Orlando Magic 113, Atlanta Hawks 81: The Morning After
by erivera7 on Jan 10, 2010 12:00 PM EST
in The Morning After
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Vince Carter May Move Into Sixth-Man Role
Tim Povtak of NBA FanHouse shares some interesting news regarding Vince Carter's role with the Orlando Magic in the immediate future.No one really believes that J.J. Redick is a better player than Vince Carter.
To be honest, I think moving Carter to the bench and Redick to the starting lineup would be a good move. More often than not in the NBA, it's not always about starting the five best players on a team. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Rather than ramble on, I'll share more of my thoughts in a write-up early next week.
But he might be a better fit now for the Orlando Magic. [...]
It was Saturday's victory that now has Magic Coach Stan Van Gundy seriously contemplating a lineup change that would include using Carter in reserve, a dramatic role change for one of the league's most popular players.
"Nobody is set (in the lineup) if you're losing,'' Van Gundy said. "You can only take losing for so long, then you do what you have to do.'' -
Orlando Magic breaks 4-game losing streak to win without Vince Carter
Brian Schmitz comments on the Magic's victory against the Hawks.The Magic had such an easy time of it that center Dwight Howard didn't play the final period. He finished with 12 points, seven rebounds, three blocks and one technical foul.
Orlando pushed the lead to 38 points in the third on Barnes' 3-point shot in Orlando's largest margin of victory this season.
"We were hungry," Howard said, adding. "We didn't eat on the plane ride home from Washington."
All kidding aside, the Magic had lost to Chicago, Indiana, Toronto and the Wizards — with only the Raptors boasting a record over .500. "Nobody is perfect. You're going to hit bumps in the road," forward Rashard Lewis said. "We put a little pressure on ourselves, especially on the offensive end." -
J.J. Redick scores 17 points as he takes the place of injured Vince Carter in the Orlando Magic starting lineup
Josh Robbins talks about how, so far this year, J.J. Redick has been a constant for Orlando and usually plays well whether the team wins or loses.J.J. Redick's consistently strong play has been one of the few constants so far this season for the Orlando Magic. Even as the team slogged through its recent four-game losing streak, Redick continued to play well. [...]
"I've said it all along: He's just a guy that I think we've come to trust," Magic coach Stan Van Gundy said afterward. "He's not going to make mistakes. He's a tough guy. He's gonna compete hard."
Redick displayed his competitive streak Saturday on a relatively meaningless play long after the game's outcome had been decided. With just under 10 minutes remaining and Orlando ahead by 26 points, Redick missed a 3-pointer from the right wing. The ball started to go out of bounds, but Redick chased it down. The Magic retained possession, and Ryan Anderson drained a shot from beyond the arc.
"If I'm out there, I'm going to try to play hard," Redick said. "The score doesn't matter. I'm trying to prove myself as a player, regardless of the score on the scoreboard." -
Dwight Howard’s jump shot is real
Tania Ganguli makes note of Dwight Howard attempting a jumpshot against Atlanta and how general manager Otis Smith is encouraging him to shoot them. -
Denton: Magic-Hawks Postgame Analysis
John Denton of OrlandoMagic.com provides additional analysis.The Magic (25-12) snapped the first four-game skid of the Stan Van Gundy era in Orlando by placing seven players in double figures, hitting 12 3-pointers and exploding for 37 points in a runaway second quarter. It was enough to help the Magic spring ahead by as much as 38 points.
And finally there were some laughs and plenty of sighs relief when the game and the losing streak were complete.
``That’s about as happy as I’ve been with a regular-season win in a long time,’’ Magic coach Stan Van Gundy said. ``It seemed like a month or a month-and-a-half since we had won a game. Even better is we played really well against a very good team.’’ -
Magic drown Hawks
Ken Sugiura of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution notes how the Magic have been a nightmare, matchup-wise, for the Hawks.The Hawks have lost five in a row to Orlando, whose combination of center Dwight Howard's interior presence and a fleet of perimeter shooters has confounded them. It was exactly a year ago, in fact, that the Magic crushed the Hawks by a similar 121-87 score in Orlando.
"We really struggle against this team," center Al Horford said. "They just seem to have it going every time they play against us. We have to figure it out." [...]
"We knew that coming into this one tonight, they were going to give us everything they had," said Hawks guard Joe Johnson. [...]
"Our defensive assignments, we messed up a few times, but I think more than anything, I think a lot of it was just effort," Johnson said. "They were just beating us off the dribble and pretty much getting what they wanted."
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Really impressed with the performance last night.
I guess the awesome shooting from the field was just regression after the past few games, but SVG was right: the fast-break points, forced turnovers, and rebounds were evidence of the hustle that had been missing as of late. The 3-pt shots will either fall or not, but the aspects of the game that the Magic had the most control over were also being taken care of.
At one point Matt Guokas said that he thought the Magic needed to face a tougher team in order to pump themselves up to their potential. If that’s true, then it bodes really well for the playoffs. Still, we need to take care of the fundamentals EVERY night, not just for the bigger games.
YAY JJ
Man it makes me happy to see him working his ass off and becoming a good player!
"Memphis then used a pick-and-roll to get Conley free and he drove past Shaquille O'Neal for the go-ahead layup."
JWill
Didn’t anybody notice that JWill had the ball down court before the Hawks set up their defense? That left a lot of players wide open. How did all those guys get those points? Figure it out.
atlanta's problem
horford at center. i went to uf and love him, but what a bad matchup against any decent center. he is a powerforward and is getting screwed having to play against d howard
i take your signatures and use them as away messages
Yeah, he's playing out of position...
…but how many teams have really solid centers? 8? 10? If I’m the Hawks, I’m just glad I have a good player who I can put out there at center, even if it’s not ideal.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
i would like to see carter come off the bench
he would be an awesome sixth man. the starting lineup needs more glue and less glitter
Nah' mean, nah'm sayin
I disagree.
Benching Lewis wouldn’t be smart.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Really considering it? How does it make any sense to do that when you know you’re gonna need those 4 All Stars at the end of games anyways. This is not a MP to 6th man role situation. You must bite the troubles now so that Jameer, VC, Lewis, Dwight can play great with each other consistently in the playoffs. So we keep slumping through the next 20 games, they’ll eventually get each other or force themselves too. This is not a problem to try to short term fix. I don’t see JJ’s hustle and size meaning much in a playoff matchup and I kinda wonder what happens to all the elite matchups (outside of ATL) we’ve had if we statistically took out VCs production. And pleaseee tell me in all seriousness a JJ or Barnes or whoever can get those kind of shots and plays that VC does on a basketball level. Hehe, end rant!
by derekk on Jan 10, 2010 2:21 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Where does it say Carter can't finish games as a sixth-man?
Just because he were to come off the bench doesn’t mean he can’t finish games.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Pietrus came off the bench for us in the playoffs.
But he was finishing a lot of games for us too. Jason Terry finishes almost every game for the Mavericks. It would be more of a move for the rotation rather than a condemnation of Vince himself. Pietrus/Barnes, Gortat, Williams, Anderson and Redick, that’s not a lineup that has someone you can run an offense through for the second unit.
I actually kinda think it would be a good idea to have Vince come in as the 6th man also, I just don’t think that will happen. Who knows though?
I meant more that we know VC is going to finish games but we are still cutting a ton of minutes from playing with the starters and you’re still left with a offense of 1on1 later in the season/playoffs when VC and starters really need to be comfortable with each other and have excellent ball movement to score on some insanely good defenses out there i.e. Cle, Bos, Lal.
by derekk on Jan 10, 2010 7:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You could argue the flip side, though.
This gives Carter MORE time to get comfortable with playing alongside the second unit. And if this works out, and he stays as the sixth man, then THAT’s experience he needs.
And I wouldn’t get too wacky about worrying about the guys not playing together. If Vince plays 35 minutes and, say, Dwight plays 35 minutes, there’s no way you can arrange it where they won’t be on the floor for AT LEAST 22 minutes. Repeat for the other starters.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
He needs the experience of playing a close playoff game and SVG is trying to pump all the minutes from the starters he can get. You want your most versatile weapon to know how to play with that very efficiently. I can deftly concede that you’re right about the minutes because VC would still play with the starters alot. He’d still be getting cut some critical minutes with the starters and the Magic would still be putting him in a constant 6th man scorer role as opposed to the mentality that VC must use as a starter where he can also thrive. Who knows tho, maybe if we saw VC in the 6th role he’d get out of his slump easier and he’d actually play better and it’d make more sense to get back into the lineup.
by derekk on Jan 11, 2010 3:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's the thing... whatever's going on with him is clearly mental.
I know he’s a year older — but you don’t shoot 44-45% with NJ one year and 39% with Orlando the next. Nobody loses THAT much talent in a season. Which is good news — this can be turned around, but it needs to be turned around. He needs to stop forcing shots and work within the offense, which he can do, but hasn’t so far. And this has as good a chance of doing that as anything.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
I like the Carter as sixth man idea.
It doesn’t mean he has to play less minutes, even — it just means he’d log more minutes against the opposing teams’ backups and tired starters. Which means some of these low-quality circus shots he’s been taking… well, maybe he’d be able to push those lesser defenders into making those decent-percentage shots. I mean, a 45% shooting Carter would be a ggreat asset, even if his distribution didn’t improve drastically. 39% shooting carter, not so much.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
It's a great idea and a perfect time to try it - middle of the regular season.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I guess I'm open to the idea of Carter coming off the bench as 6th man
…considering that Nelson, Carter, Lewis, and Howard have been so inconsistent from game to game when all 4 of them have started together.
"Orlando Magic... 2009 Eastern Conference Champions"
by Mike from Illinois on Jan 11, 2010 4:04 AM EST up reply actions
i like the idea of trying it out
I think this could definitely work in a Ginobili type of way. It is always nice having that playmaking ability off of the bench. Just because he is coming off of the bench doesn’t mean that he isn’t gonna get good minutes. I think our starting lineup may be better off with a roleplayer like JJ instead of VC. Then have VC come in and trash their reserves and have fresh legs for the 4th quarter. I don’t know if it will work, but it is worth a try and for a team like us that is what the regular season is for. I think the biggest problem with this might just be the team chemistry. I understand that VC is a good teamplayer, but for someone who has been a perenial all-star and the #1 focus of the team he could become quite disgruntled.
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
I don't think Carter is disgruntled.
I haven’t heard or seen nothing of the sort. That being said, it is an experiment worth trying.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
neither have i
i am just saying if he were put in this role, over time i could see him becoming unhappy. Not that it will happen, but is something to worry about. So far he seems to have been a great teammate.
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on Jan 10, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Carter has said in the past he'll do whatever it takes to win.
I think if he’s up to it, he could be a dynamic sixth-man for the Magic.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
At least while he’s in a shooting slump, he should be cool with it. Wins or not, if it drags on and he becomes a permanent 6th man…I don’t know if that’ll fly with him. I may be wrong. As for JJ, all this does is push the price up for him this offseason. Not like the Magic will be serious players in retaining him though.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
I wouldn't say that.
I think there’s a reasonable chance Redick returns next year.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Anyone think that if Carter plays off the bench, then Jameer Nelson should too?
Jason Williams obviously has been meshing well with everyone and is more a ball pusher. If SVG wanted energy I’d put him in the starting lineup.
It sounds ridiculous to have two All-Stars coming off the bench (!), but if SVG is looking for effective lineup changes I don’t see why Jameer is immune.
one or the other
is what i was thinking. at first i thought jameer should come off the bench so williams could start, but then i read the article suggesting maybe carter should. i dont care who plays when so long as we are controlling the way the game is played.
Nah' mean, nah'm sayin
I don't think that's necessary.
Stan Van Gundy openly stated that, for whatever reason, all four All-Stars can’t coexist with each other but when there’s three of them playing at the same time, the Magic are successful. Given Carter’s skill-set, it would make the most sense for him to come off the bench because it would give Orlando a defined scorer. Someone that can be a playmaker in the second unit but finish games with the starters if necessary.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I think the reason Vince would be more of a candidate than Jameer is continuity.
A.) Jameer’s been playing with the team for several years now and is familiar with the system, moreso than Vince.
B.) Jameer seems to work better with Dwight than anyone else on the team. He’s the only one who even throws alleys to Dwight anymore now that Hedo is gone.
Nelson certainly isn’t immune to being benched, but his play wasn’t been even one of the main reasons the Magic hit that slump. As has been pointed out before, the Magic were not playing well even before he came back. They just were squeaking by in the games they did win, while also losing to some good teams (i.e. back-to-back against Utah and Phoenix). Part of Williams’ effectiveness so far this year is because the second unit does not want to get into a half-court game like the starters do, so him pushing the ball, feeding Gortat for a transition dunk or Anderson/Redick for a transition 3 works better than just feeding the ball to Dwight on the post or running the PnR.
I think
that starting JJ is a great idea. But as much good as Barnes did last night, I think Carters much better and should start at the 3. Remember when we had the JJ, Carter lineup? Vince is better all around than matt, and JJ is playing too effectively this year to be stuck on the bench
j-will is good but he gets tired if he plays to many minutes back to back
he is a great player off the bench and i agree that having Carter come in with the second unit could work really well as long as he is still going to be our finisher, Because i dont see carter being in a slump much longer, i still think we should give him a game or two when he comes back as a starter to see how it works!?!
I don't like that idea, as appealing as it sounds.
The reason why is because its takes a wing defender out of the starting lineup. Redick isn’t a liability on defense but it’s not his strength, either. As for Carter, he can’t really guard opposing small forwards.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Redick
this is a bit off topic, but it is amazing how much improvement JJ has made on defense since his rookie season. I think he has had that “hustle” mentality since he came into the league, but now he knows how to harness it effectively.
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
by Matt Bishoff on Jan 10, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
He was right there last year... just had a shooting slump.
But now, he’s got the shooting AND everything else going. He’s made a real player of himself.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
Carter and the flow of the game...
I agree with Carter coming off the bench. He can even finish games, if he’s fresh and effective. And also, we can’t carry this so far as to bench BOTH Cater AND Lewis at the same time… starting games, that is. But for COLLECTIVE defense, take a good look at all those busy hands… Mp, Gartat, Redick, JWill, and how MANY turnovers they generated!
Derekk, the Magic thrive on Team chemistry and coop play, NOT individual heroics, because frankly we DON’T have a Kobe Bryan to bail us out with 35 points… EACH NIGHT! We CAN’T stick to some loss-loss-loss-loss lineup formula, just because it’s full of our potential All-Stars. Four is ENOUGH… can’t “hang” around for it to become 9 or 10 losses…
We HAVE to stick to WHAT WORKS!!! It’s THAT simple; and what works RIGHT NOW, is: 1.) Barnes starting at the 3, with his great weak-side movment and team defense-rebounding, 2.) Redick starting at the 2, with his keen eye, crisp passing, deadly pick-your-poison offense and solid, if not spectacular individual AND collective defense, 3.) Nelson starting with Lewis, for continuity and JWill and Anderson coming off the bench to take the Team to the next level, either individualy or as part of the second unit. Same for Carter and MP. THe point IS… we can’t leave a non-performing player in, just becausehe’s a STAR, and he’s SUPPOSED to break out EVENTUALLY!
The beauty of it is… we DON’T have to ANYMORE!!!
Some great points and I don’t want VC to be heroic, just to get how to play the most efficient with the starters, not continually hide it by playing 6th man scorer.
by derekk on Jan 11, 2010 2:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oh, yeah...
Howard should try his 15-footer at least two or three times each game… til it sticks, which I KNOW, IT WILL!!!
Can’t be afraid… or discouraged, tough… No, sir. NO WAY; NO HOW!!!
KEEP IT UP BIG MAN!
Dwight Duncan
I’ve rarely ever seen him make one in warmups, much less in a game. He should try making a jump hook or a free throw first.
I don’t want to see Vince Carter coming off the bench. He’s the difference maker that decides whether Orlando is a very good regular season team or a legitimate contender. They need his scoring + playmaking offensively in order to be an elite offensive team.
The Magic will be fine during most of the regular season with Redick and Barnes (Dwight & Co. create enough space for them against lesser defensive teams to be be successful) but come playoff time when matched up against elite opponents like a Boston or an LA … they’ll be a liability and the Magic’s starting unit will consistently put the team in a deficit.
Carter can score/be a playmaker whether it's off the bench or in the starting lineup.
I think people get too caught up in titles and don’t realize that it doesn’t matter whether you start or not.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Personally, I think it’s too early to even be contemplating taking one of Orlando’s stars off the bench.
They’ve had what? 10 games together?
Between the Nelson injury and the Lewis suspension. And for most of that stretch they’ve suffered a bad stretch in form + Vince has played his worst basketball of the season.
It seems like an extreme reaction. Too early to go in this direction.
I don't think it's too early.
I think it’s an opportune time to experiment while the season is still relatively young.
I write for Orlando Pinstriped Post and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
But Vince has struggled without Lewis. He's struggled without Nelson.
And then he’s struggled with both of them on the court. It’s been a constant — Vince’s shooting has been inaccurate all season. It’s not 10 games, it’s 30+.
It's a good thing Larry Bird's initials weren't MJ. '80s basketball was confusing enough -- Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Marles Jarkley, Mominique Jilkins... Makeem Jolajuwon...
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