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Investigating the Orlando Magic's Struggling Defense against Point Guards

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Phelan M. Ebenhack - AP

Following his team's 101-93 loss to the Chicago Bulls last night, Orlando Magic coach Stan Van Gundy noted three areas of concern for his team in recent games: its inability to get All-Star center Dwight Howard the ball in the low-post, its power forwards' inability to keep opponents off the offensive glass, and its point guards' poor defense. You can read some of Van Gundy's comments in John Denton's analysis at OrlandoMagic.com. What I'd like to focus on is that third point, about defending opposing point guards. Here's Van Gundy, as quoted by Denton:

"Virtually every night now it's the point guard who is the leading scorer. It's not all one-on-one with the point guards because they are in pick-and-rolls a lot, but we've got to get that figured out."

Overall, "virtually every night" is a bit of an overstatement, but not lately: the opponent's starting point guard has led his team in scoring in each of Orlando's last 3 games, but just 5 times in 33 contests so far. It's easy to see why Van Gundy's concerned. Orlando is 2-1 in its last games and 3-2 in those situations overall, but can't continue to give up 20-point performances to opposing point guards and expect to have a great season, which is why I've done some digging at basketball-reference.com and Hoopdata.com. I wanted to know what "clicks" for Magic opposing point guards in winning efforts.

This exercise is highly unscientific, and I wish I had the time and resources necessary to give it the attention it deserves. For instance, these data don't account for who was actually on the floor guarding these opposing point guards. They don't account for defensive switches. They don't account for well-defended shots that went in anyway, or poorly defended shots that somehow missed. They don't account for flukey shooting nights when the Magic let an opposing point guard take inefficient shots in areas in which they normally struggle, only for those shots to drop. They don't account for backup point guards at all. So please, take everything I'm about to present with a shaker of salt.

Orlando Magic Opposing Point Guard Statistics, Per-Game, By Result, 2009-10 NBA Season
ResultMinsPtsRebsAstsTOs3FGAFTAeFG%TS%%Ast
ORL Wins32.714.53.35.31.91.42.847.9%51.3%34.0
ORL Losses37.419.25.88.42.92.46.149.2%55.4%18.6

Quickly, what jumps out at you? For me, it's the rebounding, assists, and free-throw attempts. In Magic losses, the opposing point guard is quite simply all over the place, creating shots for himself, for his teammates, hitting the glass, drawing fouls, and coughing the ball up a few times. That's a lot of activity. If a player managed to post similar averages over the course of a single season, he'd be in some elite company.

Also, check the stat in the rightmost column: that's the percentage of the player's shots that were assisted. The sharp contrast between wins and losses indicates that Orlando is in trouble when opposing point guards create off the dribble for themselves. Individual game logs bear that out, to a degree: when Mo Williams scored 28 against the Magic in a Cavaliers rout, none of his 12 field goals were assisted. But when Orlando defeated Minnesota two nights ago, it did so despite Jonny Flynn's 23 points. He didn't attempt any shots within 10 feet from the basket, and was assisted on 4 of his 7 baskets. That's a point guard not terribly interested in creating for himself. Also, take a look at this list of starting point guards who've faced the Magic twice, and their records against the Magic this year:

Record for Opposing Point Guards agains the Orlando Magic, 2009/10 NBA Season (min: 2 starts)
PlayerTeamRec. vs. ORL
Jose CalderonTOR0-2
Chris DuhonNYK0-2
Raymond FeltonCHA0-2
Brandon JenningsMIL0-2
Steve NashPHO1-1
Rajon RondoBOS1-1
Rodney StuckeyDET1-1
Russell WestbrookOKC1-1
Deron WilliamsUTA1-1

Yes, with the exception of Stuckey, each of the point guards with .500 records against Orlando plays for a .500-or-better team, so their improved record stands to reason. But look at the point guards who are winless against the Magic this year. Of the four, only Jennings is a real offensive dynamo. Calderon, Duhon, and Felton are conservative, "game-manager" types. The rest of the lot are either table-setters (Nash, Rondo, Williams) or hyperaggressive pogo sticks (Stuckey, Westbrook). These are unscientific classifications, to be sure, but still interesting.

But what happens if we examine opposing point guards not by wins and losses, but instead by whom Orlando trotted out against them?

Star-divide

Orlando Magic Opposing Point Guard Statistics, Per-Game, By Orlando Starter, 2009-10 NBA Season
Magic StarterMinsPtsRebsAstsTOs3FGAFTAeFG%TS%%Ast
Nelson34.418.14.55.52.43.44.350.2%53.9%27.4
Williams33.513.63.56.71.92.73.246.0%51.1%32.1

No, Jameer Nelson doesn't come out looking great here, does he? It's hard to ignore the shooting percentage splits between him and Jason Williams, but there might be an explanation: competition. As the first table suggested, Orlando has struggled with aggressive, high-energy point guards who create for themselves. (aside: who doesn't struggle with them?) Williams didn't face many such players during his 17-game stint starting for Orlando. In fact, he went 4 consecutive games starting against Mike Bibby, Jennings, and Duhon (twice) in which the opposing point guard did not attempt a single free throw! During that stretch, the opposing point guards were assisted on 36.8% of his baskets. Quite a favorable bit of scheduling there.

Again, there are a lot of questions these numbers just can't answer, and variables for which they can't account. Statisticians more qualified to comment than I am probably would be of more use. But this cursory look at the data gives us a clearer idea of the factors that may indicate Orlando will be in for a long night as far as defending point guards is concerned.

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Are there blow by statistics for Jameer?

It’s funny that you conclude the Magic have trouble with pg’s who attack off the dribble and Jameer seems to struggle mightily stopping guards off the dribble. And has for most of his career.

The thing is though, Jameer’s defensive struggles shouldn’t be as much of a concern as his very mediocre shooting so far. Jameer’s value has never been about defense, where he has often struggled throughout his career (despite pronouncements last season that he had become an “above average” defender, whatever that means). Rather, Jameer’s value, at his best, was as a shotmaking, efficiently scoring point guard whose TO numbers didn’t kill you. Ultimately, if Jameer can’t be that sort of player offensively, then overall his value is quite limited. You might as well take your pick between someone like Jason Williams/Rafer Alston and Jameer — there isn’t that big of a difference, as the numbers and observations would indicate.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 3, 2010 3:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I assume by "pronouncements", you mean "statistics"?

You mean “there is a record of what actually happened in those games, and the record shows that what actually happened last season was opposing point guards playing quite poorly indeed against Jameer”?

Because if you’re going to keep going in this general vein, it would be very helpful if you resolved to say what you meant.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 3, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've been clear.

Jameer’s game has never been about defense - not this year, not last year, not any year. He outplayed opposing pg’s last year on a reliable basis with fantastic shooting performances, efficient scoring, and taking care of the ball. Jameer’s inability to do that so far this year should be the big concern. What are you having trouble with about that?

Regarding you “pronouncing” that Jameer is a good defensive player based upon statistics from last year, I’ll only tell you to check your stats. The consensus is that defensive stats are not far enough along yet to paint an accurate picture. So for you or anyone else to tell me that Jameer is an “above average” defender based on your “statistics” is not convincing. Not only that, but it doesn’t mean anything. Is Turk an above average defender? Well, last year you and your statistics would have proudly told me ‘yes, absolutely.’ But does that mean you can put Turk on a bad defensive team and he’ll make them better? No it doesn’t, as we’ve seen. Can you put Jameer on an average defensive team and expect that team’s defense to improve? Almost certainly not. So how is he above average? What are you really saying? Not all that much.

There’s only a few game changing defenders in the league. Dwight, Garnett, Duncan, Lebron when he’s asked, Gerald Wallace perhaps — guys like that. For everyone else, the team they play on, the schemes that are run, and overall effort determines their effectiveness. Maintaining that Jameer is an above-average defender is dumb. Especially now.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 3, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What Jameer are you expecting?
He outplayed opposing pg’s last year on a reliable basis with fantastic shooting performances, efficient scoring, and taking care of the ball. Jameer’s inability to do that so far this year should be the big concern.

I respectfully disagree. Pre-knee injury Nelson, this year, was shooting 44%FG and 42%3pt on 11.4 and 3.4 attempts, respectively. 5.5 apg with 2.4 TOs. All those numbers are really close to his career averages (but below his other-worldly 1st half of last season). I think we might chalk up the higher TO rate to new teammates and would expect it to settle down over the course of 82 games.

In the 6 games since his return he’s had 2 stellar and 4 no-so-stellar games. Again, can’t part of that be that he’s still working back into form (maybe came back a little early) and still learning the team? And I don’t think many expected Jameer to maintain last year’s numbers into this season….Eddy and Ben have both repeatedly said as much.

So, if the number of games where he struggles continues to outweigh the number of games where he’s solid, I share your “big concern.” But as it stands, I’m having trouble with you jumping right to having a big concern.

by magicfaninTN on Jan 3, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The difference between 2.4 TOPG and 2.0 TOPG over 10 games is...

…4 turnovers. Sure, you could chalk it up to Rashard, or you could chalk it up to November, but I’d chalk it up to “hey, 4 turnovers over the course of 10 games happens.” There’s plenty of passes the guy makes… if one more of them every 80 minutes or so happens to find its way into the wrong hands, I’m willing to assume that might be a fluke.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 3, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I never said I was concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if Jameer gets hot shooting the ball.

What I said was that the scrutiny regarding Jameer’s game should be over his shooting struggles rather than his defensive struggles. The reason being that if Jameer isn’t shooting well, he’s not very valuable as a player. I’m sure he can play better defensively (how could he play worse?), but the biggest reason he is struggling overall is because he’s shooting so poorly - 42% FG and 36% 3pt. makes him very mediocre And 44% from the field probably isn’t good enough either.

By the way, I love how everybody wants to point to last season to affirm what Jameer’s capable of and that at the same time talk about how last season was an “outlier” and he was bound to “regress to the mean.” You can’t have it both ways. The truth is Jameer needs to be pretty darn close to the player he was last year to avoid just being a middle of the pack pg at best.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 3, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

44% is pretty damn good...

…if a lot of those shots are high-percentage threes. That’s actually the one thing that concerns me about Jameer — why is he not shooting more threes? I mean, part of it is the same reason Dwight and Rashard aren’t shooting enough of what THEY shoot… Carter’s a huge ball stopper. But look at the stats… Jameer has shot 130 twos to only 55 threes. He needs to get out there and get those numbers a little closer.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 3, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well,, it's all dependent on the percentage of those shots that are threes.

If (for example) Jameer shot all threes, 44% would be a good percentage. If (as is the case) he’s shooting around 30% threes and 70% twos…

…you know, forget it. I’m trying to say field goal percentage is dependent on shot type, but we all know that. There are plenty of more accurate statistics to express scoring efficiency — use those.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 3, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Point being that 44 is not that far off of the career 46%

But I’m beginning to feel that there is no convincing you, yes? But that’s fine for you to not be too happy with Nelson. He’s not in top form, but IMO, Jameer on the court is not the problem right now with the Magic either offensively or defensively…..lots of blame to put in other places.

by magicfaninTN on Jan 3, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Guys . . . it's simple . . . Jameer is playing poorly.

Just accept it. You’re trying to say otherwise?

by CaliFlorida on Jan 3, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For his standards, Nelson is having a bad season.

There’s no denying it.

That being said, I’m more concerned with the fact he’s regressed defensively than offensively. I’m not surprised at the fact his offensive numbers have scaled back because that was expected to happen. It wasn’t expected for Nelson to suddenly struggle on the defensive side of the ball. And in the Eastern Conference, where the Magic have no margin for error, that can’t happen. Either Jameer needs to start shooting lights-out to make up for the loss on defense or he needs to step up his defense.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 3, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You expected his offensive numbers to regress to where they are now?

Granted, they should pick up (hopefully). But so far, we’ve seen a drastic regression.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 3, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I expected a regression, but not one this extreme.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 3, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But cutting out the four games immediately following the injury...

…have we seen a “drastic regression”? Because at least as far as the shooting goes, I don’t think it could be reasonably argued that that phrase would apply to Jameer’s October-November performance.

(And of course, even when you add in Jameer’s last six post-injury games, he’s just about exactly as efficient a scorer as Carter. Which means that if Jameer has been HAVING a drastic regression, then Vince IS a drastic regression. And Vince has played twice as many games too…)

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 4, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Carter has regressed too, but Nelson has more.

I would have to look at the numbers to see what Jameer’s numbers would look like without the four games mentioned.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They look like this:

29.6 MPG
56/126 FG (44.44%)
16/38 3FG (42.1%)
23/29 FT (79.3%)
151 points (13.73 per game)

50.8% EFG%
54.4% TS%

61 assists (5.55 per game)
26 turnovers (2.36 per game)
12 steals (1.1 per game)
1 block

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 4, 2010 2:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I mean...

…okay, it’s only 11 games. (And under 30 MPG, due largely to the two October blowouts, which may be one reason the numbers are down.) But these are by no means awful or alarming stats.

Seriously, those four December injury games are dragging the guy’s stats down to ridiculous levels. Remember, they’re 1/4 of his season so far.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 4, 2010 2:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Those shooting percentages are average.

Which isn’t bad, but could be better.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 2:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah... they don't strike me as problematic, though.

Especially considering the early season, the new player adjustments, the absence off Shard, etc. There could be plenty of reasons for Jameer to be off a tick.

(For that matter, it could just be bad luck.)

Oh, well — I suppose we’ll see this month. Jameer looks recovered and ready to… do whatever he’s going to do.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 4, 2010 3:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nelson has time.

As does the rest of the team.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are there blow by statistics for Jameer?

Finally, some one questioning Nelson’s defense capabilities. For the last 3 years I have been questioning if he could guard his grandmother. Nelson is a fantastic dribbler, average shooter, and average passer. Forget the wins and loses, just look at his performance on defense. I’m not a Nelson hater but I think he probably would be good coming off the bench. Magic needs a point guard!

by far-way on Jan 3, 2010 4:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The thing is, he was a strong defender last year.

Look at the stats — opposing point guards struggled vs. Jameer last year. Now, is some of that the Magic’s team defense as a whole? Sure. But I’d say a lot of it was Jameer.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 3, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he was on fire but he was wide open

I agree with you that rose played out of his mind last night, but he was also wide open on every jumper he took. last year, that would have been fine, but rose certainly has an improved jumper, and once he proved last night he was shooting well, you would think jameer would at least try to contest.

by nickswarriors16 on Jan 3, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As was said on the previous post by Ben...

Rose was shooting 38% on shots outside of 10 feet coming into that game. That’s a percentage you’ll live with. Last night, he shot much better than that. Same thing applies with Johnny Flynn on the game before.

by slickw143 on Jan 3, 2010 11:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, incorrect again.

Jason Williams employed the exact same defense against Rondo when the Magic beat the Celtics in Boston earlier this year. That game, Rondo couldn’t get any shots to fall and couldn’t finish in the paint either. Most of the time giving up low percentage shots will work. But, as percentages are wont to do, sometimes you’ll get bit in the ass. You take those and live with them, unless you have unrealistic expectations that things are going to go your way all of the time. Any smart scheme will always call for the player to shoot the lowest possible percentage shot and live with it.

The Magic have had a fair share of outlier performances against them, and not just at the PG position.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 1:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well as long as Jason Williams does it . . .

Thanks for clearing things up so authoritatively. I’m sure you’re absolutely right that it has nothing to do with anything.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 4, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Johnny Flynn hitting 5 3's...

Has nothing to do with anything Jameer Nelson did wrong. Jason Williams would’ve been employing the exact same strategy, because again, you PLAY THE PERCENTAGES. Anyone who’s taken math above 5th grade arithmetic can understand that if the percentage isn’t absolute 100, then sometimes things won’t go your way.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

im not saying the gameplan itself was bad

i just dont understand why after rose proved he was in a groove, SVG didnt tell jameer to get tighter on him.

by nickswarriors16 on Jan 4, 2010 1:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because "in a groove" doesn't exist, maybe?

Statistical evidence shows that the result of one basketball shot has no bearing whatsoever on the likelihood of the next shot’s success. Think of them as coin flips.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 4, 2010 2:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There's no empirical evidence of a playing being "on fire" existing.

There’s been a study done on this phenomenon last year by Sandy Weil.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rose

Played like the #1 pick last night.

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by Wmillion on Jan 3, 2010 9:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

my biggest problem with jameer

does anyone else hate when jameer dribbles into the middle of the floor around the freethrow line and just kind of hops about? its like a worse version of the chris paul move, or the rondo and nash baseline probe because jameer isnt looking to create for others, especially when their standing on the perimeter. I also see a lot of time where in that situation he ends up getting triple teamed and either turns the ball over or forces a pass to a shooter that leaves them out of rhythym. I think if the magic removed that move from their arsenal theyd be in much better shape. it just seems to go against everything they try to do with the inside out, spacing the floor offense. just my opinion, but id like to know what others think

by nickswarriors16 on Jan 3, 2010 7:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I've seen Jameer get a lot of good looks for himself/teammates from that position.

It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...

by 3.3seconds on Jan 3, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

orlando

Has 5 more favorable games, I want to see what Meer does in those games.

FEED THE BEAST!!!
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by Wmillion on Jan 3, 2010 9:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Jameer

I think with Jameer excelling on offense last year helped out his defense against the opponent PG.

by HustlerInc on Jan 3, 2010 11:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree with this. 100%

Nailing shots and attacking guys on offense wears them out and can hurt their confidence. Also, missed shots can lead to easy buckets in transition for guards.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 3, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

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by Wmillion on Jan 4, 2010 1:01 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

A possibility, to be sure.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 2:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Granted he's running around the paint but..

 the rest of the team is standing around… just waiting to see what Jameer is going to do.They need to slash towards the paint, create some open shots and maybe catch an offensive rebound while their at it.

by paching on Jan 3, 2010 11:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

As the old adage goes...

It can take a guy as long as he was out to get back to where he was at before an injury. I’m not worried until after the All-Star break. The last two games he played well, gave up what the scouting report tells you to, playing the percentages.

These kinds of reactions lead me to believe that sports are not better off with the internet. Everyone can say something right away, and fans get so worked up so quickly. With all that’s gone on, we have one more loss than the Celtics, and the same amount of losses as the Cavs. All three teams have issues, all three teams have had bad losses. All of this with a huge roster turnover.

People can talk all they want about a player on the Magic’s individual defense, but the scheme is a team scheme. If one player is going off, it’s typically the responsibility of the team in general to stop that. Jameer’s defensive numbers last year probably looked better than they should because the team collectively was playing better team defense. They look worse now with a small sample size because, to be frank, the team in general is not playing as good defensively. They’ve gotten better, and they have more than half a season still to continue to get better. Quite frankly, I’m encouraged that we’re at the position we are right now considering everything that’s gone wrong. If you stop having ridiculous expectations and look at the big picture, you should be encouraged also.

by slickw143 on Jan 3, 2010 11:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

For some confusing reason, I'm compelled to say I couldn't agree less.

I’m especially unsure why anyone would use the ‘working his way back from an injury’ excuse when Jameer doesn’t even use that excuse himself.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 3, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's not going to use any excuses.

He’s never been one to use excuses, nor will he. But anyone in their right mind will tell you (and anyone who’s ever played a sport as well) that it takes time to get rhythm and timing back with not only yourself, but also your teammates. He’s actually had two good games back-to-back, not even two weeks after coming back.

None of your points have been based in reality. Just drop the crusade against Nelson until he is actually the one to blame for a series of losses.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 1:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You know Meer can silence doubters… play better basketball.

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by Wmillion on Jan 4, 2010 1:13 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

3 good games out of 6 since missing 5 weeks.

That’s better than I would’ve guessed. The two games we lost since he’s been back most certainly cannot be pegged on Nelson. Poor offensive rebounding and putrid shooting from everyone are much bigger candidates for blame.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nope

He isn’t the only problem, not even the biggest problem. D12 inability to dominate on offense is the biggest problem.

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by Wmillion on Jan 4, 2010 1:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And by homer you mean someone looking at things realistically?

Woe is us, we have 9 losses in January, and our starting point has played below his performance the year before after coming off of a major shoulder injury and then knee surgery. I’m sorry that homerism has caused me to not see things clearly.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As said already by 3.3 seconds, 17 games doesn't make a season.

Even with the “so far” added to the end. It’s clear to everyone his numbers aren’t where we’d need to win the title assuming the rest of the players maintain their current pace, but that’s the thing, a lot of players have room for improvement. Vince can shoot better, Rashard could rebound better, Gortat could play better all-around, Dwight’s offensive game needs improvement.

Considering the factors, it’s NOT a bad start to the season so far, not just for Nelson, but for the team in general (and that’s the real important thing, isn’t it?). There’s just no way else to say it. Just because someone isn’t panicking and ripping a player doesn’t make him a homer, it makes him rational. Get some perspective, please.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're condition is improving -- just a little further to go.

You’re at least able to recognize the shortcomings with some of the other Magic players’ this year. It’s a peculiar attachment to Jameer that seems to be preventing you from taking that last step to objective fandom. Don’t worry about it, I went through the same thing with Nick Anderson after the ‘95 finals. It took me years to recognize just how disastrous his 4 free throws were in that series. But in time, I did. You’ll get there too.

by CaliFlorida on Jan 4, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Objective fandom?

You’re shutting yourself off from reality. You’ve got some kind of Chicago sports fan complex, tearing apart anything that’s not perfect and pulling gloom and doom when things are way better than what they were even 3 years ago. This team was .500 3 years ago, worst record in the league 6 years ago. I’d say that’s something to be proud of, instead of bringing up specters of playoffs past like they mean a damn thing anymore.

You have the objective part down, sure, but you are not a fan if you can’t be proud of how the core of this team has grown from a bunch of players no one expected to do anything with, let alone be that || close to being up 3-1 in the Finals last year.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's humorous we're critiquing a team that's 22-9.

Goes to show you the standards have been raised in Orlando, which is good.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 5, 2010 3:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

24-9*

And I agree, it’s really hilarious some times.

by slickw143 on Jan 5, 2010 8:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

24-9, whoops.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 5, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i missed it.

Are you saying Orlando isn’t getting worked by opposing point guards? Meer stats aren’t down?

FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account

by Wmillion on Jan 4, 2010 1:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Two things, which I guess you didn't read.

A.) He missed 5 weeks with a knee injury (which reports said he still had some swelling when he first came back). Numbers will be down, although as pointed out several times, they are down more than one would hope. He’s had back-to-back good games though, but it will be shaky for a few more weeks. Inconsistency is expected when a player is coming back from surgery.

B.) “Getting worked” is not the same as INTENTIONALLY GIVING UP LOW PERCENTAGE SHOTS. If those are made, then you shake your head and hope to have some good luck of your own. Otherwise you take the loss and move on, knowing you would do the same thing 10 times out of 10. Also, again, the Magic have a team defensive scheme that requires everyone to be on the ball. Someone going off for a lot of unassisted points requires more than just the PG (whether it’s Jameer or Williams) to screw up.

by slickw143 on Jan 4, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i get all of that

But in the end no one cares about excuses.

Team has some flaws that need to be corrected. There is time, but the same flaws keep popping up this season.

FEED THE BEAST!!!
Twitter Account

by Wmillion on Jan 4, 2010 1:21 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Good discussion.

I know people are adamant about the issue on both sides of the coin but it’s fun reading everyone’s input.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 2:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Thanks especially to CaliFlorida for the well-reasoned and thoughtful contributions.

by gift of the magi on Jan 4, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's been passionate but respectful.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

JUst play with great energy

Thats our biggest problem, I believe if we came out with energy and played hard we would be awesome, forget the percentages, forget the defense, forget everything but the energy. I believe if we came out playing like it was the playoffs every game for 48 min than all these other problems would correct themselves. We have the talent and experience, all we nee now is a killer instinct and it has to start with d12. I am not telling him to stop smiling, he needs to just come out with the killer instinct and carry this team.

by Vanek on Jan 4, 2010 6:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

im not a jameer fan

but i still hope he gets to improve coz he is the starting pg of this team. but to make it fare for him, its not his fault why the magic loss to chicago. a lot of guys really need to step up and play good basketball like what matt barnes did.

in OTIS we TRUST...

by Hbkid on Jan 4, 2010 7:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

im not a jameer fan

I’m not a Nelson fan and never will be unless he can start playing some defense. Defense is a team issue but when he doesn’t then the other four have to pick it up. There is talk about the wins, loses and how many points he scores. You can’t put a win or lose on to one man but it sure would be better is Nelson could guard someone a little better. He could score 70 points and the Magic could win by 90 points. I still say he has a problem guarding his man and the rest of the team has to pick up his inabilities on defense. There is one thing that I have full confidence in, Nelson can dribble. Maybe the Harlem Globetrotters will be next. Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one.

by far-way on Jan 4, 2010 9:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nelson played above-average defense last year but regressed.

There’s still time for Jameer to get back, somewhere, to the player he was this past season.

I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.

"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat

by erivera7 on Jan 4, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is not a new problem

The young point guards roses or rondos, Chris Paul always seem to kill us the last few years we need a point or combo guard who is a good defender can come off the bench. I cannot think off the top of my head.It has to be someone who is fast 6’3 or more

by GoMagic000 on Jan 4, 2010 6:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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