Orlando Magic Trade Analysis: How Gilbert Arenas, Jason Richardson, Hedo Turkoglu and Earl Clark Impact the Magic
by Evan Dunlap on Dec 19, 2010 3:55 AM EST
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PrintIn two separate trades yesterday afternoon, the Orlando Magic acquired Gilbert Arenas, Earl Clark, Jason Richardson, and Hedo Turkoglu for four rotation players, thus dramatically altering their long-term outlook on the court and in the ledger. Plenty of angles deserve our attention here, and I'll attempt to cover a few in this post. I'm sure I'll get to other topics if the need arises, but for now, here's my assessment of the four newest Magic players, as well as the frontcourt and financial situations.
Gilbert Arenas
The biggest name Orlando acquired, Arenas' best days on the court are clearly behind him on account of age and left-knee injuries. In 21 games for the Washington Wizards this season, the new Arenas has averaged 17.3 points, 3.3 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 1.4 steals. That's solid production, but the real issue is his inefficiency, as he's connected on just 39.4 percent of his shot attempts and 32.4 percent of his three-pointers. Further, he's used 26.3 percent of Washington's possessions when on the court. At first blush, it may appear the three-time All-Star's high-volume offensive approach is a poor fit with the Magic, who prefer to spread the ball around.
And not to dismiss those concerns out of hand, but Arenas seems poised to join the Magic's second unit. Coach Stan Van Gundy said today Jameer Nelson will remain the team's starting point guard, and though Arenas himself said he and Van Gundy have yet to discuss his role with the team, he also said "I can do it here" with regard to coming off the bench.
And Orlando's bench sure could use the offensive punch. Prior to this deal, J.J. Redick was the second unit's only reliable scorer. Arenas going one-on-one, with Redick, Quentin Richardson, and Ryan Anderson spreading the floor around him, could yield solid results. Further, Arenas will take minutes from the unproductive backup point guard combination of Chris Duhon and Jason Williams, which one must view as a net positive for Orlando.
If shot-creation is the Magic's biggest offensive issue--and that's a defensible position, I believe--then Arenas certainly fixes it; no one's ever accused Arenas of lacking aggression. The issue is refining his ability to get shots off, eliminating the bad ones and maximizing the good ones. The fewer off-balance 20-footers he forces up, the better.
By all accounts, Arenas couldn't be happier to land in Orlando. Michael Lee of the Washington Post, for instance, says Arenas is "in great spirits" and "really wanted to be" with the Magic. Further, Orlando President of Basketball Operations Otis Smith said Arenas, a close friend of his, has been a Magic fan since Penny Hardaway's days with the club, and that Hardaway is Arenas' "favorite player." And indeed Arenas has selected uniform no. 1, which Hardaway made famous, with Orlando. In an interview with Holly MacKenzie, a good friend of mine and a great writer, two seasons ago, Arenas discussed his Hardaway fandom.
Smith declined to answer some questions about strategy, deferring instead to Van Gundy. But he did say the team addressed the possibility of playing Arenas and Nelson together in some alignments. He also cited Arenas' proficiency as a pick-and-roll operator as another plus. And, as he pointed out to the assembled media, "it is no secret to anyone in this room that the Orlando Magic likes to run pick-and-rolls."
Topic Index: Gilbert Arenas | Jason Richardson | Hedo Turkoglu | Earl Clark | Frontcourt Rotation | Backcourt Rotation | Finances
Jason Richardson
To me, the Magic's newest Richardson is the newcomer who has the best chance to make a difference with this team. Of the four players Orlando acquired today, Richardson ranks first this season in per-game scoring (19.3), rebounding (4.4), and True Shooting (57.4 percent). Though known primarily as a slam-dunk artist and corner three-point marksman, Richardson's more versatile than most folks credit him for. Smith said he anticipates Richardson's ability to score coming off screens to prove important in Orlando's offense: "His ability to hit spot-up threes as well as come off down screens for us in our system will probably be the best way to describe Jason." Smith also praised Richardson's comptitive spirit.
Scouting data from Synergy Sports Technology confirm Smith's assessment. Richadson is 46-of-100 (46 percent) in spot-up situations this season, including 32 three-point baskets; His 1.221 points per possession in such situations ranks in the league's 90th percentile. At 0.78 points per possession coming off screens, he's a bit more ordinary. However, that element of his game is something Orlando's lacked during Van Gundy's tenure; Orlando doesn't run many curl plays for its perimeter players except for Redick, preferring for them instead to spot-up off the catch or initiate offense via a pick-and-roll.
I'm also hopeful that Van Gundy will give Richardson, who's more powerful than his high-flyer reputation suggest, opportunities to score with his back to the basket. He's shooting 15-of-27 (55.6 percent) in post-up situations this season.
Richardson's three-point shooting makes him a natural fit here. He takes 5.9 triples per game and convert at a 41.2 percent clip; among the 13 players averaging at least five three-point attempts per night, only Kevin Martin, at 43.7 percent, is more accurrate.
Bottom line? Richardson's versatility as a scoring threat will give Orlando more options than it had with Vince Carter, whose minutes Richardson figures to absorb.
Hedo Turkoglu
Turkoglu, who played 425 regular- and post-season games in his first five season with Orlando, is no stranger to the Magic or Van Gundy's offense. He thrived as the Magic's secondary ballhandler in 2007/08 and 2008/09, with his fantastic play in the former season earning him that year's Most Improved Player award. He's disappointed in a major way in the one-plus season since leaving Orlando, but I attribute much of that decline to the way his new coaches have used him. Turkoglu's rebounding and playmaking stats took a dive with the Toronto Raptors and Phoenix Suns as both teams looked to use him more as a spot-up shooter. He excelled at that--he shot 37.4 percent on threes in Toronto and a career-best 42.3 percent with the Suns--but that's about it.
Van Gundy sounds hopeful that Turkoglu will regain some of his prior form in his return to Orlando. "I know that he is 6-foot-10 with skill and his skills have not eroded," Van Gundy said. "We know that he can shoot the ball, he can handle the ball, he can pass the ball, and I know he is capable of defending."
Turkoglu is at his best with the ball in his hands. He can run an offense, though his shot-selection and silly turnovers can aggravate coaches, fans, and teammates alike at times. But more frustrating, I think, is how Turkoglu plays when he isn't involved in the offense. Turkoglu isn't a guy who gets jacked up to do dirty-work things like set back-picks, or box opponents out. Like Mickael Pietrus, Turkoglu needs to be involved offensively if he is to make meaningful contributions in other areas. When he's engaged, he's an electrifying player--or as electrifying as a player with his minimal athleticism can be, anyway--who creates mismatches and finds open teammates. That high pick-and-roll with Dwight Howard he runs so well will become another of the Magic's go-to plays, I suspect.
What's less clear is Turkoglu's place in the rotation. Van Gundy said he does not plan to start Turkoglu at power forward, "at least not initially," though he granted Turkoglu may man that position "against smaller lineups." He likely won't crack the 30-minute mark on most nights, but as a 25-minutes-per-night starter at small forward, he makes sense. Quentin Richardson can back him up. I can't envision Turkoglu sharing the court with Arenas very much, given that they both need the ball in order to maximize their gifts.
Earl Clark
With a lanky 6-foot-10, 225-pound frame, the 22-year-old Clark has drawn comparisons to Lamar Odom, and not just because both are left-handed. Clark hasn't impressed in his two seasons in the league to date, and the Suns even took the unusua step of declining the fourth-year option on his rookie contract, meaning Clark comes off the books next summer.
In three seasons as a Louisville Cardinal, Clark averaged 10.6 points, 7 rebounds, and 1.7 assists. Now in his second year, Clark's career averages at the professional level are 2.8 points and 1.3 rebounds in 7.6 minutes. Van Gundy said "we have always liked his talent" though the team doesn't "know too much about him."
Clark had the best game of his career against the Magic earlier this season when he dropped 12 points and 6 boards in 15 garbage-time minutes. His totals in 8 games against other opponents? 14 points, 11 rebounds, and 57 minutes. Like rookie center Daniel Orton, Clark is a long-term prospect for this team who doesn't fit into its immediate plans. It's up to Orlando to harness his potential on the practice court, or perhaps in the NBA D-League, so he may contribute down the line.
The Frontcourt Rotation
Losing Marcin Gortat will complicate issues for Van Gundy when Howard is in foul trouble. "It will be more of a struggle" in those situations, he conceded. With Gortat moving on, Orlando has no true second center behind Howard. Brandon Bass, who will likely retain his starting power forward job, will need to slide to that position on a nightly basis now. Though undersized, at 6-foot-8, Bass is up to the task. He played center alongside power forward Dirk Nowitzki in two seasons with Dallas, and earlier this season, he told me defending centers is easier than defending power forwards:
"Playing the five, you just do a lot of zone. At the four, you gotta do a lot of moving. It's a lot of work."
Rashard Lewis' departure to Washington also opens up minutes for Ryan Anderson at power forward. The three-year veteran hasn't played meaningfully since Van Gundy abruptly yanked him from a November 10th game against the Utah Jazz, which Anderson started. A subsequent bout with the stomach flu, coupled with a sprained right mid-foot, has set Anderson back a bit. But now, really he has a great opportunity to become a rotation player on a contending team. As it stands, Howard and Bass are the only natural bigs in Orlando's rotation, with veteran insurance policy Malik Allen grabbing spot minutes if needed.
Orlando can at least be pleased it has two young, productive, talented power forwards in Anderson and Bass. How greatly Anderson's role increases as a result of these trades isn't clear, but here's what is: Orlando needs him to prove he belongs on the court, as it simply doesn't have other viable options.
Smith seems to agree. "We still need to get a big, so there will stil probably be some other changes made," he said. A smaller deal for a cheap big man, or perhaps a free-agent signing, could address this issue.
The Backcourt Rotation
Orlando won't easily fill the void Gortat's departure creates, but it can at least address ith simply by acquiring another player. Nelson and Redick, however, are two incumbent players whose roles figure to change dramatically. Though Nelson will still start at point guard, Van Gundy estimates he and Arenas, another small, ball-dominant guard, will share the court for approximately 16 minutes per game: "I'm not going to have those guys, as good as they are, just splitting 48 minutes." In response, Van Gundy said Nelson will have to play off the ball more to accommodate Arenas. "Jameer has wanted the opportunity in the laast couple of years to be able to come off screens a little bit more," he said, noting that doing so would put Nelson in position to get offense where "he doesn't have to have it off the dribble all the time."
This talk makes sense in theory, but implementing it in practice will prove quite a chore. Almost one-third of the season is in the books, and now Van Gundy is tasked with adjusting the way his point guard, a seven-year veteran overall with three-plus seasons under him directly, plays. On the fly. While integrating four new players. In a high-pressure situation, with expectations high. You see what I'm driving at here.
Nelson realizes he will have fewer scoring chances as a result of today's roster overhaul, but is committed to staying assertive, saying, "I'm still going to find a way to be aggressive" even when he doesn't have the ball.
Redick, for his part, is averaging 24.3 minutes per game this year. He may see that number drop in half. Both Richardsons, Turkoglu, and Arenas merit playing time at the wing, so Redick will feel the crunch. So too will Quentin Richardson, but his status as the Magic's best perimeter defender ought to keep him on the floor most nights.
Redick, though, isn't sweating the possible change. "I think I've been good, in all five of my years here, about playing my role. So whatever that is, I'll do it the best that I can," he said.
Finances
I began working on a post examining the financial implications for Orlando during its loss to the Philadelphia 76ers tonight, but SB Nation colleague Tom Ziller beat me to it, so to speak. You can find his exhaustive breakdown on hat front here. The Magic's long-term obligation to Arenas is remarkable, really. It's nearly unheard of for a small-market team to take on all this salary. However, Orlando saves money in the short term, which is an important point.
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nice article
im really excited about richardson now..after looking at his numbers hes definitely an upgrade over vince..and he seems like he plays with more passion (not hard to do i suppose compared to VC)
I’m getting a little more excited about having Hedo back too…when Kobe Bryant says that was a smart move getting Hedo back, that has to mean something right??
I hope we can find a way to trade Duhon for a backup C too
Nobody's taking that overpaid pile of crap for a decent C
by Ol' Uncle Munnerlyn on Dec 19, 2010 4:27 AM EST up reply actions
lol
yea probly not…i just dont kno who else we can trade…i dont really wanna give up redick… maybe if someone has a thing for Orton? and we can ship Duhon wit him ahahah
The best we can wish for is a major injury to a teams starting PG
Its painfully clear that Duhon was a horrible signing
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
HAHAHAHAH
Poohon thats great! funny stuff
No, but you might be able to package him.
If Orlando wants to “win now” and is willing to give up one of it’s project players…you could package Duhon, Allen, and either Clark or Orton for a backup that would basically just taking the place of Allen.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Dec 19, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
I look at it this way… the magic are in desperate need of a perimeter scorer/play-maker… there just happens to be a player that fits that exact mold, and he makes a stupid decision and falls out of favor with 29 GMs. Just so happens this player is great friends with our own GM.. AND has a contract so similar to Lewis, it could be a straight up trade. definite upgrade in talent… at worst, 2nd string pg much improved over Duhon, + getting rid of Lewis’s contract. brilliant.
Then, we get Hedo back who is an upgrade over Lewis or Qrich at SF, knows the system, is 6-10 and another play-maker, so no complaint there…WITH the added bonus of Jrich, who I believe is tailor made for this offense and should flourish. I would take:
nelson/arenas
JRich/JJ
Hedo/QrRich
Bass/Anderson
Howard/got me on that one. veteran big? we got no one worth mentioning backing up howard, obviously the largest problem, but any veteran big on a min. should be acceptable compared to the upgrades at other positions.
over
nelson/duhon/jwill
vc/jj
qrich/pietrus
lewis/bass/anderson
howard/gortat
any day of the week. call me crazy. defense is more of a system and philosophy than individuals. as long as we get someone halfway decent to backup Howard, this team’s far superior offense potential far outweighs its potential drop in defense (which I think could actually improve will newly acquired ATHLETIC player(s), despite the lose of pietrus, which is only a defensive lose.
yessir
i agree wit this post 100%..our offense is gonan be SO nasty…especially with Arenas coming up with the 2nd unit, our offense should score 100+ a game easily
we do have to find a decent backup C..im hoping its either Foster, Prizbilla, or Birdman
Completly agree
I’m excited to see the new team play together but do think it will take time for them to gel
Blue and White Ignite..... BOOM!
We upgrade defensively at the SG but Turkoglu is really gonna have to show some "want to" at SF
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Ha
Even Jason Richardson doesn’t believe that.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 19, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
Were you not watching Vince play defense this year?
He was horrible this year, that may be due to his injury or the illness but regardless he was BAD
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 20, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
I was
And I saw opposing SGs score 102 points per 100 possessions against, making him the equal third most efficient defender on the Magic with reasonable minutes.
Were you not watching Vince play defense this year? We’ve been shredded by ones and threes and fours, not generally twos.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
I dont care what your stats say
Vince was getting blown by all year. I WATCHED it happen
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 20, 2010 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
You weren't watching reality.
Vince stayed in front of his man most of the time this year, and he actually had active hands and got a lot of deflections for a team that doesn’t force a lot of TO’s.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I was very excited about this team until the finances part
Hopefully Orlando sheds one of them before the financial too is too great.
by Ol' Uncle Munnerlyn on Dec 19, 2010 4:28 AM EST reply actions
Hedo contract looks like it could be broken up among 2 players pretty easy by only being 12 million
meh… I didnt convince myself
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
There's way more talent on offense now, but I still don't like the Arenas deal.
People are saying Orlando gets better at PF by clearing out Lewis. But why not just bench him for a stretch? Why all of a sudden lock the roster up, worse than it was, with Dwight’s extension lingering? At least wait to see if Arenas can make it to the all-star break. The deal wasn’t going anywhere. I haven’t seen anything recently about his injury outlook but am wondering a lot about the specifics. I’m also wondering how likely a hard cap is next year, and how it would work with a roster that is already saddled with 80 million for only a few players, most of whom will be garbage.
this is the same as us wanting richardson and they wanted Gortat
in order for it to happen we had to take hedo and they had to take vince, just so happens hedo may flourish here and become a great player again. WE will be making another move to back up DH so be patient. Arenas is a clear up grade over Shard and will do what we wanted vince to do for so long. Arenas will actually do it EVERY game instead of every 10. Vc was one my fav players along with shard but this move will only make us stronger, Hedo, Richardson and Arenas all can create shots by themselves and this is what we were missing. WE go from having one creator (Nelson) to having four.
by Vanek on Dec 19, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree the trade makes Orlando better this season, just by virtue of getting Jrich over VC and losing Lewis.
If they had to take back Hedo, fine … I think he can be an upgrade also this season. But what’s the urgency for Arenas? How are you so confident Arenas will do it every night, oh wait, sorry …. EVERY night?
That's my question.
No one else was gunning for Arenas, so there was no reason to do it right then. We could actually use the frontcourt depth right now (Bass could’ve been the back-up 5 still), and we could’ve seen if Hedo playing with Rashard would re-energize him a bit. The 3-4 PnR would’ve helped Lewis, I think. At the very least, it would’ve been worth it to see if it would.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
we needed a guy who can create his own shot
which is why we got Gilbert
Any idea what exactly Arenas' story is with his knees?
I know there were several meniscus issues and surgeries … what else? Were they still having to monitor it closely in Washington to keep him on the court? I’m not finding much.
Well, his first real test was supposed to be last year, but of course he got in trouble.
He also is susceptible to faking injuries to sit out games too. So who knows?
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Oh, that simple. Glad you broke it down for me so well.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
At this point the Arenas trade is fine. We needed a wing player that can get his own shot and still create for others
We needed better play out of our backup PG’s. We accomplished that all the while obtaining PT for Anderson and Bass
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
$80m+
Is a lot of coin for a backup PG…
by eltharion_doa on Dec 19, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
Stan anticipated 32 mins per game for Gil and Jameer.
by Evan Dunlap on Dec 20, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Sounds about right
I just dont want to see Duhon on the court
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 20, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
The one good thing about the trades
Is that Duhon, barring injury to Nelson or Arenas, is probably done as a serious minutes Magic player in the short term.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
Good lord, I'm so nervous about injuries with Arenas and that was when I was thinking 20-25 min. as an off the bench spark plug.
He starts seeing 35 minutes for stretches, I’m doubting (just on a hunch) that he can do it through the rest of the season and playoffs.
Oh, yeah, and then there’s 2013…when his contract will turn me into a Seattle Kings fan. Did I say I hated the Wash. trade?
How many minutes are J-Rich and Redick supposed to play?
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I imagine J-Rich will start at SG
Maybe play a little time at SF backing up Hedo or if he plays some PF against smaller lineups.
Q-Rich will probably keep getting PT because of his D, I’m afraid JJ’s going to be the odd guy out.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
hes not a backup pg
hes a 6th man gunner like Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford, and Manu (back when he was a 6th man)
Everyone's just waiting for Otis' last move, which won't be as big as Saturday's trade
but will send one of our backcourt players for a big. But who? No one wants Duhon with his stock so low. Maybe Fran Vasquez? LOL
Anyway great post Evan. I’m looking forward to J-Rich. The team got younger, but also improved its explosiveness.
i wish
we’d probly have to trade JJ…or Orton if they want him…Duhon + Orton for Camby would make my day
Portland is not going to trade its only legitimate, healthy Center.
I'm a dude!
Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPlLyVuMf7U
Hedo?
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
They wanted him before but Toronto signed him
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Why would we?
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 20, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
Great write up Evan
I bet it’s been an exhausting 24+ hours since you first break the story about serious negotiations with Washington last night. Get some rest. Thanks for covering the Magic!
by 808duck on Dec 19, 2010 4:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
*tries to think of something positive to say*
This is really thorough, and I agree that Holly MacKenzie is great.
Ummm…
Cool.
Mostly the complete lack of talent
More specifically, the complete lack of defense. Defense wins championships and we’re down to, erm, Howard. Say what you like about Carter and Lewis, they knew their roles and they knew how to stay in front of players. None of Arenas, Richardson or Turk have ever given a fig about defense.
Turk had one good season and got paid twice what he’s worth because of it. Arenas hasn’t played well since he hurt himself, and looks a shadow of his former self. Richardson’s an expiring contract who’s played no defense his whole career, and is coming off having his offense boosted by the Steve Nash effect.
And for all that, we’ve got the privilege of committing $120m to Hedo and Arenas over four years.
So that’s what I’m worried about. Paying vastly too much for vastly too little talent.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 19, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it seems like we're becoming the GSW of the East.
Except if Dwight leaves, our Center (Orton) won’t be able to keep up with the rest of the team.
I'm a dude!
Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPlLyVuMf7U
by GameManager on Dec 19, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
We weren't playing good defense with the unit we had
-FLORIDA STATE SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Blood, Sugar, Sex, ORLANDO Magic on Dec 19, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
We had a bad stretch of like 4 games.
We still had a def. efficiency under 100 even with a couple really bad games recently. This is going to make our defense worse, no questions.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
how much worse can we be?
we still have Q whose a good defender…Pietrus didnt even play every game for us.. Richardson should buy into SVG’s defensive philosophies and be at least as good as VC was as a defender…the only defense we lost was the 10-15 mins we got from Gortat, and he wasn’t even that impressive defensively..Blake Griffen tore him apart last week
Blake Griffin tears apart everyone.
Pietrus was one of two players that we could use to guard guys like LeBron or Wade or Kobe.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
On what basis do you assume Richardson will play D?
Unlike Carter, he’s not at the end of his career, he knows he’s a free agent this summer, he knows teams like gaudy offense stats for giving oh fat contracts and most teams don’t pay attention to defense.
Richardson’s best interests are served by him staying a gunner, not by him wasting energy chasing guys around screens.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
i mean
we signed him for 4 years i think..i dont think hes gonna care about those offensive stats until his last year..and i dont think hes that kind of player, he knows hes a role player, and he took a reasonable contract to play for a contender
I thought we got Q cause he was supposed to bring the same defensive intesnity as Barnes did, with more offensive skills..since hes been in and out of the rotation lately, i guess ill have to judge his D come Monday
eltharion_doa is talking about J Richardson, not Q.
Q’s defense is ok. J’s is not.
Haters gonna hate.
by MoveThoseChains on Dec 20, 2010 3:08 AM EST up reply actions
Correct
And Jason, not Q, will be the starting (and high minute) wing.
Of our available wings (J-Rich, Q-Rich, Turk, Arenas, Redick) only one can legitimately guard an opposing player, and Q-Rich will be getting at best second unit and mop up minutes – at worst, he’ll be buried at the end of the rotation.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
Assuming what you're saying is true about us not playing very good defense recently, why replace guys with players who have even poorer defensive reputations?
We over-adjusted. Now we have too much offense and not enough defense. There has to be another move coming.
by Hoop Dreams on Dec 20, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
they knew their roles and they knew how to stay in front of players.
That is simply not true. Lewis cannot play SF and VC was too old to defend SG’s. I doubt Hedo will do anything defensively because that’s who he is but at tleast J-Rich has the athleticism to be good defensively
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
atleast Hedo has the size to bother shots.
can’t teach 6-10
I'm not talking about Lewis at the three
That was a desperation move by van Gundy. Lewis was still guarding non-physical 4s fine, and Bass was used against the bangers.
Very few SGs were going off against Orlando. Carter’s defensive efficiency was right in line with the rest of the team.
Before we had three guys on the wings who would play competant defense – Pietrus, Q-Rich and Carter in order of effectiveness. Now we have one, and JJ who’ll chase guys around screens but can’t do much else. Richardson’s never shown an inclination to play D, and Arenas hasn’t stopped a PG for three years, let alone a 2.
Unless van Gundy works a genuine miracle – contact the Pope – there is no way this team’s wing defense doesn’t fall through the floor.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
arenas
is gonna be guarding 2nd string pgs most of the time because hes coming off the bench
He's going to be splitting time at both guard spots
He’s not going to be able to hide away and only get 16 minutes a game.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions
ask dwight if our guards can stay in front of their guys.
he was just complaining about that a week ago.
Don't you realize...
Now that they no longer play for the Magic the truth comes out that VC and Rashard were key to the team’s highly ranked defense the last few years. It must be hopeless now, I guess.
I hope the Magic got some name tags in one of these trades
No
Courtney Lee and Pietrus were.
So that’s worked out well.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Yet another reason
Dwight shouldn’t be the one making trades. If his problem is wing defense, trading for three guys who couldn’t guard a moderately athletic shrubbery isn’t the way to fix things.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
The problem was shot creators, wing defense, and capable passers...in that order.
We fixed two of the three problems, but we went waaaay overboard to do it.
This team will be great fun, but our identity just took a 180, which is really worrisome. If this was a move made to make us championship contenders this year, that puts an awful lot of pressure on Stan to figure this all out before the playoffs—and there’s still a very strong possibility that there’s at least one other move on the way to bring in another big.
I can’t imagine Stan is very happy about all this.
by Hoop Dreams on Dec 20, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
He sure didn't seem happy after the Philly game.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Optimistic
Yesterday’s trade has reminded me of a time that has occurred over a decade ago. I am a Magic fan but reside in the NYC area. I tend to read the post here but comment very little. The feedback I sense from the community is Anti-Arenas. Not that I am Arenas biggest fan but I do think he is the same position Latrell Sprewell was about 10 years ago. After the PJ Carlesimo fiasco nobody in the NBA wanted anything to do with Sprewell. His stock at the time was probably worst than that of Arenas (after the gun accident) The Knicks took a chance on Sprewell and reached the NBA Finals as an 8th seed.
In no way do I view Sprewell & Arenas as identical players. One played above the rim and the other beneath. But I do see two individuals who played their best basketball when doubted and faced with adversity. The Golden State Warriors drafted him with the second pick in the second round (31st overall). This fueled the beginning of his career and molded him into the player that most remember as Agent Zero. The mentality of that player will emerge especially when he knows he has the genuine support of Otis Smith. This Magic team has far more talent than the Knicks team of 98-99. Orlando has enough talent to thrive off of the energy and aggression Arenas will bring. We are not asking him to be the Arenas of old and dominate the ball. He is put in ideal position to lead a second unit in scoring and will have a defender on him who will struggle containing him defensively at most times.
There is no reason why he can’t produce for our second unit the way Crawford, Terry and Manu does. The skill set is there definitely. My concern is will SVG let the player assert himself and be the force he could be. When Sprewell was given the chance with NYK the results were golden. I sense a similar situation with Arenas.
Richardson's best scoring games this season
J-Rich has scored 35+ points in a game this season three times so far, with games of 39 points, 38 points, and 35 points.
Arenas has scored 30+ points in a game twice this season, with games of 31 points (ironically against the Magic) and 30 points. He was at his efficient best in the 30 point game against the Bulls, as he was 11 of 22 from the field, including 7 of 10 from three point range.
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Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Dec 19, 2010 5:27 AM EST reply actions
Stat is reunited with Mike D'Antoni and is an excellent PnR player.
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Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
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It's definitely not the system.
Amare can post up with a bunch of moves, but he can also hit spot up shots.
Watch the games.
and he doesn't have to worry about playing defense.
-FLORIDA STATE SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Blood, Sugar, Sex, ORLANDO Magic on Dec 19, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
I've watched Richardson play for years, and he's been a quality player everywhere he's played.
He’s an upgrade over Vince, except he’s not much of a passer.
by Hoop Dreams on Dec 20, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Nice work E.D. I stiill don't know exactly what to think.
The month of January has a schedule that might benefit the team coming together with a lot of home games and a mix of easy and solid teams along the way. I also feel a kind of a weird vibe between Otis and Stan, as other people mentioned here, but I hope it’s just us fans being paranoid. I hope the team will run a little more to benefit J-Rich’s exploiding ways (and even his post-ups as E.D. mentioned) and that Hedo will have a “prove my self” mentality and actualy play. Arenas, I"m on “wait and see” mode. Q-Rich was also very excited to come to Orlando after being on a crapy team but It wasn’t like he shined right away or anything. This are weird/exciting times and the team needs to prove they can face the changes and renew their energy and we should give them the time needed to do so. It’s funny, I made a post even before the start of the season that this will be a year of adjustments and we should not care about the regular season record but I didn’t expect this much. Anything can happen in the playoffs.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
I could actually see Gilbert Arenas thriving in a bench role.
Contract, knee injuries, and personal issues aside, he seems like someone who would fit into a bench role where he can create instant offense for himself and others. It’ll also save his knees some wear and tear by shortening his minutes. Plus, he won’t have to worry about playing most of his minutes against starting 1’s and 2’s where his defense would be very suspect.
I wasn’t a fan of these trades but I can warm up to them. My main beef was that we lost a lot of frontcourt depth and now we don’t have a decent backup Center.
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Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
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On Arenas' best day.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Not much to say I'm in wait and see mode
But I want to give you credit Evan, you called it and the net was ablaze with rebukes from too many sites to count including Otis and the Wizard brass.
You called it first
One more thing
Otis said all of the players traded took the news very hard upon learning of being traded. SB Arizona says both Carter and Gortat was enthusiastic. Carter was described as wildly enthusiastic.
JA Adande said VanGundy didn’t want Arenas but other sites said he was on board.
So who do we believe?
everyone is "enthusiastic"
Maybe Vince is excited he’ll get to taste the Phoenix fountain of youth. I suppose it doesn’t work for everyone (Hedo) but I think I’m right in saying this will be the first time VC is playing in the Western Conference
I don't think he likes at all the fact that he's going away from home
And in the West it’s more of a physical play in my opinion. A chance to play with Nash in a offensive oriented system should be a great thing to see with VC.
And now you can become a Suns fan.
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Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
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Absolutely
I’ll still watch Magic games because it will be interesting.
Not sure if I’m going to root against the Magic or not. I have an issue with Dwight though, but whatever.
Yeah...
please come back every now and then. We’ll miss your insight.
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Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
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Oh yeah absolutely, this blog needs me like air to a fish
Um… not sure that came out right…
Excellent breakdown, Evan
I’m extremely eager to see how this all plays out… and extremely happy I’ll be at Thursday’s game.
I have renewed hope
I don’t know of we can win a title. But we sure as Hell weren’t gonna win one before. I agree about Turk. He is not just spot up shooter. One of the things I love: fast breaks. We should run the bejesus out of the ball. Jason Richardson is an absolute beast and worked Kobe last year in the WCF. At least now Wade and Bron and All and Pierce have to actually guard people. Is this trade risky? Bet your bottom dollar. But just look how it will break down. Gilbert Arenas on our second unit will play with better players than Washington’s first unit. So if these guys want to win a title it’s gonna be a sacrifice for everyone including the MVP himself Dwight. I think Duhon or Williams plus the 2013 first round pick could net us Randolph since the Knicks hate him. All we need is a body to backup Dwight. Plus Randolph is young and athletic. I am actually excited for the rest of this season now.
Why would the knicks want Duhon back?
or even Williams for that matter?
Thanks Evan,
this post absolutely makes me feel a little better.
The only real concern I have is how the front-court plays without Dwight on the floor.
I know ‘Meer can play without the ball, one can argue that he excells without it. He’s almost like a great scoring 2 guard in a lil man’s body. Hobbit Dominique.
…lol
Frontcourt depth is my biggest concern too.
I think the perimeter positions are more solidified but if Bass starts at the 4, who backs up Dwight? If Bass is Dwight’s primary backup at Center, does Ryno start at the 4 and does Earl Clark back him up? I want no part of Turk playing PF. My guess is that Otis isn’t done yet and he’ll either try to move Duhon and/or Q-Rich for a decent backup Center. I rather we don’t move Q-Rich because I think he’s solid depth at the 3 but you have to give up something to get something.
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qw knwq qw had to get rid of gortat to compete, lets face it he is gone , we need to just get someone on the chaep
if not possible trade J-will and Orton if we have to, but gortat was horrible as a back up this year, and the only reason we ever matched to use him as a trade piece. So yes, Gortat was great, we may not get someone as good , but i fell we can get someone good enough to play backup behinf the “Big Man”
Why would we have to get rid of Gortat to compete???
He was not horrible. He was still the best backup center in the league.
J-Rich looks to be very popular in Orlando.
I’m also a Suns fan, and he’s been huge there. Lots of fun to watch, great energy, he can dunk, shoot, and create…and if he plays the SG position he can muscle opposing players with ease on most nights. If he continues to play as well as he has this year for the Suns, then I suspect he’ll been seen as a genius move.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Dec 19, 2010 9:22 AM EST reply actions
Whatever they say now....
don’t count on Nelson starting down the road and if roles are reversed it may prove to be a very good thing.
Otis – I like these moves a lot.
I think the big thing is we made a move
That team was not going to win a championship. Carter and Lewis were just stagnant out there. I’m not saying this team will do better and im not saying it wont but it says alot about this franchise that they are willing to shake things up for the fans and Dwight.
If it doesn't work, though
Dwight’s going to look at Turk and Arenas and their salaries and think there’s no way he can win a title in Orlando with them there. At least with Lewis and Carter we could have dangled the idea of FA signings and cap space to entice him to stay.
I can definitely envisage a scenario where people are shredding Smith and Orlando for these deals because Dwight left, in the same way everyone shredded Cleveland when James left after the sold the farm for Jamison, Williams and friends.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 19, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
The trade that sent Jamison to Cleveland was criminal.
Washington bought out Z and he re-signed with the Cavs. They gave up literally nothing in that trade.
And Cleveland didn’t really lose much in the Mo Williams trade. Joe Smith was always mediocre and Damon Jones was nothing more than a 3-pt sharp shooter which was replaced by Williams who’s younger and is a better distributor which really isn’t his game.
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by GameManager on Dec 19, 2010 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Ben Wallace
Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West and Shaq all fall under the moniker “friends”.
Cavs traded for a lot of pieces in the James era, none of them worked, the Cavs didn’t win a title, James left, management got blamed. I can see that happening in Orlando, and I can see these deals – along with Lewis getting that crappy contract to start with – as being pinpointed as the reasons Orlando didn’t win a title and lost Dwight, should that happen.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 19, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, management will get the most heat if these moves don't work out.
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by GameManager on Dec 19, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Speaking of which. . .
With Perkins back, the Celtics have an O’Neal to spare now, right? Hmmm. . .
I am the world's best basketball player! *
* Among those with no skills whatsoever
I would love to have someone like Shaq backing up D12...
But I don’t think Shaq’s ego, and his little spat a year ago with Dwight over the Superman nickname, and calling out Stan aka “master of panic” (in his words) will have him coming back to O-town anytime soon..unfortunately
Fat Shaq
Still played pretty well for them, PnR defense aside.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
That seems a little dramatic.
Lets all take a deep breath, enjoy the holidays, and use the all star break as a measuring stick for this team. Sound good?
-FLORIDA STATE SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Blood, Sugar, Sex, ORLANDO Magic on Dec 19, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Why do that when no one was willing to afford a team that started 15-4 the same evaluation period?
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Not to mention....
Cleveland and Toronto agreed to a S&T that would’ve sent Bosh to Cleveland but Bosh didn’t sign off on it because he didn’t want to play with the Cavs. It’s not like they couldn’t have gotten a good compliment to LeBron.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5357607
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by GameManager on Dec 19, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Aren't you contradicting yourself?
They couldn’t have gotten a good compliment to James, because by the time the Raptors were willing to trade them Bosh, neither Bosh nor James had any interest in playing in Cleveland.
Finally getting in place a deal for a #2 after James was out the door was pointless for Cleveland. They made moves before then – they were just bad ones. I hope I’m not saying the same thing about these deals in two years.
“Man, if Otis had just been more patient, he could have got Chris Paul/Carmelo Anthony (delete as appropriate) instead of those bums Arenas and Turkoglu. No wonder Dwight didn’t want to stay!”
by eltharion_doa on Dec 19, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
They couldn’t have gotten a good compliment to James, because by the time the Raptors were willing to trade them Bosh, neither Bosh nor James had any interest in playing in Cleveland.
You’re correct in that sense. It seems like Wade/James/Bosh had it planned for years that they wanted to play together.
"Man, if Otis had just been more patient, he could have got Chris Paul/Carmelo Anthony (delete as appropriate) instead of those bums Arenas and Turkoglu. No wonder Dwight didn’t want to stay!"I hope I’m not saying that either. Otis IMO has completely lost it.
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by GameManager on Dec 19, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
We were never gonna get those guys
Once you accept it you will be fine. This is what we could do. Jason Richardson is a beast. Scored 50 twice or three times in a week long before he played with Steve Nash. Don’t be surprised if signs a contract here in the offseason. The thing I like the most is the fact we are team with a chip on our shoulders again. Whenever we are expected to win I don’t like it. We have a bunch gamers. Jason Richardson is basically Courtney Lee HD. Seriously. Turk will be fine. Gilbert will be coming off the bench. If you don’t think that makes our team better you are out of your mind. We just need to get one more big. I like me some Anthony Randolph.
Don't necessarily disagree.
Earlier in this thread, I said that I think Gilbert Arenas could thrive as an instant-offense-off-the-bench player and the more minutes Duhon loses, the happier I am. Gil comes with baggage and a terrible contract though which could hurt our financial flexibility when Dwight’s contract expires. I do believe Otis had some counseling sessions with Gil last offseason following Gun-gate so I suppose if Otis didn’t think Gil could move past his troubles, he probably wouldn’t be here.
I think J-Rich will thrive here and fit in nicely with the system. I see him as an upgrade over Vince since he’s a superior scorer at this point and is a few years younger but his defense is lacking. He’s the acquisition I’m most excited about.
As for Turk, I hope Stan can help him rekindle his “magic” here but I won’t get my hopes up. Turk is older, has lost a step, and he was known for being very lazy even before his new deal which has most likely made him even lazier.
Earl Clark (the throw-in) has some potential which wasn’t tapped in Phoenix. Maybe a change of scenery and a system where he could be the ideal “stretch 4” could him some good but most likely, he’ll never pan out.
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Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
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by GameManager on Dec 19, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Trouble is
Otis and Gil have a mentoring relationship. I don’t think Smith is looking at Arenas with a clear head. He’s remembering the good times, and pretending the injuries and the contract and the craziness aren’t there.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
We could've gotten someone like Iguodala. We definitely had the assets.
Or, if Otis was so desperate to make a move, he certainly could’ve tried to involve a third team with younger assets that Denver might have wanted to get Melo. CP3’s window of coming here was open during the summer, but shut when the NBA took over, it seems.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Jason Richardson
Is basically a tall Steve Francis.
Courtney Lee played defense. Courtney Lee played really tough defense, although his inexperience let him down when he was here. Jason Richardson has never met a defensive rotation he didn’t want to whiff on.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Agree on the defense, but Richardson is not anything like Steve Francis.
by Hoop Dreams on Dec 20, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I only mean in the context of defense
With the comparison to Francis, to clarify.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I'm optimistic.
I love J-Rich’s game, and perhaps Hedo will thrive again with SVG system. With Arenas, a change of scenery is usually good for most people, and this may be what he needs to get back to “Agent Zero”-level. These moves still don’t really improve our defense, though.
I don't think Gil will ever return to his "Agent Zero" form.
He’ll probably come off the bench where he could do well and save some wear and tear on those knees.
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by GameManager on Dec 19, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
How about "Agent Zero" form...against opposing reserve players, for 15-20 minutes a night?
In reality, that’s all the Magic need him to do. He could do more, but that’s what they “need” from him.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Dec 19, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'll take that!
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Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
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That would be fine
A massive waste of money, but fine from a basketball perspective.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
2 words....
Anderson….Varajeio ( I think thats how you spell it)
Anderson’s contract is around 7 mil so is JJ Redick’s…JJ seems to be the odd man out (we just signed 2 SGs)..so he’s really the only valuable trade piece we have left..I think it’ll be a great trade for both teams..
JJ is a vast improvement over Boobie Gibson if you ask me..
and I don’t think Otis matched the offer sheet over the summer knowing that he was gonna land Gilbert and Jason during the season..but now that he has..JJ is expendable..
Gilbert is not naturally as 2, but that fact of the matter is, is that he will spend A LOT of time at that position…which will take a great amount of PT from JJ
I doubt JJ would accept a trade to Cleveland
He can veto any deal up until a year after he signed the offer sheet.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
In Cleveland he'll step into a starting role...
you think he would veto that opportunity?? One in which he will NEVER get in O-town (barring injuries) given the trades that have gone down in the past couple days???
I think so, yes
If he just wanted to start, he could have got more money than the deal he accepted from Chicago in the summer.
He wants to play, but he wants to win too. He’s not going to have any chance of winning in Cleveland.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm..Idk...
I guess we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree : )
Really Evan??
So you mean to tell me..that if you were a ball player, and wanted to make a name for yourself in the league, having the opportunity to have some legitimate playing time..you would turn that down to be a bench warmer on a team that has a “good chance” at winning it all?
I agree with you when you say winning matters...
and I’m sure it matters to JJ…but I think he’s too much of a competitor to be sufficed sitting on the bench for the rest of the year…and the foreseeable future..
I think he knows
That someone better will come along for him sooner or later if the Magic decide to shop him.
Title contenders always need shooters.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, JJ wouldn't go to Cleveland.
It’s amazing what fans can convince themselves of to assist in their dream composition of a team.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
I respect your opinion..but disagree...
JJ’s what, 26 or 27 years old? He’s under contract with the Magic for another 3 years..I think, so that puts him at the age of 29 or 30 before he becomes an unrestricted free agent again. If I had to take a wild guess..I would have to think that if a team says “Hey JJ, we want you to come in a start for our team night in and night out while you’re still in your prime”, that he wouldn’t say “No thank you, I’d rather sit on the bench and hope our team has enough to make a run for a championship..” makes no sense. And I’m pretty sure Otis’ phone isn’t ringing off the hook from “title contenders” who want JJ to come in and start for them…just saying..he has to take his opportunities when they come knocking..
I mean really..
since when do players, put in years upon years of blood, sweat, and tears in the gym to just sit on the bench come gametime?? At some point..players want to play..and as talented as JJ is..he should be..
yea i agree
if jj really wanted to stay in orlando, he wouldnt of signed that offer sheet to the bulls…i was suprised, yet happy, that we matched it..our ownershp is amazing right now
What?
Orlando didn’t even offer him a contract. They let the Bulls set the market, and then matched it.
What was JJ supposed to do? Beg Otis Smith for a minimum salary deal?
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
Two years
His final year is not guaranteed.
JJ is not a player who has ever cared about individual stats. Why would he start now? He wants to play, and he wants to win. If he gets a role where he can do both, I’m sure he’ll take it but failing that, I expect to see him stay here. Especially given if the Magic don’t re-sign Richardson, he’s probably the defacto starting SG next season.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
I agree...I don't think he's ever cared about individual stats either..
but he has been upset in the past about his PLAYING TIME..and before the trade he gradually started to get more PT because Stan realized Vince wasn’t giving them what they needed on a nightly basis..so he went to JJ more and more. But after the trades that have taken place..JJ’s PT will go back down, and like before, I don’t think he’ll be too happy at the end of the bench.
Players that have sat on the bench the majority of their careers, if given the opportunity to play, will take that opportunity..especially if they’re in the prime of their careers..I think deep down, we as Magic fans hate to admit that JJ may be packing his bags soon if given that opportunity..but this is the reality we’re faced with..
Oh, I think he's probably gone
He’s just not going anywhere near Cleveland.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 21, 2010 7:43 AM EST up reply actions
Varejao is better than JJ. Daniel Gibson is doing what JJ does.
And he’s been better at it this season.
by Hoop Dreams on Dec 20, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Addition from within?
I like this move for the reason that Bass moves in the starting lineup. He is an aggressive scorer and rebounder. He also does it with out having plays called for him. A backcourt rotation of Nelson, Arenas, Richardson, Redick is a pick and roll nightmare. Jason Richardson is also the two guard we’ve needed for 5 seasons. He’s efficient and even before this trade I considered him a top 6 or 7 SG but someone who is vastly underrated. Richardson’s perimeter defense in also underrated, I don’t believe it was an emphasis in Pheonix, but it will be here. I don’t know that we’ll beat the Celtics or Heat, but I do know doing it’s game on time and now we have a chance.
I like the trades.
A few thoughts:
- These moves weren’t made with defense in mind (at least one hopes not). Jason Richardson is a bad defender, Arenas isn’t very quick, and Turkoglu’s not very athletic. The key is that this shouldn’t matter as much since the Magic have the 2-time DPOY making things easier on everyone.
- Clearly, shot-creation and sparking of offensive energy were the needs addressed. Lewis was playing like a shadow of his former self, and Vince Carter, while blessed with extraordinary innate talent, is too injury-prone, too timid, and too streaky. J-Rich and Arenas are on a different tip. They are more energetic and aggressive on the offensive end, and can both shoot well from beyond the arc. That’s what this team needs. The Magic lost some of that crazy aggressiveness when Matt Barnes left. Throw Turkoglu in the mix, and you get another good outside shooter.
- Brandon Bass has mad skills but he’s also turnover-prone and a bad passer. Turkoglu can work at PF because he’ll create more for others, which Bass isn’t ideal for. That’s why Kobe Bryant said he liked Orlando’s offense much better with Hedo involved — Carter is a more traditional one-on-one threat, and Orlando’s offense needs ball movement and less predictability.
- Losing Gortat and Pietrus will hurt. Pietrus would have been an ideal defender on Lebron, Pierce and/or Kobe in the playoffs. But the Magic had that last year and it would have been another rerun if the team had just kept all of the 2009-10 pieces intact.
We're definitely going to have to outscore teams now.
I’m still hoping we flip one of these offensive players into a defensive one. I don’t think we’re balanced anymore.
by Hoop Dreams on Dec 20, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
True.
Poorly worded, but I meant we’ll have to go point for point instead of getting stops. Who do we count on to get stops in close games?
Honestly
There’s still a possiblity that Orlando could get an effective big out there on the market and I wouldnt be suprised if they persue one before the trade deadline.
Now I have no idea who that could be….but I do know we have assests we can trade. I could honestly see us moving JJ Redick as the only assest that teams would want. He’s one of our most effective players but at the same time, I see his playing time diminishing and finding a place in the system with J-Rich and Gilbert (combo guard) in there.
Same deal with Ryan Anderson. I dont know if Otis would package them off to say Denver for one there bigs or something (I’m not sure about the salaries matching or anything)
They got a big 3, but we got a big 12.
"To my Hustlers, heres some motivation: He who has begun is half done, why you waiting?"-NaS
Certified Kristin Kreuk obsessive.
JJ's a moveable asset, yes
But who would he be happy to go to?
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Only thing I don't like is
The fact that JRich’s contract is up at the end of the season. Hate to think of him leaving and all we got for VC and Rashard were Arenas and Hedo. Guess there are worse things out there that could have happened though.
I guess some of that will depend.....
…on Bird Rights provisions showing up in the new CBA. He’d be worth keeping a few more years (at a lower price).
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
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by magicfaninTN on Dec 19, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
But having a hard cap might be part of it too. Stern is pushing for it.
If there is a hard cap, you can offer more money to that player… if you have the cap space. If there is no soft cap with a luxury tax, then you wouldn’t be able to pay more just to keep that player without shedding other salaries.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
They have a cap now. But it's one that rich teams can afford to break.
It’s not difficult to see the owners pushing for a hard cap, especially since Stern is in favor of it. It creates more parity in the eyes of Stern.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
JRich will most likely be demanding a monster contract
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
J-Rich is 30.
I don’t want to give him a massive contract in his waning years.
by Hoop Dreams on Dec 20, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
He would be willing to sign back with us as long as Arenas is here and OTis is still the GM
I dont see him having a problem with committing to here,
Glad you have such an intimate knowledge of Richardson's desires and the FA market next summer.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
this^
Just one mans opinion...
"We will pick 2 corners within the first 4 rounds" - 2009
"We will have 4 new linebackers via FA and the draft" - 2010
by MagicDolphin on Dec 19, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
No, wasn't trying to sound intelligent.
I was trying to sound like an ass because this season has brought out the most ridiculous posts.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
by slickw143 on Dec 20, 2010 1:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for honesty.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Dec 21, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
OK
Let me rephrase slick’s point.
On what basis to you make such an assumption?
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Celts fan here
From a Celtics fan point of view it seems you guys shook things up which needed to be done not sure how much better you guys got? You will need another big for sure the Celts learned that lesson the hard way last year. Good luck and see ya on X mas.
If you are going to Eagle, Colorado just get a massage.
You guys are probably going to roast us on national TV again.
But thanks for the good wishes either way.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Free agency is the answer for Dwight's backup...
Noone will take 15 million for Duhon. Can’t believe im saying this..but you have players like Dwayne Jones, Mikki Moore, hell Chris Mihm is even available…remember it’s just to RELIEVE Dwight for a few not REPLACE him…
by Memphissleek on Dec 19, 2010 2:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions
couple of things:
why is richardson not an upgrade on defense compared to carter?
i thought it was funny reading that the magic have no more assets to trade, and then reading this article: “time to trade jj redick” lang greene
by thejugs on Dec 19, 2010 3:08 PM EST reply actions
Because
Richardson doesn’t play defense. At all. Ever.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
oh yeah…backup c…
d league…chris johnson…pretty impressive so far…
http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/chris_johnson/index.html
by thejugs on Dec 19, 2010 3:24 PM EST reply actions
He's a shot blocker
that is nice to have in a backup C
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
He's skinnier than Lewis...
Just saying
by Memphissleek on Dec 19, 2010 5:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And he's going up against guys who have NO potential to be NBA players.
I'm a dude!
Orlando Pinstriped Post: Where game threads turn into online chat rooms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPlLyVuMf7U
Mikki Moore should be the guy...
Very, very active. And hes been to the big stage before as a role player. There’s not much offensive skill there—but he makes it up with his energy…
by Memphissleek on Dec 19, 2010 5:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Moore brings nothing to the table at all, except fouls
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Better his than Bass' and Anderson's...
by Memphissleek on Dec 19, 2010 6:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So this young guy cant foul???
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
But you someone who has been there before...
This would be the EXACT same situation he had in Boston win they won it all
by Memphissleek on Dec 19, 2010 9:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Even Daniel Orton can foul
I agree, Moore’s a nothing player.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Huge CHEMISTRY upgrade
That is the key here. Turk is back where he meshes perfect with SVG. Gil and Richardson are real tight and will be disturbingly good playing together in the backcourt.
These guys are going to have fun and enjoy themselves. That is huge. They have all played together before. This has not been mentioned enough.
Reading my posts is a privilege and I will ban anyone who disagrees with me from the Internet for life.
Lets See if the option in Chucks prophecy comes to pass, lol!
I remember during the first run during the Eastern finals, Chuck made a prediction that said, that the Magic will either have to get rid of Lewis or Turk, if we wanted to make it to the next level….We got rid of Turk first, got close again, but no….So we got rid of Lewis and bring back Turk….alright, lets see…lol
I'm glad we got rid of Rashard.
Vince not so much, but I guess, that was really a necessity, with all the new acquisitions. Arenas is obviously a BIG gamble, and we can only hope that he will fit well and not become another burden to the team. As far as Richardson and Turkoglu are concerned, I think they will do well. Perhaps unrealistically, but I expect Hido to make the biggest impact. And unlike Gilbert and Richardson, an immediate impact, too. Apparently he biggest downgrade is departure of Gortat as our only legit backup center. Hopefully, we’ll make another trade which will take care of that, but I must say, things don’t really look much better than prior to the trades. The new roster might be enough for Heat, but highly unlikely for Celtics, and even less so, for Lakers, assuming we advance to the finals and of course, Lakers, on the other end, get pass by Spurs and Mavericks.
And yea, I would rather see Q. Richardson leave instead of Pietrus, but of course, that was impossible.
Yeah, who's gonna step out of bounds on a fast break? Or shot 80% of his shots from 3-land?
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Dec 19, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
You have your memories, I'll have mine.
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Dec 19, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Both are right. Why focus on the negative with a player who has been a big contributor for a successful team?
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
The best way I can explain Pietrus is he was frustratingly good
he had all the athletic ability in the world but settled for the easy way.
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 19, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. Frustratingly good is a great way to put it.
Exciting and maddening at the same time.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Cetainly that has nothing to do with SVG.
Pietrus simply calls his own shots and completely disobeys any instruction from the bench. Yea, right.
Or act as a black hole when the ball's passed to him and force 3 pointers up unnecessarily because he's just got to shoot it.
He also was honestly not the defender that we wanted him to be and he completely bailed on driving to the basket. Pietrus was a fun guy to have around and watch up he had to frustrate the hell out of coaches and teammates. He played his own game, all in his head, no matter what situation was going down on the court. We can miss his goofy face but we shouldn’t and wont miss his game.
Crushing weaker minds since 1978
Over 1 million served.
What the hell is going on with my words!?! I need to slow down. Too many mistakes. Forgive me.
Crushing weaker minds since 1978
Over 1 million served.
Wizards/Gilbert Arenas fan here.
My opinion of Gil right now, is that the guy is still much better than his numbers indicate this year. He has been very detached from our team, he has been waiting on this trade all year. He will have a huge impact on this team, only thing is, J Richardson doesn’t quite fit on the court with him. Unless Richardson accepts a role as simply a jump shooter. Gil might be at 90% of his former abilities, but that is still pretty friekin’ talented.
My guess-Gilbert is going to be at All-star level by the end if this year. He is going to be a great locker room fit with Dwight and the bunch. Orlando was always my favorite competition for LeBrick in his Cleveland days, and now with him and his super hero trio, so I wish Howard and the crew ALL of the luck in the world.
As long as that knee holds up, you guys are gonna love you some Gil.
by returnofswagger on Dec 19, 2010 8:04 PM EST reply actions
I still can't seem to get excited about Arenas at all. Certainly can't overcome the terror his contract poses.
From Kelly Dwyer:
“Arenas isn’t a wild card. He’s an inefficient scorer and terrible defender who could follow two months of make-good play in Orlando by completely scuttling things, and he owns the league’s worst contract, one that has four years and $60 million left on it including this season (a year that has seen him shoot under 40 percent). But even with Arenas’ off-the-court issues, and the fact that his contract goes two years longer than that of Lewis, just about anything (at any position) would be an upgrade over Lewis.”
All things considered, I would’ve voted to just bench Lewis for the time being.
What did he get wrong?
Gil has four years left including this season.
He got the money wrong (it’s roughly $60m AFTER this season, not including) but Dwyer’s a play guy, not a cap geek.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Probably counted the partially guaranteed year as a half year and rounded up, researcher.
by CaliFlorida on Dec 20, 2010 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
Here you go Kelly Dwyer,
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando.htm
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 20, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
What happens if there is a hard cap of say $70 million in 2012?
Can they just go slashing contracts? Not count pre-existing contracts? Maybe the rules will change and the team will be saved.
What’s the hope otherwise? B/c there is zero chance Dwight would ever want to play with Hedo & Arenas as cornerstones in 2013.
I have no idea
the NBA will have to let teams cut the roster in some way that is fair
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 20, 2010 1:08 AM EST up reply actions
Who knows?
They could give all the contracts in the league a big haircut, they could force teams to trade players to get under the cap, they could allow another contract holiday clause to allow teams to dump a contract without a cap hit, they could have a sunset clause on the hard cap allowing teams over the cap a gradual period of time to get down under it…
There’s a lot of ways to play with it. We won’t know until negotiations get a lot further along.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
Clark isnt left handed, buthe is potential laden, and sadly did not work out in PHX.
Jrich meanwhile adds what lewis did in 08-09 with his three point shooting, and he plays fairly well off the dribble. Swapping carter for jrich was a smart move for both teams imo. Good luck guys
Vince Carter>Jason Richardson
The PHX fans mostly consider Clark a nothing player
I have zero aspirations with him
I probably know Judo! How many of you can make the same boast?
by Souwantmyname on Dec 20, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
From a Suns fan
I can tell you that Clark is a waste of talent. Once he gets the chance to play he makes stupid decisions such as jacking up a shot every time he gets the ball and or time to be a play maker and throwing ball out of bounds. The guy is athletic and a pretty good defender. but doesn’t seem like he wants to try. Think a less talented Anthony Randolph. Nash said he is a hard worker, didn’t seem like it out on the court, but who knows.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Oooh
A tall, crap defending Pietrus.
SOUNDS LIKE FUN
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
He's a pretty good defender and athletic
but a horrible shooter.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
OK
Exactly like a taller Pietrus.
AWESOME SAUCE
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
It's like you're trying to make me laugh harder and harder,
and it’s only laughing because I don’t want to cry.
Haters gonna hate.
by MoveThoseChains on Dec 20, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
Clark has MAJOR upside, if SVG can develop him into a rotational player, expect great things from him
Vince Carter>Jason Richardson
no no no
Clark is a role player at best
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
With major upside-if he can break out of his messed up mentality he'd be a true baller
Vince Carter>Jason Richardson
Earl Clark isn't left handed
lol
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
I love the Magic, I really do.
I was born and raised in Orlando so this team is really a part of my life. Everything they do I always try to find a bright side to it. When they got rid of Hedo and C-Lee I was living in New York at the time and got the opportunity to watch Carter play, so I liked the idea. When they got rid of T-Mac for Francis I hated it, but figured why keep a disgruntled player around, no matter how talented, if he wants out? I remember when we drafted Fran from Spain and figured we would get something out of him even tho I looked at Granger and knew he was going to be good.
With all the love I have for this team, and all the hopes and dreams I have to see them succeed, I simply can not bring myself to believe this is a good trade for us. And there are several reasons why;
1) Defense wins championships, and we just got worse defensively.
2) Arenas is an inefficient scorer and injury prone. Plus he’s border line insane. Not to mention his contract is WORSE than Rashards! Maybe not in the short term, but in the long term for sure.
3) As much as I like Hedo as a person, I hate him as a basketball player. He makes too many stupid plays and his D is so so at best. Worst of all, his contract.
4) J Rich is good, but as several people pointed out he plays little to no D at times.
All in all, I don’t see this making us better than Boston or Miami. And i don’t see how taking on all that money will pay off for us in the future. I really can’t see Gilbert freakin Arenas bringing us a championship. This is it for Otis, if this fails hand him his pink slip. I hope i’m wrong. I hope to God that I’m wrong. Go Magic….
My 'can do' spirits in the house, and its possessing your possessions did you hear it by the couch?
by Dome of the Rock on Dec 20, 2010 1:08 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I wish I didn't have to agree with you across the board.
Rec.
Haters gonna hate.
by MoveThoseChains on Dec 20, 2010 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
Thoughts from a Suns fan...
JRich – The best player of the trade in my opinion. At first, a lot of Suns fans doubted he was worth trading fan favorite Raja Bell and MIP Boris Diaw, and he wasn’t helping us change our minds his first season here, we even didn’t make the playoffs and he was a fourth string scorer. Fast forward to last season, still raising questions midseason and we wanted to package him in a trade with Amare, but after the trade deadline, he started dominating, he became a great 3pt shooter and a prolific scorer, especially in the playoffs, but the bad thing about him was that he played no D and was terribly inconsistent, one game he would score 30, the next 25, followed by 8, 4 and 12. That was sure to drive Coach Gentry crazy. I don’t think JRich will thrive with the Magic because Howard, Arenas and Nelson will take points from him, hell, even Turk probably will, and I would expect his play to go back to how it was in 08-09.
Turk – You guys know him better than I do but you may not have watched him this season. We got rid of him so early because he didn’t fit in well. I believe Nash and Dragic both complained about him too. He passed on a lot of open three’s early on and didn’t score well. Some games he was non existent, others he was putting up double doubles. On a team that had Earl Barron as their starting Center, there was no way he could do well at PF. He also seemed very fatigued during the season.
Clark – I’ll take an excerpt of my old post.—-
I can tell you that Clark is a waste of talent. Once he gets the chance to play he makes stupid decisions such as jacking up a shot every time he gets the ball and or time to be a play maker and throwing ball out of bounds. The guy is athletic and a pretty good defender. but doesn’t seem like he wants to try. Think a less talented Anthony Randolph. Nash said he is a hard worker, didn’t seem like it out on the court, but who knows. As far as his attitude, he’s cocky, and isn’t the brightest guy around.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Awesome
Sounds like we did great business.
{sad face}
by eltharion_doa on Dec 20, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions
That's pessimistic-
Then again, who on the suns actually plays D?
who would of thought we would be arguably the greatest of all time
around here we developed such a sound down here
but duplicate it off the steel it can only be found here
Dudley, Hill, Childress, Lopez, Dragic
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
This is going to be an exciting team to put on the floor every night.
It’ll be hella fun, but I’m terrified at the same time.
Everything I’ve been saying about this team suggested we had the right approach and we just needed to be patient until we could move Vince and Rashard for the right pieces. We’ve moved both but haven’t gotten any younger or any bigger. This is scary.
There have to be more moves made.
On the bright side, Jason Richardson is the prize of the lot, and maybe Earl Clark will be a rotation big one day. Turk will probably help more than he hurts.
But Zero….I’m sure Arenas will have some dazzling games, but I can’t see us riding with Gil’s bad knees. Feels like Grant Hill all over again.
Isn’t his contract going to be even harder to move than Rashard’s? How quickly is this guy deteriorating as a player?
Worried about this dude…
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