A Second Opinion on Nick Anderson
Earlier today, Eddy gave you his take on the possibility of the Orlando Magic retiring Nick Anderson's uniform number. He laid out the facts with a little help from Jon Nichols and Neil Paine. Now, using a slightly different approach, I'll take on the same subject.
Before we continue, a confession. Nick Anderson is absolutely one of my favorite Magic players, ever. A poster depicting him dunking adorned my wall as an eight-year-old, alongside one of Penny Hardaway, but I always liked Nick just a bit more. Although I'd like to keep sentiment outside this evaluation, it might find ways to creep in. And ultimately, would that be so bad? Jersey retirements are, by nature, sentimental events.
I'll have help in this process, as Eddy had in his. I've shamelessly lifted the "jersey retirement formula" Ben Golliver of Blazersedge devised over a year ago, which Eddy too has mentioned. But as Ben explains in the post, the "formula" uses only addition, and is wholly uncomplicated. Golliver awarded anywhere from 1 to 5 points in 5 distinct categories, for a possible maximum score of 25. After the jump, we'll see how Nick fares.
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Criterion One: Connection with the Franchise
Ben explains:
To determine how closely a player is connected with a franchise, one generally assesses 4 conditions:
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Did the player play his most important years with the team?
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Did the player play the majority of his career with the team?
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Was the player drafted by the team?
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Did the player retire with the team?
So it's readily apparent that Anderson satisfies items 1, 2, and 3 on the list. Counting the playoffs, he played 736 of his 849 games with Orlando, which made him the first draft selection in franchise history. Because he did not retire with the team--which shipped him to Sacramento for Tariq Abdul-Wahad 10 years and 10 days ago--I cannot award him the maximum 5 points for this category. For meeting the other components here, however, he gets 4 points, and we move on.
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Criterion Two: Success with the Franchise
From Ben:
Judging a player's relative success across generations can be tricky, but its clear two factors are important to consider: the maximum success his team's enjoyed and his role in creating that success.
Ask yourself, "Can the story of the franchise's glory days be told without mentioning this player?"
To weigh both the team's success and the player's role in that sucess, I gave 5 points to a star on a championship team, 5 points to a starter on championship team, 5 points to a star on a finalist team, 4 points to a role player on a finalist team and 4 points to a starter on a finalist team.
Even Anderson's harshest detractors--the ones who never forgave him for missing four crucial free throws in Game 1 of the 1995 NBA Finals--would concede it's impossible to omit Anderson's name from discussing that era in Magic history. Hardaway and Shaquille O'Neal were the superstars, but Anderson was arguably the next-most-important player. And if you're going to mention Dennis freakin' Scott in this conversation, you can't very well overlook Anderson.
The real question becomes, for our purposes, "was Anderson a 'star' or a 'role player'?" In the year Orlando made its first trip to the Finals, Anderson averaged 15.8 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.1 assists, and 1.6 steals, while shooting 47.6% from the field and 41.5% from three-point range. All solid numbers, but not enough to justify the "star" label. Thus, for being a starter/role player on a finalist team, he gets 4 points in this category. Onto the next one.
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Criterion Three: Statistical Body of Work
Golliver:
Ask yourself, "How dominant (and for how long) was this player?"
In assigning the points in this category, I took into account: league-leading tallies, franchise/league records, double-doubles, 10+ year careers, and anything else that truly jumps out of the box score/ stat sheet.
One can use any number of words to describe Anderson's playing career, but "dominant" is not one of them. In 10 seasons with the Magic, he averaged 15.4 points, 5.3 rebounds, 2.8 assists, and 1.5 steals, while shooting 45.4% from the field and 36.3% from three-point range. Again, not dominant, but also respectable.
And, in terms of totals--not averages--he's Orlando's franchise leader in games played, minutes played, points scored, field goals made, field goals attempted, and steals. We also must point out the negative: by virtue of his long tenure, he has the dubious distinction of leading the franchise in the turnovers and personal fouls categories, although Dwight Howard will most assuredly pass him in both early in the coming season.
So, what's it boil down to? How do we reconcile his modest (by jersey-retirement standards) averages with his franchise-best totals? We split the difference between the two: 3.5 points in this category for Anderson.
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Criterion Four: Individual Awards
Golliver:
Ask, "What are the standout individual achievements on this player's resume and how do they compare to other franchise greats?"
We'll discuss this category briefly, and by necessity: it suffices to say that Anderson never won any individual honors during his career. About the best we can say for him on this score is that he was among the league-leaders in three-point field goals made during three separate seasons he spent with Orlando. But no All-Rookie appearances, no All-Star game appearances... nothing. No points for Nick here, sadly.
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Criterion Five: The Intangibles
Golliver:
This section takes into account the player's personality, contributions to the community and investment in the organization.
Ask yourself, "Is the player a credit to the organization, the city and the league?"
[....]
While this category is certainly subjective, it is only 20% of the overall picture so haggling over a point up or down should not make or break a candidate's application.
Here, Anderson makes out like a bandit. He's the first draft pick in franchise history, a fan-favorite in his decade with the team, and still in its employ as a Community Ambassador. The list of Magic players Anderson's equal, in terms of popularity in the Central Florida community, is short, and includes Bo Outlaw (also a Community Ambassador), Scott Skiles, Horace Grant, Darrell Armstrong, Howard, and maybe Hedo Turkoglu. O'Neal and Hardaway were popular in their prime, but the decidedly less-than-amiable ways in which they parted with the franchise--O'Neal with his infamous "small pond" comments, Hardaway with his trade demands--have forever diminished their standing in the community.
Finally, in 1996, Anderson became the first winner of the Rich and Helen DeVos Community Enrichment award.
In short, Anderson earns the full 5 points here easily.

Conclusions:
Nick Anderson sustained a high--but not elite--level of play for a decade with the Orlando Magic. He was a key component of their first NBA finalist team, in the franchise's first truly successful stint.
Whether those credentials are enough to merit jersey retirement is up for interpretation. Some people, justifiably, believe that sports franchise should only retire jersey numbers of Hall-of-Fame players. My counter is that jersey retirement honors players for their contributions to a specific franchise, rather than to the sport as a whole; that last bit is the Hall of Fame's responsibility. And, when viewed in this light, Nick Anderson's number 25 jersey absolutely deserves to hang from the rafters of Amway Center when it opens in 2010.
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Grand Opening/Closing
I think it certainly can be debated whether Nick Anderson should have his jersey retired. He certainly has meant a lot to the franchise.
It wouldn’t surprise me if his jersey gets retired in the final home game at the building formerly called the Orlando Arena. I am sure you guys will be discussing this, but there have to be some relatively big plans for the final year in that building.
Closing the arena by retiring the team’s first jersey might be one way (although, I would be somewhat afraid that Shaq would see it a jab at him and come after the Magic harder in the postseason). Might not be a bad way to open the Amway Center either, although I feel it would not mean as much seeing as we are out of the old building.
Philip,
The Curse of the Big Aristotle
http://bigaristotle.blogspot.com/
Never know.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
love that this is being applied!!!
you might quickly run the formula for other magic players that are up for consideration so you have some measuring sticks for comparison. for the blazers roughly 18 points (i think) meant jersey retirement but the standard was higher for older, more decorated franchises. so for a younger franchise it would make sense to have a slightly lower threshold.
basically, if no one else in franchise history tops 15, anderson’s 16.5 looks amazing. i might even give him the full four points for his stats given the franchise records he holds, which would push him to 17. that very well could be the highest number any magic player has achieved.
the blazers had a similar situation to anderson with geoff petrie (overall franchise number one pick, but not crazy stats or awards and a shorter career with the blazers)… and he was retired.
i like golliver's system of analysis quite a bit
and, despite your disclaimers, i think you applied it fairly. for statistical body of work, i may have gone 2.5-3 instead of 3.5. that’s the only place that i thought you may’ve been a bit generous. with a 3 in that cat, he’d have a total of 16 pts. golliver says 15-17 is the cutoff range, so we can see why there is heavy debate over nick.
by the way, doing a quick golliver analysis in my head for penny puts him in the 18-19 range. thoughts?
also just ran through DA and Shaq in my head. DA got a mere 12 (a little suprising) and Shaq got a 17 (a little disturbing, since I’d like to see him in the 12-13 range). The system is strong, but the Shaq number shows that it does have its flaws (perhaps allowing a score as low as -3 on intangibles would help correct the flaw?).
I think that speaks more to Shaq's greatness than anything else.
I don’t think that’s necessarily due to a flaw in the system.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
he was great (emphasis on past tense), but clearly should not have his number retired here
the guy is an enemy to the entire city of orlando
Yes, how DARE he sign with another team in a city he wanted to live in for more money?
You’re acting like the guy murdered someone. Give it a rest.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
no, that's fine. sign wherever you want, but...
1. don’t call your old city a dried up little pond
2. don’t subsequently direct very personal attacks at the team, its popular coach and its dominant new superstar and
3. most certainly don’t expect to have your number retired by the team you left in the dust after 4 short years
come on, man, you’re better than this. step up your game, and stop comparing dwight to shaq. you’re being ridiculous, foolish and nonsensical. plus, more than a little ludicrous.
Okay, so who doesn't Shaq talk about?
The guy talks trash — it’s part of his thing. Nobody takes it personally — except apparently some fans, I guess?
On the court, Orlando Shaq was just about identical to Orlando Dwight (so far). Dwight will probably do what he does longer than Shaq did it here; he may some day do it better. But if you don’t see that there’s currently very little difference between the two in terms of actual basketball, you’re just denying reality.
I mean, you can’t expect Shaq to love the city. He signed a contract — he was forced to sign a contract. I think everyone knew from the beginning he was probably going to LA — maybe some of us hoped he’d change his mind. But when the guy went to LA, I think anyone acting shocked and betrayed was pretty disingenuous. The dude served out his contract; he has every right to go where he wants after that.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
yes, he does talk trash about everyone
and a lot of people despise him for it. umm, have you heard about him and kobe? do you know that he and dwade are on very unfriendly terms? are you aware that bosh was offended by shaq’s comments? did stan and dwight’s comments after the attacks really make you think that they felt it was funny? come on, man, what alternate world are you living in? the media has propogated this myth that shaq is this fun-loving guy. the reality is that his ego is bigger than napoleon’s, and he leaves a wake of bitterness and destruction in his path.
plus, how do you downplay the difference between 4 years and 8 years here? 4 years is 1/3 of a great career. 8 years is 2/3 of a great career, and 8 years and 1 finals appearance is dwight’s BARE MINIMUM here.
yes, over their first years in the league they are similarly-good players. both grew into top 4-6 players in their first few years. so what? you keep saying this, but who cares? yes, they are similarly skilled, but one was here 4 years, and one will be here at least 8 years. one (dwight) is one of the most likeable superstars in any sport in a long time. seemingly a great guy in every way possible. the other (shaq) is a big, talented prick who leaves waves of disaster and bitterness in his wake.
I said "so far".
Then I said “so far” again. Dwight hasn’t been here eight years YET. Barring injury — and Dwight has proven as durable as one can hope so far — he probably will be.
As for trash talk, I don’t think you understand the concept. Yes, the purpose of trash talk is to upset people — but that’s a momentary thing. And I consider being on bad terms with Kobe an inevitable consequence of spending time with Kobe.
I still don’t get what you’re so hung up about. Yeah, Shaq’s most likely kind of a jerk. He’s also great at basketball. We don’t know these guys personally, so unless it’s something really egregious — a crime, for example — it’s silly to get hung up on personal judgments of them. And that’s what I don’t get here — you’re not like “I don’t like Shaq, but he’s a great player”, you’re trying to deny what happened. You’re trying to act like he wasn’t a Hall of Fame-worthy player in Orlando because you don’t like him. All I’m saying is, you can dislike the guy and acknowledge that his number should be retired for the great basketball he played. I don’t see why those are mutually exclusive at all.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
yes, shaq played good basketball here
but (i) it was only 4 years and they weren’t his best years, (ii) he left of his own volition, (iii) he didn’t win a championship and (iv) he has been a total dick to the franchise and the city. for me, the 4 years of good basketball he played here don’t even come close to outweighing all the negatives. not even close. and i bet in a poll of knowledgeable fans who aren’t being swayed by a one-sided argument in favor of shaq, at least 80% of them would agree with me.
i completely agree with the article bianchi wrote in the sentinel during the finals — the guy is uttlerly despised here and should just stay away. should the lakers retire his number? yes. should the magic? hellz to the mutherphuckin no.
thankfully you’ve dropped your ludicrous comparisons of dwight to shaq. that comparison is like saying an apple is the same as a fire engine because they’re both red and shiny.
"Dropped"? Hell, no.
Strictly in terms of on-court performance, what exactly is the difference between Shaq’s first four seasons in the league and Dwight’s first five seasons in the league?
Dwight’s a better defender/rebounder, Shaq’s a better scorer. Even.
Both were not quite the best player in the NBA, but clearly in the top 5. Even.
Both led teams to the Finals once, didn’t win, though in both cases, the teams they were leading were pretty stacked with talent. Even, even, EVEN.
And the “negatives” are that he’s a trash talker? Oh, shock and horror! How dare the man be a trash talker? That’s clearly an unforgivable sin! Well, unless you’re Michael Jordan… or Gary Payton… or Barkley, Reggie Miller, Garnett… every one of those dudes’ accomplishments are clearly negated by their despicable habit of saying some things off-court. That’s basketball for you.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
I don't know about enemy.
Shaq is not well-liked, but his short-lived legacy with the Magic can’t be denied.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
come on, we don't really have a critical mass of people defending shaq on this board...
do we? really? man, that’s shocking. yes, he was a great player here for 4 years. he is also a total douchebag. if he was a great player here for 8-10 years and was a total douchebag, we’d probably still have to consider retiring his digits. from him we got 4 years of very good and 12 years of evil. as you can tell, i truly, deeply despise shaq. before his attacks on dwight and stan van i really really despised him, but those attacks took it to another level.
i’d defend shaq and say retire his jersey, and penny’s and nick anderson’s. i love shaq. i grew up watching the magic and i really like shaq’s terrible films as a kid. i think he has a great personality and even if his ego makes him seem like an ass at times, pinthatd has said more douchebagy stuff in the last two posts than shaq has in his career and i don’t think that makes him a bad dude.
by thomaswhigham on Aug 13, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
who else's personalities do you celebrate?
dick cheney? mussolini? mr. burns? oj simpson? lindsey lohan’s dad? the steffi graf fan who attacked monica seles? barry bonds? chris brown?
come on, son, regurgitate the kool aid and think independently.
Oh, I get it. You're a crazy person.
You know, we all could have saved a lot of time if you had just mentioned that up front.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
ur right, comparing shaq to mr. burns was an intolerable slight to mr. burns
and i retract it. but the barry bonds and dick cheney analogies stand.
I'm just saying.
If it wasn’t for Penny and Shaq, Orlando wouldn’t have been seen on a national scale. I think that they deserve credit for providing legitimacy to a young franchise. As for O’Neal, he may have only played four years with the Magic, but they were filled with countless memories. The fact that Shaq will go down as one of the greatest players to ever played the game of basketball should be taken into account, because that speaks to his legacy as a player. As a person, certainly, that’s a different story but let’s be frank here, Shaq likes to talk. I rarely talk his comments seriously because he does it for the attention and to get people talking about him. It’s always been about him and it’ll forever be about him.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
LOL Things
Some guys just get people going. Shaq is always one of those guys.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Here's the thing about Shaq
I don’t see how the same people who are saying, “oh, Dwight Howard will definitely have his number retired” are saying “there’s no way Shaq should have his number retired.” They’ve basically had the same career in Orlando so far — 4-5 years, one of the league’s 5-10 best players, led the team to one Finals. Of course, Howard is staying with the team, and has the chance to do more — but at this point, his resume looks just about identical to Shaq’s at the time he left Orlando.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
i could write 10 paragraphs about the differences between these 2, but to keep it simple but i'll boil it down to this
1. even if dwight does not sign a second extension with us, he will have been here EIGHTS years when he leaves, and will have spent most of his prime here. shaq was here 4 years, and left when he was just entering his prime. umm, pretty big difference, don’t you think?
2. dwight’s ego is roughly 1/5000 the size of shaq’s and will not cause him to ever say and do all of the childish, alienating, insecure things that shaq has said and done.
make sense?
2 is your bias showing. That’s just the way Shaq is — he’s a talker. I don’t think it bothers anyone who’s actually involved in basketball; why do you let it bother you? It certainly doesn’t help his case, but it’s no reason to erase the guy from the history books.
1 is you not understanding what I’m saying. I acknowledged that Howard WILL do more — I’m saying that, if some fluke accident happened and Dwight had to retire tomorrow, look at his career. What have you got? You’ve got Shaq, plain and simple.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
Did shaq win DPOY with the Magic?
"Sold your body!! Oh Bender, I been down that road. I know it's glamorous, and the parties are great. But you'll end up spending every dollar you make on jewelery and skin-tight pants." -- Hubert J. Farnsworth
by Will Said Skills Pay the Billz? on Aug 13, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Did Dwight win a scoring title?
Just drop it, you’re bringing nothing constructive to the conversation.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
2 is your bias showing. shaq’s talk has bothered every superstar he’s ever played with — penny, kobe and dwade (esp the latter 2). and many that he hasn’t played with. i think you’re the only one it DOESN’T bother.
1 so, as a magic fan, you’re now reduced to hanging you’re argument (whatever it is) on a career-ending injury to dwight?? yeah, that’s what we like to talk about here. listen to yourself, man, and then stop talking. at least here. perhaps you’d be more comfortable, with your anti-dwight/pro-shaq sentiments, on a cavs or lakers board….
So he’s difficult to work with behind the scenes. Who even cares?
And yeah, that’s what’s known as “a rhetorical device”. I pointed out that Shaq has accomplished exactly as much with Orlando as Dwight has, and you’re like, “but Dwight is going to accomplish more.” And I said, “yes, but I’m talking about what actually has been done.” What I’m saying is, Dwight’s first five years alone would merit his jersey being retired, right? (I don’t think you’d argue that.)
Then I don’t see it as rational to discount Shaq’s four years — which were statistically equal, equal in terms of the standing the two players reached, and equal in terms of the team’s success during that time — because of a lot of off-court malarkey. And I don’t know — maybe you’re a big off-court malarkey fan. Myself, I’m a basketball fan, and both Dwight and Shaq played the game of basketball on its highest level for several years in this town. That’s what matters — not some petty off-court feuds.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
I’VE ALREADY ADMITTED SHAQ WAS AS GOOD ON THE COURT AS DWIGHT DURING THEIR FIRST FEW YEARS. MAYBE IF I SAY IT IN ALL CAPS IT WILL SINK INTO YOUR HEAD AND YOU’LL STOP MAKING THE POINT.
re dwight vs. shaq: if dwight quit on orlando tomorrow, never played another game for the team, trashed the city, trashed the team’s front office, trashed its next superstar and basically did everything possible to make us despise him over the next 10 years, then yeah, i’d have some issues retiring his number in 10 or 12 years.
but why are you so insistent on talking about a scenario that has a .0001% chance of happening? why not talk about the 99.9999% scenario, which is that dwight plays at least 8 years here, comports himself as a gentleman (as he always has), remains respectful to the team and the city, and has an orlando legacy which, by a factor of 100, surpasses shaq’s. and if he signs another extension and wins a championship or 3 here, well that’s all just thanksgiving turkey gravy.
disagree with you Ben
Nick Anderson, or any player in Magic history, deserves to get his number retired. I love Nick for what he’s done on and off the court. But I have to agree with Scott Skiles when he said that these sort of things are for champions. Nick Anderson was never a champion, therefore there is no reason for his number to be retired.
One Freaken Second
That's silly.
Why would you base an individual honor on a team achievement?
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
cause 15 points a game ain't gettin your number retired alone
One Freaken Second
by magic fanatic on Aug 13, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I rather not use per game statistics to judge the worth of a player.
I like to think that we, as the general public, has access to superior metrics.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Well, you already know we could go all day on that
In my mind, you gotta be a very special player to have your jersey retired. If you don’t bring in a trophy you have to A. be an MVP; B. Dominate the league on offense and defense for multiple years; C. take a bullet for a baby.
I love Nick, but stepping back from my fanhood I see Nick as a solid role player on a good team. Him leading the franchise in all these statistics says more about the team’s history than his talent. Sorry everybody, but it is what it is.
One Freaken Second
by magic fanatic on Aug 13, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand where you're coming from.
Agree to disagree, which is fine.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
LOL .. yeah, I have a post ready for him.
Needless to say, that’d be a painful exercise.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Again as far as impact on the franchise goes, it all depends on the franchise
So you don’t necessarily need to be an all-star. I mean the Kings retired Divac’s jersey for goodness sakes (and I get that he was an all-star but I dont know if he was an all-star in the same sense Webber and Bibby were)
"My features are that of a god, its not a facade these rappers wanna be NaS"- Nasir Jones QB's Finest
Kristin Kreuk is teh love.
Still miss em: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvvgVn0gg1E
Look
Ya’ll need to acknowledge something about Vlade Divac.
He wasn’t a player of Webber caliber,naybe not even of Bibby;s. But,Vlade’s personality is
UNBELIEVABLE. Vlade did so much humanity work that I can’t describe it. Ie,He built 250 (two-hundred-fifty) houses for persons who lost their homes in war in Yugoslavia.
I don’t now who should I compare him to. Peja Stojakovic would never make it without Vlade,he says it all the time.
There is only one Vlade Divac,and I am so proud he’s my countryman. All players that had privilege to plat with him are fond of it.
Divac was a great humanitarian.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I dont doubt Vlade's a great humanitarian and a pioneer as far as Euro-ballers go
In fact I wasn’t even saying he wasnt a good player but I used him to prove my point that a player’s worth to a franchise depends on the franchise more than anything.
"My features are that of a god, its not a facade these rappers wanna be NaS"- Nasir Jones QB's Finest
Kristin Kreuk is teh love.
Still miss em: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvvgVn0gg1E
by Wasabi Steak on Aug 13, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Valid point.
That’s why I voted yes on DA and NA. They would never be that worthy from a pure basketball standpoint (as Divac is not,frankly).
But,for Magic franchise & fans,they are special, Therefore,retire them.
We aren’t retiring jerseys foe the sake of LAL fans discussions or anything,we do that to preserve memories and honor people special to US.
Okay let's set the record straight
Since I’m the resident Kings fan here. Divac was not the first European player in the NBA. He was not the first drafted. He was not the first all-star. He was not the first selected in the 1st round.
What he did was prove that European players can be stars and effective players in the NBA for a long time. In a lot of ways, his spirit as a former Laker was very responsible for creating the super-arrogance that existed with the Bibbilicious-C-Webb’s of the world.
That all being said, and that’s a lot in of itself, without Vlade the Kings weren’t a championship team. They haven’t even been mentioned in that breath since, and it’s no accident. Vlade made every wheel turn (especially with Peja & C-Webb occupying a frontcourt together) far more smoothly than they did without them. Peja & C-Webb’s game never meshed, and Miller never proved to be much more than an adequate substitute. Numbers wise, MIller has held up as effective, but in reality, Vlade’s worth was rarely rooted in his numbers. He had games where he would score 20 points by the mid 3rd quarter and not play for the 4th quarter. That happened quite a bit. His stats were suppressed by the fact that the Kings in those years blew the team out.
Beyond any of all that, Vlade was the only player to miss less than 10 games in the 6 years he was there. That says it all.
Say whatever you want about him being a Serb, a Laker/Hornet/King, and say whatever else you want about his notoriety, but the Kings were NEVER a championship team without Vlade Divac. Period.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh
And if the Kings had retired Webber’s jersey without retiring Divac’s jersey, I would have burned down Arco. The only problem? I live a 1000 miles away. By the time I would be able to attempt it, it would have been done by an angry mob of Kings fans.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
NIce,I'm glad fans liked him so much
But,I also have to ask you this:is there something wrong about being a Serb?
Why have you mentioned that? And do you really think you know anything about Serbs?
You don’t have a clue,trust me. If you like,ask me anything you’d like to know. I’d be glad to answer. Sorry,but I had to say this.
Being overly sensitive about race irritates me. The world would be a better place without it.
Sorry, also had to be said. Maybe I should get upset over those Def Comedy things where they say “White people do(insert action here) like this.” and proceed to make fun of everything white people do. My point is, if you look for something to be insulted about long enough, chances are you’ll find it. Life is too short for petty arguments.
"Fun fact: Larry Hughes, who couldn’t stay healthy if all his human parts were replaced with bionic implants, is out for the next four weeks with a bruised leg. Do you think that Willis Reed ever reads about all these players missing time with bruises and sprained fingers and throws up in his mouth a little?"
by Diosnomeama on Aug 14, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more.
I apologize. It’s not race,it’s nationality. It’s just this: I hate American opinion on the matters here,because it’s based on CNN reports,which I’ve watched,and laughed a lot.
You guys are served what they want you to believe,and I’m sure that goes for Iraq,and other stuff,too. I APOLOGIZE again,I am dropping this promptly.
I was only surprised that he brought up the fact Vlade is Serb,and it sounded like negative conotation to me.
You're generalizing but I agree, plenty of Americans are stupid.
But any nationality has their share of stupid people. That being said, I’ll also be dropping this as well, even though it is an interesting discussion.
"Fun fact: Larry Hughes, who couldn’t stay healthy if all his human parts were replaced with bionic implants, is out for the next four weeks with a bruised leg. Do you think that Willis Reed ever reads about all these players missing time with bruises and sprained fingers and throws up in his mouth a little?"
by Diosnomeama on Aug 14, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually Dzogi I don't care what race or nationality Vlade is
The fact he is a Serb, and there are people out there who don’t like him because of that. (The fact he is Serbian means 0% to me.) There was a long time argument between him and Toni Kukoc (who is Croatian for those unaware) that stemmed somewhat from the death of Drazen Petrovich (also Croatian although Petrovich tended to break down those barriers).
The only reason I brought it up was to reference that he was European (Serbian obviously). No other. If you feel offended, than I am sorry. But I’ve rooted as hard for Vlade and Peja (both Serbs although Peja’s citizenship is Greek stemming from his PAOK team getting him out of Serbia at 16 and what not) as I’ve rooted for any other Kings player. So, yeah that is that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Also Dzogi
I’m not sure where I mentioned anything about Vlade being a Serb as more than a matter of fact. (In fact, I’m not sure many Americans really know Vlade is Serbian.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Sure,man
I obviously loved him. I have to admit that I’m surprised with your knowledge on the matter. Cons. Sorry,my bad. That’s why I was surprised,didn’t expect for you to know he’s Serbian,and all. Those are sensitive matters because we were in war with Croatia not so long ago,I remember it,although I wasn’t fighting.
And you know the funniest part? NYC has bigger population than all of us together,and yet we do such foolish things.
Bottomline is:
Vlade should have his jersey retired. Same goes for DA or NA.
OUR FRANCHISE HAS SOME PRETTY GOOD RESULTS,DESPITE IT’S YOUNG AGE. IF THOSE PLAYERS ARE MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR IT,HONOR THEM PROPERLY. DON’T LOOK AT LAL OR BOS OR NYC.
SIMPLE AS THAT.
Thank you.
To be fair Dzogi
Most Kings fans know. There was rarely a game where Vlade & Peja played where a mention of what a Serbian Layup is (a 3 ball). So, maybe people in Orlando, or other parts of the country don’t really know, but it was mentioned quite often, many times daily at times, to the point where I’d be surprised a Kings fan DIDN’T know that.
The Balkans have problems. It’s unfortunate that war ensued. ’Nuff said.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Knowledge.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Also not to be contrarian
But MIke Bibby is probably the most overrated NBA player this decade.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I can probably think of a more overrated player.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I agree with you on this point. Heartily.
Nick’s long-term contributions to Orlando, on the court and off, more than merit his jersey being retired.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
I think the fact that every franchise should be deemed independent in the discussion is true, too.
People have tried to compare the Magic to the Celtics or Lakers when it comes to retiring jerseys, and I think that’s insane. Those are, arguably, the two most storied franchises in the NBA.
Their history is different and independent from Orlando’s history.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Even the Celtics have at least one odd jersey-retirement choice
The Cs retired Don Nelson’s number. He played for them from 1966 to 1976, winning 5 championships. He averaged 11.2 points and 5.6 rebounds per game.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
Not to add my opinion late in the fray to this discussion but.....
There are a lot of franchises that would have never EVEN considered retiring Vlade Divac’s jersey the way the Kings did.
Yet, you won’t find a Kings fan who will argue with it. It was the Maloof’s choice to do that. Not the fans, and not anybody else.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I didn't see anything wrong with Sacramento retiring Divac's jersey.
He was a part of the movement that brought back the Kings from the brink.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Yes I know ER
But that wasn’t really my point. My point is that the Devoss’ opinion of Anderson, and whether he belongs up there, is what ultimately matters here. They are, after all, the owners.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
But, that being said (and I don't want that statement to sound condescending either)
is that the Maloof’s partly did it to sell more tickets because of the way last season was going. They did it last year because they wanted to get more fans in the seats and try to get them to see the new product. Although, the retirements were scheduled well before the team remade itself anyway.
Anyway, I don’t know if the Magic should retire Anderson’s jersey. I do know is that he made a qualitative impact that has lasted well beyond his playing days in O-Town.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
.. and I think that means something, in my opinion.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

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