[Grant Hill] crushed his ankle. Played on it, and obliterated it. All because he didn't want the stigma of taking it easy, of someone thinking of impending contract over current contract. He did it to make us happy, and it ruined his career. Then he tried to come back too early the next fall, after signing with the Magic, in order to make his new fans and new employers happy. And it was too much for the ankle to sustain. Same thing with the aborted early season comebacks in 2001-02, and 2002-03. He just wanted to make others happy, and it ruined his career. Tragic in so many ways.
Kelly Dwyer of Ball Don't Lie lists the top 10 most significant injuries of the past decade, and personally, it's bittersweet reading some of the names who were former Magic players - Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway, Grant Hill, and Tracy McGrady. Makes one grateful to appreciate what Orlando is accomplishing right now.
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erivera7
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It's interesting (and a bit disheartening) that four of the top five are linked to the Magic franchise in one way or another...
Let's observe a moment of silence for CLee, Skip to my Lou, Batman, and The Michael Jordan of Turkey...
Welcome Back Polish Hammer and Adonal Foyle, and Welcome Vinsanity, Ryan Anderson, Brandon Bass, and Matt Barnes!!
Webber was never an actual part of the franchise, if that's who your "fourth" is.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
i think he meant because we drafted him
the “curse”
Thats me chilling with Nick Anderson
by The Magic made Lebron run off the court on Sep 10, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand, but all I stated was that they were linked to the franchise, not that they ever played for the franchise.
Let's observe a moment of silence for CLee, Skip to my Lou, Batman, and The Michael Jordan of Turkey...
Welcome Back Polish Hammer and Adonal Foyle, and Welcome Vinsanity, Ryan Anderson, Brandon Bass, and Matt Barnes!!
Yea, this list reminds me of how epicly bad injuries have been for the Magic. The whole franchise would’ve been viewed differently if just two injured players in the Magic history were healthy/healthier with Penny and Hill. There would’ve been alot more wins and playoffs appearrances for a franchise that somehow mananaged to get a decent number of wins and playoffs appearrances anyways. The real damage was playoff results and potential, couldn’t pass the 2nd round in forever and I actually forgot how dominant Hill even was in his Pistons days.
Penny was "fools gold" as Otis would say.
He wasn’t ever gonna take any franchise anywhere.
That's tough to say...
Penny was never the same after that first injury. I feel like we mostly remember the vastly diminished player of later years — I know that’s who I remember. But before he got hurt and lost a step or two, he was something else entirely.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
But never anything more than a complementary player.
He never was able to lead a team himself. No heart or toughness.
Mickael Pietrus is a complementary player.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
.. who will be a Hall of Famer.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Scottie Pippen was a superstar
I thought you guys was basketball saavy. Pippen was only labeled a complimentary due to Jordan. Pip was not a player that was pedestrian but made better via Jordan.(See most the Cavs now) Pippen is a top 50 all-time basketball superstar who would of been the #1 on 29 of the 30 teams during the time he played. Give the man his props, the compliment of him and Jordan is why the 3peated twice. A feat that will never ever be duplicated IMO, not with salary caps and FA. Before and during the first years of Magic Pippen and Jordan were my two favorite players, watching them was always fun.
Comparing Pietrus and Pippen is just wrong.
Thats me chilling with Nick Anderson
by The Magic made Lebron run off the court on Sep 11, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Complimentary player? Wow.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Penny was never capable of being a #1 option, as he showed when Shaq left
so by definition, he was never more than a complimentary player.
Hmm.
Penny’s numbers in 1997 were fine without Shaq in the regular season (All-NBA Third Team, PER of 21.4, Offensive Rating of 115, etc). In the postseason, Hardaway’s stats were even more ridiculous during his five game series against the Miami Heat which, ultimately, showed the pinnacle of his talent (back-to-back 40+ point games) before his disastrous knee injury a year later. Penny clearly showed he could be the #1 option for the Magic; what derailed him was his knee problems. If you don’t agree, whatever.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Seriously?
You’re going to use ‘96-97 as a year Penny estabished himself as a legit #1 guy? That was a 45 win team. And by the way, the Magic got blown out in Game 5 against the Heat following Penny’s two 40 pt. games. That wasn’t a McGrady era supporting cast Penny was working with either. Horace Grant was still playing well and Darryl had his coming out in that playoff series and caused all sorts of problems for the Heat.
The Sentinel and most media outlets who covered Penny during that era recognized a consensus that Penny was ill-suited to lead a team. Let’s not re-write things. Penny briefly put up some nice stats, but to go back to the original premise, those stats were primarily “fools gold” because Penny demonstrated he couldn’t take a team anywhere. Again, he clearly demonstrated that year a lack of heart, toughness and leadership. Exhibit A — the Brian Hill mutiny Penny put together.
Ultimately, the more accurate thing to say is that Penny’s injury robbed him of the chance to be, at best, a legit 2nd fiddle, i.e. “complementary” (gasp!) player, on a winning ball club. But, whatever.
by CaliFlorida on Sep 11, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Let me put it to you this way
As a Magic fan, at no point have I ever wondered what “might’ve been” — for Penny or the Magic — if Penny hadn’t gotten hurt. When Shaq left it was clear it was over and Penny couldn’t do a thing about it. This was not a Grant Hill situation where it’s so disappointing to look back and wonder what that team could’ve done but for the injury.
by CaliFlorida on Sep 11, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Him being a #1 option and him being a leader are two separate entities.
McGrady was a #1 option with the Magic but I doubt anyone will be quick to call him a leader or anything. I don’t disagree that Hardaway was incapable or unwilling to lead a team, at that point in his career because he was immature, but that doesn’t exclude the fact he became a bonafide #1 option for Orlando.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
That'd be true after his injury, but I'd disagree before his injury.
Penny, in his prime, was one of the best players in the NBA. A revolutionary, to be frank.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
some people was hailing him as the next Magic Johnson
A tall PG with athleticism, a shot and court vision
Thats me chilling with Nick Anderson
by The Magic made Lebron run off the court on Sep 10, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly, and one can't understate the type of impact Penny had on the game.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Using puppets as a marketing tool for sure
Aside from that, I don’t see it. The tall pg thing never stuck and teams have always valued athleticism, shooting and court vision at the 1 and always will. Don’t tell me that’s attributed to Penny.
Athleticism, court vision, and shooting NOT attributed to Penny in his prime.
I’ve officially heard it all.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
No -- of course Penny had all those things -- That's not what I'm saying at all
I’m responding to the idea that Penny “revolutionized” the game by being a “tall PG with athleticism, a shot and court vision.”
That notion is completely bogus. Penny wasn’t a revolutionary player. He was a flash in the plan over 2 to 3 seasons. He’s the NBA equivalent to say Jamal Anderson in the NFL — a player who helped get his teams some wins for a couple years, never won a title, put up some nice individual numbers . . . and that’s it. Players like that are not that historically significant.
So it’s probably best not to attach words like “revolutionary” to someone like Penny. To be frank.
Penny is historically significant.
Ask any of the major NBA stars, today. LeBron, Gilbert, etc.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Ok, just got off the phone with LeBron.
He was like “Penny?, yeah he was cool man. We all watched him back in the day playing with Shaq, making things happen. They had a good team for a second. Lil’ Penny was cool too. I was excited when Nike brought out the Kobe and Lebron puppets cause I remembered how awesome Lil’ Penny was. That guy threw house parties with Tyra Banks man – SI Tyra. Penny as a player? Did he influence my game? Man, I don’t know. I definately first think of guys like Dr. J, Magic of course, Michael. But I don’t know, I was just trying to create my own thing — be my own player. No disrespect but I had bigger fish to fry than Penny Hardaway. He was a nice player but that’s not who I was trying to be.”
I didn’t bother calling Gilbert cause I didn’t know that he had any standing to offer a critique — that’d be a pot and the kettle sort of thing. Arenas as a #1 is fools gold of the truest form.
by CaliFlorida on Sep 11, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't appreciate the sarcasm.
I don’t care that we disagree, but it isn’t needed in this discussion.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Oh, come on; All in good fun.
How was I supposed to respond to that? Don’t take it personally.
I'm not, just saying.
No worries.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Penny was every bit one of the best
He had an all around game that matches anyone’s. He could shoot, he could drive, he could pass, he could rebound. The other team could never find someone adequate to guard him, and their backcourt couldn’t shoot over him. I don’t buy him being a role player.
Neither do I.
He was a superstar.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I'm not saying he was a role player.
Just that he was billed as a #1 option and a guy who could lead a team. But he never was that player. He was “fools gold” in that respect. If Penny, in his prime, is your best player, you’re a 45 win team and first round sacrificial lamb.
To be fair, Penny never had a great supporting cast.
Armstrong, Grant, and Seikaly were good, but Nick Anderson’s production really tapered off temporarily and Dennis Scott was rendered useless once Shaquille O’Neal left (like Damon Jones).
The Magic, during the Penny and Shaq era, never really had a bench, and that problem was magnified once O’Neal went to Los Angeles. I think Hardaway was a product of his environment, in very much the same way Tracy McGrady was when he had barely any good role players to team up with. Both excellent players, but didn’t have the proper support and were criticized a bit unfairly for it.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Penny wasn't ever playing 1 on 5 the way T-Mac was for a few years
but I definately agree that the caliber of the 96-97 team is something to point to in explaining any arguments against Penny’s historical value pre-injury. Really the entire atmosphere after Shaq left was basically one of resignation and acknowledgement that things were over. Implicit in that was a recognition that Penny couldn’t carry that Magic team, and perhaps even any team, to a superstar level.
The difficulty in that latter statement is that there is such a short record for Penny pre-injury. But I can tell you for a fact — and you guys probably can too — that in 96-97 no Magic fan felt comfortable or confident because we had Penny Hardaway. Pre Injury. That’s not true for real superstars like Kobe, Lebron, Jordan, Stockton/Malone, and all the dominant big men. Players on that level gave their teams the real chance to go deep in the playoffs every year. Penny never had that ability.
This might be a good test --
Name all the legit, unquestioned “Superstars” you can think of and see how many of those guys you would take Penny over.
hope this doesn’t completely backfire on me.
I'll play.
Kobe (after Shaq) had that issue before Pau Gasol was gift-wrapped in a basket by the Grizzlies. I can never forget Bryant’s Game 7 meltdown against the Suns in the playoffs where he essentially refused to play. Until Kobe had a proper supporting cast, he wasn’t accomplishing many team accolades with the Lakers.
Charles Barkley is another superstar that was re-signed to his fate, specifically in his later years with the Philadelphia 76ers. Couldn’t get past the Semifinals a few times, and finally got traded to the Suns.
Adrian Dantley didn’t accomplish much with the Jazz during his prime. Like Barkley, he couldn’t get past the Semifinals a number of times and was traded.
Same with Dominique Wilkins. Didn’t get far in the playoffs during his prime, partly due to the Celtics.
I can go on. These are all Hall of Fame players that struggled to get their teams deep into the playoffs because of a lack of a supporting cast (though some, like Dominique for example, actually had good role players on the squads), yet no one questions their greatness. It’d be the same for Penny if it wasn’t for his injuries.
I do think Hardaway could have carried the Magic, in his prime, had he had a supporting cast. I feel the same way about McGrady, actually, even though both players didn’t exude perfect leadership qualities. Sometimes individuals can overcome that with their remarkable abilities.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Penny, in his prime, would be our 2nd best player now
Take Howard away, and he’d be the best player. And yes, we would have more than 45 wins.
I'd take Vince Carter and probably Rashard too
I don’t want to think about taking Howard away from the Magic. I know we wouldn’t be playing for any championships.
But his prime was like 2 seasons
Hard to get excited about that.
Because he was hurt.
Penny’s prime was more like three years, after that his production fell off a cliff.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Grant Hill's ankle
The crack heard round the world.
He was still a class guy, but doesnt it suck that he played durable in PHX. For magic fans not for Hill that is.
Thats me chilling with Nick Anderson
by The Magic made Lebron run off the court on Sep 9, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions
Not for me, cause he hasn't been that good for the Suns
I was glad when he left the Magic.
Hill's been good for Phoenix.
He’s been durable, reliable, pretty much the antithesis of what he was in Orlando .
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Yeah, Grant was a class act.
I don’t fault him for the injuries, just a myriad of bad luck.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I wish our franchise could shake the injury bug
The list was very interesting from a Magic fans’ perspective. Our team picked up steam with the drafts of Shaq and Penny. Then Shaq left, and Penny had to carry the team, leading to his injuries and eventual departure. But that allowed Orlando to sign Hill and T-Mac. But Hill could never stay healthy, and T-Mac had to carry the team, leading to his injuries and eventual departure. But that allowed Orlando to come full circle and draft D12 and Jameer. We’ll be good, as long as we keep Dwight happy and Jameer healthy (whoops).
I’m not sure if Jameer’s injury would qualify for the list, as it was his return from it that was most devastating for the Magic. The PG controversy really hurt Orlando in the Finals. I am not sure it would have changed the outcome, but I do believe we wouldn’t have given away one (if not both) of the games that the Lakers stole from us. The only good thing about his injury is that unlike the ones listed above, his shouldn’t be a chronic recurring injury. Will he return to his magnificent pre-injury form is another question.
I don't think Jameer's injury qualifies yet,
but I’m certainly putting him on my list if he gets hurt again this year. He’s going on a different list if gives up another three ball like to derrick fisher again.
The fact that one of those PGs was clearly not ready to come back is what hurt Orlando.
The BEST of the PGs, in fact. (When uninjured.)
And we still kept it close.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
Eh, it's over and done with.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Jameer had a freak injury. No one should be really worried about him unless it's warranted.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
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