Will Vince Carter Improve on Defense?
Orlando's moves this offseason have been both praised, and highly criticized. That's what happens when you're active in the offseason after making the NBA finals. Some will feel your team that made the finals should be brought back the same, and some will feel that you should upgrade, given the fact that you didn't win.
The biggest move of the offseason has so far been trading for Vince Carter. It's been shown here through numerous posts that Vince is a clear upgrade on offense. He bests the player he's essentially replacing (Turkoglu) in almost every statistical category. However, it has also been mentioned that he is not a very good defensive player. First, let's compare Vince and Hedo in terms of some composite defensive statistics for the 2008-09 campaign: (All data taken from basketball-reference.com)
| DRTG | DWS | Net Defensive +/- | Opponent PER | |
| Hedo Turkoglu | 104 | 4.4 | -3.1 | 13.2 |
| Vince Carter | 112 | 1.8 | 5.6 | 16.6 |
As you can see, Hedo clearly played better on defense last year than Vince, as measured by defensive rating, defensive win shares, net defensive plus minus, and opponent PER. However, Hedo played on an elite defensive team, while Vince played on a young team with plenty of defensive deficiencies. Many people have made the argument that given the chance to play on an elite defensive team with the reigning DPOY he will improve significantly.
I thought it might be enlightening to look at other players who have been traded in similar circumstances, and how moving from a weak defensive team to an elite defensive team has impacted their own defense. Note, this is by no means a comprehensive analysis, I am only going to look at how this has impacted a few players to get an idea of what we might expect from Vince next year.
The players I'm going to look at are Brent Barry, Paul Pierce, Mario Elie, Tracy McGrady, and even Hedo Turkoglu. Here are their compiled statistics:
| Team Defensive Stats | Brent Barry Individual Stats | |||||
| DRTG | DRTG | DWS | Net Defensive +/- | Opponent PER | ||
| 2003-04 SONICS: | 108 | 2003-04 SONICS: | 108 | 0.7 | 0.4 | 18.5 |
| 2004-05 SPURS: | 98.8 | 2004-05 SPURS: | 102 | 2.6 | 1.5 | 9.5 |
| Differential | -9.2 | Differential | -6 | 1.9 | 1.1 | -9 |
| Team Defensive Stats | Paul Pierce Individual Stats | |||||
| DRTG | DRTG | DWS | Net Defensive +/- | Opponent PER | ||
| 2005-06 CELTICS: | 106.9 | 2005-06 CELTICS: | 106 | 3.3 | 10.3 | 14.8 |
| 2007-08 CELTICS: | 98.9 | 2007-08 CELTICS: | 100 | 5.6 | -0.9 | 12.5 |
| Differential | -8 | Differential | -6 | 2.3 | -11.2 | -2.3 |
| Team Defensive Stats | Mario Elie Individual Stats | |||||
| DRTG | DRTG | DWS | Net Defensive +/- | Opponent PER | ||
| 1997-98 ROCKETS: | 108.6 | 1997-98 ROCKETS: | 111 | 0.6 | Data unavailable | |
| 1998-99 SPURS: | 95 | 1998-99 SPURS: | 98 | 1.9 | ||
| Differential | -13.6 | Differential | -13 | 1.3 | ||
| Team Defensive Stats | Tracy McGrady Individual Stats | |||||
| DRTG | DRTG | DWS | Net Defensive +/- | Opponent PER | ||
| 2003-04 MAGIC: | 110.4 | 2003-04 MAGIC: | 110 | 0.4 | 2.4 | 17.4 |
| 2004-05 ROCKETS: | 101.7 | 2004-05 ROCKETS: | 101 | 5.3 | 9.1 | 13.3 |
| Differential | -8.7 | Differential | -9 | 4.9 | 6.7 | -4.1 |
| Team Defensive Stats | Hedo Turkoglu Individual Stats | |||||
| DRTG | DRTG | DWS | Net Defensive +/- | Opponent PER | ||
| 2002-2003 KINGS: | 110.4 | 2002-2003 KINGS: | 102 | 1.6 | 1.1 | 14.5 |
| 2003-04 SPURS: | 101.7 | 2003-04 SPURS: | 94 | 4.5 | -2.5 | 14.4 |
| Differential | -8.7 | Differential | -8 | 2.9 | -3.6 | -0.1 |
| Team Defensive Stats | Hedo Turkoglu Individual Stats | |||||
| DRTG | DRTG | DWS | Net Defensive +/- | Opponent PER | ||
| 2004-05 MAGIC: | 107.3 | 2004-05 MAGIC: | 110 | 1 | 1.2 | 15.4 |
| 2008-09 MAGIC: | 101.9 | 2008-09 MAGIC: | 104 | 4.4 | -3.1 | 13.2 |
| Differential | -5.4 | Differential | -6 | 3.4 | -4.3 | -2.2 |
As should be apparent, each of these players went from mediocre or even bad defensive teams to very good defensive teams. In the case of Paul Pierce, it wasn't so much that he was traded as the rest of the team was, and the end result was the same. Some of these players were not known as good defensive players, yet managed to perform well when placed on an elite defensive squad. Even Hedo Turkoglu, the player we are comparing Vince Carter to, performed somewhat better when going from the Kings (who were actually fairly good defensively) to the Spurs (who were excellent). His career in Orlando illustrates this better; as the Magic improved on defensive, so too did Turk.
Given the above data, I think it is by no means unreasonable to expect Vince to improve significantly defensively, and replicate the level of defense from the starters he is replacing. He has one of the best coaches in the league, an elite shot blocking big man behind him to protect the basket, and the motivation to buy into committing to being a good defensive player. While I don't think that these composite defensive statistics tell the whole story, I think they give a good understanding of the subjective notion that players can improve when moving from weak defensive teams to elite defensive teams.
If someone wants to do a more thorough analysis, tracking player moves and changes in defensive production, they would be welcome. It is certainly possible that my results are influenced by selection bias, and I'm sure not every player has improved when moving to a better defensive team so there must be some counter-examples as well.
Update: I updated the post to reflect additional statistical measures that were requested, namely net defensive plus minus, and opponent PER. Regarding the validity of these statistical measures, all of them have some shortcomings. As I mention in the comments, net defensive plus minus (and plus minus stats in general) exhibit a high degree of variance, which makes it difficult to rely on. On the other hand defensive rating is so tied to team performance that it also exhibits a degree of bias. Tied into all of this is the notion that defense is generally a team effort, so any aggregate measure will have some error from individual performance. Personally, I prefer a consistently biased measure to a measure with a high degree of variance because it contains an error that can be understood if not always accounted for. However, it always helps to have all the data available for a more complete picture. For more discussion on the bias-variance problem in estimation theory, see: http://www.aiaccess.net/English/Glossaries/GlosMod/e_gm_bias_variance.htm
A note of caution regarding opponent PER for Hedo Turkoglu's 2002-03 season: The data was not directly available to I calculated it myself manually, but I was in a bit of a hurry so I can't guarantee that the result was correct. If someone want's to double-check me that would be great.
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
7 recs |
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Comments
Thank you!
This just proves that defensive rating/defensive win shares have everything to do with the team’s defense, not the individual’s. Vince is far and away a better defensive player than Hedo. These players aren’t suddenly becoming better defenders, their new teammates are better defenders than their old ones. Look at anything John Hollinger has said about the Vince acquisition. Every time he mentions the trade he throws in how Orlando, already the best defensive team in the league, upgraded defensively.
It's not a dunk unless your hand makes contact with the rim. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, "Superman..."
I wouldn't go that far
While I do agree that these composite statistics do also reflect the team, it is unclear as to whether this is due to the nature of the statistic (in that it does not accurately reflect individual performance), or if it is due to the nature of defense itself (requiring a team effort for most individuals to be successful). I do know that a few individuals I looked at that were already good defenders on poor defensive teams did not show much change. I didn’t have the time to post any of those but maybe I will add them in as a comment later.
by Swami Digital on Jul 31, 2009 12:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There's just too many variables though
If there was some way to adjust individual defense with their teams defensive efficiency rating… I don’t know if that can be done. For example
You also have to account for which teammates are on the floor when the guy is playing. Its so hard to get into that tho.
Turk had a rating of 104. Thats only one higher than defensive aces Ron Artest and Trevor Ariza last season.
To further my point, look at Marcus Camby. He was defensive player of the year in 07, a defensive first teamer in 08. Last year, he moved to the Clippers. His defensive rating slipped 6 points to 104, the same as Hedo Turkoglu. Who would you rather have on defense, Turk or Marcus Camby. The stats say its a wash.
It's not a dunk unless your hand makes contact with the rim. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, "Superman..."
by ben_gleicher on Jul 31, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
There's ways to adjust DRtg but they haven't been done, yet.
That’s why I, and others, rely on adjusted defensive plus/minus, net plus/minus (on/off numbers), opponent PER, and more. Grouping those numbers together paint a decent picture.
In my humble opinion, it’s never advisable to use one strict metric to make a determination of a player’s skill in whatever it is that’s being examined. Using multiple metrics allows for flaws to be diminished, since each metric weights certain things more than others. Just trying to help.
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"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I meant to say, net defensive plus/minus.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
For the last time, defensive rating is a terrible metric to use.
It takes into account team defense way too much in the formula. I appreciate Swami Digital for taking the time to write up the post, but there are a number of red flags when using DRtg to examine a player.
Is Carter a better defender than Turkoglu? Hell no. The Magic did not upgrade defensively with the trade because Turkoglu was an above-average defender, statistically, and Courtney Lee was on his way to becoming a good defender, too. Vince has never been known to be a good defender, so to think Orlando is going to get better defensively with him is asinine to suggest. That’s the reality of the situation.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Carter is better than Turkoglu defensively.
Hollinger isn’t lying when he says the Magic upgraded defensively. Vince has superior lateral quickness, speed, athleticism, and anticipation. How many Nets games have you watched over the past few seasons?? Vince has never been known to be a good defender, but the reality is that he is solid. He’s just been on terrible defensive teams. Last year’s was the worst. If Orlando slips defensively it will only be because they had such an outstanding year last season thanks to Dwight.
It's not a dunk unless your hand makes contact with the rim. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, "Superman..."
by ben_gleicher on Jul 31, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I've watched a number of Nets games and I can't say I agree.
I will admit that part of VC’s troubles defensively have been a product of the teams he’s been playing on, but I still wouldn’t go out of my way to say he’s a better defender than Turkoglu.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
In what way is Turk a better defender?
He can’t guard the really quick small forwards, and he doesn’t have the kind of strength to body up the Carmelo types. He can guard the shooters well because of his height, but look at what Ariza did to him in the Finals.
It's not a dunk unless your hand makes contact with the rim. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, "Superman..."
I guess I'll let David Thorpe answer that question for you.
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-166/The-Michael-Jordan-of-Turkey—in-Free-Agency.html
You can say, look at what Ariza did to him in the Finals but I can come back and say, look at what Turkoglu did to Bryant in the entire fourth quarter of Game 2. It goes both ways.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Courtney Lee will never be a shutdown defender
For everything he does well, he’s too short. When it matters, Courtney Lee is of little concern for the Kobe’s and Lebron’s.
But like ben points out, Carter has the physical tools to cause problems for the top notch guys in the league. As others have noted, Carter has had some excellent defensive games against the likes of Kobe and Dwayne Wade on several occassions in recent years. It will be interesting to see how the motivation to win a championship changes Carter’s defensive effort and ultimately his performance.
In my humble opinion, that motivation combined with SVG will make a big big difference defensively for Carter. And I don’t think it’s asinine at all to say that Carter can be an upgrade over Lee and perhaps even Turkoglu. I actually expect it. Motivation, great coaching, and playing with Dwight Howard will make a big difference for Carter.
Never did I say that Lee was going to be a shutdown defender.
I didn’t even utter anything close to those words. All I said was that Courtney was on his way to becoming a good defender, which was true, given his defensive ability. People harp on Lee for getting blitzed by Kobe, but everyone seems to forget that he was a rookie. He’ll learn in time the different defensive nuances and tricks that he can get away with to be better prepared for that.
I’m biting my tongue on saying that Carter will be an upgrade over Lee and Turkoglu.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Here's what you said:
“The Magic did not upgrade defensively with the trade because Turkoglu was an above-average defender, statistically, and Courtney Lee was on his way to becoming a good defender, too.”
Here’s my response: Vince Carter is not replacing any shutdown defender for the Magic. Not Courtney Lee and not Hedo Turkoglu. Compared to Courtney Lee’s performance last year as a rookie, it is not unreasonable (or even unlikely) to predict Carter will exceed Lee’s contributions from last season. Carter has more to offer both in terms of physical skills (even at this stage in his career) and experience. Playing under SVG in a championship situation, I predict Carter will be every bit as valuable this year on defense as Courtney Lee was last year. Especially in the playoffs.
Compared to Turkoglu, it is a little different because Carter will usually draw a different matchup. But in no way is it asinine to say that, under “Magic” circumstances, Carter cannot offer to the 2 what Turk offered to the 3 — in terms of defense. By any account, Turk is a replaceable defensive player.
So to say that the Magic “downgraded” defensively is a little off in my view.
Well, I never said that the Magic downgraded defensively.
I said, as you quoted, that the team didn’t upgrade and I don’t feel the team did. Is it entirely possible, within that realm of the trade, that Orlando remains status quo defensively?
Sure. Will it happen? Pardon me for my apprehension to answering that question, ‘yes’.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I agree.
I, at least, wasn’t arguing for more than Vince coming in and maintaining the status quo defensively. I don’t think he will be an upgrade, though there is a slight possibility of a dramatic turnaround as what happened with Paul Pierce in 07-08. That dramatic of a shift is certainly not something that should be counted on or taken for granted, especially late in one’s career.
And there is certainly no guarantee that Vince won’t be a downgrade defensively, the only reason to believe otherwise is that other players in similar situations seem to have improved or performed better. That is not necessarily an indication of what will happen here, just a possibility.
by Swami Digital on Aug 2, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually it's a tradeoff
I thought about using net defensive plus minus as an indicator, and it does work well for some of the cases I looked up. However, there is a problem with this statistic, in that it shows extreme variance in cases where we empirically know it should be smooth. Really when looking at DRTG vs. Net Defensive plus minus as estimators of a player’s defensive impact, it’s a reflection of a basic tradeoff/problem in estimation theory, known as the bias-variance dilemma. (This page does a good job of describing it: http://www.aiaccess.net/English/Glossaries/GlosMod/e_gm_bias_variance.htm ) DRTG is an inherently biased estimator, while net defensive plus minus seems an unbiased estimator, but it has a large degree of variance. It is not that exactly, and I’m making a somewhat intuitive link, but I think that does a good job of describing the difference between the two statistics. I’ll go back and update this post with a greater diversity of statistical measures, and maybe some discussion of what they indicate. Yesterday was my birthday and I did the analysis quickly while waiting on some simulations to complete. (I was in a hurry so I would have free time in the evening.) Probably today I’ll have some more time. I do definitely agree that using multiple statistical measures together paints a far more complete measure.
by Swami Digital on Aug 1, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
That's why I use more than one measure, in an attempt to lower the inaccuracies.
I will be happy to admit that the defensive metrics I use to do my analysis are far from perfect, but like I always say, they do offer a decent picture of the defensive abilities of certain players. I think it’s important to note that I also look at basic figures, like blocks and steals (for guys like Howard and Paul), as well as use the naked eye to amass judgment on a player. I stand by the numbers, but I also stand by observation, because I feel like the two factors go hand-in-hand.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Excellent Analysis
I agree.
The only red flag is that +/- shows that when Carter entered the game the team defense suffered, and suffered badly. Really I think that only means that he is not a defensive stopper and if you don’t have a defensive anchor down low you can expect bad results. In Orlando’s case there is Dwight, so no worries.
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
The Magic will get a little worse, defensively, with Vince Carter.
But I think the gains offensively will make up for it.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I predict otherwise
Barnes is a boost defensively, as is Bass and the ability to play conventionally when necessary. And as I’ve said, I expect Carter to be better defensively than Courtnely Lee was last year.
Check back midseason.
The biggest downgrade defensively for the Magic is going from Alston to Jameer. But you can’t be upset about that overall
Alston vs Jameer
Alston gets more steals and blocks more shots (though he does neither much more than Nelson does), but Nelson is the better rebounder and much better at limiting penetration and bodying up on his man.
In the final analysis Nelson beats out Alston handily imo.
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
by Eyriq the Red on Aug 1, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
What?
Barnes isn’t a boost, defensively. At best, he’s average. Bass is a boost, defensively.
As for the downgrade from Alston to Nelson, that’s incorrect. Jameer was slightly better than Rafer on defense, last year. Given who’s coming in/who’s coming out, the Magic will dip defensively.
I have a hard time believing that Orlando will be #1 in defensive efficiency, again.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Are you crazy?
Having a long, physical guy playing 20-25 minutes on the perimeter is a plus for the Magic defensively.
What Barnes offers on defense is a primary motivation in Otis making that signing. I’m sure you’ve already seen the quote:
"He’s another bigger defender to defend the bigger forwards and guards in our league . . . He’s a tougher defender." -Otis.
And the headline to the signing in the Sentinel: “Matt Barnes Brings Defense, Passing to the Orlando Magic”
So it all begs the question, what are you talking about?
Like I said, Barnes is an average defender, at best.
A variety of numbers that I’ve looked at, point to that being the case. I don’t necessarily disagree that having him won’t be a plus, in Stan Van Gundy’s defensive scheme.
I’m merely speaking to Matt’s defensive ability, on its own merit.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
hmm
How do you factor in the fact that he played on horrible defensive of teams?
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I do factor that and aware of it.
.. which is why I stated I’m speaking on Matt’s defensive ability, on its own merit.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
IMO
The fact that Barnes is a longer, stronger, and pretty athetic guy who hopefully continues to bring the passion on defense, will at least make the guys he is defending work to make shots. If you watched the ECF, the difference was that LeBron had to work so hard to create plays for himself and his teammates that it appeared he was playing by himself. He didn’t have a reliable secondary guy to initiate offense like Kobe has in Lamar Odom. By the 5th game, he was worn out from the guys we were able to drape on him, so even when he did average 40 pts and 8 ast, it’s just a show of how much he means to his team, not necessarily how well he handled our defense. Having Barnes alongside Pietrus and Carter guarantees that somebody OTHER THAN Kobe and LeBron are gonna have to beat us. Individual “skills” don’t have as much to do with it as does buying into giving the effort. I thought J.J. played excellently on defense last year, but it was’t because of ability. I would rather have a less talented guy giving 100% effort than a gifted guy that half-asses it anyday.
Jameer vs. Alston is Soooo minor
If I had one possession, for the championship, defensively I would probably take Alston over Jameer. But it’s not a huge thing and doesn’t really matter. Neither one is a big part to any defense. So everyone chill.
I think it does matter because Alston had problems with quick & strong guards.
Andre Miller tore Rafer Alston apart in the first round, and that was because of his size, something that Jameer Nelson has the ability to circumvent because of his body type.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
one defensive possession for the championship...
ouch! is that a thinly-veiled reference to jameer’s terrible D on fisher’s back-breaking 3 at the end of game 4? that defensive possession/lapse arguably (not likely, but arguably) cost us the championship. but that was also shell-jameer, not real-jameer.
That didn't cost the team the title, and it isn't even in the realm of arguably.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
This is all silly
Dwight Howard by himself means the Magic will be right around the top of whatever defensive measurement you want to look at next year.
It’s just like the Spurs with Duncan over most of this decade - shuffling role players in and out yet still having a championship caliber D. That’s where the Magic are these days.
It's obvious that Dwight Howard is the defensive anchor for the team.
.. and because of that, yeah, Orlando will remain an excellent defensive squad with him.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
VC won't be asked to carry the load offensively
So he will have the energy to play defense. Also we need to take into account we have Pietrus to man up on the other teams best offensive wing player. This will let VC smother the Delonte West’s of the world
by Souwantmyname on Jul 31, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Even if Defensive Rating only reflects team performance...
Adding these players did not decrease team performance or cause these teams to lose their status as elite defensive teams. What I suspect is that although there are some players in the league who are elite “lockdown” defensive players and some who are just physically undersized or slow, the rest are average defenders that can perform quite well when placed in the right situation/system if they are willing to give the effort required. I don’t have any data to support this, it’s just an intuitive notion based on empirical observation, but it’s something that could be researched.
That is my impression too in trying to make sense of DRtg. This is certainly a context ridden stat, but there is nothing wrong with that. If you want to apply it universally it seems to function best when you consider separation from the team ORtg and DRtg. For instance Orlando’s team DRtg was 101.9 while New Jersey’s was 111. So in comparing Hedo to Carter for instance, Hedo’s Drtg was 104 while Carter’s was 112, showing that Hedo gave up 2 points more per 100 possessions than his teams average while Carter gave up 1 point more per 100 possessions than his team average. Neither were a team outlier, either good or bad, so I would say that neither are particularly great, nor particularly bad, on defense, and I think this is a safe conclusion to make. Further research on this application would be interesting, like you’ve stated.
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
by Eyriq the Red on Aug 1, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Well put.
That’s an accurate assertion in my opinion.
It's not a dunk unless your hand makes contact with the rim. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, "Superman..."
I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that may be true (your basic assertion).
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Updated
I updated the post with additional defensive statistical measures, and also added some thoughts regarding the various statistical measures. I don’t think the new numbers weaken my argument, except to note that plus minus stats can vary widely.
We have to check back during the season
This is really impossible to argue without seeing Vince in Orlando’s system. Offensively, its easier to tell who’s better who’s worse using statistics. Defense is another story. We have some budding statisticians at this blog and I’m sure we’ll continue to exhaust this for all its worth, but the debate won’t be settled till winter.
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I did speak with Stephen Ilardi, the man who helped develop adjusted plus/minus, stated ..
.. that when motivated, Vince Carter can be an above-average defender.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I think VC is a good test subject to see how he fits in with Orlando's defensive scheme.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

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