Vince Carter's Big Men - then and now

by The Dark on Jul 21, 2009 10:19 AM EDT

One of my personal beliefs is that it takes a good big man and a good little man to make a championship-caliber team. Shaq and Kobe, MJ and Horace, Duncan and Ginobili, Shaq and Wade...all had extremely good guards playing with solid (Horace Grant) or exceptional (Shaq and Timmy) big men. With that in mind, I wanted to do a brief look at Vince Carter's past big men, starting just before the Chris Bosh era. This is very shallow, because I didn't watch a lot of basketball during these years (I was in college and playing poker), and I didn't pay attention to Toronto at all, other than to make fun of the original uniforms.

2002-2003. Toronto. Antonio Davis, Greg Foster, Nate Huffman, Jelani McCoy, and Mamadou N'diaye.

Antonio Davis wasn't totally horrible. The rest of this rotation was. Especially Foster.

2003-2004. Toronto. Mengke Bateer, Chris Bosh, Antonio Davis, Donyell Marshall.

Marshall could shoot the ball, and Bosh was showing signs of becoming a great player. Unfortunately, Davis was slowing down with age, and Bateer wasn't an NBA-level talent.

2005-2006. New Jersey. Jason Collins, Marc Jackson, Clifford Robinson, Nenad Krstic.

Two aging veterans and a prospect, plus Marc Jackson. Krstic was probably the best of this bunch, since Collins and Robinson were no longer good players.

2006-2007. New Jersey. Josh Boone, Jason Collins, Mile Ilic, Nenad Krstic, Mikki Moore, Clifford Robinson.

Egads. The worst part of the line-up is, it was probably actually the best group Carter played with. This was Mikki Moore's Fluke Rule year (he was actually almost average), and Ilic only played 6 minutes (compiling an amusingly bad negative PER of -48.72). Krstic was solid, and Boone was decent. Collins and Robinson were definitely showing their age, but there were 3 guys that could ball.

2007-2008. New Jersey. Josh Boone, Jason Collins, DeSagana Diop, Nenad Krstic, Jamaal Magloire, Stromile Swift, Sean Williams.

When your two stat-producing bigs are Stromile Swift and Josh Boone, you've got issues. This was (fortunately) Collins' last season with the Nets. Magloire was about as effective on the court as I'd be (and I'm a good foot shorter). Krstic had a baaaaad year recovering from an ACL tear.

2008-2009. New Jersey. Josh Boone, Brook Lopez, Stromile Swift, Sean Williams.

Lopez was the best big on this team. Boone wasn't as good as the past two years, but still acceptable. Swift came back to reality, and Sean Williams was just kind of there.

PER-wise, it's bad:

2002-2003 - 0 players 15.00 or above, 2 players 12.50-15.00 (Davis and N'diaye), 1 player below 10.00 (Foster)

2003-2004 - 2 players 15.00 or above (Marshall and Bosh), 0 players 12.50-15.00, 1 player below 10.00 (Bateer)

2005-2006 - 0 players 15.00 or above, 2 players 12.50-15.00 (Krstic and Jackson), 2 players below 10.00 (Collins and Robinson)

2006-2007 - 1 player 15.00 or above (Krstic), 2 players 12.50-15.00 (Moore and Boone), 2 players below 10.00 (Collins and Robinson)

2007-2008 - 0 players 15.00 or above, 3 players 12.50-15.00 (Boone, Swift, and Williams), 3 players below 10.00 (Krstic, Collins, and Magloire)

2008-2009 - 1 player 15.00 or above (Lopez), 1 player 12.50-15.00 (Boone), 2 players below 10.00 (Williams, Swift)

The Magic (using this year's players, last year's PER): 1 player 25.00 or above (Howard), 3 players 15.00-20.00 (Lewis, Bass, Gortat), 1 player 12.50-15.00 (Anderson)

Now, I don't expect everyone's PER to stay that high, but it certainly suggests a different caliber of talent. The best big VC's ever played with before (the rookie Lopez) would be a distant second on Orlando, just barely ahead of Gortat. The second-best (06-07 Krstic) would be about equal to Brandon Bass. This should help VC make a deeper run this year, since there are finally post presences that opposing defenders have to respect, rather than focusing all their effort on stopping Carter.

This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

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Comments

Missing years?

What about 99-01???

Go to basketballreference for the PER’s

Very valid post for Magic fans who think Vince is a loser. He would only be a loser if he was a GM as well as a shooting guard.

by ben_gleicher on Jul 21, 2009 12:10 PM EDT reply actions

I didn't see any of those years (high school activities), so I can't really comment on the players, but here's the numbers:

1999-2000. Toronto. Antonio Davis, Sean Marks, Charles Oakley, Aleksandar Radojevic, Michael Stewart, Kevin Willis.

Radojevic and Marks combined for 36 minutes the whole season.

99-00 PER: 1 player over 15.00 (Davis), 3 players under 10.00 (Stewart, Marks, Radojevic)

2000-01. Toronto. Antonio Davis, Garth Joseph, Eric Montross, Mamadou N’diaye, Charles Oakley, Michael Stewart, Kevin Willis.

Willis was traded to Denver partway through the year. At the time, he had a 15.3 PER. Joseph was traded to Denver. He had a PER of 11.3 before the trade.

00-01 PER: 2 players over 15.00 (Davis, Willis), 3 players under 10.00 (Stewart, Montross, N’diaye)

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Jul 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Any individual who actually thinks about it should realize that VC was a product of his environment.

That’s not his fault. It happens ..

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jul 21, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions

coaching is a big issue as well, P.Jackson, P.Riley, G.Popivich, have owned the finals for years

by D-RAK on Jul 21, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions

Coaching is always important, sure.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jul 21, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Here's another way to look at it

Over the past two decades or or so, here are some of the big men on the teams that won NBA titles.

2009 – Pau Gasol
2008 – Kevin Garnett
2007 – Tim Duncan
2006 – Shaquille O’Neal
2005 – Tim Duncan
2004 – Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace
2003 – Tim Duncan
2002 – Shaq
2001 – Shaq
2000 – Shaq
1999 – Duncan, David Robinson
1995 – Hakeem
1994 – Hakeem

Notice a trend here. All these teams either had current hall-of-famers or sure-fire future hall-of-famers with two exceptions. One is this year’s Lakers team. Now Pau Gasol may wind up being a hall-of-famer, but it’s not a certainty yet. At the very least he’s a perennial all-star. And the 2004 Pistons…but that’s with Ben Wallace playing his best and a rejuvinated Rasheed Wallace. The gaps in the timeline? The Jordan Bulls. So basically since 1991, teams have needed a hall-of-fame and/or superstar big man to win a title. The exception to the rule was the team that had the greatest player and greatest coach of all time. Compare this list to the list of big men Carter played with and its obvious why he hasn’t won a title.

by Lee for three on Jul 21, 2009 3:23 PM EDT reply actions

Nenad Krstic :(

Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."

by Evan Dunlap on Jul 21, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions

I actually like Nenad Krstic. He was pretty good before his knee injury. A good guy too.

The Serbian Slam on Dwyane Wade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxzOMtb5_yE

by thermodynamic on Jul 21, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions

The European bball 'ship is coming soon

…and Krstic is our(Serbia) starting center. I’m pleased with that only because I have to be.
He’s good,but not THAT good.

by Dzogi on Jul 22, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions

Krstic was on pace to be an All-Star...

…when he felt a pop in his knee during a game against the Lakers on December 22, 2006. He was averaging 17 and 7 at the time and getting better every month. Knock-down shooter from the Center position, had range up to the 3pt line, and a very soft touch in the post.

by ben_gleicher on Jul 24, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Hey,nice to know you actually like one of our players... j/k

Yep,he’s good. I don’t know about All star,but ok

by Dzogi on Jul 25, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Well not anymore.

The injury shattered more than just his knee… he’ll never get that confidence back. And he was limited athletically before the injury, now he’s even less mobile.

by ben_gleicher on Jul 25, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions

He contributed pretty well for OKC last year

by Jwoey on Jul 24, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions

A better formulation would be all the title squads had perennial allstars, most with HOF'ers

B-wa, perhaps the least distinguished player on the list, was a multiple defensive MVP.

by Half-man Half-gortat on Jul 24, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright

Were the big men in the first 3-peet. Bill was average or below average. Horace Grant was a good player but he was not elite at all. He averaged a respectable 13-15 ppg and 8-10 rpg during the 3-peet years.

This is very similar to what Antonio Davis brought to the table. From 99 – 03, Davis averaged roughly 13-14 ppg and 9 rpb. And you must remember that I’m taking Horace Grant’s 3-peet years (his best numbers) while taking Antonio’s entire time with VC.

But even besides this point, Horace Grant was only on the Bulls for the 1st 3-peet. He when to Orlando through free agency. After Horace left, the Chicago Bulls had their 2nd 3-peet with Luke longely and Will Purdue! At BEST these are average big men and no where close to Shaq or Duncan.

Basically the second 3-peet of the Chicago Bulls disproves your hypothesis. They had no big men of quality. Their duo was Pippen and Jordan. Even during the first 3-peet, everyone knows that it was Jordan and Pippen, not Jordan and Horace Grant, lol.

It’s very nice to have a big man, but far from necessary. I wouldn’t consider Pau Gasol or Kevin Garnet as true big men. They are highly skilled power forwards. They are not Shaq/Duncan. It’s not power they posses but skill. And yet the last two years the champions have been teams with Garnet and Pau in the middle.

And i think what you mean is a DOMINANT big man, correct? Horace Grant was far from being a dominant big man. Of course he was solid. But in order to win a championship, EVERY POSITION on your team must be solid. You cannot have many weaknesses. And again, in VC’s instance we are not talking about winning a championship. He has NEVER been out of the second round. Surely he did not have the team around him to do so (win the championship), but surely he could have made the playoffs more than 6 out of 11 years and he had the team to be able to get out of the 2nd round at least 1 time in 11 years.

by plyka on Jul 22, 2009 12:03 AM EDT reply actions

You seriously just argued words to the effect of, "Well, Michael Jordan won titles with Horace Grant as his best big man, so Vince Carter should have been able to win one with Antonio Davis."

Wow.

Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."

by Evan Dunlap on Jul 22, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Right...figures, from a Laker fan who's bored this summer.

Hey plyka, u guys found replacement for Odom yet?

by pianolady on Jul 22, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions

according to that logic

Vince Carter = Michael Jordan!! :O We’re so awesome this year.

Still a girl.

by TheGiantSquid on Jul 22, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions

Hi Ben

No i really didn’t. In my last paragraph it clearly states: “Surely he [VC] did not have the team around him to do so (win the championship), but surely he could have made the playoffs more than 6 out of 11 years and he had the team to be able to get out of the 2nd round at least 1 time in 11 years.”

And VC wasn’t even the point of my post. The point was that a dominant big man is a luxury to have, but far from necessary.

by plyka on Jul 22, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions

So what happened to Kobe?

From 2002 to 2008, he missed the playoffs for the only time in his career, only made it out of the second round twice, and didn’t win a single championship. During that time, every big man he played with except one was better than any big man Vince Carter has ever played with – even Chris Mihm’s advanced statistics are better than Antonio Davis’. Only the rookie Bynum had worse stats. If a dominant big man is a luxury, than explain why Kobe’s biggest stretch of failure was when he had solid but not spectacular big men, and he immediately became successful again upon getting elite big Pau Gasol.

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Jul 22, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions

So Plyka?.. lol

by derekk on Jul 23, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions

A dominant big man is a necessity, not a luxury.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jul 23, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions

Congrats on another failed post.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jul 22, 2009 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

look at you and your snarky self!

Still a girl.

by TheGiantSquid on Jul 22, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions

wow

Based on the “moderator’s” comment i would have to say…all you magic fans are INSANE, lol…good luck next year.

by plyka on Jul 22, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions

oh please, dude

erivera is never riled up enough to make such comments, so you win at being obnoxious. Congrats! :D

Still a girl.

by TheGiantSquid on Jul 22, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions

What are you talking about?

Once again, you go and put words in other people’s mouths. I rarely make a sarcastic comment towards someone. Everyone here knows I’m a chill person, but when someone crosses a line ..

.. I get annoyed.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jul 23, 2009 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions

You clearly did not read the paragraph below the list

Where I say the exception to the rule in the past two decades was the team that had the greatest player and coach of all time. Neither Lebron nor Kobe has been able to do it without a legitimate presence in the post. While Garnett and Gasol aren’t just post players, they can and do thrive there when needed.

Just take a look at how Kobe did in the period between Shaq and Pau. I believe it was 3 seasons, 2 playoff appearances and 2 first round exits. And then he whined about wanting to be traded. Those numbers sound strikingly familiar to someone you’ve been bashing. Hmmm, who could it be? Wait, I know, it’s Vince Carter. Kobe, in his prime, could not get his team past the first round with a weak supporting cast. And he only had to do it for three years. Vince has had to do it pretty much his whole career.

by Lee for three on Jul 22, 2009 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions

From 90-91 to 92-93, Horace Grant had an ORtg of 118 to 132, a DRtg of 102 to 105, and a PER of 17.6 to 20.6.

From 99-03, Davis had an ORth of 99 to 103, a DRtg of 102 to 107, and a PER of 11.8 to 16.5.

Given that Vince didn’t have a Pippen to distract attention away from him as a scorer, if he had won with Antonio Davis as his best big, he would be a far better player than Jordan. Obviously, he isn’t, and he didn’t, because his team was worse than the Bulls.

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Jul 22, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions

Two years of superlatives for comparison:

These are the two earliest years mentioned for both, to have the youngest players.

Horace Grant:

1990-1991: Offensive Rebounds (12th), Total Rebounds (20th), eFG% (14th – Jordan was 15th), Offensive Rebound % (10th), Turnover % (17th), Offensive Rating (3rd), Offensive Win Shares (18th), Win Shares (17th)

1991-1992: Field Goal % (3rd), Offensive Rebounds (3rd), Defensive Rebounds (18th), Total Rebounds (13th), Blocks (15th), Rebounds per Game (14th), Blocks per Game (18th), PER (13th), True Shooting % (5th), eFG% (3rd), Offensive Rebound % (6th), Total Rebound % (17th), Turnover % (15th), Offensive Rating (1st), Defensive Rating (7th), Offensive Win Shares (4th), Defensive Win Shares (8th), Win Shares (3rd)

Antonio Davis:

1999-2000: Offensive Rebounds (9th), Total Rebounds (16th), Personal Fouls (19th), Rebounds per Game (15th), Offensive Rebound % (13th), Defensive Rebound % (18th), Total Rebound % (17th)

2000-2001: Offensive Rebounds (6th), Defensive Rebounds (18th), Total Rebounds (10th), Blocks (12th), Rebounds per Game (9th), Blocks per Game (13th), Offensive Rebound % (8th), Defensive Rebound % (20th), Total Rebound % (15th), Block % (19th)

The difference? Horace Grant has offensive and defensive superlatives. Davis has only defensive (excluding offensive rebounds). In the better of Davis’ two years, he had 10 superlatives, with an average place of 13th. Grant had 19 superlatives in his better year, with an average position of 9th. To give a comparison, in 2000-01, Vince Carter had 18 superlatives. To say Grant wasn’t an elite player is questionable at best. He certainly wasn’t a flashy player, but what he did, he did very very well.

"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"

by The Dark on Jul 23, 2009 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions