Orlando Magic in Familiar Place after 24 Games
by Evan Dunlap on Dec 14, 2010 8:01 AM EST
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PrintYou'd be hard pressed to find any NBA observer who believes the 16-8 Orlando Magic, who have the league's second-highest payroll, are living up to their potential this season. An ugly four-game losing streak raised serious doubts about their standing in the league, and in the bigger picture, 16-8 represents the team's worst start since Stan Van Gundy took over in 2007. How quickly everyone forgets that Orlando looked like a championship contender when it went 10-1 over a three-week period starting on November 13th.
Through 24 games, the Magic own an average scoring margin of plus-5.1; curiously, they had an identical scoring margin at this point of their schedule two years ago, when they went on to advance to the NBA Finals. Their record stood at 18-6, so nobody was really panicking, at the time.
The point here is that, from at least one standpoint, the current Magic team that seems like such a letdown to many of its fans is actually right on track with the 2008/09 squad, which is so beloved. Scoring margin isn't everything, of course. I realize that. But the 2009 team went from "pretty good" to "freaking fantastic" once its three-point shooting corrected itself and the defense took it to antother gear, contending for a championship despite subbing the production of two mediocre point guards (Rafer Alston and Anthony Johnson) for one All-Star one (Jameer Nelson) in mid-February. There's no reason why the current team can't make a similar advance as the season goes along.
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Even is Right
Guys Everyone just needs to RELAX
This^^^
-FLORIDA STATE SEMINOLES-;;-►
by Blood, Sugar, Sex, ORLANDO Magic on Dec 14, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
The problem is
That the Magic beat a Celtics team without Kevin Garnett. I love Jameer, but come on one of the top5 at worst top10 PF of all time compared to a one time All-Star is not the same.
Exactly. We won't much up well at all with a healthy Boston
Boston outworked us in the playoffs last year. It will help to have a blue collar guy like Bass in there, but we need someone on the wings who can create their own shot. They lock down the perimeter real well and plug up the paint with Garnett in the game.
Reading my posts is a privilege and I will ban anyone who disagrees with me from the Internet for life.
Jameer isn't the same as KG. However...
It’s true that not having Jameer is not the same as not having KG. Boston did have some other things.
They had home court advantage
They had a game 7 at home on a Sunday (which they had never lost)
They had a 3-2 series lead
They had one game without the Magic’s backup point guard – a suspended Rafer Alston
They had the experience of being defending champions against a team that hadn’t been to the ECF in 13 years
I’m not saying the Magic will beat Boston this year, but until we ACTUALLY play them can we stop with all of the doom and gloom? It really isn’t as one sided as everyone seems to want to believe.
dn ǝpıs sıɥʇ
All good points.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
Im just being real
The heat are surpassing us right now. It is going to be very tough to win the east this year and then a title with our current roster.
Reading my posts is a privilege and I will ban anyone who disagrees with me from the Internet for life.
Yeah but that team had better fits to a system that SVG ran
Hedo and Rashard at the forwards were killing everyone in the East. Rashard is not as good as he was that year as well. Also Rondo is much much better as well. This Celtics team might be the best since the KG and Ray Allen trades. However this Dwight Howard is also better. So we have that going for us. I still think we need a shake up. If we win the Finals then I will be wrong.
there's always fresh emotions right after a game.
but the team is still top 3 in the East.. so that’s fine for the meantime. I’m just worried that Dwight’s increased offensive performance is masking the inefficiencies of the bench.
Jameer hasn’t been as locked in as he was before his illness. He was in All-Star mode against Miami and Chicago
He had 17 and 9 against the Clippers (except that was against the Clippers).
Hopefully he continues to trend back towards pre-illness Jameer.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
There are certain reasons to be concerned with current state of affairs while the numbers could have been even better. We certainly would not have lost to MIL and ATL if we had our normal line-ups in place.
So a realistic 18-6 (counting MIL and ATL games as victories) would indicate that this team is even better than the 2008-09 squad? The answer is an emphatic negative, looking at the entirety of elements involved:
1 – Our line-ups have been shaky: back-up PG seems out of sync; with quarter of the season gone, we are still experimenting with line-ups;
2 – Offensive production is down: shooters are on-and-off;
3 – Despite good defensive numbers (due to Dwight factor) our defense has been spotty allowing high scoring opportunities to teams with decent wing players or bigs attacking the basket; we do not defend dribble-penetration well;
4 – We have struggled with – and sometimes lost to – teams which should have been beaten normally, a hallmark of Stan Van Gundy’s teams.
Airing these concerns do not mean that corrections would not be made so that potentials are realized, and the team to reach its expected average/mean numbers. The team – however inconsistent – shows positive flashes of what they are capable of in all different areas of concern pointed out above.
I agree
I don’t think we’re as good as we were in 08 when we reached the Finals. Jameer is playing close to his level in 08 when he was an All-Star but Rashard has regressed each of the past 2 seasons. He was our second best player in the Finals run and is now our 5th best player behind Bass. Moving him to his natural position, SF could in fact turn everything around if he’s used properly so I do think there is a big upside so I’ll say right now we’re certainly not as good as we were in 08 but the season is young and Rashard is back at his most lethal position.
Even if we are as good as we were in 08 we can’t ignore that LA, BOS & MIA have improved tremendously so we shouldn’t have the mind-set that being as good as we were in 08 will get us back to the Finals. LA with Artest, Brown, Barnes & Blake. BOS with KG, Shaq, Nate, J.O. & Rondo improving.
"It can be done, you can just crush somebody" -svg
Maybe
Someone should tell Chris Tomasson that Vince Carter’s playing the two, not the three, or that Lewis is spending a lot of time at SF to make room for Bass at PF.
Or maybe Chris Tomasson could actually spend some time watching the Magic before writing an article about how it’s players are struggling. Hack.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 14, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, if a supposed hack is able to perceive Lewis' lack of contributions, why aren't you?
As long as the Magic have Dwight, SVG, and a healthy Jameer, they will be right there at the end of the year. But if there is a glaring difference between the 2008-2009 team and the current one, Lewis is it. 2008-2009 Lewis = dynamic unconventional scorer and defensive contributor. 2010 Lewis up until now = non-factor.
by CaliFlorida on Dec 14, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Love it!!! I've been stunned by the Lewis supporters who don't seem to notice how badly his playing.
And then also are not able to compare his poor play to his massive salary. We are allowed to be displeased with this slacker. A certain “doa” commenter above is a regular Lewis defender who seems to always miss the fact that Lewis does very little on the court but celebrate the few things he does do. Every rebound he get’s bounces into his hands. There’s no effort. He’s the only player we have that we have to “get more involved” instead of him just “trying to be more aggressive.” Here ya go Lewis, here’s the ball right where you like it, now come on buddy, shoot it and make it, awww man! It still didn’t go in. Then there’s also the fact that he wont jump to attempt a block and usually wont jump to dunk except for one game earlier this season. There is no reason to defend him unless his play suddenly jumps up several levels and folks, that’s just NOT going to happen unless he get’s back on whatever magical “all star juice” that got him a 10 game suspension a while back. That was the last we’ll see of that player and even that was a false prophet.
You may be able to get your points across better if you don't fall on the extreme side, more often than not.
Let me ask you to please read that thread on Lewis again, and carefully. You may find some answers to the points which you have raised. A couple of main points: 1) Rashard’s calm demeanor should not be mistaken for lack of intensity or care; 2) it is not Rashard’s fault that he had been offered a lucrative deal when he was just about to turn 28; and 3) Rashard’s usage has gone through drastic change to the extent that there have been seldom incidents when plays have been called for him.
No
Chris Duhon has been a non factor. Lewis has just been mediocre.
I’m not defending Lewis, but that doesn’t make Tomasson any less of a hack. But please, continue building straw men.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 16, 2010 6:56 AM EST up reply actions
It's not crazy to look at the Magic's starting five and conclude Vince is the SF. Richardson's played a lot of his career at the 2.
But I think in this case, Tomason—whom I like and respect very much—was pretty transparently trying to find a way to link the two players so he could make a point. “Magic players Carter and Lewis” doesn’t have the same ring, or whatever, as “Orlando hasn’t gotten much production from its starting forwards for the second straight season.” The second bit of prose is a bit punchier.
by Evan Dunlap on Dec 14, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
It is if you've been watching them play
Maybe not if you’re just looking at box scores and writing an article on that basis.
It’s a classic case of making things up to fit a predetermined narrative, rather than looking at the facts, and writing what is there. There’s plenty of scope to criticise Lewis if that’s what you want to do, without having to pretend Carter’s a forward.
by eltharion_doa on Dec 16, 2010 7:00 AM EST up reply actions
is it because we have too many offensive weapons or not enough
cause i dont expect lewis to score like he did in 2007/2008 or 2008/2009 since we have carter. I think its because we only have 1 main playmaker instead of 2
Tell me what you guys think...
Do ya’ll think that we could get the Hornets to let go of Chris Paul and David West with a package of VC. B. Bass and Jameer?? Or would we need need to send them more pieces?? And if so..who?
If you were NOH, would /you/ do that trade??
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Dec 14, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Probably not.. but who else would you add in the trade to make it happen...
Or are you saying that NO wouldn’t do the trade period..no matter who the Magic wanted to give up?
The NBA Hornets will not let CP3 go as long as they are looking for a new owner.
You don’t eliminate your most prized asset when you are trying to sell.
by Both_Teams_Played_ on Dec 14, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
That's my thinking as well, unfortunately.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
no
They need to sell tickets. And they need to be bought. The Hornets just need to be moved to Seattle. Also that package is unacceptable for two studs. Seriously not trying to call you out or anything but that would be worst than the Kwame trade.
Phrase I should have included:
The beloved 2009 Finals team didn’t come bursting out the gate; it needed time to hit its stride .The same MIGHT be true of this team.
This is true as well..I watched them play last night against the Heat and..
they seem to have a solid core 1 thru 5 (don’t know about their bench tho). They’re just struggling right now, something tells me they’ll pick it up in no time
Well to be frank, before the virus bug the Magic looked really really good chemistry wise to me
by Raptorel on Dec 14, 2010 1:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That they did.
"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07
This
I am sort of amazed at the short memories here. Even at the start of the virus (before it completely decimated the team) they blew out a highly regarded Chicago Bulls team on the road and the 2nd night of a back to back. They also won 10 out of 11.
Of course, those games don’t matter, I guess. Only a really tough road schedule with back-to-backs from Pacific to Mountain back to Pacific while missing (or nursing recovering) players can be considered.
And people say Van Gundy panics.
dn ǝpıs sıɥʇ
I got accused of being "obssessed with the Miami Heat" the other day. I'm not obssessed...just realistic.
They seem to be on the way to reaching their potential, and when they do, it’s over for the rest of the Eastern Conference. Boston would be the only team who has a chance against them, and we wouldn’t even beat Boston in a 7 game series. My point is that with our current roster, our ceiling is 3rd best in the Eastern Conference. So, we might recover and win between 57-60 games, but we are no longer in championship contention, barring a trade or injuries to one of the top teams (Miami, San Antonio, Boston, L.A.).
That is all speculation and personal views. MIA has many flaws.
To say “it’s over for the rest of the Eastern Conference” is naive at best, since BOS is still playing the best in the East and Magic has not realized its potentials yet.
You are absolutely right. It is based on personal views...
But it is also based on an evaluation of talent. I believe we are are capable of beating those elite teams, but several things would have to go our way. The fact is…those teams are more talented than we are. Boston, L.A. and San Antonio have better rosters than we do from top to bottom, and Mia has 2 hall of famers and a perennial all-star in their primes. So, their “full potential” trumps our “full potential.”
Sorry to beat the horse but I just don't see the fire in the eyes of some of our guys
unlike Bass and Reddick who bring it every night to name a couple, Lewis and Duhon
I think I get the point of this article, and I appreciate it.
Sometimes I feel like the home-page of OPP needs to take a Hitch-Hiker’s Guide approach to its patrons.
All that aside – I don’t feel panicked, but I am concerned, and I think my concern is warranted.
Because this isn’t 2008/09, so those comparisons don’t seem to me to be entirely valid. Not only is this team different (Hedo-Vince, personality, DH12’s offensive changes) but the entire league (especially in the Eastern conference) has changed dramatically. While Orlando may be posting similar numbers in some regard, I don’t feel like they have a real bearing in the reality of this season, although I do respect what I perceive to be the intent of this article.
All that said, I think the reason that the reason for such weeping and gnashing of teeth by many fans is because in 2009/09 most people were just happy, and somewhat surprised, to reach the Finals. This season, the expectation is championship, and that is a horse of a different color.
I also have it, on my own authority, that I am an expert on this stuff.
Can you explain this statement?
“Sometimes I feel like the home-page of OPP needs to take a Hitch-Hiker’s Guide approach to its patrons. "
The cover of the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is emblazoned with the words "DON'T PANIC"
in all caps, which is why it is fictionally the best-selling guide to the universe.
Sorry. Nerd joke.
I also have it, on my own authority, that I am an expert on this stuff.
Don't forget your towel.
Proudly mocking the Disciples of Panic (some Magic fans) since October 29, 2010.
Should Vince just come off the bench?
Look Vince needs shots to be effective. He will never get that with Dwight and Jameer and apparently Bass all of the sudden on the first team. Just a thought.
I wanted VC to come off the bench
but other OPP members are correct when they say we need the best starting 5 on the court becaused they are the bulk of the minutes. With the currect line-up of Jameer, VC, Lewis, Bass & Howard, really what we should do is simply exploit matchups each and every time.
There’s no way in hell with that starting 5 that we don’t have mismatches against every team in the league. Whomever the matchup favors is the guy(s) who should be getting the ball unless someone w/o a mismatch catches fire. Play smart, within themselves and exploit matchups.
"It can be done, you can just crush somebody" -svg
That's correct
Basketball is a game of matchups and on the fly adjusments
They should
They get paid more. I am just saying. If Antwain Jameson and Lamar Odom can come off the bench why can’t Vince??
It doesn't matter the peak, it matters the present
I like the idea of Vince coming off the bench to play with the second unit if as a starter he’s used badly anyway…
i would be all for it
because remember it was jj redick that was in the line up when we were in the playoffs trying to make history when vince didnt do jack squat. with redick starting vince can come of the bench and be our jamal crawford or turkoglu and create offense or handle the ball with duhon pietrus anderson and gortat out on the court with him as well
Or use him like SA uses Manu
Either Parker or Manu are on the floor at all times and when only one of them are on the floor that’s the individual who runs their offense. I think VC can totally do that for us and J.J. seems to really get up for games when he gets that starting slot. With our main offense from the second unit now being our starting 4 it’s something to keep an eye on. Then again, with J. Will hopefully replacing Duhon as the backup PG we won’t be playing 4 on 5 so that alone could yield huge gains. I think SVG will be trying diligently to nail down his rotations sooner rather than later ala Barnes being named a starter 41 games into the season. I’d like to see where we are after another 8 games of the new rotations ala Rashard at the 3, Bass at the 4 and J. Will at backup PG to see if things improve (which I’m 100% certain they will).
"It can be done, you can just crush somebody" -svg
Stan seemed to have a really good thing going in the pre-season.
Rashard looked deadly at the 3, we were using the “Twin Towers” some, Vince was on fire, Bass was daring his critics to deny his improvement, and Dwight was showing a confidence in his new moves. That team looked like it had the FLEXIBILITY to compete with Boston, L.A., etc. We had a counter for just about anything and could go big or small.
I want THAT team back….
Rashard’s struggles started and Stan took the heat by saying he might be having a hard time shuttling back and forth between the 3 and the 4. Why? Rashard didn’t seem to have a problem in the pre-season. Lamar Odom willingly plays 3/4/5. Pau has played 4/5 very well. Sadly, both of those guys are better than Rashard. Still, I don’t see why guys can’t move around a bit more when match-ups call for it, especially Rashard who is a natural 3 who has learned to play the 4.
It seems like Stan was onto something early and we backed off of that a bit. Curious to see if this new line up with Rashard BACK at the 3 can recapture some of that early “Magic.”
You had that team as recently as 2 weeks ago
Remember? When the Magic had won 10 of 11 and crushed the Bulls on the road and a 2nd night of a back to back? They even had the best record in the East back then.
Of course, that was also the beginning of missed games due to illness right as they hit a brutal stretch of tough scheduling and tough teams so no one remembers and instead wants to blow the team up.
dn ǝpıs sıɥʇ
The way I see it is.
Our Magic don’t win every game in convincing fashion, that is why most people think we can’t make it back to the ECF. We barely won in NJ and yet we beat the Pistons with our second unit. Our team lacks consistency. If we are the elite that we say we are, even if our 3point shooting doesn’t work, we find other ways to win. We don’t keep jacking up 3s until it finally goes in. My point is.. if we start to win games, win them in convincing fashion..No collapses in the 3rd. Have a winning streak. I think it will shut some mouth in the process.
Wow...that move right there is why I'd love to see Anthony in a Magic uniform...
Though I know it’ll never happen.
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