Orlando Magic & Retired Jerseys: Darrell Armstrong, Part I
If Orlando Magic fans had to choose one player that epitomized and exemplified the 'Heart and Hustle' era for the franchise, the individual chosen would probably be Darrell Armstrong. Known for his energy, grit, and intensity, Armstrong endeared himself to his peers in the NBA & the local fans for always giving his all and exciting crowds with his dunking ability, despite his small stature (6'0''). As such, Darrell is probably most famous for a few things, like accidentally making a layup in the 1996 NBA Dunk Contest and stealing a game (figuratively & literally) away from the Philadelphia 76ers in the closing seconds (3.3, to be exact) of a game in 1999.
Armstrong was a perfect underdog to root for - he attended and played college ball at a small school (Fayetteville State University), didn't get drafted by an NBA team, was forced to play in the GBA (Global Basketball Association), in the USBL (United States Basketball League), and in Europe before being signed by Orlando as a free agent during the 1994-1995 season. Even then, Armstrong didn't see significant playing time with the Magic until the 1997-1998 season.
Talk about paying your dues, right?
I turned to Benjamin Golliver's "formula" made in a write-up over a year ago at the superb Blazersedge to ascertain whether Armstrong deserved an analytical and a statistical breakdown. After I noted that Armstrong met a majority of the criterion listed in Ben's post (for example, Armstrong played the majority of his career and his most important years with the team), I surmised that he deserved an examination.
Before I begin, I want to make it explicitly clear that I'm not advocating against or for an Orlando player in this mini-series. The main purpose of these posts is to figure out who in Magic history has a legit argument for such an honor, and let the community decide accordingly (there will be a poll so that people can chime in).
So, without further ado, let's begin.
As I stated in my preview yesterday, I enlisted the help of Jon Nichols of Basketball-Statistics and Neil Paine of Basketball-Reference to a.) add an APBRmetrician's unbiased perspective and b.) provide statistical data.
Beginning (by Jon Nichols):
During his nine seasons with the Magic, they never finished with a losing record. Statistically, he was solid but not superb. He was never particularly efficient (excluding his very short 1994-95 appearance, his single season career high in Offensive Rating was 112). However, he produced enough (usage rates hovering around 20) to post solid PER’s. Hs best seasons came from 1998-2001, when he posted PER’s of 22.2, 19.5, and 18.6. However, none of these statistics really reflect his strong defensive ability.
Statistically, there are other players who have had their jerseys retired who have posted numbers similar to Armstrong’s. Austin Carr played nine seasons with the Cavaliers and posted numbers at a level below Armstrong. However, he was known as "Mr. Cavalier," works in the Cleveland front office, is the team’s color commentator, and was a college superstar. Clearly his jersey was retired for reasons beyond his on-court production.
Brad Davis had similar numbers in 12 years with the Dallas Mavericks and had his jersey retired. However, he too works for his team’s front office and is a television personality. Ditto for John McGlocklin of the Milwaukee Bucks. Finally, we have Dennis Johnson, who posted regular season numbers inferior to those of Armstrong. However, he won multiple championships with the Celtics and even won a Finals MVP Award once.
So to sum up Armstrong’s situation: his numbers are on par with the lower level of players who have had their jerseys retired. However, he has two factors working against him: he did not finish his career with the Magic nor does he still hold a position in the team’s front office. It doesn’t help that his Magic career ended around the time he was charged with resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer. Also, you could probably find other players with numbers like his that never had their jerseys retired. It all comes down to how much he means to the Magic franchise: was he just a pretty good player or did he mean something more? I’d probably vote against retiring his jersey.
Middle:
Credit goes to Nichols for the PER graph and Paine for the statistical plus/minus data.
As a rule of thumb, it's best to compare PER's of players who play the same position and/or compare PER's of the same individual over a span of a few seasons because issues do arise in other situations where comparisons are being made. In this case, the only glaring problem comparing these crop of guards is that blocks and steals weren't an official NBA statistic until the 1973-1974 season, which skews Jon McGlocklin's career PER. Nevertheless, Armstrong's career PER and career statistical plus/minus compare favorably to other guards that have had their jerseys retired. In fact, Armstrong fares best among the quintet in two separate linear metrics. It'd be great to use more advanced statistics to see how Armstrong lines up among his peers, but limitations in retrieving that data is a problem.
With that being said, some of the numbers DO speak for themselves.
End:
Armstrong didn't end his career with Orlando on a high note as was pointed out, but it's clear that he means something more to the city and to the franchise.
Off the court, Armstrong continues to make an impact in the Central Florida community (for example, the Darrell Armstrong and Chucky Atkins, 2009 11th Annual Basketball Camps & the 10th Annual Darrell Armstrong Classic Weekend) and remains a favorite with Magic fans. On the court, Armstrong bridged the gap between the Shaquille O'Neal era and the Dwight Howard era, played alongside a pair of #1's (Anfernee Hardaway and Tracy McGrady), and steered Orlando through many, many, many years of ups and downs.
Armstrong played the majority of his career and the most important years (in other words, his prime) with the Magic. Armstrong's teams weren't remember for being extremely successful, though, that's what happens when an individual is a product of his environment. Which is to say, it's not Armstrong's fault that Hardaway got traded, Hill was injured, and so on and so forth. When looking at Armstrong in a vacuum, his statistical body of work hovered between good & great during his tenure with Orlando and he was rewarded justly, when he became (and still remains) the only player in the history of the Association to win the Most Improved Player Award and Sixth Man Award in the same year (1999). Impressive.
Random thought. Remember when Tim Hardaway of the Denver Nuggets was ejected in the third quarter of a regular season home game in 2002 against the Orlando Magic and promptly threw a courtside monitor onto the court during his temper tantrum?
Who picked up the television and plugged it back in where it belonged?
Darrell Armstrong.
Awards:
1999 Most Improved Player Award
1999 Sixth Man Award
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This is a big debate.. To retire a number like Darrell Armstrong’s or Nick Anderson’s. They represent everything a retired jersey should and more, but neither quite had the right Magic teams to win it on the big stages like retired jerseys normally should. Darrell definitely has that “My career has spanned in every Magic era pretty much” and was the epitome of the “heart and hustle” era. I think my short list of possible candidates is Armstrong and two others, one of which is way, way too early to talk about.
It's tough, yeah.
But that’s exactly why I brought up other players who’ve had their jersey retired, to figure out what type of precedent and standard has been set around the league. Like I said in my post, the lack of team success while Darrell was with the Magic wasn’t his fault. Nevertheless, his numbers proved to be superior than those would did get their jersey retired. I think an argument can be made against or for Armstrong.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Every time they ‘honor’ Nick Anderson at the O-Rena, which is often because he’s always there, I groan. (Maybe because I can’t get over his FT"s against Houston in the finals). However I guess I already thought they had ‘honored’ him at a game I was at before, which I thought was the equiv. of retiring his jersey. I honestly do not believe the Magic should retire either one’s jersey, for one simple reason- NBA teams do not retire ‘slightly above average’ players jerseys. You wont see Charlotte-N.O. retire Kendall Gill’s jersey, or Houston retire Mario Elie’s number. These guys were not even All-Stars (ever) and to me it would cheapen the honor of retiring jerseys if the Magic retire two solid role players numbers and honor them as ‘greats’. Save the jersey retirements for when Nelson and Howard retire, they probably will be the first two to deserve such an honor.
I hear you.
However,they are two main candidates for now,so when we discuss possibility of retiring jerseys,they must be mentioned. IMO,Nick is probably #1,followed by Armstrong. I don’t think retiring jerseys should be about ‘ships and statistics. If a player represents “heart&hustle” in everybody’s eyes,that’s it for me. On the other side,NA is franchise’s most productive player,so far. Rings help,of course,but shouldn’t be the only parameter.
Either way,their jerseys probably wont be up there anytime soon…
Yet you ignore the fact Armstrong's numbers were superior than other players with retired jerseys.
.. and judging how many times a player was an All-Star is a murky issue because it’s such a subjective process, to begin with. Darrell probably deserved to be named an All-Star a few times in his career, but wasn’t due to the position he played. I don’t think a player should be necessarily penalized for that.
Again I ask, how would Armstrong cheapen the honor when his numbers were better than Davis, etc?
Brad Davis was never an All-Star, by the way.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Rings aren't the only criterion, but shouldn't the player have reached All-Star status at least once?
I have great affection for both Armstrong and Anderson and sympathize with the argument for retiring their numbers. Ultimately, however, I must disagree; I want to retire the number of a Magic Great, not a Magic “Very Good.”
by gift of the magi on Aug 11, 2009 11:44 AM EDT reply actions
Like I said above, Brad Davis was never an All-Star and had his jersey retired.
I don’t think being named an All-Star needs to be a prerequisite because as I’ve already said, it’s a somewhat subjective process that doesn’t always entirely promote the most deserving players.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Are you suggesting Tyrone Hill wasn't deserving of his All-Star selection?
Rik Smits?
Wally Szczerbiak?
Jamaal Magloire?
Dale Davis?
Yeah, there have been some really really bad All-Star selections.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Enough said.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
But maybe the Mavs shouldn't have retired Davis' number
I agree that achieving All-Star status is somewhat subjective and that jersey retirement shouldn’t necessarily depend on any one criterion.
That said, showing a list of bad All-Star selections (as The Dark does below) in some ways demonstrates how low of bar All-Star status may be. If Dale Davis made it once, shouldn’t the first player whose jersey we retire also have made it at least once? (You could alternatively argue the the list shows the randomness of All-Star selections, but I don’t think that argument is completely persuasive.)
Moreover, All-Star status should only be a probative— i.e., not necessary nor certainly sufficient— indicator for jersey retirement. That is, we probably want to retire the jersey of a player who made the All-Star team, other factors— team longevity, community activism— also matter.
In the end, I think we want to retire the jersey of a player who was extremely valuable to the team for a long period of time and who value was recognized by the league. Armstrong comes close, but I don’t think he gets quite there.
by gift of the magi on Aug 11, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No, you can't say that it shows how low the bar is set for being an All-Star.
Because there are a number of factors in play, like playing a position that’s coincidentally stacked. Deron Williams has never been an All-Star, but no one doubts him as being a great player. I think that needs to be taken into account when you wonder why someone hasn’t been an All-Star.
You make a ton of valid points, however, and I applaud you for making your argument succinctly.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Thanks, E.
You make very good points, too. I always enjoy healthy, well-informed Magic debates.
by gift of the magi on Aug 11, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say the height of the bar fluctuates more than it's low
Armstrong’s best years were 99-00, 00-01, and 01-02. The East All-Star guards?
99-00 – Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Reggie Miller, Allen Houston
00-01 – Iverson, Carter, Tracy McGrady, Houston, Stephon Marbury
01-02 – Michael Jordan, Iverson, McGrady, Jason Kidd, Baron Davis
That’s a darn high bar, since the weaker players on that list were heavily hyped (Starbury). I would propose that being an All-Star is beneficial to someone getting their number retired, but it is not necessary (since positions and years can be stacked), nor is it sufficient (since positions and years can also be really sparse). It is a factor, but should not be the factor.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Yeah, I mean, that list is insane.
Darrell Armstrong never had that national appeal any of those players had.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Nick Anderson holds so many team records tho.
And because he’s done so much for the community and for the organization, I think he’s really the only one who can be seriously considered. His longevity with the team, being one of their first draft picks, and his consistent production over 10 years makes him a possibility.
It's not a dunk unless your hand makes contact with the rim. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, "Superman..."
Let's try to keep things on topic.
Thanks for chiming in but the post is about Darrell Armstrong, so I don’t want to stray away from him.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Can we leave out Nick Anderson
and focus on Darrel?
I’m damn positive E has something for him coming up soon.
SO focus on DA not NA.
Yeah, that'd be nice. Thanks, man.
Let’s concentrate on Darrell Armstrong, not Nick Anderson. There will be time to talk about the latter, soon.
I think D.A. deserves to be discussed.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
If you consider ratiring player's jersey
You most def want to choose player that represents your team. When you think Darrell, you think Orlando. He is my No.1 Magic player overall. I know I said Nick is No1,but that’s pure statistics. Darell is simply the symbol of Orlando Magic. I would love it if all Magic players had his attitude,style & smile… When E makes that coming poll about whose jersey should hang up there,DA gets my vote. I believe most of ya agree.
I did actually vote 'No'
on the issue, but am of the opinion that if the Magic were to indeed give him such an honor that I would clap along with everyone else, and not think it a bad move.
I agree that he is better than most of the ‘lower rung’ players who had their jerseys retired, I simply feel as if there are others (past, present, future) who could be even better people to give such a (really long lasting, if you think about it) honor to.
That was my rationale- almost like a spoiled kid on christmas who got the K’NEX set instead of Lego Star Wars.
[[Note: I loved K’NEX so don’t go there, it just kinda works.]]
LOL @ note...
Who are those other players from the past? (Present and future don’t count,of course).
I disagree. No other player better represents Magic than DA.
There are others worth mentioning,sure,like Skiles,Scott,etc,but IMHO Shaq or Penny and the likes of them shouldn’t even be considered. Thank you for your contribution,lads,but you are not Magic.
Darell,however,is. Pure Magic.
I really don't want to get into the other players talk.
My point was just that I feel that there are others even more “Magic” than DA that I would like to see in the rafters 30 years from now, and still feel good about.
I wouldn't mind if Darrell Armstrong did or didn't get his jersey retired.
I think, at the very least, he’s worthy of being in the discussion.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I actually voted no also
I just can’t bring myself to say yes to Armstrong. Loved the guy while he was here, but he wasn’t active with the team post-retirement, and just doesn’t quite have anything to put him over the top. While not being an All-Star doesn’t eliminate him, if he had been an All-Star, it would have helped – likewise if he had set any sort of records or anything to make him more than just good.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
they haven't had a player in their history worthy enough of retiring a jersey
dwight will/should be the first.
www.last.fm/user/mhetrick04
I think the Magic DO have at least one player that is worthy of being honored.
But, I understand if people don’t agree.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
There have been some bad all-star selections, but dosent that help the point AGAINST Nick, if he was never even one of those bad all-star selections? When this team was finally good, Nick was the 4th best player on the team behind Shaq, Penny, and Ho Grant. Otherwise he was a guy who scored about 15-16 points a game where there weren’t any better options. Comparing him to Brad Davis just means that the Mavericks did something equally stupid in retiring a role player’s jersey simply for being there from the beginning. You can remember these guys fondly, or invite them back to be ‘honored’ but to me you dont take a number out of your rotation for the likes of Nick, DA, or Bo Outlaw (you know thats the next name on this crappy list)
Jesus
Chill out.
This list is by no means crappy, and last time I checked this is a FAN blog. I suppose you want E to apologize for creating healthy dialogue amongst fans? No. This is fun, treat it as such.
By the way, welcome, now learn how to reply to posts the right way.
I thought it was a debate, I just believe if your going to retire jerseys, do it for great players, or guys that were great for a highly successful team (like a Bob Horry) but not just ‘good’ players on some of your more forgettable teams. Unfortunately the guys that were great in Magic uniforms have wound up leaving on not so great terms (Penny, T Mac, and Shaq)
But in the case of a team such as ours
those guys who were “good on forgettable teams” got us to where we are today.
We wouldn’t be where we are without guys like Darrel or Nick.
Newsflash: they won'tdo that
We’re only discussing who of the Magic players is closest to that honor,of course there will be no jerseys up there till D12 retires,at least.
Crappy list?
What’s that supposed to mean?
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I think he finds it laughable you consider a Magic player for serious jersey retirement.
"Sold your body!! Oh Bender, I been down that road. I know it's glamorous, and the parties are great. But you'll end up spending every dollar you make on jewelery and skin-tight pants." -- Hubert J. Farnsworth
by Will Said Skills Pay the Billz? on Aug 11, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
If that's his opinion, it's not one that I share.
When Darrell Armstrong has proven to be statistically superior to other players that have had their jerseys retired, notwithstanding the reasons why those players got honored, it’s not stupid.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
back to DA
While I remember him fondly he has about the same or less of a reason than Nick Anderson. Great role player, hard worker, but not worthy of a retired jersey. I look around the Fleet Center or the Staples Center and see legend’s names retired, Hall Of Famers, All NBA players, major players on championship teams. I dont want to look around the new Orlando arena and see the “legendary” names of Anderson, Armstrong, Outlaw, Jeff Turner and Scott Skiles.
That won't happen.
Thing is, you can’t compare the Magic to the Celtics or Lakers. Those are two storied franchises with an immense amount of history. Of course, a great player (or two or three or more) will have played with them.
Whenever people compare Orlando to other franchise’s in that type of context, I think that’s wrong because every NBA organization is different, or is more prestigious, or is older, etc. None are the same.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
My comments & my sarcastic welcome
Thank you anyway! My ‘crappy’ remark was about the players on the list, and other potential candidates on it, not who made the list. Thanks though and I’m glad I finally found a very good Magic blog.
Well, the players compared with Armstrong aren't crappy because they got their jerseys retired.
Not sure if that’s what you’re referring to, but if it is, that’s my response to that comment.
In any case, welcome to 3QC.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Sorry, Darrell's a great guy...
And if the Magic were going to retire a jersey, his name would certainly be in the mix. I’d also throw in Scott Skiles and Nick Anderson. But I just don’t think anyone has distinguished themself in the manner expected for the team to retire their jersey, and I don’t feel like the team should be reaching for a candidate for this honor. Should Nick Anderson give us years of faithful and valuable servide in the front office, I would consider him a front runner. Beyond that, I think we wait to see if Dwight or Jameer stick around long enough for this. I think it’s hard to find as many candidates for a retired jersey nowadays, because players move so much.
e -- it's one thing to open up a dialogue, but you seem to have a clear agenda
which is to try to push the debate toward agreement that there are players’ numbers which should be retired. perhaps you are just playing devil’s advocate, since the preponderance of the opinions on the board is for no retirements (for DA, NA or otherwise)?
anyway, i’m with Jon Nichols and most of the people who have commented, who don’t think that DA’s (or anyone else’s) number should be retired. as i said yesterday, i think the only one i’d really consider would be penny (for reasons already stated). pointing to the worst handful of players that other teams have retired is not compelling to me. as has been pointed out, DA and NA are role players who didn’t win a championship and who each have negative memories associated with them (arrests and missed FTs) that, to a small degree, cloud the positive contributions. if you’re going to retire the number of a non-all-star role player, he has to be essentially perfect in the “soft” categories — community services, memorable performances, great personality, won a championship, etc, etc.
the need to honor someone (anyone!) is emblematic of modern society. it reminds me of gay focker’s awards case, which holds all of his 6th place trophies and 9th place ribbons. honors of this magnitude should be reserved for the greats. for those feeling impatient, dwight and jameer are well on their way…
I don't have a clear agenda.
I thought I made it explicitly clear in my post that I’m not arguing for or against a player. But I guess even written word isn’t clear enough. I don’t want my opinion to overshadow the content in the post.
If you really want to know whether or not I want Darrell Armstrong’s jersey retired, ask me.
Guess what my answer is? No.
Negative memories? No player is perfect. As long as the individual in question didn’t have a propensity for getting in trouble, I’m willing to excuse a screw-up here and there. That’s life.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
well, you said one thing (impartiality), but then your other posts indicated something else (advocacy for a position). i read some arguments from you regarding making the case for DA, but not much on the other side. you claimed impartiality, and then seemed to veer off that path. look, i obviously have zero problem with you stating your positions — it’s your baby and you’re one of the most knowledgeable dudes on here. state away.
anyway, my speculation — that you were playing devil’s advocate — seems to be right since you were making points in DA’s favor but now say that you’d vote against retiring the number.
interested to hear at some point who the (at least) one player is who you think should have his nummy retired. to me, nick and DA are very analogous — decent players, long tenures, fan favorites. so if you vote against one of them, i’d be surprised if you voted for the other. you’re with me, with having penny at the top of your list, aren’t you?? :)
i tell you this, i’d buy a front row seat just to boo the isht out of the Big Bonehead if his number was ever retired by the Dried Up Pond Magic with their panicky coach and copycat superstar.
Just wait and find out.
The whole purpose of this mini-series is to spur discussion. I don’t mind playing devil’s advocate just to chat with everyone here and figure out people’s thought processes with Armstrong.
Like I said before, I do think Darrell deserves to be in the discussion.
Whether or not he deserves the honor, that’s up to the fans.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
but i'm impatient... i like to open my presents on christmas eve.
you know who played some good ball for the magic back in the day? terry catledge. plus, i like that he wouldn’t give up #33 for that big, foolish rookie out of LSU.
That's a name I haven't heard in a while.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Yeah I wasnt trying to argue with anyone here- at least not my intention. I would love if they have a game every couple of years where they don the throwback jerseys and honor these guys. I’ve said since his playing days that I hope DA becomes involved with the team in some way (hopefully as an asst coach)
SUPER FAIL!
But would be appropriate given our brief but maligned history.
"Sold your body!! Oh Bender, I been down that road. I know it's glamorous, and the parties are great. But you'll end up spending every dollar you make on jewelery and skin-tight pants." -- Hubert J. Farnsworth
by Will Said Skills Pay the Billz? on Aug 11, 2009 8:45 PM EDT reply actions
Not really.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Yea, this franchise has a pretty darn decent record.. More playoff appearrances than not… 2 Finals appearrances, 1 was the fastest rise to franchise 1st Finals appearrance, the other 1 last season, and the strongest seasons yet to come. There were many expansion teams that came in around the time as the Magic, obviously called the expansion teams. VERY little years in existence compared to many other franchises, and critically acclaimed by many to be the BEST of all those expansion teams. Very few if any seasons could be said to be tanked, every Magic team has fought and fought for their records, for better or for worse. Ask Darrell Armstrong. Also notice how MANY horrible seasons other teams have had, the Magic have had so few, and when they have that horrible 2-3 seasons, they struck at the prolific-ly low chance of catching the number 1 draft pick and have picked the BEST choices – Shaq, Penny via move, DWIGHT HOWARD (grabbing Jameer same draft too). Sure the overall drafting history isnt too strong, but they got the important ones RIGHT, and they were’nt so easy to decide as it is in retrospect (kill me now.., I and many others wanted Emeka alil more back then!) And the most recent draft suggests Magic have good scouts currently. Now you got a new top arena in the country coming..
In all, I’d probably rank Magic like near the Top 10 franchises and one of the Top 3 right now considering roster age. If this doom and glooms you, go right ahead and feel it, its your right.
Top 10 franchise's? The BESTof the teams we expanded with?
I believe the Heat have an NBA title.
Argument Fail.
"Sold your body!! Oh Bender, I been down that road. I know it's glamorous, and the parties are great. But you'll end up spending every dollar you make on jewelery and skin-tight pants." -- Hubert J. Farnsworth
by Will Said Skills Pay the Billz? on Aug 11, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He said near the top ten, right now.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
also said Best of those we Expanded with
Defense Fail.
"Sold your body!! Oh Bender, I been down that road. I know it's glamorous, and the parties are great. But you'll end up spending every dollar you make on jewelery and skin-tight pants." -- Hubert J. Farnsworth
by Will Said Skills Pay the Billz? on Aug 12, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions
There were four teams that came into the league in 1989 and 1990
Miami Heat (win percent 48.2%)
Charlotte/New Orleans Hornets (49.1%)
Minnesota Timberwolves (41.9%)
Orlando Magic (50.4%)
Arguably, the Magic have been the best overall, based on win percentage. Yes, the Heat have won a championship. They’ve also had three seasons with less than 20 wins (the Magic have one – their inaugural season). The Heat have played 82 more games than the Magic (they entered the league 1 year earlier), and have 3 more wins. It would depend on whether you measured success as being consistently good or a roller-coaster with high peaks and low troughs, but either the Magic or the Heat would be the best of the expansion franchises, and the Magic have been better for most of their existence.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
You are right.
Darell Armstrong epitomizes the Magic Franchise and It would be awesome to see Armstrong in the rafters of the new arena, so we would be able to explain to everyone who was not a magic fan, Who he was and why he is up in the rafters.
Not Really?
Convincing…
"Sold your body!! Oh Bender, I been down that road. I know it's glamorous, and the parties are great. But you'll end up spending every dollar you make on jewelery and skin-tight pants." -- Hubert J. Farnsworth
by Will Said Skills Pay the Billz? on Aug 11, 2009 9:33 PM EDT reply actions
Oh. To be honest, I had no clue what your comment above was referring to.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
>obvious<
"Sold your body!! Oh Bender, I been down that road. I know it's glamorous, and the parties are great. But you'll end up spending every dollar you make on jewelery and skin-tight pants." -- Hubert J. Farnsworth
by Will Said Skills Pay the Billz? on Aug 11, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions
I voted yes
A player does not necessarily have to be an all-star to be an important player for the franchise.
What he did in 99 was pretty phenomenal with those 2 awards and he was pretty much the leader of that classic Heat and Hustle team.
Sure add him to the mix.
"My features are that of a god, its not a facade these rappers wanna be NaS"- Nasir Jones QB's Finest
Kristin Kreuk is teh love.
Still miss em: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvvgVn0gg1E
Hey,Wasabi,we're running out of place up there,you'd retire everyone's jersey :))
j/k,I voted yes,too. Darell was HUGE.
Penny and Darrell deserve a vote if it was up to me.
"My features are that of a god, its not a facade these rappers wanna be NaS"- Nasir Jones QB's Finest
Kristin Kreuk is teh love.
Still miss em: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvvgVn0gg1E
by Wasabi Steak on Aug 12, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Word.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

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