said. "It's not going to be a close vote. All the players and coaches in the league know who is going to get the MVP.''
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I deleted the video posted on the site to avoid redundancy.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
The Bigs are the easiest to build a team around
How could they not include DH in that list? Orlando has made it to the finals, so I think that proves that building a team around DH works. As much as I love CP3, I don’t think he should have been on the list. At least DH got an honorable mention on the dunk list.
Ball.
Not really
The NBA is all about wing scorers these days, not bigs. I’d still have Dwight in the top five (in fact, I’d have him second after James) and I agree, Paul shouldn’t be there (I love him but he’s not in the same league) but you can’t deny that the big playes in this league are wings, not bigs.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
The difference is, there are a ton of wings that can have an impact. How many good young bigs are there to build a franchise around? You’ve got Dwight, Bosh, Lee, Brook Lopez, maybe Amar’e, maybe Aldridge…and those are the only ones I can think of that could be franchise players (then again, it’s early morning, so I may be missing one or two). I’m not counting the guys like Duncan or Garnett that are still top-tier players, but near the end of their careers.
Wings? Good lord. LeBron, Durant, Melo, Gay, Deng, Wade, Ellis, Johnson, Jackson, Mayo…there’s probably at least twice as many wings that are arguably franchise players as there are bigs. It’s much easier to get a good wing than a good big, so if I was building a franchise from the ground up, I’d go for the top-tier big, and high second-tier wing, simply because if I grabbed a top-tier wing first, I’d probably wind up with a third-tier big.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
That's my point though
You don’t need a franchise big these days, IMO.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 9:01 AM EST up reply actions
To a large extent, I'd disagree
LA? Franchise big (Gasol – who I accidentally left off my list)
Boston? Franchise big (Garnett – who I deliberately left off my list due to age)
Orlando? Franchise big (Howard)
Cleveland? Couldn’t get it done with just LeBonBon, so they picked up Shaq
Dallas? Franchise big (Nowitzki)
Utah? Arguably franchise big (Boozer)
Really, Denver’s the only top team without a big I’d consider at least borderline franchise, and they have very very good role players in those positions (Nene, K-Mart, Birdman)
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Shaq's not a franchise big any more
Boozer’s borderline, as is Garnett at this stage of his career. In fact, I’d argue the Celtics are a contender – if they are – despite Garnett and his creaky knees, because their best two players these days are Rondo and Pierce.
I love Dirk and Gasol, but neither of them are your traditional franchise big. If you’re going to roll those guys, you need to look at Chris Bosh, Amar’e, Kevin Love, Zach Randolph…even Carl Landry can ball in the post with the best of them, although he’s undersized.
None of those guys are true centers, which is the point – you don’t need one. You can name the elite centers in the NBA on two fingers – Howard and Yao. All the other championship contenders have big men, sure, but athletic big men who run the floor and space the offense with jumpers, not guys like Dwight, Yao or the Shaq of old who ball inside every single possession.
You just don’t need that guy any more. The NBA’s moved on.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
You don't need an elite center but you, more or less, need an elite big man.
There are exceptions, though they are rare.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Gotta agree with Dark.
Look up and down the nba and there may be only a handful of true centers in the nba. You got Dwight, Shaq and Yao that can dominate (Shaq not so much but his size creates difficulties). The gap in talent level with centers is so great that if you do have a great big man, you will almost always have an advantage at that position.
Whereas, there are so many good wings that that advantage becomes less prevalent. Don’t get me wrong, you need a wing that is able to create his own shot and control the ball, but that can be had much more easier than a great center.
Look at the latest championship teams and there’s almost always a great big.
Gasol, Big Ticket, Shaq, Duncan.
These teams had great wings but needed bigs to put them over the top
You need a big, yes
But not an elite one.
You can get by with a big forward as your main big guy. You can win a title with Gasol and Bynum – you don’t need Dwight. You can win a title with a 34 year old Shaq – you don’t need him to be 28. You can win a title with Perkins, with Oberto, with Ben Wallace.
But I think you’ll struggle to win one without a great slasher. You need Manu, you need Kobe, you need Wade, you need Pierce, you need Rip Hamilton playing his brains out. Which is why, given the choice, I’d rather take that slasher and try to find the big men to surround him rather than take the big man and try to make do with Kirilenko or Iguodala.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm confused.
Gasol is an elite big man. Garnett, who you inexplicably left out, was an elite big man (he’s not anymore, unfortunately). It’s no coincidence that once Gasol joined the Lakers, the team went to the NBA Finals two years in a row. It’s no coincidence that once Garnett joined the Celtics, the team won a championship. Those two players were the catalysts for their teams. I can go on. You inexplicably leave out Duncan, who is an elite big man. Even Ben Wallace, despite his offensive ineptitude, was an elite defensive big man in the prime of his career. It doesn’t matter if you’re a power forward or a center, if you’re a big man, you’re a big man.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
But Dwight isn't a power forward
I left them out because I’m talking about centers, not generic big men, Howard’s a center. Neither Gasol, Garnett or Duncan have played there for the majority of their careers. And I say there’s more solid big men out there – we’ve named about 20 over the past couple of years – who can win a title, when paired with a great wing player, than there are great wing players.
Look at the small forward position – take out LeBron, ‘Melo and Durant and there’s nothing in the entire league in the way of genuine elite talent. SG isn’t much better – behind Wade, Kobe, Manu and perhaps Brandon Roy there’s bugger all in the way of elite talent.
We’ve seen you can win a title with Kendrick Perkins as your C, but I don’t think you can win a title with scrubs at both SG and SF. You need one of them to have an, if not elite, at least very, very good player – and there just aren’t that many of them around.
If you were building a team and you had your elite wing, sure, you’d need a pretty good big too. But they’re easier to find, IMO, than the other way round. I’d rather have Wade and Andrew Bogut than Howard and Iggy or Kirilenko.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 25, 2010 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
I'm still confused by your argument. *scratches head*
To be honest, I don’t even know what we’re talking about anymore. In my opinion, you need an elite big man to win an NBA title. Doesn’t matter if you’re a power forward or a center. You can’t win a championship with just an elite wing player, it just doesn’t happen unless you’re Michael Jordan. And even then, he had an elite defensive big man in Dennis Rodman. If I’m building a team, I want an elite big man, then the elite wing player. Not vice-versa. If you’re LeBron James, screw it, I’ll take my chances.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I'm not saying you can
But I think elite wings are, if not harder to come by (an elite player is always tough to find), harder to compensate for if you don’t have one. I don’t think you can win a title without an elite wing – or at least a non-elite wing playing like one temporarily – but I think you can get by with just below that level of ability in your bigs. If I had Wade or Durant, I’d be happy enough getting someone like Shaq or Camby to play with him, but with Duncan or Howard, I wouldn’t be happy with a guy like Jamal Crawford, or Iggy. I don’t think that would get it done.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 25, 2010 6:38 AM EST up reply actions
This must be a former Patrick Ewing
/Knicks fan. LEt it go man. Big men win championships, unless Michael Jordan is in the league. It’s not Patrick’s fault.
Duncan did it with Sean Elliot, Mario Elie, and Avery Johnson.
He also did it with a very non-elite at the time Manu, Tony Parker, and Stephen Jackson (well, he was never elite, but still). Hakeem certainly got by without elite wing players. /shrug
I hate Varejao.
I disagree with both of you.
CP3 deserves to be in the top five. Why? Because he’s a top five player in the NBA.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I disagree
LeBron, Durantula, Anthony, Wade and Dwight are all better.
Kobe’s better too, but he’s too old to buld a franchise around, so Paul would be fifth on my list. He’s got more injury problems than the others, too.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 4:15 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry
Paul would be sixth, can’t count.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 4:15 AM EST up reply actions
Can't agree, simply because the numbers don't back you up.
LeBron is better, Wade is on par with CP3, and Durant, Anthony, and Howard are a notch below him. And that’s a down year for CP3, considering his numbers were better last year (which is scary).
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I'm not interested in the stats, to be honest
Durant gets the nod because he’s younger and has otherworldly potential (and can be absolutely dominant on an awful team), and Howard because he plays in a far harder to fill (and more critical) position – look at the last time a PG-first team won an NBA title, other than the Billups led Pistons outfit in ‘04…you’re going back to the late 80s.
Melo’s the only one I’d consider the argument for. But he can fill it up consistently like Paul can’t and I’d argue his position – big athletic slashing wing – is more indicative of success in the NBA than Paul’s.
There’s more to basketball, and building a franchise, than statistics.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 4:34 AM EST up reply actions
I understand there's more than just numbers but still, they can't be ignored.
There’s only three players I would take over CP3 and that’s LeBron, Wade, and Dwight. Not coincidentally, looking at the numbers last year, those were four of the five best players in the NBA (Kobe was the fifth). This year, things have changed a bit with the emergence of Durant but my point remains. CP3, when he’s at his best, produces at a rate only matched/surpassed by LeBron and Wade (when he’s at his best). That’s it. I give Dwight the nod because he’s the best defensive player in the league, by the way. You talk about ’Melo’s style of play is indicative of success in the NBA. I disagree, somewhat. Yes, ’Melo plays a perimeter-style of basketball but Paul is the poster child for guards (wing players, too) that are thriving in this “hand-checking” era. That and CP3 is unequivocally better than ’Melo, in my opinion.
The numbers have shown that point guard is, indeed, the weakest position in the NBA but when you have a talent like CP3, he’s a excellent building block for any team.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I'll add an excerpt from Pro Basketball Prospectus 09-10
Last season, Chris Paul put together an MVP-caliber performance in relative obscurity, finishing a distant fifth in the voting. By the numbers, the gap between Paul and LeBron James was quite small, and he finished second in the league in WARP. Paul has certainly gotten plenty of attention for his performance, but people might not realize quite how unique his immediate NBA success has been. Only one player in the WARP era (1979-80 to the present) has statistically been more valuable over his first four seasons, or the course of a modern rookie contract: David Robinson, who was already 27 by his fourth NBA season because of the time he spent in the Navy.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Don't get me wrong
I would have taken CP3’s season last year in a heartbeat, but I suspect it was an outlier rather than the norm, much as Nelson’s early season form has proven to be. He’s dropped back a good 10-12% this season by advanced stats, whereas Durant’s improved 25% from last season.
Durant has the talent, in my opinion, to be just behind LeBron for about a decade. I don’t even think Howard’s going to be as good as he is, assuming both stay healthy, but Howard of course plays in a much harder to fill position. Durant’s an absolute beast.
Paul’s injury history is probably the thing that scares me more than anything – I have a phobia of athletic guards with knee problems.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 24, 2010 6:08 AM EST up reply actions
Injury issues aside, Paul is a player you can build a team around. Period.
His numbers and his impact on the court are indisputable.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I agree
It is close, but I would take CP3 4th behind LBJ,Wade, and D12. There is nothing CP3 can’t do. He does everything well. Durant’s passing isn’t there..
FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account
The detractors on DIME are saying he has no post moves and can't hit his free throws
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..wake me up when they actually watch a game.
by Stan in a Van (Down by the River) on Feb 23, 2010 4:46 PM EST reply actions
I like DIME
and Personally I build around Durantula.
Not really its just cool to type Durantula!
"This is not such a bad thing to be: a deep, talented underdog with Finals experience."~Ian Thomsen on the Orlando Magic.
psssshhht anyone could hit that shot if they were Vince Carter
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
what a (lucky) shot by VC. Dwight did it 2 times in a row to earn the world record.
Vince Carter - "Half Man, Half Retired"
Matt Barnes - "Half Man, Half Tattoo"
Dwight did it one time out of three tries
not two in a row.
No telling if VC did it first try or 20th.
Maybe you know Judo, maybe I know Smith and Wesson.
according to my sources, it was the first try from that distance... he was missing them from closer
The real "Masters of Panic" are commenting on this blog.
by ben_gleicher on Feb 23, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Luke Walton's diggin' it.
Life is a series of serious choices, theories are formed from experience, never mysterious forces. - stic.man
"I'm not impressed by your performance" - GSP
Not surprised.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Are you sure Vince's shot is not special effects?
Like in Kobe over the Aston Martin or LeBron hitting 5 consecutive shots from 80 feet? :D

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