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Utah Jazz 117, Orlando Magic 105

The Orlando Magic played one of their best offensive games of the season Friday night, but it wasn't enough against the Utah Jazz, as they fell by a decisive 117-105 margin. Deron Williams led all scorers with 32 points, Paul Millsap scored 20 of his 22 in the first half, and C.J. Miles poured in a season-high 26 points in 21 minutes off Utah's bench in the victory. The Jazz simply had more firepower throughout the game, shooting 9-of-13 from three-point range in the second half to hold off Orlando's late rally. The loss, the Magic's fourth straight, drops Orlando to 15-8 on the season.

Six Magic players scored in double figures, with Jameer Nelson's 19 points leading the way. But with Al Jefferson playing the best defensive game of his life against Dwight Howard, who missed 10 of his 15 shots from the floor and finished with 15 points, the Magic too often had to rely on their perimeter players to score. In the telltale third quarter, which Utah won by a 24-15 margin, the Magic missed all 6 of their three-point tries.

Coach Stan Van Gundy's decision to shuffle his starting lineup by moving Brandon Bass into it paid dividends offensively, as Bass scored 18 points on 8-of-11 shooting. But Bass proved unable to slow Millsap, who bullied Bass by lowering his shoulder to create space for his step-back jumper time and again. Williams managed to find Millsap under the hoop multiple times for easy scores, and while they aren't all Bass' fault, it's clear that Van Gundy still doesn't have an answer for the burly Louisiana Tech product.

Star-divide

TeamPaceEfficiencyeFG%FT RateOReb%TO Rate
Magic92114.753.1%25.028.616.4
Jazz93125.460.5%32.912.111.8
Green denotes a stat better than the team's season average;
red denotes a stat worse than the team's season average.

This game is among the toughest I've had to evaluate over the last three-plus seasons covering Orlando. Save for that horrid third period, the Magic played excellent offensively, generating the sorts of shots they wanted and making them at a decent clip despite Howard's ineffectiveness. Williams couldn't stay in front of Nelson on his drives to the hoop, which explains Nelson's game-high 10 assists figure, as he drew-and-kicked most effectively. But at the other end, Orlando played abysmally. I think. I'm not sure. When Miles and Andrei Kirilenko combine for 43 points on 21 shot attempts, and 6-of-8 shooting from beyond the arc, it's tough to evaluate a defense. I imagine Van Gundy can live with his team conceding three-point looks to the Kirilenkos and Mileses of this league if it means forcing the ball away from the Williamses and Millsaps, but when the shots drop... I don't know what to say.

Here's a sequence that illustrates what I'm talking about. At the 2:45 mark of the fourth, the Magic had drawn to within 7 points following a Nelson three-ball. On the ensuing Jazz possession, Williams handled the ball high on the left side against Nelson. The Magic sent Rashard Lewis to double team, freeing Millsap at the top of the arc. Mindful of Millsap's shooting stroke, J.J. Redick shaded toward Millsap, leaving Kirilenko open in the right corner. Williams fired the ball to Millsap, who then swung the ball to Kirilenko. Redick closed, but Kirilenko's long two-point offering rainbowed its way into the net. Kirilenko isn't much of a jump-shooter, but on nights like tonight, he had it going.

On the next Magic possession, they missed two shots but maintained control thanks to a Nelson offensive rebound, but Millsap timed Nelson's crosscourt pass perfectly and darted into the lane for the steal. He found Kirilenko streaking on the break for a dunk, putting the Jazz up by 11 with 1:55 to play, sealing victory for the host team.

On a lot of other nights, the Magic's fourth-quarter rally might have resulted in a victory, and we'd all be here praising their resolve and cool under fire. Instead, the Jazz darn near shot the lights out, sent the Magic to their fourth straight defeat, and likely have Orlando fans wondering even more about the championship prospects of their team.

So Miles and Kirilenko had some uncharacteristically big games. That doesn't change the fact that Orlando failed to contain Williams and Millsap, two more known, and bankable, offensive commodities. Williams hit his share of tough shots--the long three-pointer he banged in with the shot clock approaching zero and Nelson practically in his shorts early in the third stands out--but overall you have to think there's something more the Magic could have done. The same applies to Millsap, who roasted Bass and Malik Allen time and again, Van Gundy was clearly determined to go big, so to speak, in order to combat Utah's strong big-man rotation of Millsap and Jefferson, given that he started Bass, subbed Allen for him in the first quarter, and tried playing backup center Marcin Gortat at power forward too. Right idea, but none of them could slow the Jazz's onslaught.

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Comments

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i think so

So did SVG basically say in the press conference after the game that if Duhon doesn’t push the ball up, he won’t be playing?

"Evan!
Unban me from the OPP!"...........David Polega

by AB's triple double on Dec 11, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

No... the Magic had a 4 game losing streak last season

Between January 2nd and January 8th, the Magic lost on the road to Chicago, on the road to Indiana, at home against Toronto, and on the road to Washington.

A lot of people were panicking then, but lo and behold, the Magic snapped out of it and finished 33-8 in their last 41 games of the regular season.

"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

We can't be content

To be a good regular season team.

by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not like the Magic flopped in the playoffs

They were two games away from going back to the Finals, and lost to a team that took the eventual champion Lakers to 7 games.

"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2010 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

But that team is better this year

I think we might be worst than last year. Just look at Dwight’s body language. He honestly looks like he hates some of the guys he has to go to war with.

by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I respect your opinion, but I think it's too early in the season to say the Magic are worse than last year

…still a long way to go.

"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Alright

I think we need a shakeup.

by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I conditionally agree with this in terms of being too early in the season to judge the team, as the new arrivals have not gelled in yet.

I only differ that Magic is slightly worse than last year defensively. I still hold that Richardson is not as good as Barnes defensively while his offense has not really paid dividends yet.

by Matt1325 on Dec 11, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I know defense is a team concept....

But I don’t recall any games where we’re getting killed by the opposing SF. (Granted, I’m not taking time right now to go back and look, so maybe I’m wrong here).

And, I recall Barnes taking a while to gel with the starters. His pre/post All-Star game splits were noticeably different (with the latter half of the season being a big improvement). So, I agree with you, but would be interested to see the 1st-half-of-the-season splits between Q and Barnes just to see the quantitative difference in the numbers.

All that to say, I’m okay waiting a little longer, unless an obvious upgrade trade offer comes to light.

Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
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by magicfaninTN on Dec 11, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Comparing Rchardson's to Barnes' first half numbers with the Magic

Last season before the All-Star Break, Barnes averaged 8.6 ppg and 5.5 rebounds on 46.6% FG shooting and 29.5% three point shooting; so far Richardson is averaging 7.3 ppg and 4.3 rebounds on 38.5% FG shooting and 33.3% on threes.

As you noted, Barnes post All-Star Game numbers last season were noticeably better, as he averaged 9.3 ppg on 52.7% FG shooting and 36.8% on threes, and he started all 27 games after the break.

"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for the stats, Mike. My emphasis, however, was on the defensive comparison of the two players.

We were hoping that Richardson’s offensive potency will compensate for defensive deficiencies – if any, and that is open to debate – which may still happen in due time.

by Matt1325 on Dec 11, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure thing, Matt

Q-Rich should become more consistent on both ends of the floor as he gets more used to everything involved with the offense and defense.

"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

oh yeah :|

those were good times

I'm a girl.

by TheGiantSquid on Dec 11, 2010 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Hopefully, the same thing happens this year... with the Magic snapping out of their funk and playing well again

"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Even if we begin to turn it around and win bunches and bunches of regular season games...

… that’s not the goal. And as far as are Playoff run last year, it went well till things got tough and we folded. We have a tendency to do that and will do it again as soon as Boston starts pushing us around bully style. I hope you’re on the phone Otis.

by Matty B on Dec 11, 2010 1:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Your assessment of our playoff performance last year

is correct and I see nothing yet that will change things this season unfortunately without some new personnel.

by Jaxfann on Dec 11, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, because the series against Charlotte wasn't tough.

Y’know, with the whole Dwight playing the half of the game thing. The Magic never folded in any of those games. Granted, Boston is certainly a superior opponent, and the Magic certainly caved in the first 3 games. But they fought hard in the last 3 games (Game 6 was an anomoly, with Boston incapable of missing and our players missing every open shot).

The year before, the Magic certainly didn’t fold after falling behind 3-2 to Boston in the second round and having to play a game 7 in their gym.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Dec 11, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

So....

If we’re in win now mode, and we’re NOT winning…what should be done? I, personally think that somebody should remind this team that we have the second highest payroll in the league. No room for stuff like this.

My 'can do' spirits in the house, and its possessing your possessions did you hear it by the couch?

by Dome of the Rock on Dec 11, 2010 12:29 AM EST reply actions  

Randolph

is an expiring contract. So is Battier. That would clear about 24 mil

by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry didnt read your post

and understand it till the third time.

by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

We need to stop losing so coming to this site stops depressing me :/

"It's difficult to win when you're outscored in every quarter." -Bill Walton

by betterthanburke on Dec 11, 2010 12:44 AM EST reply actions  

I said in the game thread, and I'll say it here again

the Miami win was amazing.. and it shows how we can win if we have 2-3 players plugged in – but it’s not happening enough.

by RL Magic on Dec 11, 2010 12:53 AM EST reply actions  

Hope we had won this game

Except for the 3rd quarter, at least these 2 line-up are playing like they have some talent and chemistry:
Nelson-Carter-Lewis-Bass-Howard
Nelson-JJ-Carter-Lewis-Howard

Howard looks tired (and frustrated) …after playing 43 min the night before.

by isum on Dec 11, 2010 12:57 AM EST reply actions  

wouldn't you be?

Last night he played one of his most impressive games of his career, and they lost by double digits. Then the next night, he shoots poorly from the field, and they lose by double digits. I am perfectly fine with him being upset and frustrated. He should be! They have lost 4 in a row, everyone should be.

You can follow me on Twitter. Also run the @Amway_Get_Loud account.

http://twitter.com/JShannonhouse3

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by JeffShann3 on Dec 11, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

We need to perform as a team, rather than just having Dwight play well, or just having the shooters play well, or just having the bench play well.

by eltharion_doa on Dec 11, 2010 3:03 AM EST up reply actions  

THIS.

I also have it, on my own authority, that I am an expert on this stuff.

by Redfield on Dec 11, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I feel now that dwight is a better offensive weapon he is using tooo many posseisions

he neeeds to pick and choose when to go to the basket, they need to better better within the offense and to often now it seems like dwight is trying to force things like VC did last year, they both need to settle down and play within the offense

by Vanek on Dec 11, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If Dwight is scoring at an effecient rate

then why does it matter who it comes from? If he scores 50 and does it efficiently, why would you want someone else to contribute 15 and 15 while Dwight puts in 20? it doesn’t matter who is doing the scoring as long as the scoring is done efficiently.

I agree that performing as a team is the goal, but if Dwight can get it done at an effective rate, others need to find ways to play off him, not Dwight get his, then VC gets his, then Lewis gets his.

The offense is designed around Dwight, and it should stay as such.

You can follow me on Twitter. Also run the @Amway_Get_Loud account.

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by JeffShann3 on Dec 11, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree but i feel now that dwight is soooooooo confident he is starting to become OVERCONFIDENT

THis is causing his high turnover rate as well as he noticably is forcing things, i agree if he is playing like he did the other night when he got 39 for all mean shoot away, but i feel he is going for that 50 wheter its in him that night or not.

by Vanek on Dec 11, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

And, Dwight is LESS efficient this year.

His true shooting has dropped over 4% and his usage us up about 4.5%. His shooting percentage is down 3.3% and his offensive rebounding and assists are at a career lows. Efficiency usuall decreases with usage and Dwight is not exception.

We may need a little less usage by D12.

by Both_Teams_Played_ on Dec 12, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Losing on the road to Utah, on the second of a back-to-back, is nothing to be ashamed of

That would be a tough assignment for any team, let alone a struggling team like the Magic. If the Magic didn’t have such a poor third quarter, they could have won the game, but Utah deserves credit… when C.J. Miles can score 26 points (which ties for the second highest-scoring game of his career), and their top players play like they are expected to, the Jazz are not going to lose too many games.

Utah was so solid fundamentally… just 7 turnovers and 30 assists as a team compared to 15 turnovers and 18 assists for the Magic.

One thing I was encouraged about was the performance of Carter and Lewis offensively. They combined to score 32 points on 12 of 18 shooting and a TS% of 77.5%.

Six Magic players also scored in double figures; it’s been a while since that occurred.

Unfortunately, the Magic had their worst defensive game of the year in allowing 117 points.

"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions

by Mike from Illinois on Dec 11, 2010 1:06 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd. Because I agree with the "losing to Utah on a 2nd night of a back to back is nothing to be ashamed of"

You can follow me on Twitter. Also run the @Amway_Get_Loud account.

http://twitter.com/JShannonhouse3

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by JeffShann3 on Dec 11, 2010 1:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

No room for rational people here at Orlando Pinstriped Panic.

by eltharion_doa on Dec 11, 2010 3:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this. Magic played reasonably well, and there is no reason to hang their heads down. On a night which Utah played almost flawlessly, and shots of not-known-for-shooting people were falling, what could you do? Applaud and move on!

A couple of observations:

1 – JWill for Duhon, as many of us here were requesting for, allowed the second unit to move the ball better;
2 – Dwight seems to pass out to the shooters a lot less than before, and have been stripped a lot more down low. It also seems to me that shooters are not well positioned to allow for the pass out;
3 – Our perimeter defense seems to have many holes; why didn’t Pietrus play?
4 – J.J. played an exemplary game, and may be that explains Pietrus not playing, partially. But why Richardson and not Pietrus?

by Matt1325 on Dec 11, 2010 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Jazz shot the lights out

It happens. They’re a good team. Just be thankful we don’t have to see Millsap again until 2012/13.

by eltharion_doa on Dec 11, 2010 3:06 AM EST reply actions  

Wait, why? are you implying no season next yr due to lockout? Or did you mean 2011/2012?

Either way it doesn’t really matter, I was just curious.

You can follow me on Twitter. Also run the @Amway_Get_Loud account.

http://twitter.com/JShannonhouse3

http://twitter.com/Amway_Get_Loud

by JeffShann3 on Dec 11, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

how come duhon didnt play tonight? was he injured?

by rabidmonkey51 on Dec 11, 2010 3:34 AM EST reply actions  

VC and Lewis foolin you once again!

Fellow Magic fans, yes it is early, yes there is time, but WAKE UP! VC is not gonna get any better. He needs to go for Orl to have a shot at a title. Unfortunately for us we are stuck with Lewis. I laugh at the ones that say trade Gortat, really then who do we use vs the elites inside?
Somehow we need to unload VC while holding on to our bigs. We need a wing that can play the role that VC has been unable to fill. VC tried but his legs are shot and is why he is only good for a half. I think Otis making a move is a done deal afterall his job and reputation are on the line.

by O-Town MagiCane on Dec 11, 2010 9:40 AM EST reply actions  

Let's say you are right.

Who do you get that is justifiably an upgrade over Vince? Anyone who seems really available at this point is a lateral move at best, or is one of those “this guy has been a role player but we think he’ll step up now” sort of trades.

And, let’s be honest, Otis hasn’t been great at figuring out who is a role player but is ready to step up.

I personally don’t feel fooled, but the reality of the current trade market is not a pleasant one.

I also have it, on my own authority, that I am an expert on this stuff.

by Redfield on Dec 11, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and remember when we were losing to the Hornets by 17 and Vince scored 48?

Howard played bad in that game and Vince took over and played HIS style of basketball, which is iso and post-up plays. He turned it around and won the game. That’s why the Magic NEED to work with Vince on offense when Dwight doesn’t have it, and they aren’t.

That’s why I say they aren’t using him good at all.

by Raptorel on Dec 11, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

are you seriously bringing up a one game isolated incident for an argument?

Nothing remotely like that outing has happened since, and we need (and were expecting) efforts like that from him almost every 5-7 games to justify his liking on this team. He’s done, over the hill; hell I think grant hills game is better and more efficient right now.

www.southsyde.com

by gatorboi352 on Dec 11, 2010 10:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

yup

This right here. Trade him for spare parts because that is how he is treating his teammates at this point. Can you really go to battle with someone who says:“I have let the team down so far. I am going to come through in Game 4.” Uh no show. “I got your guys back for game 5.” No show. I mean come on, the season is on the line. Team like Orlando do not get to win titles often. In the NBA when you have dominant player and surround him with the right pieces that team can 4, 5, 6 titles. This team’s windows might be shut, but a trade could open a new window.

by Mateo9399 on Dec 11, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Well yeah that's his fault of not being more selfish and not DEMANDING the ball, like Reggie Miller was saying in his 48 point game

Demand the ball and do stuff with it. Instead, he lets others do it because "he just wants to be “a guy” in the mix". He still has the ability but not the mind set, and that annoys the heck out of me.

by Raptorel on Dec 11, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Surely you jest

I have seen far too many times where Vince is open and calling for it and Nelson looks away and forces a pass to the other side. You can’t swing the ball around the top if you only use half the floor.

Reggie doesn’t play in SVG’s regimented offense. Trust me if Stan wanted Vince to get the ball he would be yapping at Nelson.

by consultant99 on Dec 11, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I know, I've seen this in the game against the Jazz too

Vince with his hands open to receive the ball only to look in dissapointment as how another contested Jameer shot is missed.

Guess that’s what you do after you play so many years with Jason Kidd.

by Raptorel on Dec 11, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah and it's frustrating because people who don't play sports think you can suddenly "turn it on" in the 4th quarter

So they expect Vince to be hot and make every shot in the 4th quarter after he attempts 2 shots the entire game. That ain’t how it’s working in real life. That’s why a point guard is so important, and that’s why Kidd is so great – he makes all the other players better and they know they’re going to get the ball if they WORK at the offensive end, staying active, so they do it.

Vince is like “OK, I’m going to pace myself on offense and let Jameer get his, run through the flow of the game etc” which is fine, I don’t want him to force the issue and take wild shots (although his wild shots have a higher chance of going in than Jameer’s), but there’s a point where you as a person and you as a team need to recognize mismatches and use them until either it doesn’t work anymore, the other team uses double teams – which means another player is open, and the Magic is a team of shooters so that’s great, or they adjust (use a better defender or whatever).

That didn’t happen in the Jazz game. I can recall in the Pistons game Vince going berserk in the first quarter scoring… absolutely unstoppable if you allow him to be so. That means he still CAN do it, just USE HIM RIGHT.

by Raptorel on Dec 11, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Couldn't agree more

Nice to see he still can dunk – seeing a few more of those of late.

Too bad Kidd dogged it in his last couple of seasons with the Nets. because of the contract dispute. That first year Vince was with the Nets was amazing how well they played together to get into the playoffs without Jefferson. Vince was good for at least one alley-opp dunk per game from Kidd.

by consultant99 on Dec 11, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Well that and scoring 27.5 ppg

His shot is messed up right now because people try to change him… he’s always taken that fadeaway efficiently (or better than a normal jumpshot) and now he’s trying to change that and take on balance shots, a shot which shockingly enough he’s not accustomed to take. I think he has a higher chance of scoring a fadeaway than a up and down jumpshot because he’s always taken fadeaways and made them his signature jumpshot.

That’s another mistake I believe. I know people won’t agree because theoretically a fadeaway is a harder shot to make, but as a guy who has followed Vince for so many games I believe I know what I’m saying.

by Raptorel on Dec 11, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Shooting has suffered since his injury

I thought Vince was getting off some quality shots and making 3s on a regular basis before he was injured. I think that since he has been back he has struggled on his shot other than at the basket; the Detroit and Utah games being the exception.

There are not too many players in the league I would rather have than Vince taking the last shot with the game on the line. I do not believe he has even one game winning shot since he has been with the Magic. He did make a clutch 3 last year against the Heat but as I recall William’s missed some free-throws and Miami scored on a Wade shot that was short that Haslam dunked.

Boch must be sh*tting himself at how LJ was booed in Cleveland. He knows that’s nothing like the way Toronto fans have dumped on Carter for the last five years. Vince made some pretty clutch shots with the game on the line a number of times when the Nets came to Toronto. I wonder how many others could have done as well. We’ll see if Boch is up to it.

by consultant99 on Dec 11, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well Vince has a mix of 10 minutes of clutch shots by him on his youtube channel...

He had a clutch shot against the Bobcats in the season last year and one against the Hawks as well, but then Rashard didn’t box out Josh Smith and he dunked on the last play winning the game.

by Raptorel on Dec 11, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

VC is incapable physically!

What part of that do you not get? Yes VC has his moments but they are far and few. His legs are shot and you can see it in his lack of consistency. I like VC but it obvious he is not going to get any better or energetic. Just find somebody who is athletic and play defense. It doesnt have to be a star to play an effective SG on Orl.

by O-Town MagiCane on Dec 11, 2010 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

VC is not the problem right now.

The Magic are 6.1 points per 100 possessions better on offense with Vince on the floor.
The Magic are 12.2 points per 100 possessions better on defense with Vince on the floor. (Read that defensive number again.)

Vince’s individual defensive rating DRtg this season is 96! 96! Find me a SG with a better number that is playing more than 1/2 of his team’s minutes…..that is available for a trade.

via 82games.com updated thru 12/6/2010

Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games

by magicfaninTN on Dec 11, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

OH no, you did ent!

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Dec 11, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Through Dec 13

Vince has shared the court with Dwight for 71.25% of his minutes. Which means 28.25% of his floor time comes with Dwight on the bench. fwiw.

Definitions of “usually” now open for debate…..

Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games

by magicfaninTN on Dec 14, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I guarantee you, that dude will not respond to those stats.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Dec 11, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You do realize that Carter and Lewis both had good, effective, and efficient games last night, right?

You might at least wait for a bad game to scream reactionary panic.

Haters gonna hate.

by MoveThoseChains on Dec 11, 2010 1:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Trade Vince please .... put me out of my misery

Last night was a perfect example of why the Magic under SVG and with Nelson at point won’t win with the current line-up [in my opinion].

There was an obvious mismatch at the two guard spot – obvious to the commentators, analysts, fans, Jack the Bear, everyone but SVG and Nelson. We sure exploited that by posting Vince for what three possessions in the first quarter? You take what the defense gives you unless you are the Magic.

I just get the feeling that there is a quota system for anyone not named Howard or Nelson. Most nights that is more than enough to win. But when playing elite teams that is not enough. You can always go to Howard inside and Nelson can always dribble penetrate or pull up for a shot. What about the rest of the team?

So a great start for VC last night and he gets off 9 shots in the game. He is the only Magic starter with a positive plus/minus on the game and he and Bass (who was 8 for 11) play the least minutes of the starters. [Before you throw up JJ as having played exemplary please; check his plus/minus of -11. enuff said].

I have followed Vince throughout his career and have the up most respect for his abilities and how he has changed his game to remain competitive. If he has one fault it his honesty and in turn the comments he makes are always jumped on by his detractors.

He gets little respect from the press. Crucified for going to his graduation because a catch and shot from the corner with two seconds left in game 7 rimed out. How about being bullied to step aside and let MJ start in his last all-star game – when it was the fans that voted Vince as the starter. He gets little respect from the refs.You know that he once had a game against Seattle in which he took 27 foul shots; hard to believe when he almost has to be mugged before he gets a call these days. But I digress.

It is frustrating to watch this team play. The inside outside game only works sometimes. There is a musical chairs going on with the line-up. I don’t believe you can build a championship team by constantly changing the line-up and player substitutions.

Stan is slow at recognizing and exploiting mismatches or correcting problems. For instance I wondered why Gortat didn’t get in with Howard against Portland when Bass proved to be ineffective. A year ago it seemed that the Magic would make the necessary half-time adjustments and take control over the game. Not seeing it this year.

Vince came into camp this year in better shape and he plays less minutes and shoots fewer shots (albeit at a higher efficiency). He is still capable of putting big numbers up when he’s on. He is an underrated passer but for some reason the Magic can’t capitalize. He has been playing solid team defense all season. He continues to draw criticism when the Magic lose – for what? He can’t score if you don’t feed him when he’s on. He can’t contest for offensive rebounds if you send him back to defend. He can’t get assists if players don’t make open looks. He can’t get fast break points if you don’t have a fast break team. Do everyone a favour and bundle some players with Vince and make a deal.

Personally though I would ship Nelson to NO and keep Vince but what do I know? If the Magic don’t make it to the eastern finals Stan will be gone and the team will under go a major shake-up – again in my humble opinion. It’s not too late to make a move and save the season.

by consultant99 on Dec 11, 2010 1:03 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Thank you sir

Finally, a man who knows what he’s talking about.

I’ve seen basically over ~300 games with Vince and, like I’ve said over and over and over, he doesn’t really compare to any player in the NBA. Neither in terms of ability nor in terms of personality. Understand what you want from this, but Orlando isn’t using him AT ALL to the best of his abilities. And he’s “OK” with that, when he gets the ball he doesn’t force things, he passes it and wants to play into the flow of the game.

What this guy said in this post here is absolutely true, every word of it. Trust me, I can be objective even as a true VC fan. I know when he messes up, I hate it when he whines with injuries, I hate his soft fouls etc. I understand who he is though. And I’m telling you people that the Magic don’t use him right.

by Raptorel on Dec 11, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he knows what he's talking about...

When he’s pinning blame on Nelson for making a couple bad plays when he made numerous good drives and passes for easy buckets last night. Offense wasn’t the problem last night, defense was. And yes, Jameer cannot guard Williams, not at all. But who can besides like Westbrook or D-Wade?

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Dec 11, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this assertion.

The same argument made for Vince’s under-utilization could be made for Rashard, but nothing intentional. The fact is that Vince has never played for a team with as many offensive options as current Magic team. And I cannot believe that the coach or the PG deliberately deny Vince of scoring opportunities. Having that said, I grant that tactical mistakes could be made occasionally, or Jameer may overlook an open player, which are not intentional.

by Matt1325 on Dec 11, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

yes sir

you saw the other night when dwight was on the floor, VC never touched the ball, The day he was out VC ran the offense to perfection with sub par players. Now the Dwight is an offensive weapon he is starting to become an offensive liability because he is almost trying to do to much, and when he forces things the ball doesnt go in the basket and he gets the ball stripped. They need to get VC established early in th egame, run some more 2-5 in the first quarter, dont try to get him going with 3 min left in the 4th.. What is it with Stan starting 5 bench players in the 4th anyways, he knows our second unit is struggling yet at such an important moment in the game, we need our best on the floor, not our absolute worse.

by Vanek on Dec 12, 2010 8:55 AM EST up reply actions  

It's depressing to see the Nets and the Magic struggling..

That stomach virus destroyed the Magic.. LOL..

Nets Basketball.. Where 6.1 rebs a game for a 7'0 center happens..
If All else fails, Blame Avery.. But for now.. We blame Chemistry..

by silenthero07 on Dec 11, 2010 4:59 PM EST reply actions  

That was a weird defensive game,

The Jazz shot 3 pts. all day with a hand in their face and still made it- How does that happen?

who would of thought we would be arguably the greatest of all time
around here we developed such a sound down here
but duplicate it off the steel it can only be found here

by 4QB on Dec 11, 2010 5:58 PM EST reply actions  

It happens. It's a single game.

And a single game that was like a “schedule loss” to begin with. There was a graphic before the game showing how teams in the last decade or two lose like 82% of the time when playing Utah on the second night of a back-to-back coming from the West Coast. There are a lot of qualifiers there, but there was also a large sample size. It’s the same thing with Denver, especially lately when they’ve been good.

You play on the road, on a back-to-back, against a good team, playing a mile above sea level… it’s not easy. It’s certainly not easier when Kirilenko and CJ Miles are stroking it, and Williams is nailing off-balance 3’s at the end of the shot clock.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Dec 11, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

That's why i said it was weird.

who would of thought we would be arguably the greatest of all time
around here we developed such a sound down here
but duplicate it off the steel it can only be found here

by 4QB on Dec 12, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I was more of expanding on your statement, not arguing.

I know a lot of that happens here lately, so I don’t blame you for assuming that. It was certainly weird seeing some of those guys go off.

"We just want to chill" - Chris Bosh.
Proud Jameer and Rashard apologist since '07

by slickw143 on Dec 12, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Tell me how you guys like this trade, and why or why it doesn't happen...

How bout this blockbuster? Grizzlies get Iggy and Brandon Bass. Magic get Carmelo and Nene. The 76ers get Gortat, JR Smith, and Daniel Orton. Nuggets get OJ Mayo, Speights, and two 17 mill expiring deals with Vince Carter and Z. Randolph.

by shaymac on Dec 11, 2010 8:22 PM EST reply actions  

Hmmm

Orlando might do that.

Denver wouldn’t , at least not without draft picks from Philly and Memphis. They also want a young stud which they wouldn’t be getting.

Memphis…don’t know. Depends how committed they are to dumping salary. Unlikely they wouldn’t give up a draft pick, though.

Philly – no way. They’d be giving up one of their best players (and probably a draft pick) for nothing more than some decent pieces. They’ll figure (rightly) they can get a lot better deal for Iggy than that.

by eltharion_doa on Dec 11, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

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