Orlando Magic News for January 20th: Stan Van Gundy Uses the Same Lineup and Hopes for Different Results
by Evan Dunlap on Jan 20, 2010 6:00 PM EST
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Print- Van Gundy Disappointed With Effort, Howard Promises Results
Magic coach Stan Van Gundy doesn't plan on changing his lineup to counteract his team's slump, if his comments to Tim Povtak are any indication.
"Right now, it's such a teamwide thing -- not playing hard enough or well enough -- that making any (lineup) change would be like throwing something against the wall," Van Gundy said. "If it was one guy, I'd make a change, but it's not one guy. It's teamwide. We're not playing hard enough."
- Halfway through the season, Southeast Division-style
Kelly Dwyer has a suggestion for Van Gundy, though, in this brief summary of what's gone wrong for Orlando this season. Dwyer, you'll recall, wrote extensively about the Magic's disappointing season yesterday.
Vince Carter has fallen off, which would be no big deal if it weren't for the fact that he hasn't realized he's fallen off. Dwight Howard has decided to limit his superhero act to eight of every 10 plays (as opposed to 10 outta 10 from last season), and the team's depth hasn't been utilized properly, both the fault of the players (Brandon Bass, Marcin Gortat) and the coach (why can't Ryan Anderson get more burn?).
After the jump, two links about Vince Carter.
- For Prime Out Loud!
Tom Ziller and Bethlehem Shoals graph the career Player Efficiency Ratings of Kobe Bryant and Vince Carter as part of a larger post about athletically gifted players adjusting their games late in their careers to compensate for their waning athleticism.
Carter's graph is Kobe's in miniature, except for the fact that at age 29, the gulf opens up even further. No player has as intelligently tinkered with his game, and re-learned his movements, as Bryant. That's why he remains well above star level to this day, while Carter trailed off several seasons ago.
- Carter Says No to Shaq's Dunk Contest Idea
To no one's surprise, Carter isn't keen on participating in the Slam Dunk Contest again. Last night, Shaquille O'Neal caused a stir when he said he would convince LeBron James to take part if former dunk champions Carter and Kobe Bryant also entered, with half of the prize money going to earthquake-relief efforts in Haiti. Carter told Povtak after this morning's shootaround, "Nobody should feel obligated to do anything they don't want to do."
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What's the definition of madness again?
Something along the lines of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results…
Also, not surprised about Vince rejecting Shaq’s idea. I thought Shaq’s idea was great, actually, as a fundraiser, but to be honest, I don’t think many want to see present-day Vince in the dunk contest. Or Kobe, for that matter. It would take something like Josh Smith, LeBron, Dwight, guys like that who can still dunk.
That's the definition of insanity.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
LOL, you asked.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Is this the part where Dwight, Jameer & Rashard come together and form like Voltron? They’ve been together the longest and have the most chemistry but maybe changes elsewhere are needed. If SVG isn’t going to make linup changes then just make changes to the shot selection. VC takes 15 shots per game. Limit him to 9, give Dwight 5 of those and Jameer the other 1. Dwight would then be at 14 per game and Jameer 12. Rashard’s at 11.5 and 6.1 of them are 3 pointers. Limit Rashard to 10 per game with a max of 5 3’s a game. Give Anderson those 1.5 shot attempts and it puts him at 9 per game. MP is taking 8 a game and 4 of them are 3’s. Keep him at 8 but limit him to 3 3pt attempts per game.
The lineup can still work but if it’s the same shot selection then it’s going to be the same result. As it stands VC takes 5 3’s a game and shoots 31%, Rashard takes 6 a game at 40% & MP takes over 4 a game at 36%. The Magic are a 3-pt shooting team and proabbaly the best at it but it’s not working right now so why not shoot about 8 less per game and see the result?
"Orlando Magic News: SVG Uses the Same Lineup and Hopes for Different Results"
Is this headline supposed to be extremely sarcastic? Because thats what it seems lmao. :P
Not really, no. It's a summary of the first item in the list, which is what I like to do.
by Evan Dunlap on Jan 20, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
FYI ...
Although Orlando was able to win this evening’s game against Indiana, the Magic’s current rotation won’t be good enough to overcome the likes of Boston or Cleveland down-the-road …
Fixing what is actually wrong with the Orlando Magic
unless significant changes are made to their method of operation.
Cheers
khandor
Thanks for passing that link along, khandor. As always.
I don’t think I agree with those suggestions—Barnes and Williams have come up big for this team, and the second unit thrives with Williams’ open-floor style—but they’re all very thought-provoking.
by Evan Dunlap on Jan 20, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
Ben Q. Rock
1. You’re welcome.
2. Thanks for taking this approach to my ideas about the game. Not every web site owner/operator does and it’s a real pleasure to deal with ones like you who are open-minded, supportive and highly professional.
Kudos to you, sir.
khandor
Wow, that graph in the Shoals article. Wow! and Oh NO!
Somebody needs to show this thing to Carter…..and then to Van Gundy…..and then to Otis. And then Otis needs to get it off the internet before other GMs see it.
http://www.blogcdn.com/nba.fanhouse.com/media/2010/01/kobevince4-tz.jpg
Optimist "Has anybody ever won the championship in December?' ~Otis Smith
Pessimist "A team that hasn't won a thing, littered with players who haven't won jack, giving us the self-satisfied routine. Uh-oh." ~Kelly Dwyer
Realist: "To me, call it what you want, it doesn’t matter. We’re just not playing well." ~Stan Van Gundy
Yeah, that graph is pretty revealing (and quite disturbing for Magic fans).
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
The Dr. Phil Effect
IMO, if a “talent” like Vincent Lamar Carter would have had the opportunity to work under the direction of a leadership expert like Phil Jackson during his NBA career to-date the PER results of a graph like this would have been very different than what you see on that page.
Over the course of their respective careers outstanding NBA “talents” like Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Vinsanity, T-Mac, Wade, Lebron, Melo, Bosh, Durant, Rose, etc., only go as far as their specific coaches are capable of taking them.
khandor
Only Phil Jackson would ever make me consider that line of thinking.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
IMO ...
Outstanding coaches like Pat Riley and Gregg Popovich and Chuck Daly and Dr. Jack Ramsay and Bill Sharman and Red Holtzman and Red Auerbach, etc., all fit into the same category as an accomplished individual practioner like Dr. Phil.
Basketball is essentially a Team Game and all-time great players simply do not become who they are without the benefit of working with all-time great coaches.
khandor
Yeah, but I don't think they're psychologically in-tune like Jackson.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
beg to differ ...
With all due respect, I’d suggest that the opposite is actually more accurate … i.e. they are very much in-tune with the psychological aspects of coaching involved with coaxing maximal level performances from individual players and a team [collectively], in general, under their direction, in a way which is remarkably similar to the ZenMaster, albeit in their own unique style [according to their own personality].
Not every coach has a well articulated “vision” of the way he would like his team to perform/play, when its operating at its Maximal Capacity For Excellence, but almost all cases great ones definitely do, in conjunction with the actual ability [knowhow required?] to make this happen for a group of men/women.
khandor
Stan does fine on the motivation side.
You’ve got to acknowledge that it is not all on the coach. Motivation is a two-way street. Coaches can coax (or threaten), but players have got to respond and talent has to be part of the equation. As a counterpoint to your argument, Adam Morrison is on the Lakers…..bench.
Maximal Capacity for Excellence??? Now that sounds like jargon.
"Has anybody ever won the championship in December?' ~Otis Smith *** "To me, call it what you want, it doesn’t matter. We’re just not playing well." ~Stan Van Gundy *** "A team that hasn't won a thing, littered with players who haven't won jack, giving us the self-satisfied routine. Uh-oh." ~Kelly Dwyer
by magicfaninTN on Jan 22, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
1. Motivation, per se, is only one elment of the psychological aspect of the game that’s required from a top notch NBA coach. Developing relationships with the players and then being able to use each one in the proper/best way possible to extract maximal performance from the group, as a whole, is what’s involved in the Art & Science of Coaching, in the NBA.
2. On the Lakers’ bench is precisely where a player like Adam Morrison belongs, if he has a roster spot at all in the NBA.
3. Maximal Capacity for Excellence is exactly what I mean. :-)
e.g. Last season, IMO, the Lakers and the Rockets both succeeded in this way, and the appropriate credit should be given to their respective coaches. The year before, the Celtics and the Hornets were the two teams that fit into this specific category; etc.
khandor
With this linuep
“Jameer Nelson, PG
Vince Carter, OG
Rashard Lewis, SF
Ryan Anderson, PF
Dwight Howard, C
in conjunction with the following set of Key Subs off the bench:
Anthony Johnson, PG
JJ Redick, OG
Mickael Pietrus, SF
Brandon Bass, PF
Marcin Gortat, C
and the following list of Reserves/Extras/Outs:
Jason Williams, PG
Matt Barnes, SF
Adonal Foyle, C"
1) It would force Rashard to guard LeBron & Pierce. If Orl made it through the East Rashard would probably then be looking at Kobe or Melo.
2) The second lineup would then have basically J.J. and MP as the only legit outside threat. AJ can knock down 3’s but teams will give him that shot all day and live with the result. I think the second unit would have severe offensive struggles, especially against Boston & Cleveland’s defense.
3) It would be sending 2 of the Magic’s most productive players this season in Barnes and J. Will to the reserve bench. Barnes rebounding at the SF position is absolutely vital as he outrebounds PF Rashard by 1 per game on 8.5 less minutes per game. If Rashard could defend like Barnes then he would be good at SF but he can’t so it makes Barnes a must at SF. AJ’s only upside is that he’s a better defender, generally has a better shot selection and makes less passing mistakes. AJ can’t push the floor like J. Will, can’t breakdown a defense as well, can’t shoot the 3 as well, can’t find the cutter as well & can’t throw the lob as well (which should/could be an easy 2-6 pts a game with Dwight Howard).
I think AJ could be helpful in guarding Rondo & Chauncey and it’s something SVG should keep in mind moving forward but only for a max of maybe 12 minutes a game just to see how it works out.
Looking at the data from the Game Log for AJ’s games over 10 mins his numbers against good teams and namely good defenders aren’t real good. Against Utah 4 pts on 1-2 FG, 0-1 3pt, 2-2 FT, 2 boards, 2 Ast, 2 TO in 12 mins. Other Utah game 4 pts on 1-2 FG, 0-1 3pt, 2-2 Ft, 1 board, 1 Ast, 1 TO. Against Boston 0 pts on 0-3 FG, 0-1 3pt, 4 boards, 3 Ast, 3 TO in 15 mins. In those 3 games against better teams and defenders (if Deron & Rondo were the ones guarding him) he Avg 2.7 pts on 29% FG, 0% 3pt, 2 Ast & 2 TO. Rebounding stats at the PG position are irrelevent unless it’s Rondo or Kidd.
I still like our current lineup with a different shot selection and far less TO’s. More Dwight shots, less VC shots and more facilitating, less MP transition 3’s, less J. Will transition 3’s, etc. Orl shot 4 less 3’s tonight than they’ve avg the past 5 games and it served them well as did feeding the beast inside. That 1-13 from 3-pt stat further supports shot selection. 9-13 the first half, at some point early the players need to recognize that 3’s aren’t falling and pass them up for something better. The 3 ball/shot selection nearly cost them a 29 pt lead tonight. If Bass was playing we would’ve shot less 3’s in the 2nd half and possibly won more comfortably but would Bass have been able to be part of that 29 pt first half lead? I’m just not sure and think the problem is as simple as poor shot selection and lack of effort on a consistent basis so I really don’t like any major lineup changes right now. Let us again evaluate 9 games from now.
Warlando,
Thanks for your response to my multi-pronged line-up adjustments for the Magic.
1. Yes, Lewis would be checking Pierce and Lebron, etc.,, at different times during a specific game.
A. Rashard is capable of handling this assignment with the likes of Dwight Howard protecting the basket behind him. Lewis’ extra size would make forays to the basket more difficult for opponents like Pierce and Lebron and provide better rebounding for the Magic, as a whole, since he becomes a much better rebounder when allowed to perform this task from this specific defensive position, as opposed to PF.
B. Once the starting unit finishes its initial shift, Mickael Pietrus would in all likelihood draw the assignment vs Pierce/Boston and Lebron/Cleveland … i.e. with Lewis sliding over to check Ray Allen/Boston and Anthony Parker/Cleveland:
BOSTON: Rondo + Allen + Pierce + Garnett + Perkins
CLEVELAND: Williams + Parker + James + Hickson/Varejao + O’Neal/Ilgauskas
vs
1. Nelson + Carter + Lewis + Anderson/S + Howard [4 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
2. Nelson + Lewis + Pietrus + Anderson/S + Howard [4 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
3. Nelson + Carter + Pietrus + Anderson + Howard [4 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
-———————————————————————————————-
4. Nelson + Carter + Lewis + Bass + Howard [3 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
5. Nelson + Lewis + Pietrus + Bass + Howard [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
6. Nelson + Carter + Pietrus + Bass + Howard [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
-———————————————————————————————-
7. Nelson + Carter + Lewis + Anderson + Gortat [4 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
8. Nelson + Lewis + Pietrus + Anderson + Gortat [4 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
9. Nelson + Carter + Pietrus + Anderson + Gortat [4 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
=========
10. Johnson + Carter + Lewis + Anderson + Howard [3 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
11. Johnson + Lewis + Pietrus + Anderson + Howard [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
12. Johnson + Carter + Pietrus + Anderson + Howard [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
-———————————————————————————————-
13. Johnson + Carter + Lewis + Bass + Howard [2 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
14. Johnson + Lewis + Pietrus + Bass + Howard [2 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
15. Johnson + Carter + Pietrus + Bass + Howard [2 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
-———————————————————————————————-
16. Johnson + Carter + Lewis + Anderson + Gortat [3 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
17. Johnson + Lewis + Pietrus + Anderson + Gortat [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
18. Johnson + Carter + Pietrus + Anderson + Gortat [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
=========
19. Johnson + Redick + Lewis + Anderson + Howard [3 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
20. Johnson + Redick + Pietrus + Anderson + Howard [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
-———————————————————————————————-
21. Johnson + Redick + Lewis + Bass + Howard [2 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
22. Johnson + Redick + Pietrus + Bass + Howard [2 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
-———————————————————————————————-
23. Johnson + Redick + Lewis + Anderson + Gortat [3 shooters; Lewis checks Pierce/James]
24. Johnson + Redick + Pietrus + Anderson + Gortat [3 shooters; Pietrus checks Pierce/James]
With the quality of shooter and defender/rebounders that Orlando would have on the floor when they cycle through their rotation vs Boston and Cleveland, the Magic would not be hurt be shifting Rashard Lewis to the SF position in their starting line-up.
[Please Note: Lewis would actually check Pierce/James in only 9 of the above scenarios; while Pietrus would have this assignment in 15 of the above scenarios.]
2. What you should be able to see from the above list of five-man units is that there would only be 2 scenarios in which Redick + Pietrus are the 2 shooters on the floor for Orlando, if they make the line-up adjustments I’ve suggested. 2 out of 24 is a percentage use which the Magic should be very pleased to live with, given the benefits which are associated with the other 22 scenarios.
3. The fact that Matt Barnes and Jason Williams have been “productive” individual players for the Magic, so far, this season should NOT be confused with a perception that believes their level of “individual productivity” has led to an acceptable level/degree of “Team Success” for Orlando. The fact is … that it has not led to this at all.
If SVG actually makes the line-up adjustments which I’ve suggested what you’ll find is that your favourite team ACTUALLY WINS MORE GAMES in the aftermath compared to what they did when Barnes and Williams were putting up “better individual production numbers” versus the players who take their respective spots in the Magic new and improved rotation.
Basketball is a game of Team Productivity not individual productivity.
re: changing a team’s pattern of “shot selection”
This does not happen on own.
This usually happens when a team has its regular rotation re-organized by its coach and its offensive emphasis placed on a different set of specific players within each five-man unit.
khandor
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