Utah Jazz 104, Orlando Magic 94
by Evan Dunlap on Nov 10, 2010 11:17 PM EST
in 2010/2011 Recaps
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PrintThe Orlando Magic fell into their familiar pattern of relaxing after holding a big lead once again tonight, blowing an advantage that reached 18 points in the third quarter as the Utah Jazz battled back in the fourth and earned a 104-94 win. Addressing the media after the game, Magic coach Stan Van Gundy called the loss "disturbing" multiple times, and it's hard to contest that point. In the last 15 minutes of the game, Utah outscored the Magic, 51-28, which is bad enough on its own. But, as Van Gundy pointed out, the Magic faced a similar situation Sunday against Charlotte "and didn't learn a thing from it." The manner in which they lost must be frustrating, too. Utah stymied Orlando's offense by switching to a simple two-three zone defense, which the Magic were unable to solve. The Jazz essentially let the Magic own the offensive glass for the privilege of not allowing them a good initial look in the first place. Rather than attack the seams of the zone or try to involve Dwight Howard inside, Orlando passed the ball around the perimeter and took difficult jumpers, thus wasting great efforts from Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter. The starting backcourt combined for 39 points on 62.5 percent True Shooting.
| Team | Pace | Efficiency | eFG% | FT Rate | OReb% | TO Rate |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jazz | 91 | 114.9 | 53.4% | 33.8 | 20.7 | 15.5 |
| Magic | 89 | 105.3 | 50.6% | 17.7 | 38.3 | 23.5 |
| Green denotes a stat better than the team's season average; red denotes a stat worse than the team's season average. | ||||||
The Magic's trouble began late in the third quarter, which Van Gundy called "ridiculous professional basketball" on his team's part. A silly pass by Brandon Bass fueled a Jazz fast break which ended with a three-point play for Paul Millsap. On the next possession, Rashard Lewis flubbed the ball, Raja Bell picked it up, and threw it ahead to Deron Williams for a layup over Chris Duhon, who busted tail to get back in transition. And after that? Another bad pass, this one from Carter, sailed out of bounds. Utah thus had the final possession, and ended the period with a Williams three-pointer. Orlando let a 17-point lead slip to just 9, at 74-65, in 58 seconds.
But the Magic didn't confine their sloppy play to the third quarter. They got off to a very slow start due to turnovers, but of a different sort than the ones that plagued them in the third. Moving screens and borderline traveling violations hurt them in the first half, whereas lazy passing and ballhandling took them down in the second half.
Switching to a zone defense was one great adjustment Jazz coach Jerry Sloan made. The other was running the offense through Williams in the post for much of the second half. Williams didn't look to score in these post-ups against Nelson and Duhon too often, but instead used his size to read the defense, making crisp passes to cutters from the weak side. The Magic have struggled with help defense so far this season, and at least twice tonight Dwight Howard ripped into his power forward for a blown rotation during a break in play.
Van Gundy didn't say his guys lacked effort tonight, preferring instead to say they "relax" whenever they have a lead. Against any NBA team, that's a dangerous habit. But Utah is particularly troublesome due to its complex, cut-oriented offense. In the first half, with the Magic engaged and mostly sound on D, the Jazz had to settle for long two-point jumper after long two-point jumper. Though they converted those jumpers at an impressive rate--58.9 percent for the game, according to HoopData--every defense in the NBA would rather concede aa jumper to Bell than a hook to Al Jefferson. In the second? They got the ball inside, helping the starting frontline of Millsap and Jefferson erupt. A quick turn of the head from a defender off the ball can result in a Utah dunk if Williams reads the defense right, and the floor is spaced correctly.
This win says a lot about the Jazz's resilience under fire, but it also speaks to the need for Orlando to make some changes. Luckily--and this is a point Van Gundy covered after the game--the Magic have 75 games left to improve.
The starting lineup, an issue which Van Gundy seemed to have solved earlier in the day, when he announced Quentin Richardson would start at small forward against smaller teams, and Ryan Anderson at power forward against bigger teams, is suddenly in flux again; Brian Schmitz covered this topic in exceptional depth for the Orlando Sentinel. For the second time in four outings, he benched Anderson in the first quarter and did not play him again. Brandon Bass got the call in Anderson's place. In the first 90 seconds, Anderson let Millsap establish deep post position and yielded a layup, and also committed two turnovers. Sloan shrewdly cross-matched small forward Andrei Kirilenko, giving him the Anderson assignment, and the 10-year vet used his long arms to poke the ball away from Anderson twice. Van Gundy said he didn't like Anderson's "approach" at the start of games. It seems to me--and I don't know this for sure, it's only speculation--that Anderson will not see the starting lineup for quite a while.
Perhaps easily overlooked, given the impressive manner in which Utah rallied, is Orlando's poor showing at the foul line. The Magic shot 14-of-25 from the stripe. Howard continues to struggle there, as he missed 7 of his 11 attempts.
The Magic ought to have won this game, but carelessness with the ball and loose defense in the second half did them in. It might be a game they look back on at the end of the year as one they let slip away. Or it could be one they regard as a learning experience. Given Van Gundy's reputation for excellent preparation, I doubt they're so lost the next time they face a zone defense, for example. The outcome is up to them.
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I'm too mad to think too much about this game.
But I’ll say this. Utah outplayed everyone on the Magic except Vince, Jameer, and Gortat. And Stan has to figure out something better with his rotations. You cannot have two different stints in the game where neither Jameer, Dwight, Vince, or Rashard are on the bench. That’s awful.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Mental ones. And I think Stan needs to nail down his rotations sooner rather than later. Though I do recognize he didn't settle on Barnes as the 5th starter until the last day of 2009.
by Evan Dunlap on Nov 11, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Imo its hard to argue using bass in big minutes. Whether thats off the bench or starting doesn’t matter, he’s gonna be seeing 35 minutes, often.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
As long as he plays well, yes
He was clearly the best option for slowing down Millsap, which is why he got his minutes today.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
Yep
Not really a lot you can do to stop that, though. If Millsap can beast Bass, he’s going to destroy anyone on the Magic’s roster.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
He wasn't beasting bass.
The point spot kept requiring help to hold williams, Inevitable our fastest big which is bass moves up to stop the drive by williams. Thats when Millsap got his points. He never scored on Bass, it just didn’t happen- he scored when bass was switched onto deron because either the help D was not there or because the magic design the defense to handle Williams 1 on 1 which was impossible and gave an open millsap when Bass made that rotation.
Bass’s 1 on 1 D makes me drool, the two plays he guarded Lebron he wont 0-2. I know its a small sample size but in a season where things are not going as great as expected, Bass has given me something to be excited about.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Funny enough this exact scenario is what Mr. Dunlap used for the picture that goes along with this article. Williams running right past the slower, smaller, lighter, Jameer Nelson.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Bass was guarding him
I’m not talking about one on one basketball. It’s a team game. As a team, when Bass was playing PF, Millsap was destroying Orlando. That’s all that matters.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Well as a team we lost.
In order to understand the implications on an individual level we have to look at specifically what was occurring- Bass was making the right play stepping up help on Williams.
Without knowing the Magic’s defensive rotation, I can’t tell if you what millsap was scoring on was a soft spot in the magic offense or if someone else was not rotating(most likely the 3 or 5.)
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think so
Sometimes rotating’s the wrong option, and when you’re on the best offensive player on the team, that’s one of those times. Bass should have been staying on Millsap, and letting someone else cover Williams.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
The Magic have struggled with help defense so far this season, and at least twice tonight Dwight Howard ripped into his power forward for a blown rotation during a break in play.
Nuff said.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Nov 12, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Other players played the 4 with howard.
by David Polega on Nov 12, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Stan had a point in this after game ITW though even if the quesion was about Lewis.
It’s not really a rotaion problem when things go wrong half way to the second half and you’re up 18 which was the Bobcats scenario all over again. SVG looked devastated BTW, he said that “Williams kicked our @ss in the forth”.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Stan really didn't look good in that presser.
I’m not just talking about being grumpy, that’s a given. He just seemed unhealthy to me. I hope he’s doing all right.
The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy
Evan can you get Lewis another shipment of roids??
I really like what I am seeing from Dwight. We have to keep going to him, with the way he is playing he is maybe leading MVP candidate. Disturbed about the defense in the 2nd half but I believe Stan will get that figured out. We can’t defend the perimeter which isn’t good and this will not improve.
Disturbing to watch...
When Utah started it’s run I had the feeling it would continue and that we would lose. We don’t handle comeback runs well and never have. Panic seems to set in. A lot of that has to do with passion, drive and heart. Those things are not our strong suit. Perhaps if we had an on court leader, which we clearly don’t, it would help. Jameer doesn’t speak up, Lewis is emotionless, Carter is mentally fragile and Dwight just quotes basketball clisheas over and over. It’s something we have, and will continue to struggle with. And during Playoff time, it’s the problem that could send us home early.
by Matty B on Nov 10, 2010 11:51 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Not playing defense will send us home early in the playoffs
passion, drive, and heart are over used cliches
Never trust a fart
by AB's triple double on Nov 11, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
over used perhaps
but lacking nevertheless!!
Absolutely true but...
It is something we lack. When the going gets tough we have lots of guys who panic and fold. The cliches I mentioned, although cliches, are much needed on this team. They are cliches when they are SAID and not DONE. What I really wanted to say is who has the balls to man up and stop a scoring drought. Who wants to step up? Who wants to shut runs like that down? A lot of that is of course coaching and schemes but the players do have to gather up their nutz and get it done. We don’t really have those guys but perhaps we could trade for at least one of those guys.
It's not passion
Heart or drive which stops a scoring drought, it’s putting the ball in the hoop. It’s not passion, heart or drive which stops a big opposition run down, it’s help defense and rebounding.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
Listen
Thanks for the simplistic breakdown. Yes scoring a basket does stop a drought and yes, getting a rebound and playing defense helps but you have to WANT IT!!! If our guys are in scared ass panic mode it won’t happen. If Rashard is sleeping, that WON’T happen. Are you blind. Some of you are far to simple minded. It starts with the drive and passion to get it done. That’s followed by executing it. Got that? Didn’t realize I’d have to break my comment down to child like simplicity.
by Matty B on Nov 11, 2010 8:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You don't need to break it down at all
It’s already reached child like simplicity, I’m afraid.
How much you WANT IT has nothing to do with performance – execution does. Kobe Bryant doesn’t win because he WANTS IT more, he wins because he’s better. Ray Allen doesn’t hit clutch three pointers because he WANTS IT, he hits them because he’s better.
Sure, maybe you tell a five year old he just has to want it so bad and all his dreams can be achieved, but the NBA isn’t filled with children. It comes down to who is better. Who’s more composed, who’ll work harder, who’ll execute under pressure. You can call it desire, but it’s really just a different type of ability.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 12, 2010 3:59 AM EST up reply actions
Boston taking it to Miami tonight...
Guess why? As much as I hate them they have a LOT of heart, passion and FIRE. They want to embarrass the Heat. Crush them. They’re angry. They step up to the challenge. We back down. We struggle with big runs. We have a hard time recovering. It starts with fire. That fire leads to a basket to stop a streak. That fire leads to defensive intensity. That’s what we lack and that what I’m saying. It’s far to simple to just say. “putting the ball in the hoop stops a drought”. That’s baby math. You’ve got to WANT to do it. Do we have that guy? No… we don’t. Clear?
I see YOU have lots of fire.
But, no need for the demeaning tone.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Nov 11, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's sad that you can't make your point without resorting to petty insults.
You’re also typing in caps and using short sentences, which makes me think you’re yelling.
And I also don’t think that anyone could have the insight into the psyche of the Magic that you seem to possess, unless they were connected to the team.
Wait a second . . . are you Stan Van Gudy?!?!?!?!?!
(this post is mostly a joke)
it will send us home early ........
at the beginning of the season I thought Howard with his more serious demeanor would develop into a leader on the floor but I don’t think he has what it takes to be the leader we need – great player but not a leader of men!
We need to find within or trade for a real leader or we will continue to get our ass kicked by the better teams and for sure in the playoffs!!
watching every game
and it is just my opinion – could be wrong but I don’t think so.
The Magic were ahead 74-56 with 1:36 remaining in the third quarter
…after Rashard Lewis’s three pointer.
I looked at the play-by-play on nba.com to come up with each team’s stats for the rest of the game.
From that point on, in the game’s final 13:36, the Jazz outscored the Magic 48-20. The Jazz connected on 17 of their final 24 shots (70.8%), including 4 of 5 on three pointers (80%), and were also 10 of 12 from the free throw line (83.3%), with only one turnover in the final 13:36.
Meantime, during that same span, the Magic made only 5 of their final 21 shots (23.8%), including 2 of 12 on three pointers (16.7%), and 8 of 11 from the free throw line. They missed 10 of 11 threes until Lewis’s meaningless three with 26 seconds left. The Magic committed eight turnovers during this span.
Deron Williams took the game over with his tremendous play. In the final 13:36, he scored 22 points on 6 of 8 shooting, including 3 of 3 on three pointers, and 7 of 8 free throw shooting, along with 6 assists.
How dominant was Williams? He outscored the Magic himself 22-20 in the game’s final 13:36.
Incredibly, Howard did not officially attempt a field goal since the 9:27 point of the third quarter for the rest of the game (just the two he was fouled on), and was 1 of 4 from the free throw line during that time. That’s a 21:27 span.
For the Magic to attempt 12 threes on their final 21 shots and stop feeding the ball to Howard is a sure recipe for losing a big lead.
Great effort by the Jazz, and they deserve lots of credit for not giving up after trailing by 18 points, especially after the exhausting effort the previous night against Miami.
"Bear Down, Chicago Bears"...
Chicago Blackhawks... 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Champions
Orlando Magic... 2009 NBA Eastern Conference Champions
by Mike from Illinois on Nov 11, 2010 12:02 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Consistency.
Need someone who can score consistently. Without it, stuff like this will always happens. Melo at 40% shooting contested jumpers would have been a ride to victory closing the game tonight.
And Rec’d btw, nice work on the stats.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
Not if the Magic couldn't pass him the ball properly, but I get your point, I think.
by Evan Dunlap on Nov 11, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
You get it- a “semi” efficient ball user can keep a team afloat when its struggling as long as its consistently semi efficient.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
There will be options, lets just hope one of them is a good one. Just give me one hard working perimeter scorer that isn’t 5’6.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Vince scored 20 on 17 possessions.
Jameer scored 19 on 14 possessions.
That’s 39 points out of 31 possessions.
You want average offense to make up the rest of the possessions? Lewis scored 16 on 16 possessions. Dwight 14 on 12. Bass 14 on 13.
We don’t need more average offense. That’s 72 shots worth of average to above-average offense, yielding 83 points. You can win with that.
What killed this team was to a lesser extent the 21 turnovers, and to a greater extent the 60.2% true shooting allowed. The TOs were largely a fluke — so many travel calls. But you can’t allow 60% true shooting to the other team and expect to win. It’s as simple as that.
(And the Magic generally don’t. Personally, I’m okay with chalking this up to bad luck and one-time poor execution… remember all the contested 15-18 footers the Jazz were making? And maybe Jameer’s injury.
I honestly don’t feel as though defense of all things is an area the Magic need to worry about because of one bad game. We’ve seen enough to know that the Magic can play defense.)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
The offense was really only an issue at the end of the game.
Absolutely, the issue in the game was not taking care of the ball. Also, I think we needed guys that would get to the FT line and convert in order to take the wind out of the sails of the Jazz when they were making their rally.
The intensity has to go up, up! Not down...UP! -Stan Van Gundy
They just needed to slow the game down.
Nobody ever allowed 39 points in a quarter without losing focus on transition defense. If they got back after a miss, they might’ve lost a couple offensive rebounds… but if they get back after misses, they wouldn’t ever give up a 39-point quarter again. There simply isn’t enough time in 12 minutes.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Couldn't ask for a better summary
That’s what “leadership” and “go to scorer” is all about. Deron put that team on his back.
Williams, and other perimeter players, have an advantage over Dwight in the team MVP race because guards have the ball in their hands much more than Howard.
Seems like when the defense gets tight and things are on the line we find it too difficult to get Dwight the ball. Guys start jacking up prayers from the 3-point line.
Poor passing combined with Dwight’s poor FT shooting means we’re in trouble at the end of close games because we either a) can’t get the ball to our best player or b) he won’t convert if he does get it (fouls).
by Hoop Dreams on Nov 11, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
He's a 59% free throw shooter.
1.18 points a possession will keep pace with any comeback, especially given that the opponent can’t fast-break out of a FT attempt.
If we didn’t need to worry about turnovers, Dwight on the block could stop ANY comeback.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
hey, you'll watch the heat/Cs game? Squid put up a thread
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
I might!
Got some stuff to do at 6:30 or so, but I’m home tonight. Might as well.
(I hope the Magic’s staff are watching too.)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
In the Utah game that would work but not in a tighter contest.
We will lose a FT contest if it’s Deron WIlliams vs Dwight Howard, for example.
But the other team only has so many players to give fouls.
I agree with you in principle that certainly Dwight needs to improve his FT shooting to be a more reliable late-game option. But it might be unrealistic at this point.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Great job Mike
D-Will is awesome, but I thought the team did a good job containing him the first 3 quarters. He’s just a great player that was ballin at the end.
"A man has got to have a code." -Bunk, Season 1; Omar, Season 4.
melo
I can never understand the amount of melo hate on this blog. I’m guessing it is due to bias, emotions and stat junkies gone mad. Melo on this magic team, say in place of rashard or vince, would turn this team into the championship favorites over night. The problem with this team is the same reason why its so dominant in the regular season, it lacks a dominant presence on offense. Everything is spread out. Dominant forces raise their games when the stakes rise. They give their team focus, structure and confidence in crucial situations. In the regular season this is a benefit overall, but as the stakes rise, it becomes a problem. With 2min to go in a playoff game, a guy like melo can raise his efficiency with increased effort, desire and grit. The magic are missing this and an eternal loser like vince is not the solution.
by plyka on Nov 11, 2010 1:03 AM EST via mobile reply actions
agree, Im not stat-head, but I think we need a true, go-to scorer on this squad
…but just like Swami said above: "Only problem is you cant just go out and “get” a Melo"
ORL★NDO, our time will come.
No, he wouldn't
He’s better than Carter, but not by as much as you think. And he needs high volume, on a team which already struggled to get enough shots for all it’s scorers.
And the thing with Anthony is that he doesn’t raise his efficiency with increased effort, desire or grit. He drops his efficiency with lazy, bad shots, ball hogging and a complete lack of any effort whatsoever defensively. You think the Nuggets got destroyed by the freaking Pacers because Carmelo Anthony was showing effort, desire or grit?
People don’t rate ‘Melo because they see a guy with all the talent in the world, but who just wants to score as many points as he can, and screw his teammates, and screw defense, and screw efficiency, and screw winning. He’s the classic me-first, post-Jordan NBA player – the current Allan Iverson, the current Tracy McGrady. Guys who just wants theirs, regardless of what happens.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
well said, I see your point
honestly though, (and I have tweeted Evan and Eddy this on many occasion with no response ={ ) realistically, what star/borderline star can we acquire via trade that is “attainable” with our resources and can be traded by their tem? Iggy? Granger?
ORL★NDO, our time will come.
I don't think there are any
If Otis thought he could improve his team by making a trade, he would. But he knows there’s little out there that would make a difference. Neither Granger nor Iggy are obtainable, not as long as the Pacers and 76ers are in the playoff hunt. We could probably get Richard Hamilton but I wouldn’t touch him with a bargepole. Arenas – same deal.
Anthony will move for a better deal than anything we could offer, and Paul won’t be available until the Hornets are absolutely sure he won’t sign a new deal. Nash is a loyal team guy.
I haven’t seen any other remotely realistic rumours.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
I don't see any alternatives better than Vince, at this point, on the trade market
And Vince has played well this year, including the preseason.
And was good tonight
We were beaten by Deron Williams and Paul Millsap, not Raja Bell.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
that's just not true
I guess this argument comes down to 1 major difference of opinion. Most stat guys, it seems to me, see no difference between a playoff game and a regular season game. They seem to think that how a player plays in a regular season game is the same in how he will play in a playoff game or when the stakes rise. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Take Melo for instance, you’re taking his regular season performances and assuming that he will perform in the same manner when the stakes rise. Let’s say in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the NBA finals. This just isn’t true. The amount of effort that Melo would give in the 10th minute of the 1st quarter in a regular season game is not the same as the amount of effort he would give in the final minutes of game 7. It’s just not. For a player like Melo, he can’t attack the basket on every play in the regular season. He just doesn’t have the energy and he would be risking wear and tear not to mention injury. But when the stakes rise, it makes sense for him to risk this injury, wear and tear, by attacking the basket on every play. In these high stakes moments, you will need to double team Melo, or he will attack the basket and get to the free throw line.
He is a dominant force.
The second part of your post is simply asinine. I mean, now you’re getting into reading people’s minds. “He’s the classic me-first, post-Jordan NBA player – the current Allan Iverson, the current Tracy McGrady. Guys who just wants theirs, regardless of what happens.” This is just BS. You have no idea what is important to Melo. This seems to me more hook line and sinker on the media propaganda than any meaningful analysis. What evidence do you actually have to back this up?
And i’m not sure where you guys continue getting off saying that melo is not efficient. Based on what? In the playoffs over the last 2 years he has posted a true shooting % of 56.4% in both years. TS% is the complete measure of efficiency according to the stat junkies. So how is this not efficient? Just as a comparison, Kevin Durant in last year’s playoffs posted a TS% of 49.9%. In the playoffs you have much tougher competition, and that’s why you SHOULD see a drop off in efficiency. However, with Melo you see a rise in efficiency. In the regular season over the last 2 years he has posted: 53.2% and 54.8%. This year in limited games he is around 58%.
So basically, Melo HAS increased his efficiency in the playoffs, this is a FACT. Again, despite having tougher competition in the playoffs, a slower pace and tougher defense, his efficiency has gone up from 53.2% to 56.4 and from 54.8% to 56.4%.
Proof never stops plyka though.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Nov 11, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing stops his walls of text.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I kinda missed him, given the "talent" we got around here lately
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
So you're saying Melo had a pretty good month a couple times.
Well, lucky for him.
I’m pretty sure that when a 54% shooter shoots 56% for a 10-15 game stretch, that’s well within the statistical margin of error. 54% shooters shoot 56% all the time. Sometimes, a man will shoot 54% for an entire year, and then 56% for the entire next year… all with no seeming change to his abilities or his team’s structure. Golly and/or gosh!
Meanwhile, back in the real world, studies have repeatedly found that this isn’t a trend that carries over from year to year.
Players who outperform their regular season averages in the playoffs are no more likely to outperform their regular-season averages in the next season’s playoffs.
Players who underperform in the playoffs are no more likely to underperform the next year.
I know it’s all cute and fun to act as though the outcome of a basketball game is some kind of existential referendum on the Nature of People, but we’re not doing that here. We’re talking real things here. And if you don’t like it, feel free to go back to the kids’ table.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
by 3.3seconds on Nov 11, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's a volume scorer, but that's about the only thing he does well.
And I take issue with the “eternal loser” label with Carter (or anyone, really). He’s lost because he’s been on bad teams, not because of some invisible losing aura that makes his team worse, or whatever.
In your honest opinion...
what star/borderline star can we acquire via trade that is "attainable" (with our resources and can be traded by their team) who would fit best with DHoward? Iggy? Granger? Nash now?
ORL★NDO, our time will come.
I think Nash is an option... great shooter and great passer
Horrible defender…
If you can live with his defense and not give up too much to get him, then it’s OK with me.
What on earth could we give the Suns?
We don’t have anything they’d want, and Nash is perfectly happy running out his career there.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
He's pretty exclusively a fast-break guy, though.
And the Magic aren’t a fast-break team.
Even if he were available, he’d require us to either completely overhaul our offense, or use him against his strengths.
(Anyway, I’m not okay with mortgaging the team’s future for a 1-2 season rental.)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
I truly believe he lost in the past because he gives up on himself
He has this aura of self doubt, so he doesn’t take over like he’s capable of doing.
Except...
…when he tries to “take over like he’s capable of doing”, we end up with the Carter of November-January 2009-10… a 40% shooter hogging 20 shots a game.
And when he plays within the offense, we end up with a 60% true shooting guy who gives us 16-18 points a game and helps find high-percentage shots for his teammates.
I’ll take an “aura of self-doubt” in order to get that second guy.
(What is an “aura of self-doubt”, anyway? I’m envisioning one of two things: an understanding that one is not always the best scoring option, or (alternately) a mummy’s curse. Has Vince touched any mummies lately?)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
yes, supreme in the regular season
call me when he shows up in the playoffs and leads a team to anything.
Well
Lindsey Hunter is the oldest player in the NBA, and I don’t remember the last time he touched Vince. Maybe he got too close to Dr. J in the off-season? He looks a little mummified lately.
My god!
I’ve just figured out why Jerry Sloan looks so old!
(Did you hear them interview him yesterday? The man sounds like Johnny Cash.)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
lol...i remember having this debate with you guys last year
Actually it was in the offseason last year when Vince was traded for, before he had played a single game for the Magic. I believe there was a fan post: “is vince a loser.” I was arguing that of course he is and always has been a loser, and of course most Magic fans disagreed at that time. It was everyone against me. Now, if we had the same debate, I’m willing to bet at least 25% of Magic fans would agree if not more, that Vince is a loser and always has been. The argument at the time was that Vince was never on a good team and never had a big man. Well, he got both last year and what happened? Destroyed in the playoffs. Thus this excuse for Vince no longer holds any water.
So, how did Vince lose the Magic this game?
Go ahead. I’m interested in hearing exactly what you’re trolling about here.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
No but melo woulda kept the magic at 40% shooting holding the lead till dwight was able to come back in.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
because Melo never never has a bad shooting night?
Never trust a fart
by AB's triple double on Nov 11, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
efjqvkjiugmaejkv! Nothing worse than allowing the other team to beat you.
Magic been playing bad 4rth quarters so far, they are 25th in the league in margin in that quarter while Utah are number 1.
I hope this will not turn into a habbit. I like a energy start in a game but if you’ll end up TO like crazy (21) it doesn’t do much good. Mike said it best, give a lot of credit to Utah, many here were doubting this one, learn and move on. The second unit (I consider Bass a starter in this one given the min.) was 5 guys with 11 points so I would leave VC alone with the trade talk and rather hope that guys like JJ will get their shooting back and continue to say that we will need offfense from Duhon down the line.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Or defense
Or passing. Or hustle. Right now, pretty much anything from Duhon other than sucking would be a big step forward.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions
I don't dislike him that much yet, but it might be a question of time.
People say that we don’t need offense from our second PG but J-Will proved in his bad half last year that one wrong. And I don’t say to give Williams more min. even if I like watching him, Magic need Duhon in a half court offensive set.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Player Efficiency Rating
Of 7.1 through 6 games.
Just sayin’.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 2:49 AM EST up reply actions
You with me wanting to see some more experiment minutes running the point like heinrich used to do for the bulls when rose was out?
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
JJ's been worse so far.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Vince Carter
I would have liked to see Carter get more shot attempts towards the end of the game and be our closer..I thought he was doin well tonite and should have brought the ball up every time the last 3 mins or so…instead we saw rashard shoot an air ball 3 and other horrible shot attempts
and as for Melo
while I do agree he does not play great defense in denver, i would think SVG would be able to influence him to play better defense or else he would be an outcast to the team.. i dont think anybody really plays defense on Denver really.
And its not like Rashard is that good of a defender anyways at the SF position
They're middling, overall
18th/30 defensive rating, 17th/30 points allowed. Think they were in the top ten in both before they got Pacer’d, though.
Anthony has the best individual rating on the team, amusingly.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 2:47 AM EST up reply actions
I think the zone defense killed us
They denied Howard well with the zone (coupled with the fact that Dwight got into foul trouble and he was frustrated as hell, so he kind of started to rush things) so I think the Magic lost themselves when the Jazz started to play zone. It’s like everything in the offensive playbook was made for a man to man defense, and so when the zone came in, they started to play random basketball.
and that is what the team should learn from this game.
When the opponent exposes you like that, it’s up to a good team not to allow it the next time.
E.D. credited the team with read and react offense in one of the pre-season games (can’t remember which one), I would love to see that more often and it’s not a one player “go to guy” thing, it’s just playing team basketball. Again, lots of credit to Sloan.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
This was a colossal tactical blunder by a coach which I admire for his preparation smarts but not necessarily for game time adjustments.
18 points lead that late in the game should have just about sufficed to lead the Magic to victory, but the coach did not read the shift by Utah well. When the offense led by Duhon went bad, it was clear that the lead needs to be protected by:
1 – Improving defense – Pietrus should have been considered not Richardson; and
2 – Improving offense by inserting either Jameer in sooner or opt for JWill, who – at present time – does a better job of running the team than Duhon. Duhon needs to be put to task of adjusting his approach to the game (i.e., shoot occasionally).
BTW, taking Ryan out this early in the game would not go well with the young player’s psyche. The coach should have known Ryan’s strength and weaknesses prior to the game so that he would not have inserted him in the starting line-up in the first place.
by Matt1325 on Nov 11, 2010 9:12 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
This
I was shocked when Ryan Anderson was pulled out after a few mistake. Didn’t give him a chance to get his rhythm back. Bass played well though.
I hate Pau Gasol!
Matt is right on
Can add a couple more to Matt’s list. The Magic team needs to learn to keep their mouth shut including the coach. Need to make their free throws and the Ryan and Pietrus decision will really bring the team together.
Agree on all points, pretty much.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Well, right now, Rashard, JJ, Duhon, Richardson, are all struggling.
So far, our most consistently good players have been Dwight, Vince, Jameer, Bass, and Gortat. Finally, Ryan, Peaches, and J-Will have not gotten solid minutes to make an impact.
What this tells me is that we are getting little from the 3 spot and practically nothing from the reserve backcourt. Why not just let Peaches and J-Will play? I know MP has been pretty bad too, but lets see what he gives us with 12-18 minutes a game, can’t be much worse than JJ or Q…
Just to be clear, I am probably being sarcastic.
It’s like Bass is a top 5 player on this team or something.
Oh wait I said that before the season started.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
We need a trade.
Lewis is not doing it for us and Carter will quit on us. Neither one of them has this “We must Win” gameface like I see on Howard, Bass and Gortat.
I see looks of doubt on Carter, Lewis and sometimes on Nelson. Granted, it’s early in the season, But the Celtics, Lakers and now even the Jazz have this look of certainty and must win game mentality. Really, the Majority of those teams step out on the court like they’re going to war! We step out smiling and questioning..
This
We are too deep of a team which should – and would – allow for some experimentation with mixed results. Vince is playing fine, but Lewis, Anderson, Pietrus, J.J., and Richardson have all been affected by experimentations which could have caused inconsistency in their games or the team’s performance.
zzzzzzzzzzz
When someone comes up with a realistic trade, that both teams would accept, that actually improves the Magic, call me.
by eltharion_doa on Nov 11, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Chris Duhon?
I really want to know whats been up with Chris Duhon, I know he’s not a All-Star player, but he seems to be really struggling with the Magic system. I think SVG had him in the 3rd quarter last night about 5min too long. He doesn’t play great D and his offense is nowhere to be seen. I really hope he can get this turned around, because as of so far I would rather have the Anthony Johnson/J-Will combo off the bench. I cringe whenver Jameer goes to the bench knowing that the game will not be played as smoothly once Duhon enters.
I think
More experimenting with JJ at the point is in order- in a combo guard position like Heinrich plays.
There’s doubts about his defense at point, but there’s no way he’s going to worse than Duhon has been doing and leaves a “should be if he wasn’t playing for the magic” knockdown 3 point shooter at the point with a high basketball IQ.
Let JJ have the back up point spot till he messes it I say.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Live by the 3, die by the 3...
64 of 193(33.2%) 3pt shooting thus far…Our opponents are even out shooting us behind the line: 44 of 117 for 37.6%.
SVG and his staff really need to consider an alternative, because while the inside-outside ball is working well, the shots are not falling. Maybe this is a funk the team is in, but when the “funk” starts creeping toward the halfway point of the season it will be too late. The Magic need options when the 3 point scheme goes cold and right now they are not doing anything but continually putting up bricks.
Bass at the top of they key has been a pleasant relief from our “deadly” 3 point shooters clanking shot after shot.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he sure helped us avoid that 26-2 run by the Jazz.
Stop harping on Bass. He’s not the Messiah of the team.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
The Magic have struggled with help defense so far this season, and at least twice tonight Dwight Howard ripped into his power forward for a blown rotation during a break in play.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Nov 12, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
other 4’s besides bass were on the floor with howard
by David Polega on Nov 12, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Uhhh we were 5-1 shooting 31% from 3 coming into the game.
We actually shot the ball from deep well last night, and we lost. Not because of the 3, because of turnovers, poor ball movement, and poor defense. Allowing 48 points in less than 14 minutes is atrocious.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Funny to me that when the team loses (despite Carter playing well) people here
want Vince shipped out the next morning. If they can’t point to actual statistical failures, we hear about mysterious, intangible forces—an ‘aura of self-doubt’ (what color would that be??), or better yet the curse of the ‘eternal loser’…If anyone here can really see eternally into the future, can u at least enlighten us with something more significant that VC’s championship prospects!
Vince is good, just not good enough to be the go to scorer we’re missing. If we can get a go-to scorer and keep Vince, I’m all for it. Until then we will win and lose games based on dwigh’s foul trouble- the offense is a mess without him in.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
i like the idea of jj running the point
just because a player is good in another system (Duhon) dosent mean he will be good in another system just like hedo was good in our system the raptors and suns thing he can do the same on their team
man, soon enough someone will suggest that Bass must play the point
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Don't be so quick to discount the option of Bass running the point
We could use a tall point guard and Bass could always post up the opposing point guard.
Proudly mocking the Disciples of Panic (some Magic fans) since October 29, 2010.
of course + he can drible between the legs and pass to JJ's head as he cuts to the basket or even throw a lob
over Dwight (and that one requires special PG skillz). Jameer can rest his feet, we got our man.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
he did try to lead the fastbreak yesterday, someone called it BASSbreak.
and we all know what happened.
Heinrich does it fine with a similar skill set.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
He played the 2 alongside rose, slid over to the point when rose sat.
It’s amazing how rigid you see the game of basketball being.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Has played it in very limited minutes on our team.
But thats kind of my point- You see things so rigidly that if it hasn’t been done in large amounts it must mean it cannot be done.
Hinrich and Redick are the exact same height and weight, and both have a very similar skillset- with redick being the better shooter while Hinrich is slightly quicker.
You honestly think Redick would be a worse option than Duhon? Because thats the alternative to this reasonable suggestion that Redick pick up some back up pg minutes.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
The reason it hasnt been done is because there are better options. JJ is a shooter. He should not be running the offense at all.
And yes, I do think Redick would be a worse option than Duhon. The potential for Duhon to be a much better point guard than JJ could be is very very high. You’re essentially saying our coaches are bad for not considering JJ as a point guard, which is asinine. If they thought he could do it more effectively than the players we have at the position now, I am sure they would try it. They haven’t, so I will trust their judgement over randomblogposter456’s opinion.
Again, you’re only argument is status quo. Hasn’t been done so can’t, you’re just giving more reasons why you think thats true, but that doesn’t make it any less of a logical fallacy.
Randbomblogposter is the category you are in as well, and your opinion ought to be able to formulate outside of “I’ve seen it so I know it.”
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
You’re only contribution to the site since I have been here was to take the negative side of every comment I make and humorously, ending up incorrect about the things you most vehemently and angrily objected to(pimarily how good Bass was.)
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
So you’re saying a 1 can play a 2 spot, but its impossible the other way around?
Do you even realize how incredibly hard headed that is?
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Do you remember JJ dribbling around last playoffs ?
The guy is not a ball handler, he’s a freakin’ shooting guard.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Did you remember Duhon?
Cuz he looks way worse, and can’t shoot the trey.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
we were talking about JJ here
I won’t continue this conversation with you but you should chill a bit on how you talk to people. Go ahead and turn this into another of your pointless dialogues if it makes you happy.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Chill on how I talk to people?
Cuz i said he was hard headed? I think he’d agree with me.
My point is JJ did not look any less natural at the point than JJ. Not that JJ should be our starting pg, just pick up back up minutes. This isn’t some extreme view. I honestly beginning to believe people respond so negatively to me because since I use Facebook to log in it puts my picture as my avatar.
I do my best to keep the argument on topic and logical.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
“Contribution” Thats a joke.
You should work for fox news.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
no it was the "white people" comment on the game thread
@3.3 then “insane and out of touch with basketball” to some other guy that got me pissed. Normaly I wouldn’t even bother talkin to you, it’s only by respect to this blog that I don’t tell to…
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
Look at my picture, I’m white myself- I don’t hide behind anything I’m saying.
And that guy said he would not take Nash on this team- That is out of touch with basketball in my opinion.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Who said Nash wouldn't be great on this team?
Because they are wrong.
I don’t we have what it takes to get a reasonable deal done with Phoenix, in regards to their needs/wants to trade for him anyways.
Wouldn’t want Nash
Jameer plays better D than the old man. Also, Phoenix would want too much for a 37 year old who can play 35 mins a game.
by UCF Knight and Red Sox on Nov 11, 2010 8:20 AM CST
I replied “You’re completely insane and out of touch with basketball if you would pass on nash for Meer.”
Which I admit may be a little over done but mostly accurate way of responding to it.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Duhon can shoot.
Look at his historical stats. He’s always been a decent three-point shooter — he can’t do much else as a scorer, but he can shoot the 3 at a decent rate.
And yes, the position of point guard requires skills that the position of shooting guard does not. Mental skills, mostly — an approach to the game. Court vision.
There is nothing a shooting guard needs to do mentally that a point guard has not been trained in doing.
This is, like, the basic basics of basketball. I can’t believe that you are legitimately so ignorant about the sport that you need this explained to you.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Players are capable of playing multiple positions, you are aware of that right?
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
David give it up.
You’re not going to convince the majority here that JJ is a better PG option on this team. Have your opinion. That’s fine. We’ll agree that Duhon is struggling a bit….but, frankly, so is JJ.
No way Redick can stay in front of 1st or 2nd string PGs on defense in this league. So, who do you put on the floor with him to guard the 1?
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Nov 11, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
JJ guarding Westbrook or Rose or CP3 makes me giggle with sadness.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
all i ever said is i wanted to see it, and based on his skillset have no reason to automatically predict eminent failure.
I think basketball iq can carry a player at pg, and the shortcomings there after he shares with duhon.
by David Polega on Nov 12, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
Players with the skill set, the mentality and the experience to play positions can play those positions. JJ has at most one of those things, and I don’t know if he even has that.
Running the point is a very specific skill. I know you don’t understand skill-based basketball, but it’s not like a SF playing SG.
Half of running the point has nothing to do with anything you learn while you’re playing other position on the floor.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
I said Hinrich can play the 2 spot because he is a good shooter and a good defender.
I did not say that under no circumstance could a shooting guard never play point guard. JJ Redick is not and won’t ever be a point guard, get over it.
JJ cannot play the point because _.
Fill it in. In the mean time, the fact that he has played point for this team, is the same height and weight as another similar skill set combo guard, is better shooter than Duhon or Williams as well as being taller… Give me the opinion that it is something that should be experimented with more.
He’s not going to create from the point guard spot, but neither are our other 2 back ups. But he can make smart decisions with the basketball and hopefully knock down the open looks he gets/
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Duhon IS an experiment
The JJ experiment might work at times, but why not give the Duhon experiment some time to work? Are we ready to say that signing him as Jameer’s backup is a failure?
by Hoop Dreams on Nov 11, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
While you need
only my comments to be able to post!
Perfect!
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Your only valid points have been that Bass is awful and Jameer Nelson is the perfect point guard.
I’ll take my track record over yours for predicating basketball any day.
You seem to have absolutely 0 understanding of on the court basketball, if you played past highschool I would be in complete shock because you seem to not understand anything about basketball except what happens off the court.
You assume anything you have not seen is an automatic negative answer, you have no ability to predict or analyze anything outside statistics(which eveyrone including myself agrees is a useful tool- I’m just showing you why I think you don’t understand basketball itself) and you bring 0 unique thoughts to the conversation- All while being more rigid than Popovich’s player atittude paradigm.
You talk your head off, but I seriously doubt you’d have a clue about correct body positioning while playing basketball, what is actually involved in fighting for a rebound, what it feels like to dribble into someone or passing to a cutter without seeing him.
These aren’t thing you know- because its obvious you are not a basketball player. So sorry If I don’t assume your opinion on it is the gold standard of validity.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
I know you just post to annoy me (and it works because almost everything you say is wrong)
But I have never said that Bass is awful, nor that Jameer is the perfect point guard.
No more than I said Bass was the goat.
Only requires validation when I exaggerate and not when you do it to 100th degree?
I once again, omit your standard of what is acceptable.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
“Yes, but myself as randomblogposter has actually contributed to this site things other than “ZOMGBASSISDAGOAT!”"
You cna do it but i can’t?
All I ever said is that Bass was our best option at the 4 and the 5th best player on the team.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Then by that logic so is yours.
“Your only valid points have been that Bass is awful and Jameer Nelson is the perfect point guard.” Is obviously an over statement of what actually believe- though its not as extreme as assuming I think Bass is the goat when I have only said he’s the fifth best player on the magic,
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Not yet.
But I think it is trending in that direction.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Heinrich is a combo guard
He’s got legitimate PG skills and instincts.
It’s not hard headed to say JJ lacks the ball handling skills to play point.
by Hoop Dreams on Nov 11, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
It is to say definitively so when JJ has played the point- And even worse considering how horrendously Duhon has played. Because thats whose minutes you’re trying to defend right now.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
He has probably played a total of less than 100 minutes at point guard in the 4 seasons he has been here.
When compared to the 3800+ other minutes he has on the court, I am pretty sure they don’t consider him a point guard.
I’m sure they don’t as well, which is why I’m calling for experimenting more with him there- particularly on nights duhon looks like a wounded duck.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
"They don't consider him a point guard"
- David Polega “So lets play him at point guard”
THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
Why not?
Plenty didn’t consider Lewis a 4, but we won the east with Lewis at the 4.
Please understand that things are more fluid than you’re clinging to and the responsibilities of each position change based on whose playing it.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
They played Lewis at the 4 out of necessity because we literally had no one else on the roster to play the position at the time.
Tony Battie was going to be the starting power forward that year but suffered a torn rotator cuff.
So it was a band-aid?
Cuz thats all i’m saying JJ would be- not his permanent or best position. Just a band aid for duhon.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
When we drafted JJ I thought he would be Jameer's back-up
That’s usually what happens to short two guards—teams try to turn them into point guards or “combo guards.”
With all the problems we’ve had at back-up point, and as much as we all recognize JJ needs more playing time, I would think we would have given him a shot at backing up Jameer—if he had the skills—instead of bringing in PG after PG to play behind Nelson.
I’m not sure it’s a case of anybody being rigid. Seems like JJ would have had a shot at playing point if he had proven capable of doing so.
by Hoop Dreams on Nov 11, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
And maybe thats true. I just want to see it- if its bad of course I wouldn’t keep wanting it. I just want to see more of how the offense works with a high bball IQ 3 point shooter at the top.
Its not exactly new stuff though I admit the situations were different. Steve Kerr was way less atheltically gifted than JJ but I don’t think anyone screamed murder when he started and certainly wouldn’t at the thought that he soak up some back up minutes.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
He also played in san antonio- won 2 rings there.
But my only sentiment is that positions are not as rigid as you seem to be trying to impress into the conversation. Would he play the pg spot different than meer or duhon? He most certainly would be less assertive and mostly get the ball into someone down low. But I don’t believe this is an automatic recipe for disaster- in fact I think it would work well.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yep because the only way I could reasonably believe experiments with JJ at the point is an automatic failure is to be smarter than the entire Magic coaching staff and assume you should make a call to stan.
Or… Experimenting with JJ using back-up point minutes could maybe not be considered blasphemy. it
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing at all.
I’m just wanting to see it tried, thats all.
If I saw it epicly fail in practice, I’d be less optimistic about the results.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Ok so my argument is I think it should be experimented with.
Your argument is that we shouldn’t because you assume they already experiment enough with it in practice.
1. You’re partially agreeing that the experiment ought to have taken place.
2. My only assertion is that I want to see what redick looks like at the point. Nothing I can’t see changes that sentiment.
2.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
They've had JJ at PG in practice, but only when Williams was out (rehab) and Nelson/Duhon needed a breather.
He also played, like, 2 minutes there in the fourth quarter of a preseason blowout.
Two years ago, prior to the Alston deal but after Jameer went down, he and Courtney Lee sometimes brought the ball up when Anthony Johnson was on the bench, but Hedo ran the offense.
J.J.‘s a good passer for his position and doesn’t make many mistakes, but he can’t play PG in this league.
It’s weird you say everything contrary to your final conclusion.
At the very least steve kerr did and won rings with 2 different teams. Are you saying JJ Redick could not possibly aspire to be as good as Steve Kerr?
I don’t get how you can be so absolute on topics that are clearly not.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
As the examples illustrate, he's a last-resort PG for when everyone else is either fatigued or hurt.
The only argument for him being last resort is that he is used as a last resort? That’s not an example of why using him more wouldn’t work, it says “he is because he is.”
Sometimes all a pg needs to be is a player that doesn’t make many mistakes and can hit the 3 a la Steve Kerr- particularly if we’re talking about back up minutes.
You say he’s played the point, can bring the ball up court, is a decent passer, doesn’t make many mistakes- to me this sounds like a check list to a decent option for back up pg minutes.
Add in that he can shoot and is 6’4 190 and I see no reason to vehemently deny it as a possibility.
Whether it works or not i’ve yet to see, But I want to see it and think it has a decent chance of being better than what Duhon has done in his minutes.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Kerr had MJ..... and Pippen.
DOT DOT DOT
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
He won 2 rings in san antonio
DOT DOT DOT
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
You're missing the point.
The point is that Kerr wasn’t called upon to run the offense, because to the extent that anyone ran the offense in the triangle, it was Jordan. And to the extent that anyone else ran the offense, it was Pippen.
Steve Kerr didn’t run the offense any more than Ron Harper or BJ Armstrong ran the offense — because of his team’s system.
Whereas in the Magic’s system, the offense is run mostly if not entirely from the point guard position. So unless you want Stan to draw up an entirely different playbook on the off chance JJ Redick might be able to play point guard after a decade of not playing point guard…
…well, I think we’re probably better off waiting to see if Duhon can figure it out, you know?
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Haha Steve Kerr had one game that actually mattered to SA's titles.
Give me a break. Duncan, Ginobli, Parker, Popavich. Are you trolling?
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
If you say that Magic were a better opponent then I will disagree why because save for Vince, Jameer, Stan and Gortat, the Magic lacked the fix they needed especially when they were leading. Past match was not a lesson and Gurdy should clean his closet
God Disguised as Michael Jordan
This team has four all stars and we still need a "go-to" scorer?!?
No way.
Dwight and Jameer are the go-to guys:
*They are the two young all stars on this team.
*They are the players with the most room for growth (Ryan Anderson/Brandon Bass’ development is not going to be the difference maker for a championship; Vince Carter’s not taking it back to 1999; Rashard is still struggling with consistency, nevermind “go-to” status; JJ Reddick is blocked by Vince and will never be VC 2.0).
*The center and PG are believed to be the two most essential positions in the NBA.
*PG and center are the only two positions where we clearly dominate Miami, our emerging rival in the division and conference.
*Dwight and Jameer are buds who Otis does not want to separate. Their chemistry and feel for one another will dictate how far we can go.
Looks like we’re having a bit of an identity issue with this “deep” roster. Dwight is actually emerging as our best offensive option when we must have a bucket. Jameer has to get him the ball. When he can’t, it’s going to be on Jameer to score or break down the defense so someone else can score. Period.
If we are dead set on keeping Dwight/Jameer as our Go-to.
Might as well quit watching right now. If Dwight has to carry the team both defensively and Offensively wtf is the team for.
Honestly I think our go-to guy is supposed to be carter/lewis. It just hasn’t been working out.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry unlike you I have hope for this team outside of Jameer Nelson.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Jameer was the best offensive player for us last night.
Especially considering he’s still recovering from a sprained ankle. Good job though on your input.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I don't disagree with that.
My take on it is that it is not good enough.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
It's what we have.
If you need something more than 19/7 on 12 FG attempts from your point guard, your problem is not your point guard.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Dwight is a legitimate two-way player
and is proving it this season. Tim Duncan is a two-way player. There aren’t many guys who are legitimately and consistently two-way, but the teams who have them win because of them.
Like it or not, Jameer is the future of this team (Howard notwithstanding), not Carter, and not Lewis.
Jameer can shoot the lights out from three and from the line. And if we’re keeping him around because we don’t want to disrupt the chemistry between him and Dwight, we need to push the Nelson/Howard chemistry as far as it can go.
by Hoop Dreams on Nov 11, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
I am completely unwilling to hang my hat on Meer. Have been for 3 years. I hope he does well but I don’t think he does better at that spot than about 12 other point guards could do.
If the desire is a championship, I don’t think a 12th best option point guard should be second guy on our team.
I’m the biggest dwight hugger there is and believe he should already have at least 1 mvp. But that does make me more critical of his teammates.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Not so much about Jameer as his role on this team.
I could probably name 12 other point guards who are better than Jameer. It’s been a while since I’ve heard debates about whether or not Jameer is a starting caliber point, or whether or not we should trade him. I certainly don’t mean to start that here.
What I’m saying is this team is built around Dwight and Jameer. They are the cornerstones. Those are the two players I expect to make it happen when everything else falls apart, and those are the guys I expect to take the blame when things don’t go right. They have the tools at their disposal to close out games.
So when they don’t can we hold them accountable?
I’ve always said Jameer was good, of course starting caliber. But there is a ton of really really good guards right now and I think a lot of Jameer’s short comings limit the offense’ potential. I know this is compared to other All star point guards, but I feel like if we’re a championship team its not insane to compare Jameer to a short list of 8-10 other pgs.
I know you’re not trying to get into that buts its hard to discuss him as lynch-pin in the offense without keeping his skills relative. It may work, may not- I’m only saying I don’t agree with it.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
I would say yes...
The team leaders get the credit for wins AND losses. That’s what I’m pushing for.
We can’t afford to still be looking for team leaders. That should be determined by now. I’m putting it on Dwight and Jameer, and I definitely hold them accountable when we blow 18 point leads.
Jameer played well coming off injury and against the type of point guard who will always give him trouble. But I still expect him to elevate his game when the chips are down more than I expect Vince or Rashard to do so. If Dwight needs to get the ball, I expect Jameer to get it to him. I also expect Jameer to say to his teammates, “Stop jacking up threes and feed the post!”
Fisher wasn't in the top 30 PG's last year.
Rondo was nowhere near the player he is now when Boston won three years ago. What are you talking about.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Rondo was the best player on that team when they won. It wasn’t hard to tell, when everyone else struggles they leaned on rondo to carry them through rough moments.
And your right, Fisher isn’t an amazing pg, and he got replaced. Additionally that line up has Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Kobe Bryant, Ron Artest. If we Gasol/Kobe or Kobe/Odom or Artest/Gasol it might be ok for our pg to not be top level. But we don’t, he have Howard and a bunch of unremarkable talent at other positions.
To give you an idea of this disparity in team builds Compare these 2 line ups:
Howard
Gasol
Odom
Bryant
Fisher
vs
Howard
Lewis
Richardson
Carter
Nelson
If you take Howard out of the equation, the teams do not even come close to comparing. This says something about our team, and the improvement has to come from somewhere. I like shooters at the 3 positions you’re not centering your offense on. But the 2 you center it on have to be elite caliber if you want consistent trips to the finals.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Rondo was not anywhere near the best player on that Boston title team.
The “Big 3” all played great in that series. Rondo had nothing to do with LA’s front line being neutralized, or Kobe having a miserable shooting series. And if you’re trying to make your point by comparing Dwight’s value to Jameer…. that is the most flawed argument I’ve ever seen on these forums ever. The point is that Jameer is the 2nd best player on our team, and the co-captain. He is not even in the top 10 problems this team has.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I’m not comparing meer to dwight. You cannot. But thats sorta my point. Our roster dwight aside is laughable compared to other championship rosters.
This team is all dwight, and they’re hoping it’ll be even more dwight because he appears to be both our best offensive and defensive player.
So I apologize if I don’t think drastically improving at the PG position a ridiculous idea. How can our second best player barely be a top 10 point guard and expect anything close to a ring out of it?
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
That has nothing to do with Jameer.
That has to do with the construction of the team, i.e. Otis Smith. If you don’t like it, take it up with him. I’ll say this though… it’s not easy to have several top-10 position players in your lineup. It’s called free agency and the salary cap. You have to get very lucky for that to happen. The Magic are lucky they have the best center.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
That's all it is.
A dream. It’s not constructive living in a dream world. I learned that from Inception.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Somehow I feel this is relevant to all of the dialogue on this post today:
by Redfield on Nov 11, 2010 12:41 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Ha!
That’s hilarious. Thanks for bursting my (and hopefully everyone’s) know-it-all bubble.
by Hoop Dreams on Nov 11, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Lol can that pic possibly be legitimate?
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yes I have.
The question was to the legitimacy of the actual picture. You would get a lot further not assuming you are 100 IQ points above everyone else.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Finally got a “100% cannot be anything besides a troll” comment out of you.
Maybe you’re not just a troll- but that was troll uniform right there.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Just as serious as thinking I’ve never seen a de-motivational poster before?
Its hard to tell with you, every response is typically at least somewhat over the top.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Folks, there is a difference between "point guard" and "point forward".
There are some players with enough ball handling skills which could play point forward and bring the ball up the court, Vince and J.J. included. But it is silly to even experiment someone who has never played as a point guard in that position. To cut the potential of additional debate on this issue, please note that I would not respond to any response to this post.
Take that market place of Ideas!
I will assert my belief but am completely unwilling to explain them!
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently suggesting trying a 2 at the back up pg minutes is such an extremely crazy idea the discussion has to shift to what is allowable in conversation.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
If we would all ignore him he would get bored and slime away.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Nov 12, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
sllime = slip, sorrry
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Nov 12, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Late to comment
But unforced TOs and missed FTs were the real killer. The Jazz are a very good team but they can not expect to keep getting down big and coming back. They have the size with Milsap and Jefferson, wings with Miles and Bell, and a great PG in Williams. It sucks to watch a blown 18 pt lead but its still a young season and SVG is trying to figure out what is going to work and what is not. Other random thoughts from the game:
-Its weird to see the second unit with so many “non” 3pt shooters. At one time it was Gortat, Bass, Duhon, JJ, and Richardson. I kept wondering who is going to score and they were struggling for good looks. Where is Pietrus?
-Wow, I hope Anderson stays mentally strong. Pulling a guy a minute and a half in and not playing him the rest of the game is a big gut check. I didn’t think this at first about him, but is Anderson quick enough to play against elite PFs? He honestly has not looked right since the Boston series.
-Loved Jameer in the game. He was playing real hard and trying to contest everything Williams was doing. But this was not his fault. Great game.
-Those were the quietest 20 pts Carter has scored. Played well, but he needs to get to the line(0 FTs!).
Still a better record than the Heat!
"A man has got to have a code." -Bunk, Season 1; Omar, Season 4.
All good points.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Shooting defense was the big thing.
60.2% true shooting for the Jazz. FTs were bad, TOs were bad, but they were both kind of flukey.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Agreed.
Team offense is horrid when he’s out.
by David Polega on Nov 11, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
5 fouls in 25 minutes leads to 30 min playing time.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Nov 12, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Can I just say something?
I know me criticizing Bass is old. And I’m not saying he was the reason we lost or anything. But honestly, I’m seeing a lot of praise for his performance here, and another thing I saw was the game. A third thing I saw was the box score. And you guys are outnumbered 2 to 1.
Yeah, his scoring was okay. Just about exactly okay. 10 shots, 3 possessions worth of FTs, 14 points. 55% true shooting. In my opinion, that’s not going to fly — we can get 55% true shooting from someone who DOESN’T require us to revamp the entire offense.
But he didn’t accomplish much on defense against Millsap. Not saying anyone else could’ve done better, just saying he was average at best. It probably didn’t help that they ran him out there for 37 minutes.
Oh, but here’s the most important number. 1. 1 is the most important number, because that is the exact number of defensive rebounds Brandon Bass got. In 37 minutes. 1.
One.
How does something like that happen?
I’m not saying anyone else is the answer. I’m not saying Anderson is the answer, though if Stan never lets him play through anything, I don’t know how we’re going to know. (I will say that if they gave him 35 more minutes, he probably would’ve found at least one more defensive board.)
But Bass was flimsy, pathetic and insufficient last night. Millsap repeatedly boxed him out, and had very little difficulty scoring on him inside. Yeah, yeah, I know, Millsap’s good. But after what Millsap did on Tuesday, Bass shouldn’t be the guy getting worn down in the second half. Maybe it’s Stan’s fault for playing him too many minutes. Maybe I’m overreacting to one bad game. I don’t know.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
so far Bass has 148.33 min. to Ryan's 73.50.
the only player with less minutes than Ryan is J-Will. When SVG benched RA last year for some games I thought he did it because he had the confidence in him that he would play good as soon as called upon. I was suprised that Stan didn’t go to him at all in the second half last night but I think he was right to take him out at the start. He really didn’t look confortable. Anyways, I’m just saying that Bass is the one that needs more minutes to get beter with the team. He even started passing the ball lately (with some TOs of course). I still thing that SVG trusts more RA.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
yes, I rember now that you mention it, well he was the who sat him down in the first place
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
My point wasn't so much that Stan does/doesn't trust anyone.
My point is that all of the weaknesses we’ve gone over with Bass were completely in evidence last night. His positioning on the glass was horrible, his scoring efficiency was pretty much dead average despite
I’d also draw a direct line between his constant scuffling for offensive rebounds and the Jazz’s fast-break success in the second half. But I still haven’t been able to work out whether Stan is telling him not to get back, or whether he’s just not doing it of his own accord.
And the Magic seemed to get back just fine in the first half.
That’s the baffling thing to me: the Magic’s first-half defense, Bass and all, was awesome. I really feel it’s a shock the Jazz scored as many as 35 points in that first half… the only thing they were getting was contested jumpers. Where did that go?
But I would say that: if you’re up by 18 in the second half, don’t gamble for offensive boards. Get the f*** back.
I know the Magic have been in love with the offensive rebound this year, and it makes sense to know how to do that. But in this game, I really feel like not being able to turn that off was the main reason we let the Jazz back in. It’s probably growing pains, that’s all — now they know. But it still hurts.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
There are borderline "fast break" points.
I feel like the Jazz scored a lot of possessions in the 4th quarter where it wasn’t a “fast break” in that the Jazz had the first guy down the court, but they were still able to attack before the Magic’s defense got set. They definitely weren’t scoring in a pure half-court manner.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
I scrolled around the forth quarter cause your point is interesting
but I didn’t see it happening often. Around 6:50 after a JJ missed three Utah took a long rebound and attacked before the D got set but it took ’em two possessions to score. If anything Magic were getting second chance opportunities which they fail to capitalize + they played soft, bad D.
Don't mind my spelling. I'm a Typo Master.
That's pretty bad. Only one?
Somewhat in his defense (but not really), but in the last 14 minutes there weren’t many defensive rebounding chances. But good god, 1 in 37 minutes?
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Yeah, there weren't a lot of missed shots in general.
Only 76 total rebounds for both teams. And he did pull down 3 offensive boards.
(Though as always, offensive rebound numbers don’t show rebounding skill so much as they show game plan decisions.)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
But still, Utah only had 6 offensive rebounds out of 29 available rebounds on the Magic defensive end
Plus, Bass wasn’t even in the game for 2 of those Utah offensive rebounds, so it is not exactly a legitimate gripe (in the overall team and game sense) against Bass about his 1 defensive rebound since it is not like there were lost rebounds to be had due to Bass’s presence in the game.
Proudly mocking the Disciples of Panic (some Magic fans) since October 29, 2010.
by funny80sguy on Nov 12, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
(I'm trying to play devil's advocate for the Bassinites)
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I figure you were goofing a little bit, but I was replying to your comment just to maintain the flow of this discussion because I think it is a good one :)
And I’m actually advocating for Bass in this particular case on one point. In this game, Bass’s only having 1 defensive rebound is not a knock against him and is actually not a legitimate point in my opinion. There were only 4 offensive rebounds obtained by Jazz players (two of which happened within seconds of each other indicating a botched tip-in that was recovered) that occurred during Bass’s 37 minutes on the floor.
I’m saying it is irrelevent that he only had 1 rebound because as long as the team got the defensive rebound on a missed Utah shot, who cares who gets credit for the rebound as long as the Magic as the team got the ball?
Proudly mocking the Disciples of Panic (some Magic fans) since October 29, 2010.
there's a game thread for tonight's Miami/Boston game
if anyone is interested :3
http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/11/11/1809008/open-thread-miami-vs-boston-11-11
I'm a girl.
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