Discussing the Orlando Magic with Kevin Pelton of Basketball Prospectus
Kevin Pelton of Basketball Prospectus is among the brightest minds covering the NBA today. Along with Bradford Doolittle, he published the Pro Basketball Prospectus 2010-11, which lives up to its billing as "the essential guide to the 2010-11 NBA Season," and I'm not just saying that because they let me contribute a paragraph to the Orlando Magic's "From the Blogosphere" section. The Prospectus is available as a PDF download for $9.98 or in paperback for $19.95.
Kevin graciously agreed to answer some of my Magic questions via email.
Evan Dunlap: Having to divide just 48 minutes a night at power forward between Rashard Lewis, Ryan Anderson, and Brandon Bass is a problem a lot of coaches would love to have. How would you allot those minutes?
Kevin Pelton: In some sort of hypothetical situation where I did not have to deal with the players' reactions to their minutes, I would probably play Anderson and Lewis fairly equally at power forward, give Lewis 10-15 minutes a night at small forward and leave Bass on the bench. Anderson is, to me, pretty comfortably the superior player. I totally understand why Stan Van Gundy wants to use all three guys, however.
ED: Bass didn't see the court too often last season, as he struggled with rebounding and team defense. He's taken a lot of strides in the exhibition schedule, though, which is going to make it hard for Van Gundy to keep him off the court. In the Prospectus, you write, "Bass is strictly an average reserve, and his poor rebounding undercuts the notion that playing him would really strengthen the Magic’s weaknesses," but also that he's "overqualified" as a fifth big man. Has his strong preseason play changed your stance on him?
KP: Not really. Preseason has value, but in this case the track record of Bass being average or worse on the glass is a lot more significant than six preseason games. He would have to play at this level for an extended period for me to really believe he's changed his stripes.
The rest of the interview, which includes Kevin's thoughts on Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson, Vince Carter, the team's offseason moves, and championship chances, follows the jump.
ED: Orlando hasn't enjoyed the benefits of a healthy Jameer Nelson for several seasons now. Assuming he can stay injury-free this season, what can he add to the team? Can he approach his All-Star production from the 2008/09 season?
KP: I'd be surprised if Nelson ever played at that level again, especially now that he's nearing age 29 and his late prime. I think somewhere between where he's played the last two seasons is a more reasonable target. That's similar to how Nelson played when healthy in 2009-10, and it's a level of performance with which the Magic can win a lot of games, as we've seen.
ED: After a disappointing campaign last season--one which saw his offensive opportunities drop, perhaps due to the addition of Vince Carter--Lewis is looking to bounce back. Any chance he will? And can the Magic afford to play him if his treys aren't going in, given that Ryan Anderson's a comparable outside shooter with solid rebounding production?
KP: Surely a chance, especially if he continues to take so well to spending increased time at small forward. I would love to see Lewis rediscover his post-up game against smaller defenders. I don't think people around the league realize just how lethal he became in the post at the end of his career in Seattle. Late in the 2006-07 season, when Ray Allen was sidelined by ankle surgery, Lewis was the go-to option for the Sonics and was effective in that role, leading the team to some unexpected wins. I would say Lewis is worth playing even in a scenario where he's not shooting the ball well because of his superior defense as compared to Anderson's. He seemed to slip a bit on D last season as well as on the offensive end, but in 2008-09 I think he was a big part of Orlando's defense.
ED: Dwight Howard drew a lot of attention this summer for his working out with Hakeem Olajuwon, which peaked when footage of their sessions together reached the internet. What'd you make of the footage? Is this year the one where Howard advances from "good" to "great" at the offensive end? And can he make that leap without losing anything on defense?
KP: That last question is interesting. I sometimes think there's a bit of a trade-off whenever a player learns a new skill or improves in one area where he slips in another. Naturally, go-to scorers tend to coast more on defense, but in Howard's case I would say that he's already enough of a focal point in the Orlando offense that any development will be more about making him more efficient with the plays he uses rather than him having to expend more energy. I'm reserving judgment on how much Howard really can improve at the offensive end. If he adds the little jumper he's shown during the preseason, I'm not sure how you defend that.
ED: The Magic's offseason acquisitions of Chris Duhon and Quentin Richardson went unnoticed, for the most part. Which player do you see having a greater impact? You seem high on both signings, noting Duhon's improved defense over Jason Williams and Richardson's ability to hit the three-ball, a fact that has NBA.com's John Schuhmann writing that the Magic will break records in that area this season.
KP: I would say Richardson will have the greater short-term impact since he's stepping into what figures to be a larger role. To me, Duhon was more of a long-term signing to have a backup to Nelson in place for a few years now. He's a slight upgrade on Williams this year, but the real difference will come down the road. I would definitely agree with Schuhmann on the chance that the Magic breaks its own three-point record because of the newcomers. SCHOENE projects 892 three-pointers, an increase of 51 from last year's total.
ED: One question-mark for Richardson is his defense, as his "counterpart numbers were below average" in Miami. While he's certainly an upgrade over Matt Barnes on offense, given his shooting range, is there any chance he can approximate Barnes' effectiveness on defense? Is the trade-off a net positive or negative for Orlando?
KP: I was a little surprised Richardson's defensive numbers were not better, given he played for a very good Heat defense and was taking on a lot of difficult matchups. That could be a fluke, since the defensive numbers we have are not especially reliable. If he's motivated, Richardson has the tools to be a solid defender, though he doesn't match up as well with bigger small forwards as Barnes did. I would say Barnes' versatility gives him the overall advantage and indicates that replacing him with Richardson is a net negative.
ED: In the Prospectus, your SCHOENE projection system says there's a 37% chance Vince Carter improves this season. Can you talk about SCHOENE a bit more, and how specifically it applies to Carter? Is there any way he can be a perimeter ace on whom the Magic can rely when they need a basket?
KP: SCHOENE uses 13 statistics, including height and weight, to pick out the most similar players at the same age from the last three decades for each current player. In this case, what SCHOENE tells us is that most players who were similar to Carter declined at the same age, which is to be expected given that he is in his mid-30s. It's not such an overwhelming number, though, that Carter is certain to drop off. Because Carter's previous two seasons were better than his 2009-10, our overall projection (based on the previous three years) suggests Carter's bottom-line results will be fairly similar to last year. We may just not see as dramatic swings within the season as we did in 2009-10. Carter's projected usage rate remains strong, so he still should be able to create his own offense. It's a question of his efficiency doing so.
ED: Because Carter's contract is not fully guaranteed, there's a good chance he won't be part of the Magic next season. But because of their high payroll, even letting him walk won't free up the cap space necessary to acquire a replacement, via either trade or free-agency. What are the Magic's options if they decide not to keep Carter as part of their core? Could they get decent value for him in a midseason trade?
KP: I think the best scenario would probably be looking to move him next summer, when he would essentially be an instant expiring contract for a team looking to shed payroll. If Orlando looked to deal Carter at the deadline, that would mean competing with guys who are expiring at season's end, and the market is likely to be flooded with such players. Unless the Magic gets someone who could be the missing piece for a championship this year, it probably makes sense to hold on to Carter.
ED: "Ultimately," you write, "Otis Smith is going to have to get value for [Marcin Gortat] in a trade." Do you still feel this way? Is there any chance the Magic could keep him and trade Bass, for example, instead?
KP: Lewis at small forward opens up some options, but I'm still dubious on Gortat and Howard working together because of the lack of shooting in that lineup. To me, it's Howard that is blocking Gortat, not the overall frontcourt depth, so to me moving Bass would not really do much to help the situation in terms of what you're paying Gortat for the minutes available for him.
ED: You also write that the Magic would be among the favorites to win a title this year were it not for the Miami Heat. Do you still feel that way? Which things have to go right for Orlando (or wrong for Miami) for the Magic to emerge as the favorites?
KP: Yeah … if I was doing championship power rankings, I would have the Heat first and the Magic second. I do feel like Orlando has closed the gap in my mind, so it may just be a matter of winning a hard-fought playoff series rather than something in particular having to go right or wrong … though Miami injuries and the Heat taking some time to coalesce certainly don't hurt.
ED: In addition to the Prospectus book, you also have a website. What are the differences between the two, in terms of scope and goal? Is there anything more about the future of Basketball Prospectus you'd like to mention here?
KP: I would say the goals are pretty similar in terms of trying to use cutting-edge analysis in all its forms to understand basketball. Obviously, that means statistical analysis first and foremost, but also game breakdowns and understanding the role played by the Xs and Os. The book is very focused in terms of an essay analyzing each team and a paragraph or two on each player, whereas we have the chance to provide more variety on the website. We might go from discussing a statistical conference to an Every Play Counts video breakdown to a specific analysis of a team's or player's statistics to a more general observation on what wins. There are some changes in store for Basketball Prospectus, but I'm afraid I'm not at liberty to share them just yet. Stay tuned....
Thanks again to Kevin for taking the time to respond to my questions. Visit Basketball Prospectus at www.basketballprospectus.com.
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Do you ever stop?
When the big fella was whistled for his fourth personal foul midway through the third quarter, Stan Van Gundy left Clark Kent alone. And in a phone booth measuring 94 feet across, Dwight Howard used that vote of confidence to transform into his alter ego. - Chris Sheridan
by thermodynamic on Oct 29, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Mr. Dunlap. Noticed account name and avatar change.
I like your choice of pic. Now, I’ll have to adjust to calling you Mr. Dunlap rather than Ben.
And thanks for pulling Pelton into the discussion. You keep raising the bar around here. Bravo.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Oct 29, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I write for Magic Basketball and have a Twitter account.
No more than a nuisance troll
don’t feed him.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the read Evan
I enjoy these insightful interviews. It is always good to get an unbiased third party opinion thrown into the mix.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 12:52 PM EDT reply actions
To me, it doesn't make any sense at all to trade Vince at this year's deadline if the team is on a roll
Why would you ever destroy a team chemistry and construction in the middle of a season that’s planned to end with a championship banner?
That's what Kevin said
“Unless the Magic gets someone who could be the missing piece for a championship this year, it probably makes sense to hold on to Carter.”
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Who would that be?
Would you make that trade for Carmelo in the middle of the season? Or for CP3?
I know it regards other players as well, so that could be even more destructive. Look at Miami’s chemistry, this after a training camp and with three superstars on the team.
Why would you risk that when the team plays like it does right now?
well if you can get a CP3
you have to do it. That is a sacrifice for the long run. I am not buying Melo, as I don’t think he would re-sign here anyways, so that would be jsut a swap for a few months.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
You'd trade Jameer + Vince for CP3?
If CP3 gets injured or if he doesn’t play well in the Magic’s system, you risk losing Howard later in FA, after you have just traded his best friend (Jameer).
You take that chance for a top 5 (maybe top 10) player
Melo no, but CP3 is worth the chance.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
If Carter can be healthy and rested at the end of the season..
I think he will be that “missing piece”
vince carter
the only way id trade him this season is if we get carmelo anthony straight up
I don't agree with many of his points
I don’t see how Duhon is not extremely important this season when it seemed that the backup point guard was unable to do anything in last year’s playoffs. To me that makes Duhon a big plus this year, if nothing but to keep Williams fresh until the playoffs rather than having him run out of gas mid season. This to me makes Duhon possibly vital to the success of the Magic this year, where as Richardson could be replaced if needed by a lineup if he faltered (aka start Pietrus, or give even more minutes to Shard at the 3). Nelson was the only one who could initiate any offense against the Celtics, and once he was tired, we lost.
While I liked Barnes, and his minor injury hurt in the playoffs against Pierce no doubt, I think Q has the ability to be much more effective than him. Barnes allowed for defenders to sag off him whereas Q can make them pay, not to mention the post up ability which is possibly a key ingredient to making the likes of Pierce work on defense to slow down their offense. I don’t see size as being as important as hoping Q can stay in front of his guy and force jumpers more often than not.
Nelson has been outstanding when not injured, the only thing that will keep his numbers down in a healthy season is the fact that he is giving those shots to others rather than taking them himself. At 29, he can still get to the rim and finish and his outside shot is deadly. I guess I don’t understand his reasoning for assuming at 29 Nelson can’t be as good as at 27.
“Reserving judgment” on Howard being able to improve offensively is silly. Howard, using the same moves with nothing new will improve offensively just from sheer continuity and confidence. The jumper would just make him near unstoppable.
And maybe it is just me, but championship rankings to me are earned so the top 2 spots for me go to the Lakers and Boston, then everyone else can pick the rest imo. The Lakers won last year and arguably improved their team, Boston did as well. Miami may have bought a ticket to the championships soon, but I will not concede that spot until they are there. Until then the people that earned it last year get my vote.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
I'm with you on multiple points.
I think Duhon and Q are nearly in importance – which isn’t suprising for a team built on balance.
Duhon:
A better backup (sorry J-Will…I still think you’re awesome) will mean that Nelson can rest more. A healthy Nelson is still a top10 PG in this league. Duhon isn’t rocking my world yet, but we’ve seen improvement with him in the Magic system throughout the preseason. Taking some of the load off Nelson is a huge plus of Duhon, and when he’s struggling, we still have J-Will – who knows the system, keeps up a good pace, and who we know is going to hold his own against other backups.
Q:
Biggest plus…offense. He stretches the floor more than Barnes ever could, so that frees up Howard even more to be his dominant self. On defense, when he’s motivated he can be just as smothering defender as Barnes was, and I believe Van Gundy has earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to getting consistant effort from his players.
As for the Championship, I’m 100% in agreement. LA is the 2x defending champion, and look ot be even better this year despite being a year older. Kobe is probably only 2 seasons from being only the 5th person in history to reach 30k points in his career, so it’s ludicrous to not think that the trophy goes through Hollywood. The Celtics, as you noted, took LA to the brink last year, and THEY look better this year as well despite getting a year older. And speaking of older…both these teams are good enough to get into the playoffs early, and thus be able to rest their best players before a playoff run. Anyone who thinks either team will “run out of gas” obviously slept through last year’s playoffs.
The Magic are #3 contenders in my book, for soley the reasons listed. I think they can beat both teams…but they can’t claim to be more likely to win a ring until they prove it on the court against the teams above them during the season. OKC at #4, if they can build at all on last year. Then Miami at #5, simply on talent. They don’t get ranked any higher in my book until they prove they can play together. Right now it’s basically like playing the 09 Cavs when James is in, and the 09 Heat when he’s not.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Oct 29, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
LA better this year?
Okay, they got a point guard who wasn’t Derek Fisher. I’ll give them that.
But consider Kobe. Hasn’t he declined in the last few seasons? Didn’t he post 54.5% true shooting last year, barely above the league average? And isn’t he coming into this season bothered by nagging injuries?
I say Kobe’s career is winding down, and this is the season he contends with that fact. He’s going to shoot significantly below the league average, because he’s going to keep trying the same circus shots that used to go in for him, and he’s going to miss.
Maybe there’s a point where he adjusts to this, of course. Maybe Kobe can rein in his offensive game, only take good shots, and score 20-22 PPG or whatever as a second fiddle to Gasol (which, in a way, he already is). But knowing Kobe, I doubt it’ll all happen within the year.
And while “Kobe has 52% TS” isn’t going to singlehandedly disqualify them as contenders, you have to wonder whether there are going to be effects on the team’s chemistry and discipline if their star becomes a chucker and gets frustrated.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Matt Barnes is a big upgrade off the bench too
by eltharion_doa on Oct 29, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Possibly.
I can’t remember who the Lakers’ backup SF was last year, so I suppose I’ll have to give Barnes credit for that.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Yep! Barnes will make up for Kobe's knee and finger, not to mention the dips in TS% and eFG.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Ron Artest soaked up a lot of those minutes.
So it really didn’t matter.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
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no offense
but you focus on true shooting too much to determine if a player is good or not… kobe is still the best player in the game in my opinion…and trust me I hate saying that, I live in Cali and all my friends are Lakers fans
What should I focus on, then?
I feel like True Shooting answers the two most important questions about a player’s offense:
- How many points does he score?
- How many possessions does the team have to give up in order to get those points from him?
The only thing I think could improve on that model is if there was some way to track turnovers incurred while trying to shoot/drive/etc. and add them into the calculation. (I’ve been treating all turnovers as possessions used, which is one way to look at it, but passing turnovers are ideally a different sort of thing.)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
i mean
kobe just won 2 rings in a row..what about clutchness, leadership, etc… stats don’t tell everything..
and i kno pau is a big part of the lakers too, but only a fool would say that he is more important to the team than kobe
u said
“Didn’t he post 54.5% true shooting last year, barely above the league average”
so does that mean Kobe is barely above league average in terms of overall talent? cause that’s what your saying if we only go by True Shooting
No.
I said his scoring efficiency was barely above the league average. That’s one aspect of his game.
Obviously, he does other things well. His scoring volume is very good — he’s good at getting decent shots out of situations where the Lakers are well defended. He’s a good passer. Etc.
But in the long run, if he’s attempting his 54% TS shots, and the Magic are attempting their 57.3% TS shots, the Magic are going to pull ahead. If, of course, that were the whole story.
It’s not the whole story, though. The Lakers’ strong defense cuts that 57.3% number down. Other Lakers (including Pau and Andrew Bynum, who are lower-volume but higher-efficiency scorers) are bringing up the team’s total efficiency with their accurate shooting. Etc.
I don’t happen to think it’s particularly controversial to say that if Kobe becomes a less accurate scorer due to age, it makes the Lakers worse. I’m not even saying I know Kobe will become less accurate… I’m just saying that appears to be the trend.
What are you saying here? Are you saying that a decrease in accuracy from Kobe wouldn’t hurt the Lakers?
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
man im just sayin
its ridiculous if you think pau is the best player on the lakers…and that you look at stats too much to see how good a player is..sometimes you just have to watch the game to see who is better
like if u play a game of pickup ball at 24 hour fitness
can’t you tell which players are the best just by watching? or do you need to check their stat sheets afterwards..u kno what im saying?
Fine -- you want to go by impressions?
Here’s my impression of Kobe. You can’t quantify this statistically. So don’t try.
I’ve been saying this for years: Kobe is the kind of player who has always excelled at making tough shots, but he’s never been anything special at manufacturing easy shots.
He’s always sinking off-balance jumpers, dunking over multiple defenders, doing up-and-under moves under the basket. The fact that he can do this kind of thing makes him great.
But it also means that, when he no longer has the athleticism to pull off those circus shots, he’s going to face a rude awakening. He’s going to have to alter his style of play.
You saw when it happened to Vince Carter. You saw when it happened to Allen Iverson (who, to be fair, was already missing a lot of shots.) You saw when it happened to Tracy McGrady (who, to be fair, found himself very limited very quickly by chronic injuries.)
Now, you can say Kobe’s better than any of those guys were, and you’d be right. But the fact remains that he’s not a guy like Steve Nash or Paul Pierce, who keep their efficiency up by finding and taking high-percentage shots. He’s not a guy like LeBron James, who keeps his efficiency up by running/shooting over defenders. Kobe keeps his efficiency up by making shots most players couldn’t make.
Players who rely on making tough shots always start to decline young. And remember Kobe’s been playing 82-100 games a year since he was 19. I’m not saying it’ll happen this year. But it will happen, and I think it’ll happen relatively soon.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
I am not goign to dispute that Kobe will decline
and it is a question of when not if. I just think overall the Lakers are still better than last year, and I believe Kobe will maintain his current ability another year or two. I think Kobe has a pretty good mid-range game that will keep him able to score, albeit inefficiently. I just think his team as a whole is built to accommodate and overcome his deficiencies for he most part. And Kobe will still light it up on occasion. I think he will still be a good go to guy for final shots when you need a basket though.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
Oh, I agree.
The team’s built perfectly around Kobe. Their reliance on post scorers after him, for example, camouflages his shortcomings in terms of court vision — he’s not really a point guard, but if he mostly just has to look at the paint, he can pull it off. Etc.
They’re still a tough team, even if Kobe declines.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
I said "in a way".
I don’t feel Pau has as big an impact on the Lakers as Kobe does. (Nor do I feel he could… because he’s primarily a post scorer, there’s a limit to the number of shots he can take.)
But I do feel his impact on the Lakers is more consistently positive. Kobe does a lot of good things (scoring, defense, etc.), but can also do some bad things (low-percentage shots, not finding the open man, etc.) Pau does fewer things, but almost all of them help his team.
I mean, I guess that’s my underlying point. The guy who does the most things is not always the most reliable guy. I mean, look at Baron Davis.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Just to add an example
Dwight goes through a game gets 15 points, 12 rebounds, but many times those numbers don’t represent that he was above and beyone the most dominate force in the game. Numbers just don’t tell the whole story of how a player affects a game. I mean even players shooting and missing, when they are drawing attention, they could be opening up easy put backs. By your assertion the guy doing the put back who is 5/5 is dominating, when really it is the guy who missed the shot but opened up the glass by drawing the defense.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
True shooting doesn't represent the winning team
as much as I like statistics to help formulate theories, they are still just theories. You speak of Kobe’s horrible true shooting, but he hasn’t had a very good % for years, and they have been winning the championship anyhow? Really you will just blow more numbers all around, but just like an accountant in MLB, just because you can make the numbers say what you want, doesn’t make it true. Too may factors that aren’t represented by numbers determine the outcome.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
Did I "speak of Kobe’s horrible true shooting"?
I spoke of Kobe’s barely-above-average true shooting. I don’t know how you stretched that to “horrible”.
And then I spoke of the Lakers’ team defense, which allows significantly less than 54.5% shooting to opponents, which means Kobe’s shots are still an advantage. And of the Lakers’ supporting cast, many of whom shoot better than 54.5% (and the pressure Kobe puts on defenses is of course a factor in this, as is his passing.)
And then I said that if this continues, it would be harder for the Lakers to win. Not saying they still couldn’t win, because of all their other strengths (some of which are still provided by Kobe). Just saying that less accurate shooting by Kobe makes the Lakers a somewhat more vulnerable team. That’s all.
By the way, Kobe has historically been in the 56-57% range, so your line about “he hasn’t had a very good % for years” isn’t accurate. He was specifically a less accurate shooter last year than he has been in the past.
And yes — the team that shoots better generally wins the game. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. At the very least, the less accurate team had better force some turnovers or get an advantage on the boards.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
And this all started because I said
I thought the Lakers were better this year. Let’s get back to that. I assume Bynum will come back healthy, Artest will be more comfortable with the team’s offense and defense, and Blake is a huge upgrade over Farmar, and Barnes is a great addition as well to just be all Barnes like. On top of all that they are the champions until they are beaten, so I don’t really see that it is far fetched for me to say they should be ranked #1 right now. That is how all this talk of Kobe’s shooting and squabbling over moot points erupted! ;) I think Kobe will be about the same, but I think his cast will be better, since the team won last year (and the year b4), that to me gives them a pretty good shot to do it again.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
Fair enough.
Though I don’t think they were the best team last year, just because they happened to win the playoffs. They faced a relatively easy schedule, and still struggled with it at times.
(Of course, part of the notion underlying this impression is that the Celtics were a 50-55 win team who overachieved in May. If you don’t believe that, the Lakers’ win over them becomes more impressive.)
But that’s certainly an argument that could be made, and even if Kobe does decline a bit, they have certainly made some additions that might offset that.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
Kobe's injured finger was repaired.
Last season he played the entire season with it needing to be operated on, with a cast, and had to develope a whole new shooting stroke. Now it’s been fixed, and while it might not be as good as it was before the injury and he’ll have to work back to his natural/original shooting stroke, it will certainly be better than playing with a cast on it.
Overall the team is healthier, and with the addition of Barnes and Blake I don’t think it’s totally crazy to think they are as good, if not better, than they were last year.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Oct 29, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
They could not fix his finger. Arthritis cannot be fixed. He is still wrapping it to play.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
True..."fix" was too strong.
But it was worked on, and is likely in better shape now than last year.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Oct 29, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
And for kicks
Even if LA were not better, I still give them the top spot on principle, I am a believer in the top spot is theirs until someone else takes it. But really I still feel that they are #1 in the league, even with Miami’s upgrades. Doesn’t mean they are not beatable.
If you were a man I would punch you, right in the mouth.
We can agree they are the champs until they get beat.
But we can speculate on who will be the new champ.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks to both
… in helping ED embarass Kevin Pelton. And solid ordering of 1 through 5.
You showed how that whole discussion was not the “realistic” assessment Ben, er…, ED intended it to appear to be. It didn’t sound right, was quite a downer to read, and started to get me worried.
Don’t want to be piling on though if the interview predated the pre-season, “even though” the Magic are the best team in the NBA right now, and even if thery have “only Played” 8 games (with 81 more to steamroll through).
by spacecabooie on Oct 29, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think maybe spacecabooie inhabits a parallel universe where all the pieces don't quite fit together?
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think...
I think he was trying to say that myself and Eric disagreeing with Pelton’s points were “helping you embarrass him”. I’m not sure if it was intended to snarkingly call Me/Eric know-it-alls, or if he really just disagreed with Pelton as well and simply randomly included you. Judging by the last sentence, it seems like the latter though.
I don’t know how good Basketball Prospectus is, but I know Baseball Prospectus with Nate Silver was like the most spot on thing ever for Baseball…so the name to me denotes quality (I assume their affiliated, but I guess I should check before I assume). I just didn’t agree with some of his assesments in this particular interview. There were several points he made that I do agree with – particularly about keeping Carter being the right move and how Q-Rich would have more positive impact in the short term (Duhon needs to develop in the Magic’s system).
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Oct 29, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
My take on the "keeping Carter balloon"
was that Kevin was saying that Vince should be kept only through the year and then disposed of (while Eric 9321 seems to say trade him at the deadline and TBBQCM says keep him (indefinitely ?) which I agree with – use other trade bait for CP3 and leave Carmelo alone). I think agree with Raptorel on this one.
This has become a generational thing, Carter vs CP3; youth for the future and burn the present resources out of fear that the aging will becoem putrid. With no crediting Carter for unprecedentedly attempting to perform a clock reset … I think he earned his Orlando retirement pention this summer. And in the process brings the championship that D12 may fall short of doing single handedly as everyone says it is his to do singlehandedly or else there won’t be any championship.
As for me, I only wanted to support TBBQCM and Eric 9321 in the face of the celabratory lead off comment (“sensational writer”). That definitely was not the reaction I had. Kevin’s composition skill must be sensational but to commend the points in the interview would be to also endorse his rational. I like to read everything Kevin writes about the Magic, supportive of my hope for the team or not. But I just think, based on those expressions, that for some reason his judgement vis a vis the magic this season is off the mark.
I fell off the no-hoops wagon just 2 years ago, only making it to blog reader early this year, so I am obviously “underdeveloped” in NBA knowledge in general, and Magic history and statistics in particular. And I barely have time to read all this good stuff – let alone comment with any intelligence. So, atthis point any post I offer is a hit or miss venture but is sent only when I feel compelled to do so.
Yes I understood that Evan was not trying to embarass Kevin, but I wanted Kevin to be embarrassed so I tried to extend the argument by thanking Evan for setting a table of which TBBQCM and Eric 9321 availed themselves, and then adding my belief that the points raised by Kevin are not benign – they were intended to support an argument that the Magic remain fundamentally flawed.
The interview characterized the Magic as inferior relative to my characterization of them (which is one I of course believe to be a fair and, I would hope, impartial, one), and had to be taken seriously. This was my lazy attempt to leverage what TBBQCM and Eric 9321 had written and add a bit of an insult to address what I considered insulting in Kevin’s responses.
by spacecabooie on Oct 29, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Pelton has a unique way of looking at basketball in large. It is methodical and refreshing.
But I never had an opportunity to look at the statistical tools which he uses to form any opinion on whether or not they are scientifically reliable. It would probably be easier to take a look at his background. I am, however, impressed with his breadth of knowledge.
This is just my $0.02, but at this point I don’t think they’re reliable yet on defense, but they’re fairly decent on understanding offense. They should keep improving, though. Basketball and hockey are probably the major sports that are most difficult to analyze, because there’s not really a static situation to measure from like there is in football between downs or in baseball with distinct plays. The continuous nature of play makes the definition of discrete events more difficult, which complicates statistical analysis. It’s slightly easier offensively, since the offense defines the play and has on-ball/off-ball as a defining state, but it’s still something that needs improvement (and will improve with time, as teams find it worthwhile to finance improving the statistical tools of the game).
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Bass
yea i kno what a surprise right? the only problem I have with this guy’s commentry is that I think it’s unfair to judge Bass’s play from last year because he got inconsistent playing time, and was still learning our system (remember it took JJ 2+ years to learn our system)…
And while Bass is 25, that is still pretty young, and he still a lot of room to grow…I may be wrong, but don’t players reach their peak at like 28-30?
Also, he criticizes him for poor rebounding (which I agree, he should rebound more for a PF)…but then again, isn’t rashard lewis a poor rebounding PF?? He averaged like 4 or 5 rpg last year right? you kno why…cause we have DWIGHT HOWARD to get all the rebounds..and Bass is not an average reserve…the dude shoots lights out from mid-range, and he gets blocks
And again, im not dissing Ryan Anderson…I LIKE HIM..I just feel like I need to defend Bass sometimes cause some people only focus on the negative aspects of his game and don’t talk about his positive ones
Bass' comments are based on six years of experience. After 6 years there's not a lot of improvement going on.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Bass may only be 25, but his repertoire of moves doesn’t seem to have grown since college. He is what he is, which is a high-athleticism, low-to-medium-skill player. That doesn’t mean he’s not useful, it just means that what you see is what you get. I think the extra time learning the system will help him to be a defensive asset rather than liability this season, but he’ll still primarily be a backup within the Magic’s system because of his offensive limitations.
And yes, Lewis is a poor rebounding PF, but Bass’s numbers jumped out because they dove off a cliff. With Dallas, he was snagging 16-17% of the available rebounds. With Orlando, it dropped to 12.6%. Part of that may be due to the good rebounding from our centers, but Anderson, the “weak” PF, grabbed 12.8% of available rebounds. Given Bass’ alleged superior athleticism, his positioning and/or lack of height would appear to be limiting his ability to take advantage of that athleticism when compared to Anderson.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Most players reach peak in 24-27 years old range.
Please don't simply ignore the stats when making your case, 'cause "...your eyes lie to you sometimes..."
Stats Education::
Advanced Stats 101 @ MBN | Basketball Reference | Basketball Prospectus | 82games
by magicfaninTN on Oct 29, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The only couple points I'd really dispute...
…are the points that show the limits of statistical projection.
Re: Richardson, Pelton himself says that it’s hard to predict what happens when a player moves from team to team, and that defensive metrics are inherently shaky. I feel like his model shows one thing, but Pelton accounted for the possibility that Richardson will work out.
And I highly doubt SCHOENE has a model that factors in month-by-month splits. If it did, though, that would probably make Vince Carter look better. (Then again, a lot of month-by-month splits are flukey. I think Carter’s represent something real, though…)
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
I cannot read exactly from your post whether you DISPUTE the limitations of statistical projection or you AGREE with it.
Statistics has been simplified into number crunching – one can easily use Excel to build straight forward models – but the essence of statistics is in interpreting/inference. That is where qualitative and quantitative meet and merge. Most amateur statisticians could crunch numbers, but do not have the knowledge to make sure that the tool which they are using is appropriate, or the skill to interpret – infer from – the results.
Pelton is right in accounting for replacing Barnes with Richardson as a net negative. I have expanded on this matter in my prior posts by stating that due to offensive improvements by Magic’s EC competitors – MIA and BOS – emphasis should have been on defense rather than on offense. Pelton holds that Richardson does not defend bigger SFs as well as Barnes does. I admit though that BOS series was an exception since Barnes was playing hurt.
I have not checked SCHOENE for reliability, but in general I could see that month-by-month splits are useless or unreliable since players play 10-15 games per month which is not a large enough accumulation to condition many variables that come into play. Having that said, I don’t know how month-by-month splits could make Carter look better, except if you hold that he may look better at some months than others. Regardless, the aggregate could not be any different.
Re: Carter
Consider the situation. Carter joined a new team, failed as a scorer for three months, adjusted his approach to the team’s offense, then succeeded for three months.
To me, that suggests that there’s a good chance Carter learned something around the All-Star break last year, or that the team/coaching staff learned something about how to use Carter, or both. It could be a fluke, but it looks like it might be real.
And I don’t think a projection system like SCHOENE, which takes entire seasons as homogeneous blocks, would take that kind of stuff into account. Nor should it, really… normally, month-by-month trends are random fluctuations caused by small sample size. But this is a case where more detailed statistical analysis shows what may well be an ongoing trend.
You mess with the 4-out/1-in, you get the Horns.
We are in agreement on points elaborated. You are right that cross-checking - by using different tools - could be the answer.
But then some of these tools claim that they are a combination of a few tools – or rather sub-tools – which actually provide a cross-checking function. I am not familiar with SCHOENE as to whether it is of the cross-checking type.
The Magic did not lose because of their defense. Q is an improvement in the offense, which is what was needed.
"Teams are making adjustments to us, it’s not the other way around," Smith said. "Right after (the Heat) signed LeBron and Bosh, they went out and signed eight centers. So I’m not overly concerned."
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
by NC Magic Fan on Oct 29, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but it's always better when an offensive improvement comes without a defensive downgrade ;)
Honor is no substitute for victory.

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