Did Otis Smith outsmart Donnie, or himself?
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 9:41 AM EDT
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(Originally posted this on Mavs Moneyball, but I'd like the Orlando perspective on it as well.)
Having been one of the people most convinced that Otis Smith had no intention of matching the offer sheet for Gortat, I was pretty shocked when the news came down on Monday that they had done just that. The popular theory in Mavericks-Land is that Otis was playing Donnie the whole time. My personal theory is that the man has no idea what he's doing.
When free agency began, Hedo Turkoglu was probably the hottest player available. He had just come off an excellent performance in the NBA Finals, and was playing for a team that was upfront about the fact that they were prepared to let him go, because re-signing him, or even including him in a sign and trade scenario, would push them too far into luxury tax territory.
Turkoglu had been a critical piece of the team that got Orlando to the Finals, and was one of the most praised individual players of the entire series. That being said, when it came down to dollars and cents, Orlando simply did not feel that he was a twenty million dollar a year player, which is what they would have had to have paid in combined salary and luxury tax to keep him. One week later, Hedo signed a five-year, fifty-three million dollar contract with the Toronto Raptors ( I'm leaving out all of the Portland stuff, and the Marion sign and trade silliness, as it has no effect on the time line).
It made perfect financial sense for them to allow him to leave, and let his minutes be taken by younger, cheaper players such as Ryan Anderson and (later) Brandon Bass. At the same time, Orlando made a move showing that they intended to win now by bringing in a thirty-two-year-old Vince Carter.
Here's where it gets a little screwy. If you combine the guaranteed money contracts that Orlando has now taken on between Bass ( four years, eighteen million dollars) and Gortat (five years, thirty-four million dollars), you come up with a figure nearly identical to the money that Toronto paid for Hedo, and the head scratching realization that the Magic have pushed themselves deep into luxury tax territory in order to create a lineup that is doubtlessly less effective than the one they could've had if they had simply kept Turkoglu to begin with.
Nelson-Carter-Howard-Lewis-Turkoglu is the kind of starting five that can win a team an NBA title.
Nelson-Carter-Howard-Lewis-???, with Bass, Anderson, and Gortat all fighting for minutes at the same spot, while costing the Magic well over twenty million dollars a year between them, is a recipe for confusion.
Otis Smith might eventually become known as the GM that led the Orlando Magic to an NBA championship, but at the moment he strikes me more like a dog with two bones, who refuses to leave either behind, and ends up being caught by the dogcatcher.
Meanwhile, the Mavericks still have their MLE to spend on a guy like Von Wafer, and the trade chips to go out and find themselves another center. It would've been simpler for them if the Magic had simply declined, but they're still in a far better situation than they were when last season ended.
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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Create a lineup that’s less effective? How do you know that? The Orlando Magic haven’t played a game, yet their roster isn’t as effective as last year? No one can empirically make that assertion. Not now.
Here’s where it gets a little screwy. If you combine the guaranteed money contracts that Orlando has now taken on between Bass ( four years, eighteen million dollars) and Gortat (five years, thirty-four million dollars), you come up with a figure nearly identical to the money that Toronto paid for Hedo, and the head scratching realization that the Magic have pushed themselves deep into luxury tax territory in order to create a lineup that is doubtlessly less effective than the one they could’ve had if they had simply kept Turkoglu to begin with.
I don’t agree with this because if you re-sign Hedo Turkoglu to whatever he demanded with the Toronto Raptors, you sacrifice flexibility by locking up a 30 year-old player in a 5 year deal. Signing Bass and Gortat makes more sense because a.) they fill needs and b.) they’re both in the prime of their careers.
What the Magic have right now is a roster with a ton of flexibility. You’re issue with Anderson, Bass, and Gortat fighting for minutes is nullified by the fact that Bass can play the 4/5, Gortat will probably see more minutes at the 4/5, and Anderson will probably play predicated on the matchups. It’s not that confusing. Besides, I didn’t know having too many big bodies was a problem. That’s what the Detroit Pistons had a few years back.
If you don’t want to give Otis Smith credit, that’s your prerogative.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
by erivera7 on Jul 14, 2009 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
there were a lot of assumptions and claims made in that post, based mostly on the posters opinion. I guess opinions holds more weight than empirical evidence in Dallas.
"One thing about knowing that you're dying is that it keeps reminding you you're alive so it's no time to pass up a party."
- Warren Zevon
by Wally Balls 407 on Jul 14, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
It's fine .. I'm glad he posted it. Creates discussion.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I don't remember anything in the post claiming it as fact.
"Fun fact: Larry Hughes, who couldn’t stay healthy if all his human parts were replaced with bionic implants, is out for the next four weeks with a bruised leg. Do you think that Willis Reed ever reads about all these players missing time with bruises and sprained fingers and throws up in his mouth a little?"
Guys
not to burst your bubble, but Bass is a legit 6’6" at the most…He won’t give many quality minutes at the 5. He never played there for the Mavs. Dirk slid to the 5 and Bass played the 4 for what it is worth…
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
"you're fuckin out" (Kenny Powers)
Texas Rangers Baseball: Built to start piece of shit retreads like Dustin Nippert in intradivisional play in July!!!
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jul 15, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Bass keeps shrinking?!?!?!
quick trade him before Jameer starts to look down on him
by Souwantmyname on Jul 15, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm ..
http://www.82games.com/0809/08DAL13.HTM#5man
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
this is what im saying.....
ive been ignoring everybody talking about his inadequacy at the 5…all the while knowing what the stats say on 82 games………..
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
He played over 2/3rds of his minutes at the 5 for Dallas last year
And he measured at 6’07", in shoes, prior to the 2005 draft.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
by Evan Dunlap on Jul 15, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
6'7" with shoes
That’s a 6’6" player at most. YOu don’t count shoes when measuring someones height.
Who cares. He's undersized .. what's the difference.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
You do in basketball.
They play in shoes. He’ll be 6’07" on the floor.
Really, this isn’t a difficult concept.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
Ben can you settle the debate over Bass
Do we have the number’s on Bass’s wing span and vertical. If possible could you do a comparison with similar existing NBA players so we have a reference
by Souwantmyname on Jul 17, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
7'02" wingspan, 8'10" standing reach, 31.5" no-step vertical, 33" max vertical
Comparisons to other PF/Cs
Wingspan – Tyrus Thomas (7’03")
Reach – Joakim Noah (8’10.5")
No-step vert – Carl Landry (31.5")
Max vert – Joey Dorsey (33")
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
Sounds good to me...
Besides, we all know how guys have late growth spurts…his height was measured in 2005. That’s 4 yrs to grow a lil bit. Remember, Dwight was list as 6’ 10" 225lb or o in 2004. Now he’s more like 6’11" 270lb. Big difference once he finished puberty, lol. If you need another example, just look at LeBron. Nuff said.
Thanks alot Ben
Bass’s wingspan is huge!!! Which more than makes up for his lack of height. Plus ha has a good enough standing jump to contest/block the shot of taller PF’s. All we need is to teach him the Magic’s brand of defense and he will be a stud
by Souwantmyname on Jul 17, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
You do, actually
The guys play basketball in shoes, so they get measured in them. Every height measurement in NBA stats is in shoes.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 20, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not that complicated. Vince is an upgrade over Turk. If you had watched the Magic all season long, Turk is the player that can drive you absolutely nuts. Yeah he played ok in the finals…but I would argue he played awful in the other series.
Signing Gortat (although I didn’’t see it coming) gives te magic flexibility. The Magic now have a sick backup who will have a lot of trade value in December. Cuban just got completely worked in this situation. If the Magic can sign Von Wafer or Barnes and sign the PG from the summer league, Otis has earned all of my trust.
Wafer has more upside correct? I haven’t seen these players a lot. I just remember Wafer going off in one game.
Bam Bam -- thank you, i think that was a thoughtful post
and it’s interesting to hear the perspective of a fan from another team on our moves. That said, I largely agree with Eddie’s response above. To reiterate some of his points. Ok, forget it, D-rak and Derekk have sufficiently reiterated. Bottom line: for this team (with Vince), I’d far prefer to be locked into the Bass and Gortat contracts than the Turgkoglu contract.
Hedo for 5 yr contract is what killed it. Magic made 4 yr 36mil which for 5 woulda been 45mil. and they supposedly did do a final offer of that 5 yr 45-46mil anyways. That killsroster flexibility down the line. Hedo is also a horrible player w/o the ball in his hands alot, something VC will do and better. Jameer PGing before injury also showed a slightly diminished Turk, he needs the ball to stay focused. If you saw the Finals, please tell me again getting Bass, Anderson, Gortat is screwy because I saw a Lakers frontline demolish Dwight by himself. Those are much, much needed moves and great ones at that. The frontcourt is now all 25 or younger while prolly being one of the best in the league if not the best (hoping Bass/Anderson and Dwight play great together)
Your Dallas FO should be smart enough to know it was very possibly coming or really that it is coming with some thinking behind it. Not that Dallas FO is bad, I love it, they consistently spend and make moves for the best of the team, but I was astounded to not see Dalllas S/T Bass or a minor deal to placate Magic from matching a great asset. 12, count 12 teams, were interested in Gortat this summer. Next summer (with more teams with cap space)?
the fact is re signing Turk would limit the options when its time to re sign Dwight, every move Otis made falls in line with that plan(window). except Gortat, wich he’s the easy one to trade out of the bunch.
2 ,THE BEAUTY: after the league is reshaped in 2010 (or sooner)? we will have a ton of room to adjust -if need be
its like Gumby driving a Caddie, FLEXABLE AND LOADED WITH OPTIONS!
its not like he handcuffed himself to side show bob for 60 mil 5 yrs
I'll add that criticizing the team for having too much depth is .. well, I don't get it.
People made the same criticism last year when it seemed that Orlando had too many shooting guards. Well, Pietrus got hurt, Lee got hurt, and people then said .. “damn, glad we have that depth”.
It’s a catch-22.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
addition by subtraction?
I cant believe no one has pulled Odom from LA , if im in the west im going for him for the simple fact that the Lakers will have a awefuly hard time getting back to the finals with out him. make your team better and the best team not so intimidating. if im a contending team in the west im giong hard after Lamar.
I'd be shocked if Odom went anywhere else but Los Angeles .. that move seems inevitable.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Yeah but...
What happens now that he might be headed to Miami…Who is Portland gonna woo now?
d-rak -- agreed re odom except that
i don’t think any of the west contenders (including dallas) have the cap room to sign the goods to a lucrative deal. and obviously the lakers aren’t going to be signing and trading to facilitate this. the only possible exception is portland — you could argue that they should’ve offered their cash to odom instead of millsap (and maybe they did); however, it seems like they’re trying to build a young core there that can mature together. san antonio, denver, new orleans, houston, etc can’t afford odom.
I said it on Mavs Moneyball, and I'll repeat it here...
Otis Smith is a business man, who made a business decision, and was well within his right to do so. I don’t hold it against him, even though I am disappointed. However, the questions I’m asking here are the same ones I would be asking of my own team if they had decided to keep Brandon Bass.
Bass as a backup at eight hundred thousand dollars a year was an absolute steal, but keeping him at four or five million dollars a year (doubled up by the luxury tax), to back up our best player, especially after acquiring Shawn Marion, just didn’t make any sense. In my mind, the same goes for Gortat. He’s backing up the best player in the game at his position, a guy who’s missed three games in his entire career, and regularly plays forty minutes a night ( more in the playoffs). His team just acquired two other young power forwards, who he is now going to have to fight for minutes with.
The question I just keep asking, and I think it’s fair one, is whether Orlando is getting value for all that money. Several of you have made fair points about why it makes sense, but there’s a big difference between justifying a decision and making it. Sports fans can justify almost any decision that their teams make, but looking in from the outside, this one is pretty puzzling to me.
From my perspective, here’s the real issue. Are the Orlando Magic really seventy million dollars better today than they were yesterday? If the answer is yes, then Smith made the right decision, but I find that a very difficult conclusion to come to.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
Bass is worth his price tag.
Gortat, given that he is strictly coming to come off the bench, is not worth the price tag. That isn’t to say he’s overpaid in the strictest sense. He’s not .. he’s overpaid because he isn’t starting. There’s a difference. Is that a problem? Depends on how you look at it. When I talked to Otis yesterday, he told me that he’s protecting an asset. That makes sense. First, you can’t afford to let a player go for nothing. Second, if you have the chance to retain a starting caliber player at a position that is scarce in the NBA, you do it. No question. The Magic can worry about the finances later, the organization wants to win.
Orlando is better now than before. Easily. People wish that the team could have re-upped Hedo Turkoglu looking back on it. Sure, that would have been nice, but it would have been redundant. Signing Bass and Gortat isn’t redundant. They fill needs. I also think the competition is going to be good because it’ll bring out the best in players. I see almost nothing wrong with what the Magic have done.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Bass is worth the money to Orlando...
Nobody’s arguing that. (Though I personally don’t think the market for him was that high, and he could have been had for less if Orlando had shown more patience.) Gortat is worth the money for Dallas, because they intended to start him and hopefully give him big minutes every night. My point is simply that both of them together on the same team could very well lessen the value of each, and if you’re going to pay that same money anyway, why not just keep Hedo? The argument that he’s thirty doesn’t really make sense to me, since Orlando traded for VC, who’s even older, makes twice as much, and plays a position where athleticism is at a greater premium.
Obviously they’re in a “win now” mode, so why not dance with what got you here?
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Because, again, the team is looking for flexibility in the future.
It makes no sense re-signing Hedo Turkoglu to a 5 year contract when you can get Vince Carter to a two year contract, with a team option for a third year which I doubt Otis Smith picks up. And when Carter is a better player than Turkoglu, then .. I mean, shoot, this isn’t even a comparison.
It’s not that hard to see the difference in what that flexibility means in re-tooling the roster.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Like I said, a sports fan can justify anything their team does...
So let’s drop Hedo from the argument entirely. Personally, I think teaming him with Dwight, Lewis, Carter, and Nelson would make you guys potential favorites in the NBA for the next couple of years, and so long as you have Dwight Howard “flexibility” is going to be pretty easy to come by.
But the other question still stands. Are the Orlando Magic $70,000,000.00 (Gortat’s contract, times two because of the tax) better today than they were on Sunday?
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Yes, drop the Turkoglu vs. Gortat/Bass angle
from your argument and I think you have a very legitimate point. And it’s a point I’ve been making on our board. I was shocked that we matched for Gortat. I don’t think there is any way you can justify paying a 10-12 minute guy 5/$35mm. My best guess is that Otis feels that there is a legitimate trade market (starting Dec 15) for Gortat at that price, and for that reason decided it was worth the risk to keep him.
The risk is substantial: if Gortat gets hurt, has a bad attitude or somehow changes the perception of his value we are stuck with a big bad contract and a way overpaid backup to a top 5 player in the leauge. It’s something that could constrain us (along with Rashard’s contract) for years to come. For these reasons, I think it was far from a no-brainer to match.
That said, Otis has (somewhat to my surprise at various times) played almost all the right notes in his tenure thusfar, so I give him the benefit of the doubt in the risk/benefit calculus that he made. If DeVos is willing to spend this kind of $$, and we turn Gortat into a Battier or a Troy Murphy in a few months, then it was a fantastic move. I think there is roughly a 3% chance that Gortat plays out his 5 years in a Magic uniform; hopefully he will continue to work hard and make a great market for himself.
The trade market will be there...
But as I understand the rules, Gortat has veto power for a year. And whoever you trade him for, you’re still on the hook for that salary as well.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Gortat veto power
1. Gortat will be extremely likely to approve any trade to a team where he will start. Even if he doesn’t, then fine, we have to wait 1 year (i.e. 20% of the contract duration). Not a huge deal.
2. Yes, we have to pay the salary we trade for. My response: so what? Your crux of your argument is that we shouldn’t be paying a 10-12 minute guy this much money. If we trade him for a valuable 30 minute guy, your argument goes away.
Where's the team who's going to give you a 30-minute player for Gortat?
And where are you going to play them when they get here? Minus injuries, four spots are already spoken for, so unless you’re throwing in a starter, whoever you traded for would have to be a PF. So now you’ve gone from overpaying for Gortat, to overpaying (even more) for Bass.
Listen, I’m honestly not trying to troll here, or pick a fight with the entire board. I’m just pointing out that this really does strike me as a “dog with two bones” scenario, and just doesn’t make a ton of sense from where I’m standing.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I know, you seem to be making honest points
You’re switching your arguments around a bit, but that’s fine. Seriously, no trolling or offense taken. My response to your question is this: off the top of my head, either Troy Murphy or Antawn Jamison could be available to come in, fit perfectly at the 4 in our system, and play 30+ minutes a night. They are also both teams that could be very ready by February to trade a high-priced vet for a young, talented big. Capice?
Or, if we want to talk really aspirationally...
Gortat could be a key piece in a Bosh or Stoudemire trade at the deadline when one of those teams panics that they’re not going to get anything for a star free-agent-to-be. I.e. Gortat, Bass and a first rounder for either of those guys. Just giving you some hypotheticals to chew on.
If I'm arguing multiple points...
It’s because I see the situation on multiple levels, and can make a point on any of them depending on how the conversation goes. I’ve had other people in discussions like this say that I change the subject, but to me it’s all part of the whole.
As for Jamison etc. I always looks at those ideas from the perspective of what can happen, what might happen, and what will probably happen. The Magic will probably trade Gortat eventually, but where and how are very different things. Frankly, in a deal with Washington, the TE is a more valuable commodity than a player. It’s entirely possible that the Magic will find that Gortat’s trade value turns out to be less than his FA value was. They’ll get something back for him, but what is an open question.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
ok, here's one more hypothetical for you then
maybe next offseason we’ll trade gortat, bass and a first rounder to dallas for nowitzki. then our starting 5 would be d12, dirk diggler, shard, vinsanity and jameer. we’d be like the freaking monstars — and in the process otis would’ve given donnie junior the single biggest pants’ing in the history of the nba!!
simmer down, just kidding about this one… but if it happened otis would get a 20-foot bronze statue outside the new arena, lickity split :)
laughing out loud...
so freaking hard…
you can’t even imagine…
seriously, i just pulled something…
there’s blood all over my keyboard…
someone call a doctor…
(On a serious note, that’s kinda what I mean when I say that, so long as you have Dwight Howard, flexibility isn’t really an issue. People want to play with guys like that, so emptying the owner’s wallet to build it up isn’t really all that necessary.)
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Dirk Diggler
I figured you’d appreciate that one… I didn’t mean to rupture your spleen though. Shot of tequila and you’ll be straight.
I really do disagree with your serious point though. Talented, non-core players are critical to providing maximum flexibility. Without Courtney Lee, Vince wouldn’t be here. Lack of talented, non-core players is part of why Cleveland didn’t get anything done at last year’s deadline. Next year at this time, we may say that without the Gortat signing, we couldn’t have pried Murphy/Jamison/Bosh/Stoudemire away [and we wouldn’t have won the championship].
You could just as easily be saying that Gortat is an overpaid sub on a team that lost to Cleveland in the second round...
Not saying that that’s more likely, not saying that it’s less. I’m just saying.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i'll take my chances with our embarrassment of riches...
the insane level of anger, disappointment and outrage on your message board when this news was announced speaks to the current perception of the quality of the “Asset” formerly known as the Polish Hammer.
Losing the Hammer could put you in the lottery, and cause Cuban to blow up your team by trading Nowitzki for Hammer and Bass. I ain’t saying probabilities either, I’m just saying.
Ok, I think we’re about done on this thread. Give it a final go if you’d like. It’s been fun. Seriously.
Teams that need a Center
Dallas
Denver
Detroit
Houston
Miami
Minnesota
New York
OKC
Phoenix
Sacramento
Toronto
Washington
I think the demand will be just fine for Gortat
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Here we go...
Dallas <—Can’t trade him there for at least a year.
Denver <—Nene and Birdman. Did you even watch the playoffs last year?
Detroit <—Possible, but it could get complicated. RIP is their best tradebait, and I heard something about you guys getting a 2 guard this year already.
Houston <—They won’t give you anyone you want.
Miami <—Houston, part duex.
Minnesota <-Go look at Kevin Love’s numbers and get back to me.
New York <—Still looking to shed payroll, not add it.
OKC <— Lotsa nice young talent. Won’t give you anything you want.
Phoenix <—Also looking to cut payroll.
Sacramento <—-Again, maybe. But again, anything you want, they aren’t going to give you.
Toronto <—Hedo, Bosh, and Bargani play in the front court for them.
Washington <—The Jamison thing is possible, but someone would make them a better offer for cap space.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm game
Dallas <—Can’t trade him there for at least a year.
Denver <—Nene and Birdman. Did you even watch the playoffs last year? Are either of those guys CENTERS
Detroit <—Possible, but it could get complicated. RIP is their best tradebait, and I heard something about you guys getting a 2 guard this year already.
Houston <—They won’t give you anyone you want.they will when they lose a bunch of games
Miami <—Houston, part duex.We dont want anyone from them
Minnesota <-Go look at Kevin Love’s numbers and get back to me. Again not a center
New York <—Still looking to shed payroll, not add it. Your telling me a superstar wants to go there without a real big man, I dont think so
OKC <— Lotsa nice young talent. Won’t give you anything you want. lotsa young talent that play the same position
Phoenix <—Also looking to cut payroll.they’re old Gortat is young
Sacramento <—-Again, maybe. But again, anything you want, they aren’t going to give you.Ok that’s the 3rd time you used that opinion. Its hard making up bad answers on the fly
Toronto <—Hedo, Bosh, and Bargani play in the front court for them. NONE OF THOSE GUYS ARE CENTERS
Washington <—The Jamison thing is possible, but someone would make them a better offer for cap space.Oh who is this mysterious team?? Where were they last year when Jamison was on the market?
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sigh...
You get less fun every time you post. And I had such high hopes.
“Are either of those guys CENTERS”
Both play center, both are signed long term, and both are more proven than Gortat.
“they will when they lose a bunch of games”
Houston has lots of players that Orlando would like. Tough players, signed to reasonable contracts. They also have a ton of cap space and a decent draft pick to look forward to next year, so you can’t have any.
“We dont want anyone from them”
Then why put them on the list?
“Again not a center”
Close enough not to be desperate for Gortat.
“Your telling me a superstar wants to go there without a real big man, I dont think so”
The Knicks aren’t selling themselves on talent. They’re selling themselves on being the Knicks (for whatever that’s worth)
“lotsa young talent that play the same position”
And cap room next year. They’ll hang onto them for a while yet.
“they’re old Gortat is young”
They probably would love to have him. How about Grant Hill in return?
“Ok that’s the 3rd time you used that opinion. Its hard making up bad answers on the fly”
Doesn’t make it less true. Trades need two partners, and some of these teams wouldn’t buy what you’re selling.
“NONE OF THOSE GUYS ARE CENTERS”
I thought we weren’t reusing answers? Didn’t you bitch at me for that two lines ago? Never mind. Hedo and AB are signed long term, and they’re trying to nail Bosh down. Till that changes, the point stands.
“Oh who is this mysterious team?? Where were they last year when Jamison was on the market?”
I honestly don’t remember Jamison being on the market. I thought he had just signed a long term extension, which kills the market for older players.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a market for Gortat.
He told me that 10 teams, or so, contacted him on July 1st and given that some of those teams were elite Western Conference teams, it’s pretty clear that the guy has value. I don’t think Marcin is unmovable.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Kevin Love?
22.6 PER, 23.8 Pts/48, 17.8 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, 2.6 turnovers, 1.2 assists. His opponents had a 19.5 PER
Marcin Gortat’s a 22.2 PER, with fewer points and rebounds, but more blocks, fewer turnovers, and more assists, who held his opposition to a 16.2 PER.
Basically, Love’s a better offensive center, but Gortat whups his rear end on defense.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Love was a rookie on a team without Dwight Howard...
My point is that between him and Jefferson, they’re probably not looking for big men. Might have been why they drafted three point guards.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Gortat was (effectively) a rookie who played behind Dwight Howard
Neither Love nor Jefferson can effectively guard the 5 (although Jefferson does a better job of it).
Minnesota probably won’t be looking for bigs, though – Smith is good on the defensive end (although again not a true center).
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Minnesota does not need bigs, no
Before the draft, they were 10 forwards, a point guard, and a shooting guard. No, really.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
I forgot about the trade for Thomas, Songaila, and Pecherov
Oi vey, that’s a lot of bigs.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
And not many of them are any good
Love and Jefferson are future All-Stars, and Songaila’s a solid floor-stretching specialist, albeit a horrible rebounder.
Other than that? Ew.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
Haha Eww
You could play Love and Jefferson together fine against most teams but a strong center could score easily on both imo
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
You're making good points, but...
Gortat is Chris Kaman at half the price. Only two teams publicly expressed interest in Gortat because…drumroll…he was a restricted free agent that could tie up their money before getting matched by Orlando. A lot of the teams in this list would be happy to have a half-priced Chris Kaman, even if they are cheap, because…drumroll…the MLE is very cheap for a starting top 10 center.
Personally, I’m targeting Jeff Green from OKC.
by Half-man Half-gortat on Jul 15, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe you when you say it doesn't make sense
that’s because the Dallas Mavericks spend all their money on guards and SF’s leaving Dirk the sole contributor on the frontcourt. Yes its your prerogative to play how you see fit just good luck with Dampier and Ryan Hollins as your frontcourt options
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, lemme tweet Cuban so he can run out and lose sixty games next year, then maybe we can get a Howard or a Shaq in the draft...
Honestly, try thinking about these things before you post. You’re paying $52 million for a guy who couldn’t break 20 minutes a night on a team with Erick Dampier as the starting center, and another who averaged less than fifteen on your own team.
I got freaking Shawn Marion for less than that.
(the above is tongue and cheek, for you thin skinned folks out there who aren’t following along)
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Your quite laughable i have to say
You were oh so willing to pay Gortat that same so he could replace your crappy center that you PAID like he was Shaq. Also Bass was your backup center last year but he was actually better than Dampier wasn’t he. Now Bass to gets to play with a real center and we can see what he can do
Just face it your team got owned by Otis. The good news is you still have your MLE to go after Aaron Gray
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I got freaking Shawn Marion for less than that.
Just sayin…
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Your paying a 31 year old player 8 million a year for 5 years
while were paying two guys (24,25) 11 million for 5 years. Yeah you got the better deal… sure
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
That's nice. Marion at 8 million is less valuable to the Magic than Gortat and Bass at 11 million
A guy who can’t create his own shot, has had steadily declining production since 2006, and isn’t a particularly good defender (Drew Gooden has a better PER-against than Marion).
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Why do we need to get a 30-minute player?
We trade Gortat and the trade deadline for a guy earning $3m to backup Howard, and a low first round draft pick/high second round pick.
We get a better player then we could have got in FA, and another draft pick. The alternative being letting Gortat go and getting nothing.
The NBA is a business. In business, you protect your assets.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh.......
Let’s not forget that Houston was trynna woo Gortat even before Dallas was in the picture. I bet Houston is already on the phone w/Otis to sure up a trade on December 15…They need a C in the worst way, and they gave their Injury Exception to Ariza. Now I know they have their Mid-level still, but none of the other FA centers are worth the whole thing. They will probly use it to sign a mediocre one, along with a veteran wing (as there are more options than C), and send Battier for Gortat. Then again, we have that wonderful TE, so the possibilities are endless, although I don’t think we use it til next summer. Unless, of course, Utah sends Boozer. The contracts lineup…I’m just sayin…
Nice work, pinthatd12
Otis made a somewhat risky move here— particularly for DeVos’s pocket. But it might work out. (Though I think the strategy must be to trade Gortat sometime Dec. 15, not to turn him into Troy Murphy here.)
by gift of the magi on Jul 14, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at it this way
Otis said he’d pay $5m. The offer comes in and it’s $800k more than you’re “prepared” to pay. At that point, the difference is negligible.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm inclined to believe that Otis's $5 million comment was gamesmanship...
…rather than an accurate reflection of Otis’s willingness to pay. See Hollinger’s recent piece on this point.
by gift of the magi on Jul 14, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
it remains to be seen.....
but one could only guess…….yes………i mean c’mon….really?
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles".....
Of course the Magic are better
The Magic obtained 2 great players not 1. We got even younger on our frontcourt. We upgraded our team leadership and athleticism and we got 2 contracts that can be easily moved in the future if need be.
Hedo’s 5 year 60 million $ contract is what I call a handicap contract. You can’t move it
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
And what kind of bench would we have right now with both Hedo and Vince in the fold?
I think you need to take that into consideration. Also, you have to remember that the team now has the option to either keep Gortat or ship him to another team (in 90 days) looking for a starting center and actually get something in return rather than just let him leave. Is it a financial risk to match Dallas’s offer? Sure! Does it make the team worse off for matching the offer? Emphatically NO!
Let's observe a moment of silence for CLee, Skip to my Lou, Batman, and The Michael Jordan of Turkey... *cry*
"Like I said, a sports fan can justify anything their team does."
You mean like “Meanwhile, the Mavericks still have their MLE to spend on a guy like Von Wafer”
So on a team where you have a plethora of gurads and wingmen, it’s a good thing that Orlando matched this offer so you can bring in Von Wafer instead of getting Gortat, who fills your biggest need at center?
by Lee for three on Jul 14, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
They'll trade for a center...
No one in FA is any good, which is why Dallas wanted Gortat. Dallas still has a TE of their own, and Greg Buckner’s easy buyout contract. As I mentioned on MM, Wafer was just the first name that popped into my head. I was just making the point that Dallas still has plenty of room to maneuver.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Who would they go after?
Quality centers are hard to come by…and won’t be easy to trade for since the lack up of supply will push up the price. I’d honestly be surprised if Dallas could bring in a quality center without having to give up something big.
by Lee for three on Jul 14, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
actually, he was offered more from other teams........he made the choice to come here.....
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles".....
I find that highly unlikely...
The teams with money to spend either aren’t spending it (OKC, Memphis), or are looking at other guys first (Portland). I’m almost certain that Dallas wasn’t interested in quintupling Bass’ salary, and paying luxury tax on top of it, so his agent didn’t even have that leverage to use.
One thing about this situation that interests me is that Orlando might have overpaid for Bass (my personal opinion after watching him for two years, and observing the market this offseason) because they were trying to get him signed before they matched on Gortat (remember Otis’ semi-cryptic remark about knowing what he planned to do, but needing to handle other situations first?)
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
An agents never lie, right?
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't know why you need to question it.
Brandon Bass and Matt Barnes now give Stan so much flexibility with his starting rotation we could have 3 different starting lineups changing just the 3 and 4 position. Marcin Gortat is exactly what Otis said he was an asset. We allow Stan to coach the lineup and get a feel for possible needs and if we need a player in a position more than we need gortat at his salary than we make the trade after December. That means we have a month 1/2 to find any problems with a lineup that already looks incredible. We have 3 players (Bass, Gortat, and Pietrus) that could have been starters on other teams but were behind all-star caliber players. I thank you for your concern but I think that Otis is putting together a fantastic team and maybe you should worry about your own GM
not sure there is enough shots for that lineup..
Nelson-Carter-Howard-Lewis-Turkoglu is the kind of starting five that can win a team an NBA title.
Very intersted in the new starting lineup, but I am sure by the all-star break SVG have it figured out.
"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z
Agreed
Id rather have a player a la Pietrus at the 3 who is more prepared to defend the Lebron’s/Pierces of the east than Hedo, because he really loses a lot of his value if he isnt the primary ball handler. I don’t know where this sudden “Hedo is the greatest player of all time” stuff started showing up around the media, but he was FAR from consistent. Our team is much better than we were with him and a healthy Jameer last year, because instead of being confined to our unconvential lineup we now have the option to have a banger at the 4 or a shooter, and as was mentioned earlier LA ate us up on the inside, hell Boston did too without KG.
Flexibility has been one of the key words this offseason for Otis, and by resigning Gortat we allow ourselves to watch our team for a few months and see how well we do; I’m assuming we’ll be great. And Gortat will definitely get more minutes next year, especially if we merely resigned him as a trade chip and want to showcase him for the trade deadline. I really don’t understand why people are so outraged at this, our core group of guys are either in their prime or about to enter it aside from VC, the time to be bold and go for it is now.
Shaq sucks.
Other teams just want the Magic and its fans to second guess themselves
I’m certain they see the Magic have gotten alot better this offseason. This coming right after we went to the NBA finals
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
No doubt
Boston and LA are the only teams I feel would have a chance of beating us in a 7 game series. Shaq will get torched by Dwight.
Shaq sucks.
that's only if we get Odom back
Without Odom, i don’t think LA is the favorite anymore…nevertheless, to the poster who said that other teams just want the magic and its fans to second guess themselves —that is really funny. Dude, there is no conspiracy theory going on here —some people can just DOUBT what their front office does. You seem to attack anyone and everyone who says anything bad about: Magic, Otis Smith, Gortat, Dwight Howard dog, Otis Smith’s gardner.
Lighten up. It’s not the end of the world if someone doesn’t like the decision Otis made and it’s not a grand conspiracy consisting of 25 other NBA teams and 1.7million randomly selected fans.
Let's make a list!
My personal theory is that the man has no idea what he’s doing.
He was a top candidate for executive of the year and was the biggest voice in our getting Turk, D12, and Jameer all in the same off-season.
When free agency began, Hedo Turkoglu was probably the hottest player available.
And we got an 8 mil TPE for him. When otherwise we would have gotten nothing. Man, that Otis sure doesn’t know what he is doing!
a lineup that is doubtlessly less effective than the one they could’ve had if they had simply kept Turkoglu to begin with.
Right, because depth means nothing? And how is this “doubtless”? No one would put thought into arguing the opposite? No.
at the moment he strikes me more like a dog with two bones, who refuses to leave either behind, and ends up being caught by the dogcatcher.
Who exactly will this dogcatcher be? Ownership is willing to pay, so not that. THE INJURY BUG—-Oh, wait, we have depth, so yah that can’t be it. OH right, the part where bench’s aren’t important when winning the finals…aww, crap that’s not it either.
I got it.
You mean David Stern. Duh, my bad.
Well on THAT buddy, you are a few months behind the rest of us. ;)
Why so serious?
Some of that is there for effect, some of it is personal opinion. The last bit is a well-known parable, which I feel applies to this situation. The dogcatcher bit was just trimming it down, so as not to tl;dr the post. None of it is meant to be taken as literally or as seriously as you seem to.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Depth is huge
Last year Hedo and Lewis wore down at the end of the year. We lost a bunch of games that we should have won because of this and thus lost playoff positioning. It also made the Philly series go alot longer than it probably should have.
Otis is not going to let that kind of thing happen. Lewis doesn’t have to play against bruising PF’s now that we have Bass and we got Jameer back so Hedo or Carter wont have to carry the load at the PG spot
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
All this is speculation but...
what could happen in the future is a team will arise needing a starting C. and a trade goes down involving a backup C. AND a quality backup PG. Mission accomplished. Pardon my wishful thinking.
The Surfdog
Summarize some opinions
On Turk, Gortat, and Bass
======
Your opinion:
Turk for 5 yr/ 56 mil > Ryan Anderson + Gortat, reason being that Magic Anderson + Gortat gave Magic too much front court and lost a great player.
Our opinion:
Turk might be worth 10 mil next year or 2, but not the remainder of that contract. Anderson + Gortat gave us front court, but there’s never too much as long as it doesn’t hinder our other positions from filing up.
On Gortat’s Value:
====
Your opinion:
Magic is overpaying by giving a 5 yr/ 34 mil contract to a 10-min backup
Our opinion:
There are possible scenarios that can justify this spending:
- Someone at 4/5 gets hurt, then depth helped
- He is traded comes Dec 15
- He plays hard and gets more time at 4
On Lineups:
====
Your opinion:
Lots of people at the same position causes confusion.
Also, “Nelson-Carter-Howard-Lewis-Turkoglu is the kind of starting five that can win a team an NBA title.”
Our opinion:
People at same position gives depth. Confusion arises from weak coaching and team management, not from having too many players.
A great starting five with a lack of depth is not a team that can win an NBA title.
by CityShrimp on Jul 14, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hooray, mobile posting now!
But anyway, Otis has been great this offseason, instead of having Hedo and fielding a weak bench we have VC and an extremely talented bench. Ill take that anyday
Shaq sucks.
by Paul Finger on Jul 14, 2009 3:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
It's no surprise
That Mavs fans will try to talk themselves around on this one. Bottom line is, they were emotionally attached to the idea of having Gortat and they saw one guy take that away from them. So, obviously that guy must be a moron.
The brain doesn’t like a dissonance between what we feel and what we think, so most people try to rationalise their emotions into an intellectual argument. Hence, “I hate Otis for taking away Gortat” = “Otis must be an idiot and not know what he’s doing”.
Anyone who isn’t emotionally invested in the argument can see the flaw, though.
Look at this thread and tell me Magic fans aren't emotionally invested...
The one on Mavs Moneyball has 11 replies, I think.
I think if you put two of my best seasons together it wouldn't come up with the numbers he's going to have at the end of the season. -Troy Aikman on Tony Romo
by Big D Bam Bam on Jul 14, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
No, you're right
We’re every bit as emotionally invested in this as you are.
But I’m yet to read any commentators criticise this move or Otis. Indeed, Otis is getting plenty of praise from the writers I read regularly for his moves this offseason.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
ofc we are, we know Magic are winners. Hence 11 on ur end, hence all this talk beforehand sayin no way Magic match, and hence u still have to do it now to justify the ur outcome. this post has nothing to do w/ mavs, so get used to being proven wrong when it comes to the magic until ur debate is sound enough to withstand better refutes. Mavs forum is where u know the best, we know the Magic best here.
A couple of reasons this thread is active as well...
1) Our team just made a deep run into the playoffs while your team was eliminated in the first round. Fact, not a cheap shot
2) Our team has been pretty active on the FA market this season, even though there has only been the one signing, and a offer match.
Hedo leaving, the Carter trade, the Bass signing, the offer match for Gortat, the local summer league, the upcoming arena, the recent playoff run and there’s bound to be a lot activity on this board compared to a team that really hasn’t done much since being ousted from the playoffs in May.
Let's observe a moment of silence for CLee, Skip to my Lou, Batman, and The Michael Jordan of Turkey... *cry*
A third reason
Insulting the ability of Orlando’s GM on a Mavs board is never going to generate the same kind of traffic that doing the same thing here will.
I suspect if I call Danny Ainge a twit here, it’ll be pretty dull, but if I go rip him on a Celtics blog I’d expect it to be a bit more controversial.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd be more interesting in the reaction if you criticized Cuban on the Mavs board
I don’t know if you’d get more disagreement or agreement.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
1st round, 2nd round, same difference in the context of the argument for the most part.
Still, the team hasn’t played a game since May 13th and while they actually participated in the draft, none of their picks were talked about much in the national media.
Let's observe a moment of silence for CLee, Skip to my Lou, Batman, and The Michael Jordan of Turkey...
Welcome Back Polish Hammer and Welcome Brandon Bass!!
Wow this Mavs fan doesnt have a clue
" a lineup that is doubtlessly less effective than the one they could’ve had if they had simply kept Turkoglu to begin with."
The Magic are UNDOUBTEDLY a better team now, and it’s not hard to understand
First and foremost, the Magic offered Turk 9 mil per year which wouldve been 18 mil total per year. So going into the luxury tax wasnt the issue. Paying Turkoglu more than he deserved was the issue. We wouldve NO DOUBT continued being a team with several GLARING weaknesses if we overpaid for Turkoglu
I dont just say this because Im a homer, this has been a hot topic amongst Magic fans since WELL before free agency started. Most Magic fans have been discussing this, almost all in agreeance, since the beginning of the season if not earlier. The thought was, this team needs to get rid of Turk and find a PF who can rebound and defend. We also lacked an iso threat, and were forced into a pick and roll offense that relied on too many things to go right
The EXACT thing we needed to do was let Turkoglu walk, move Lewis to SF, sigin a PF and hopefully (nobody expected it) bring in an iso threat.
This team has NO more needs going forward. The offseason couldnt have gone better, and the fact that paying Turkoglu, Alston, Lee and Battie wouldve = Carter, Bass, and Anderson means absolutely nothing when you figure out that the team is undoubtedly more balanced and well equiped to face anybody in the NBA
Our starting lineup is better with Turk
But that’s possible a two season deal, and we’d be paying him for at least four because absolutely nobody is going to want a piece of that contract when he’s 33.
Our depth is much, much better with Bass and Gortat, though. If we’d signed Hedo and let Gortat walk, and not pursued Bass, we’d still be needing a tough power forward and be looking at washouts and scrubs to backup Dwight on the FA market – and we’d have almost no flexibility going forward and little in the way of tradeable assets.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Carter + Gortat + Bass + Anderson > Turkoglu + Lee + Battie
and I dont really see a valid argument that says otherwise
Would our CURRENT team be better with the addition of Turkoglu? Of course, but thats not the question. It is one or the other, and clearly this team is better now
If we resigned Turk, our lineup is
PG: Nelson, AJ
SG: Carter, JJ
SF: Hedo, Pietrus
PF: Lewis, Anderson
C: Dwight, ???
As opposed to either
PG: Nelson, AJ
SG: Carter, JJ
SF: Pietrus, ??
PF: Lewis, Bass/Anderson
C: Dwight, Gortat/Bass
OR
PG: Nelson, AJ
SG: Carter, JJ/Pietrus
SF: Lewis, Pietrus
PF: Bass/Anderson, Anderson/Bass
C: Dwight, Gortat, Bass
Sure, maybe that first starting lineup is better….but now we have an incredibly young frontcourt…tons of flexibility (Lewis back to the three, Pietrus at the 2 or 3, go tough with Dwight and Bass, slide Anderson into the PF for shooting, etc). I don’t see how we came out on the losing end of this at all. The only issue with it is the money…but as fans its not our money and Otis had the green light to spend, so it’s not that big of a deal.
by Lee for three on Jul 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not saying we did
But Hedo would undoubtedly have improved our starting lineup in the short term.
I’d personally take the depth and flexibility any day, and I think re-signing Hedo would have led to the same situation the Malone Lakers found themselves in – a bench so awful no amount of star power could remedy it.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I wasn't directing that towards you...
I was just saying in general our starting lineup takes a bit of a hit now, but we solidified our bench and have a ton of young talent to buuild around for the future. In fact I pretty much agree w/everthing you said, I was just mapping out the differences in our rotation.
by Lee for three on Jul 14, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
we needed someone better suited to play PF, and an ISO threat - those were our 2 remaining needs
and maybe a younger, better backup PG. But that isnt an immediate need considering how solid AJ is off the bench right now
The truth is, we needed a different PF and the only way to do that was to get rid of Turkoglu or let him or Lewis come off the bench. Thats the only way our team would take another step forward. the fact that we got our iso threat as well makes the loss of Turkoglu nearly a non-issue
btw Mavs fan I wasnt trying to insult you
You just clearly dont know the Magic as well as Magic fans. Your original post was well thought out and fairly reasonable for a fan on the outside without a lot of knowledge of this team.
I probably know as little about the Mavs and how that team works and what they need, as you do about the Magic. SO I wasnt trying to insult you if thats how you took it
Don't apologize
Yesterday I was doing the same thing this guy was doing on the Mavs board. All the while getting cursed at and told to go F’ing die. He is not doing anything wrong either. He’s not personally insulting and were not insulting him (yet lol)
Saying that his team made a stupid move isn’t insulting. I’m fine with him being here and stating his opinions. I just disagree completely with him.
Hopefully he won’t get banned from our site like I was from his. He is technically trolling like I was but he’s doing it for entertainment not spite
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
.. he's not trolling. The individual has been engaging in discussion, which is welcome here.
People can agree to disagree, as long as its done with class and respect. No harm, no foul.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
evaluating an asset
Who sets the bar for th 5 spot in the league? no wait…..let me guess D12?
who better to have on your team than the person who faced this guy the most? and with strikingly close stats, someone will be happy to give up a Tay,or a Shane to get him,should Otis be so geneorus.
exactly
Gortat will be moved, and the team will be even better at that point. But even if Gortat isnt moved, he is still well worth his deal IMO
I love how fans want to act now like a legit starting center isnt worth 6 mil, on any team. What are there maybe 10 legit starting centers that are worth a damn, and we have 2 of them?
I wouldn't count it quite that low...
Howard, Duncan, Jefferson, Yao (if he recovers), Shaq, P. Gasol, Nene, Ilgauskas, Lopez, Okur, Horford, Miller, Gortat…OK, I could only come up with 13, but yeah, we’ve got 2 starter-quality centers.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
A beast ;)
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Duncan will get really pissed off if you call him a Center.
by Lee for three on Jul 14, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Something tells me he'll be okay with being listed as one on the All-Star ballot this year
What with Yao injured and all.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
And Shaq in the Eastern Conference
Really, those were the only legit Centers in the West last year!
Let's observe a moment of silence for CLee, Skip to my Lou, Batman, and The Michael Jordan of Turkey...
Welcome Back Polish Hammer and Welcome Brandon Bass!!
I dont think all of those guys are true centers
Some of them are PFs who only play center because the lack of true centers in the league has made it so that some teams choose not to use one.
Is Jefferson truly a center? maybe Ill give you that one. Gasol? No. Ilgauskus and Shaq are only part time players anymore. Okur? Maybe. Duncan? I guess he is a legit center, but would that be his position if San Antonio was able to find an adequate replacement for David Robinson the last decade?
eitehr way, I think we both see theres not many true centers and Gortat at 6 mil is great value. I told Mavs fans that when they signe dhim, and I dont think its changed regardless if hes not “starting”
Is it just me
I dont think Duncan, Jefferson, Nene, Okur are centers. I’m on the fence with Horford being called a center as well. Even at Florida he wasn’t the center Noah was
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree on Duncan
But the others all played C for pretty much all this year.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
playing C, and being a C are 2 completely different things
there are a ton of teams who play PFs at center now
Then maybe you need to adjust your expectation of what a C is
The game’s changing all the time. If people are playing center, they’re centers.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Centers are guys that play with their back to the basket 70 % of the time
Guys like Duncan, Jefferson, Nene, and Okur all play facing the basket most of the time. With the exception of Duncan who is about 50/50 post up and face up.
Horford’s only problem at center is his size but other than that he has traditional center skills
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
But why only pick one type of center?
It’s like saying Jameer isn’t a point guard because he doesn’t pass first.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
The Jameer analogy is a good point
But I think it might help prove my argument
pass first PGs are typically more sought after than scoring PGs
Would you rather have Kidd or Francis?
Tony Parker or Jose Calderon
or Hinrich or Rose… They are all point guards not shooting guards. I’m classifing those guys as PF’s not centers. Two completely different positions
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Kidd
But that’s because Francis is awful.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would I change my expectation of centers?
there are still CLEARLY centers and PFs who play center, and its not hard to differentiate between the 2 so what purpose would i tserve to lump them all ogether?
Gortat isnt a PF who plays center. Hes a center, and I think its important to point out that the league is lacking true centers because they are still a highly sought after commodity
They are
But that doesn’t mean everyone wants one. Golden State don’t have a true center and they’re not going to want any piece of Gortat as long as they play their current style.
Old fashioned centers are a sought after commodity – but so are hybrid centers and centers who can stretch the floor. If you only think about true centers, yes, there aren’t that many…but that’s irrelevant because a lot of teams don’t use them or want them.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
"hybrid" centers are a dime a dozen
true centers are far more impactful to a team. Just look at Chris Bosh v Dwight HOward. Bosh is a phenomenol player, but his impact to his team cant be felt as strongly as Howards. And i Think that is they key to this argument
The only reason teams dont use true centers, is because they cant find good ones. Its definnitely not because they dont want them. When you have to choose between Jermaine O Neal and Greg Foster at center, than you probably will find that your lineup is more effective with Foster on the bench
btw GS does have a true quality, starting caliber center. Andres Biedrins. Too bad for him he’s been playing in one of the only systems that truly doesnt need a real center
Bosh is playing with rubbish though
Give him Lewis, Nelson and Carter and the Raptors would be in the playoffs.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
true
but a true center is till going to have a far bigger impact than a hybrid center.
Or to say it differently, Bosh is going to have a much larger impact at PF than at C, assuming Toronto had a true center who was worth a damn
Uhm Biedrins is a true center when healthy
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
And they essentially play around him because he doesn’t fit their style.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is very dumb cause he has alot of talent around the rim
I like Beidrins he can run like a horse. He’s very strong and long. Plus he actually plays resonably good D. If he had a good coach he could be great
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea Golden State is the exception not the rule
every other team who chooses not to play a crappy center over a solid PF, does it because they have no suitabgle options. Nelson’s system is just a different animal
But you are right in that Gortat has no value to GS. But he does for every other team, so Id say even without GS in the picture Gortat holds a ton of value
you are talking about Don Nelsons system though
Biedrins would be much more impactful on a team who cared about playing defense or did anything but chuck up 3s.
SVG and D’Antonis systems are somewhat similar (although no one does what Nelson does), but you can see how much of a difference it makes having and utilizing a true center in Orlando as opposed to GS. Remove Howard from teh equation because he will undoubtedly make Orlando better than GS no matter what the system is, but even if you pretended that Howard wsnt here and Gortat was our only center, you would still see a large difference between Orlando and GS
lol thats what I was thinking
I dont think Shaq is an effective center anymore, atleast not in a large role
Now for a center he is very effective
he’s lost a step or two but he still can punish anyone smaller than him. He’s a true center
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
you are right, Shaq is a true center
I just see him as a guy who gets 1 block per game, maybe plays 25 minutes per game until some injury pops up, and while he is a true center he is a part time player who is running on E. Same could be said for Ilgauskus
You're a bit out of touch, then
Shaq outscored everyone but Yao and Dwight from the C position last season, and was top ten in rebounds for centers. He’s not the blocking force he was, but still chips in with 2.3/48 minutes which is respectable.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
and he did it playing for the Suns
Im pretty sure thatas a team they fire off a ton of shots, I could be wrong though.
I dont want to call Shaq Eddy Curry, but Curry was capable of putting up big points and a couple less rebounds but it didnt automatically make him a fully capable center
I think IM splitting hairs here with you, Shaq is a true cente rbut I dont think Im out of touch
Were spoiled with Dwight
cause he puts up massive pts and rebounds. just cause Shaq doesn’t pull those #‘s doesn’t mean he’s not effective
by Souwantmyname on Jul 14, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Shaq can still play
He’s not a completely dominant force any more, but anyone capable of putting up 18 points and 8.5 board a game is a competant center.
by eltharion_doa on Jul 14, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
true
but where do you factor in his downside? Like how he cant get up and down the court that well, struggles mightily with the pick and roll, cant play starter minutes, commits fouls at a higehr rate because he cant defend as well anymore, and is on his way out the door
You are right though, Shaq and Ilgauskus are true centers as long as they remain in the game but even still that leaves you at about 10 or 11 true centers
What about Rodman? He guarded Shaq back in the day. :p
"Fun fact: Larry Hughes, who couldn’t stay healthy if all his human parts were replaced with bionic implants, is out for the next four weeks with a bruised leg. Do you think that Willis Reed ever reads about all these players missing time with bruises and sprained fingers and throws up in his mouth a little?"
with the shortage of biggs im supprized Otis has’nt dealt Pat Ewing
whats up Ryan? ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! oooooppppssssss!
Yeah, trade Ewing for zombie Wilt Chamberlain.
"Fun fact: Larry Hughes, who couldn’t stay healthy if all his human parts were replaced with bionic implants, is out for the next four weeks with a bruised leg. Do you think that Willis Reed ever reads about all these players missing time with bruises and sprained fingers and throws up in his mouth a little?"
by Diosnomeama on Jul 14, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
LMAO.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Im not familliar with SBNation, or blog sites in general
can anyone tell me why everytime I sign in I have to go dig up my “confirmation email” and click the link inside to sign in? If I just try to some here and sign in it tells me that Im not signed up and that I need to register.
I have no idea. When my internet acts up, I just hit my computer with something heavy.
"Fun fact: Larry Hughes, who couldn’t stay healthy if all his human parts were replaced with bionic implants, is out for the next four weeks with a bruised leg. Do you think that Willis Reed ever reads about all these players missing time with bruises and sprained fingers and throws up in his mouth a little?"
Not sure, bud.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Now that the Lakers have withdrawn the offer they have on the table for Lamar Odom...
I know signing or acquiring Odom is pretty much impossible. But, let’s have some fun and ponder how Lamar would fit on the Magic roster/rotation. Though this is completely for purposes of discussion, I’d love for the Magic to stick it to the Lakers like that. On a realistic note, I hope Cuban follows through on his comments to try and acquire Odom. You all know that its curtains on that team if he leaves…
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
Miami Heat and Odom
Actually, this is a very realalistic thought to ponder. The Magic’s chances of winning the Southeast could become challenging. There is a deal on the table for the Heat to acquire Boozer, with Boozer saying this morning that a trade has been set with someone to take him on next year. The Heat are also in talks with Odom. A Heat team with Odom, Boozer, and Wade (fortunately, Haslem would be shipped to Utah in the Boozer deal) could become problematic for the Magic. How you guys like them apples??
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
Chemistry trumps talent when both teams are good.
Odom, Boozer and Wade is like a whole new core. Sounds like starting over to me.
Life's too short. Be a fan. Magic, Cards and Rays! What a winning combo.
We might actually have to pay attention to the Heat then when we play them
there is just 1 problem Jermaine O’neal is sitting on their team just eating payroll
by Souwantmyname on Jul 15, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I completely forgot he played for them (shows you how irrelevant he's become).
Eating payroll or not, he’s a big that makes them immediately taller than the Magic.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
Adding Odom to the Heat wouldn't make them a threat to the Magic ..
.. as great as Dwyane Wade is.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
exactly
Odom as the 2nd option is no bueno.. He needs to be forgotten about to be good..
"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z
Sort of.
I was referring more to the lack of quality depth for the Heat.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Hey...
For all we know, Boozer could be talking about Otis…LOL…nothing surprises me about this guy! And I think he operates like a mob boss or something, daring all parties to say something or he’ll break their knee caps or something… Otis Smith a.k.a. DON CORLEONE…LOL
Nah, not this time.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Now Yahoo's writing about it...
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
Wade, Boozer, Odom, O'Neal is a real possibility and would give the Magic a run for their money.
For those of you that think DWade is the best player in the NBA, look at what LBJ did with the guys around him. This doesn’t mean that the Heat are contenders but it does mean they can win big in the regular season and can light up the first two rounds of the playoffs like Cleveland did this year. Personally, its a tossup for me between Wade and LBJ as to who is the best player in the league. Wade is scary good and the fact he has been left to rot in Miami is the only thing that has put him behind LBJ and Kobe in those discussions. Think Beijing…
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
Tossup between James and Wade?
Statistically, they’re similar but it’s still LeBron.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I don't know man...
LeBron is unbelievable but Wade is super talented and has something special. Wade also has a title. And even though titles don’t always mean everything, his performance in those Finals was simply great. Wade also has had to work for his reputation whereas LeBron was simply crowned from Day 1 and we have yet to see him really overcome adversity in a playoff series (maybe that Detroit series in 2005 is the closest we’ve seen). What I saw in the East Finals was something unbelievable and that was LeBron’s performances game in and game out. But what I saw in Beijing was DWade at his best. He was that team’s best player, no doubt. Wade’s issue is the market he plays in, his team mates are more concerned with South Beach and being celebrities than basketball. That is and will always be the city of Miami’s problem. Especially with today’s NBA player, Miami is just a bad place for a player to focus on winning. I’ve lived in Miami and have seen the debauchery first hand, these athletes see Miami as a playground. (side note: a team in Las Vegas would have the exact same problem) The only way the Heat win will be by surrounding Wade with veterans that care more about winning than anything else…that was the case in 2006 and will be the case going forward. It takes a lot of maturity to play in that town. Which is why surrounding Wade with Boozer and Odom could be a blessing in diguise for Heat fans (if there is such a thing) and Mr. D.Wade.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
You say "Wade is super talented and has something special" like the same statement doesn't apply to LeBron
LeBron can play 4 positions (on both sides of the ball) and is more durable. No one’s disputing that Wade’s one of the game’s best players, but there’s no way he’s better than LeBron, who is far and away the best.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
hmmmm
At this point, I think Wade is the best. Thats my opinion. We’ll see in a couple of years or when their careers are over. LeBron may very well be the better one then. I just think Wade has two things going against him as to why he isn’t the general consensus best as LeBron has become: 1) the post championship shoulder injury 2) the fact he’s sponsored by Converse. Right now of all the shoe company Nike and Adidas are in a league of their own…Nike might even be in a different universe. Converse can never go head to head with Nike to promote Wade over James. Thats a fact based on sheer revenue. And while the T-Mobile ads are cute and all, the life blood of a basketball player’s image is the shoe deal. Right now Wade comes in fourth in that dept as Converse sits behind Nike, Adidas, and Rbk. In the end, endorsers are the ones that really drive these MVP, “best player in the world” debates and we all know that stuff is chatter. These two players are ultimately judged in time. Right now…talent wise, these guys are the same.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
LeBron > Dwyane.
I don’t need to say more.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
LeBron is the better player
but Wade certainly looks like the MVP whenever he plays the Magic
by Souwantmyname on Jul 16, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That means nothing.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
not sure why the argument over the two players....
but the term “better” is really subjective…… obviously lebron james is an amazingly gifted athelete and he is undoubtedly has the most talen in the nba right now…..but is really a “better player” than some of the other elite ballers in the nba……
i know it’s still early in his career and he has won rookie of the year, a scoring title and the mvp………..but those are only titles, not a game of entitlement…… i think dwade(mvp) has an argument with his championship title and finals mvp…… now, coincidentally lebron will have his turn with shaq as did kobe(mvp), as did nash(2xmvp), as did penny
………….if lebron comes up short…….i dunno……. best player???? ….that’s a tough one right now…..
hopefully next year we can add dwights name to this argument…..
so far….dunk champion…..led the league in blocks and rebounds…plus defensive player of the year and an appearance in the finals…..he’s creepin’ into the conversation………….
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
It's not subjective.
If you really want me to break things down, LeBron is the best player in the NBA and there is no disputing that fact.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
so there??......
remember those little kids in school that would end debates with statements like: “ask my mom!”, or call “infinity”……or remember when parents would run out of answers so they would say “because i said so”…….sorry e but that is how i felt when i read your reply…..
i didnt mean to strike a cord with you and im not trying to encite you now either…..i was simply playing devils advocate……..
in sales…people say “your only as good as your last sale”, they also say “what have you done for me lately”……..the same line of thinking disregards numbers and simply asks the question: do you have a ring? ……….the answer thus far is no……… why is jordan considered the best basketball player ever? which one of these achievments do you think people would use to defend his greatness as a player? if your not sure…i have highlighted it….
* 2 Olympic Gold Medals – 1984, 1992
6-time NBA Champion
6-time NBA Finals MVP
* 5-time NBA MVP
* 7-time The Sporting News MVP
* 10 NBA Scoring Titles
* 14 NBA All-Star Selections
* 3-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
* 11 All-NBA Selections
* 9 All-Defensive Selections
* 2-time NBA Slam Dunk Contest Champion – 1987, 1988
* NBA Rookie of the Year – 1984
* NBA Defensive Player of the Year – 1988
* ACC Freshman of the Year – 1982
* ACC Men’s Basketball Player of the Year – 1984
* USBWA College Player of the Year – 1984
* Naismith College Player of the Year – 1984
* John R. Wooden Award – 1984
* Adolph Rupp Trophy – 1984
* Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year – 1991
* Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History in 1996
* Ranked #1 by SLAM Magazine’s Top 50 Players of All-Time
* Ranked #1 by ESPN Sportscentury’s Top 100 Athletes of the 20th century
i dare you to disagree……again i love this site and i am not try to pick a fight…..its the off-season…im bored just like you and i enjoy engaging in spirited discussion…..all in good fun….. you have the floor my friend……
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
Who brought up Michael Jordan?
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
tangent...........
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
Where did I bring up M.J.'s name?
LeBron is the best player in the NBA, right now. I’m not talking about who the G.O.A.T. is.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
i was using him as an example to show how most people gauge greatness....
jordans greatness is measured primarily by his championships…..bill russel also…..and the rest…..
your argument is for lebron…..im saying a lot of people may disagree because he hasnt even made it to the big show…….let alone won it
i am a long time miami dolphins fan…..of course i think dan marino is the greatest quarterback of all time……but i cant back it up because he doesnt have a ring….. so my argument becomes: he was the greatest “passer” of all time……
would time duncan be considered arguably the best power forward ever if he wasnt an nba champion…….
talent is one thing…….results are another……….
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
dwade and kobe....both champions
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
I have to disagree
Simply because of this:when you mention MJ,my first thought isn’t rings,it’s his PLAY. So,he would be THE ONE even without his rings. Sure,‘ships come in handy,but if LBJ doesn’t win any,he’ll still be better than DW. Yep,he didn’t made it to the big stage,but he can’t make it all alone. Yet,he made a pretty good shot at it,as we all witnessed (LOL)
He's 24. He has time.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
indeed he does.......
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
winning championships is important, but let's not get carried away
it is not the only factor in determining someone’s greatness. will derek fisher (6 championships) be remembered as a better point guard than john stockton (0)? horace grant (4) a better PF than malone (0) or barkley (0)? cartwright (3) a better C than ewing (0)? of course not. basing an argument on championship differential (especially when we are talking about young players and a 1-championship differential) is extremely overly simplistic. wyatt, come on, you know better than that. surely you’re still playing devil’s advocate.
I absolutely dispute that "fact"
The reason may be the coach in Cleveland. Everyone knows I don’t like SVG, but i’d much rather give him the coach of the year over Mike Brown. I’m not sure whether it is the coach in Cleveland or Lebron, but there is no doubt that the other players on the team play WORSE in Cleveland than they would elsewhere.
To me a great player makes all others around them all look like all-stars. Obviously i’m biased because Kobe is my favorite player of all time, so it’s hard for me to argue in his favor (i can’t see the facts clearly when i’m talking about Kobe, hence biased). But to me Kobe makes all the players around him 10x better. Look at Trevor Ariza. This guy sat at the END of your bench, a player who if you had to judge at the time he was with your team, may be out of the league in a couple years. On the lakers he looked like an absolute ALL-STAR. In fact, without you guys giving us Ariza for Cook (thank you), i dont know if we would have won. REmember game 4 when we were down double digits and Ariza scored 13 coming out of the third period, and the lakers go from deficit to lead. Next look at Lamar Odom. This guy looked like an absolute all-star in the finals/playoffs and the regular season. LAmar is one of those high-potential, but never that good players. He has NEVER made it to the all-star game. But on the court, i swear i thought he was better than Hedo/Rashard.
Compare this with Lebron. He has other ALL-STARS on his team. Z has played in a few all-star games, Mo Williams made it this year. D West, Wally, Pavlovich, et al, these guys have talent! Yet when they step on the floor with Lebron, they do not get better. In fact, they get WORSE.
I mean the Cavs were running an offense where 4 players stand in the corners and Lebron just plays 1 on 5. No wonder the other players lose confidence and cannot get in rhythm. No wonder they look like SCRUBS out there.
Remember that the Cavs won 66 regular season games. You cannot do that unless you have a well rounded and excellent team. Yet against you guys they looked like Scrubs. Why? Lebron dribbles the ball around for 20 seconds and then finally finds a lane to drive and get a score/foul. This isn’t an offense! No wonder he makes the other players WORSE.
Kobe on the other hand sets up everyone. How many wide open 3 pointers did Ariza get because of Kobe? What about Fisher/Odom/Walton/Brown/et al? I don’t mention Pau because he doesn’t need Kobe. But the others were undoubtedly much better because Kobe was on the floor. Can you say the same with the Cavs and Lebron?
i didn't read this whole post but........
according to your logic……
To me a great player makes all others around them all look like all-stars.the magic had 3 all stars this year……so that makes dwight a really great player….right?
Kobe on the other hand sets up everyone. How many wide open 3 pointers did Ariza get because of Kobe?
Kobe is partly a product of the triangle offense….the same one jordan had………
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
Kobe has made absolutely no one else better around him.
Ariza is an anomaly, he fit well in that system. Odom was already good, so was Gasol, and Fisher can do well for himself on other teams (as he proved in Utah). You are then left with guys that are highly ineffective and at times liabilities for that team (Vujacic, Walton, to name a few). If the Lakers hadn’t caught so many breaks over the past season(s), it would still be undisputed that the reason they don’t win is because Kobe doesn’t make anyone better. Now that they won, Kobe fans can somehow make that argument as plyka just did. Making those around him better has always been Kobe’s problem and will continue to be his problem. News flash to the world, LA is not winning again this year with or without Odom. Kobe is a selfish player who, even though he has improved in recent years in the team mate department, still doesn’t grasp team basketball because he doesn’t trust anyone.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
Shoe endorsements have no bearing on who the better player is
LeBron is the better player whether he wears Nike or Sketchers.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
by Evan Dunlap on Jul 16, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Wade moves to Nike.
As if he read my post or something…but Nike announced today:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/nationworld/sns-ap-bkn-wade-jordan-brand,0,7665883.story
Do you really think I believe a brand of shoe makes a player better? Come on. My point which was obviously completely missed was that right now LeBron and DWade skillwise are pretty much a wash. Wade has a title and LeBron has an MVP. In my opinion, the title is a bigger accomplishment…especially how valuable DWade was to getting that title. Why I mentioned shoe deals is because LeBron’s legend has gotten so much bigger than DWade’s because he has the Nike machine behind him bombarding our brains with the fact he is this larger than life basketball player. Wade on the other hand, didn’t have that luxury with Converse and was also not able to fully capitalize on the whole NBA champion thing cause he got hurt immediately afterwards and kind of took a backseat. Wade’s move to Nike signals the fact that getting third place in this year’s MVP race, when it was clear he should of been MVP or at least a clear cut second, is unacceptable. Don’t think for a second that Nike had nothing to do with influencing that 1-2 finish by LeBron and Kobe. And so I don’t get misinterpretated again…NIKE AND THE NBA DID NOT FIX THE MVP AWARD…Nike simply creates this big buzz between LeBron and Kobe at the end of the season (ideal timing) and a by-product is that it slightly influences some voters. A 1-2 finish was perfect for them because it further set up the ad campaign during the playoffs which was supposed to be a prelude to the dream Finals that would once and for all settle the debate of the best player in the league (which we had been forced to accept as LeBron vs. Kobe)…oops Dwight and the Magic ruined that for them didn’t they. Lol.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
wade/lebron
jafi — you make good points. well argued. and i agree with you that wade was the best player in beijing. the format there was perfect for wade’s high-energy, super-fast, gambling-defense approach. and he was utterly fantastic. what did he shoot over there, like 68% or somethign absurd? he was phenom.
but overall i have to agree with the lebron supporters here. i don’t think lebron is head and shoulders above wade, but i think he is clearly above wade (and kobe and everyone else). and i also think that if you say to the 30 nba GMs: ok, you need to win the championship this year, we are going to draft players for each team, and you have the first pick… who do you take? All 30 of them (or at least 27 of them) would say LeBron James. And for most of them it wouldn’t take more than 1.3 seconds to say it.
I’d obviously also love to see Dwight pull himself into that conversation over the next year or 2. right now, i’d go:
1. LeBron
2. DWade
3. Kobe (2 years ago he was my #1, but I think he has started to slip)
4. Howard
5. CPaul
The correct order, at least by the metrics is ..
James, Wade and/or Paul, Howard, Bryant.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
I think if you're building a franchise from the ground up...
And the best Center in the league is also top 3 or 4 overall, the GM w/the first pick would pick Dwight. Guaranteed. You have many more options at wing players and pt guards, but he is far away the best all-around center.
Phil Jackson would agree.
He said he’d pick Dwight.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
this is a non-issue
if any of you arguing that there is any dispute about who more than 95% of nba executives (chris wallace excluded) would take if they were starting a team from scratch then you seriously need to work on your subjectivity. dwight is my favorite player in the league, of course. but come on, these types of arguments would be laughed off any other team’s board. it’s lebron, and it’s nobody else. if you want to talk about who is #2, i think we could have a legitimate, lively debate.
I'd pick LeBron, for what it's worth.
.. but I know some executives value (the old school mentality) having a dominant center to build around.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Lol. Tall dudes...
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love...get it on Twitter : KingJafi29.
by KingJafi on Jul 15, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Classic.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Rec'd
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
It's funny howe they both are looking to see if he makes it...
Instead of looking at the guy who has nuts in his face…LOL
Le dunk de la mort!
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
I would just quit my basketball career if that happend to me
there’s no recovering from that
by Souwantmyname on Jul 15, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Orlando,Orlando!!
You can bet gortat will be a valuable trade chip I honestly see Bosh coming to orlando this season or next, I also see we’re trying to see what’s what with nate robinson, but hey at least we got something in return for turkoglu.
Jameer isn't a pass-first guy but I see what your saying
by Souwantmyname on Jul 16, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
My point was, just to clarify,
Jameer is more of a scoring guard, so we need a guy that can change pace, and/or place along side of Jameer, i.e. a pass-first guy.
Hate to break it to you, but I'm more than happy to do so.
The Magic aren’t talking to Nate Robinson.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
Thank God...
He and Dwight look good in an exhibition, but would NOT work in a real game!!
...he is kryptonate after all...........
Just one man's opinion...
....."running mac games as if your name was Scott Skiles"....
hold on....
You said the starting line-up is “doubtlessly less effective”(speaking without Hedo),but you went on to say,“the Magic are in a far better situation than they were when last season ended”.
Im sorry,but that doesnt make ANY sense.If you think(exclaimation mark on YOU) our starting line-up is “doubtlessly less effective”,how in the hell are we in a better situation?
Also,you just made a point for letting Hedo go.You stated the contract of Bass(4/$18M) and Marcin(5/$34M) are identical to Hedos in Toronto……Why in the hell would we pay a huge load of money for one player(30 years old),when we can get two younger,developing players,and possibly a huge trade in the works(behind scenes,of course)…..
by DoYouBelieveInMagic92 on Jul 20, 2009 12:26 AM EDT reply actions
The issues have already been addressed.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone
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