What exactly do you mean? you mean the second round of the playoffs. VC has never won, in his entire long career, in the second round of the playoffs. VC has been in the league since 1998 —that’s 11 years. His teams have made it to the playoffs 6 of those years. That means almost half of the time VC teams never even made it to the playoffs. One must also take into consideration that he has played with some great players. The Nets teams of the early 2000’s, who went to the NBA finals twice in 02 and 03. VC got there in 04. Jason Kidd in his prime and Richard Jefferson, also a great player. This last year he played with Devon Harris, one of the best PG’s in the entire league. The years VC teams made it to the playoffs, he has NEVER gotten past the 2nd round.

It really depends on what your definition is of a winner/loser. This post is obviously due to thermodynamics and myself’s argument in another thread. I was the guy who said, and i quote myself: “VC is a loser. He loses at things.” Because my definition of winner/loser is how you and your TEAMS perform in the playoffs. I could care less what happens in the regular season. The regular season in the NBA reminds me of the pre-season in football. Who really cares? What matters, what makes CHAMPIONS is the playoffs. And in order to be considered a WINNER, you must do more than miss the playoffs almost HALF of the years you’ve played in the NBA, and the times you make it to the playoffs you fail to even get out of the 2nd round.

In your post you’ve made plenty of excuses for the guy. He always loses to some sort of winner. Well, by definition they are winners cause they beat VC’s teams, lol. And if the teams which always beat VC in the second round of the playoffs or earlier, are always winners, VC by definition is the loser. Some excuses say: VC’s team lost to Ewing who’s team went on to the Eastern Conference Finals. Does it make it any better that he lost in the second round to a team which lost in the third round?

You also list as one of his clutch performances and “accomplishments,” a game against the Toronto Raptors in the REGULAR SEASON. I’m sorry, if one of your highlights of a clutch performance is of the regular season, then your resume sucks. This would be ok for a new player, but someone who has been in the league for 11 years!

Also what must be noted is that the Net’s went to the finals for 2 years —the two years preceding the time of VC’s arrival. VC came to the Nets and they lost Kenyon Martin. Kerry Kittles (role player) was also lost and some other lower level players left/traded/etc. They never made it BACK to the finals with VC, in fact they never even got passed the 2nd round.

Compare this track record to someone who you consider a winner.

You brought up Michael Jordan and said that he went to the playoffs 6 consecutive years before making it to the finals. Well, this is a great record. But what makes Michael Jordan a winner is not that he made the playoffs every year since he entered the league until 1991, but that after 1991 he won the championship 6 times!!

What about a Kobe? I believe he has only missed the playoffs 1 time in his 13 year career. He has been to the NBA finals 6 times and he has won the Championship 4 times.

Magic Johnson, if memory serves NEVER missed the playoffs, went to the finals 9 times and won 5 rings.

Shaq has gone to the NBA finals 6 times and has won 4 rings.

Even someone who has never won a ring like Karl Malone/John Stockton. These two, with bad teams and running up against Jordan made the finals 3 and 2 times respectively and got into the playoffs basically every year (i’m going by memory). They ran deep into the playoffs numerous times. Even though they have never won a championship, they are WINNERS in my book.

Charles Barkley / Patrick Ewing these guys are known as great players who never won a ring. But they at least made deep runs numerous times and have each gone to the NBA finals. They are winners in my book.

These are WINNERS. These are CHAMPIONS and ALL-TIME GREATS in my book. VC has never made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs. There is no way in heck any unbiased individual can claim that VC is a winner. The guy is a loser. He loses. It is what he does. Luckily, he still has time. He is with the magic now. If he can play on this team and lead them to the finals, then i will say that VC is no longer a loser. If he has multiple runs deep into the playoffs, he is not a loser. If he wins a ring, i say that he is a winner. Until then to claim that he is a winner because he played well in All-Star games and has had a game winner in a regular season game, or has had a lot of votes from fans to the all-star game, or that he won the dunk championship or he was on the all-rookie team, etc, to say that he is a winner because of these things all the while knowing that when it COUNTED he could not win. That when it comes to taking your team and making it to the playoffs (missed 5 out of 11 playoffs), taking your team to the championship or close (never got passed the 2nd round), this guy has come up way way way short. HE has proven over the long run that he loses. Pure and simple.

I understand that now since VC is apart of the magic all you magic fans need to “defend his honor.” It’s understandable. It makes sense.

Nevertheless, when excuses RULE the day —-when the supporters of VC cannot point to positives, but EXCUSES of why VC loses over and over, then you know the battle is lost already.

This is how every excuse you guys come up with should start:

“Yes VC is a loser and never wins and this is why it is not his fault…”

1. Attitude problem — you don’t quit on your team, your coach and your fans (and admit that you did), and then completely wipe the slate clean with a few decent seasons on a mediocre team. Especially not when there are plent of stories/perceptions such as this one out there: "Two weeks ago, I attended a Clips-Nets game two days after Vince Carter tweaked his back in Utah. Knowing Vince would play, knowing the Clips would stick Quentin Ross (aka, “Bruce Bowen 2.0”) on him, knowing that Vince would probably struggle, I almost felt like starting a “When will Vince pull and Exit Stage Right during the game?” pool in my section. He came out firing (the back looked fine, by the way) before realizing that Ross would be hounding him all game. Eventually, he stopped going within 20 feet of the basket. So I’m sitting there waiting for him to start stretching, wincing and doing all the other stuff that Vince does when he wants the crowd to know that he’s thinking about packing it in for the night. At the end of the first half, he had one point. Midway through the third, he had 3 points and the Nets were down by 20. Then there was a 2-on-1 with Kidd when Vince stepped on someone’s foot, landed a little awkwardly, waved to his bench as the whistle was blown, then kept right on jogging … right into the runway and into the locker room. We never saw him again. Even better, we knew right away that he wasn’t coming back." The negative perceptions of his attitude/competivie spirit are out there for a reason. Where there’s smoke, there’s usually fire. Overall, he seems to be moving in the right direction, but I think this stop in Orlando will be critical in cementing his legacy (one way or another) in this regard. This is his final real proving ground.

2. I agree re the injury stuff. He creates negative perceptions of himself by pulling things like that described above and by often looking like he’s been shot with a harpoon when a hangnail pulls loose, but overall his injury stats are not unusual.

3. “VC is a loser”. Yes, I agree that you can’t definitive say he’s a loser. But the fact is, he has never won anything. During years in which the East was woeful, he never made it out of the second round. He has never really had an epic playoff series (at least not that I’m aware of). Also, his UNC teams never made it to the NCAA finals. Again, you can cite reasons for this, but the bottom line is that he has not won anything of significance.

I think if he comes here, stays healthy, and has some big performances in a championship season (or 2), he’d be remembered as a top 50 player of all-time. I think if he comes here and is less successful he’ll be remembered as a good player and a great dunker who had some issues. Big difference.

1. Vince Carter has never been the best player on an NBA title contender.

2. Vince Carter is not the best player on the Magic.

3. As good as Vince Carter is, one could make a strong argument that he’s not even one of the three best players on the Magic.

(3a. The player he nominally replaced, Hedo Turkoglu, was definitely the no. 4 guy on the team while Jameer was healthy.)

4. No NBA team on which Vince Carter was the fourth-best player has ever failed to win a championship.

5. Ergo, the Magic are clearly a lock to win the title.

Q.E.D. (Or not.)