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Considering Context in Otis Smith's Prior Words and Vince Carter's Prior Actions

Orlando Magic GM Otis Smith certainly has a way with words. He's not the type of guy who tries to speak in sound-bites, but almost everything he says winds up quoted somewhere, because it just sounds good. Indiana Pacers executive Larry Bird is the same way.

He's also famous for obfuscation, as many other GMs and basketball executives are. Just a few days before sending the expiring deals of Rafer Alston and Tony Battie, along with talented rookie Courtney Lee, to the New Jersey Nets for Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson, he downplayed the value of expiring contracts in today's trading market. Kyle Hightower of the Orlando Sentinel has the paraphrase (and if anyone can find the actual quote, please pass it along):

Smith contends that the expiring contracts of players [...] aren't as valuable as they would have been in previous years, though.

And some comments he made a few years ago about Carter have circulated around the internet, as the internet enables such things to do. Dave D'Alessandro of The Star Ledger refreshed everyone's memory last night. Here's Smith, in 2007, explaining why he didn't acquire Carter when he could have had him for Hedo Turkoglu, Darko Milicic, and J.J. Redick:

"I'm not going to take a step back and fall for what I call fool's gold," Smith said then. "It shines and it glitters, but it just doesn't stick or pass the test."

In response to that quote, Andrea Adelson of the Orlando Sentinel wrote this column panning Thursday's deal. Her sentiments seem to echo those of many Magic fans, who haven't yet come around on the trade. Here's an excerpt from Adelson on which I'd like to focus:

So if Carter was fool's gold then, has he somehow polished himself up and turned into solid gold now despite two more years of wear and tear on his body?

NBA pundits have praised the Magic for going all in with the blockbuster deal Thursday because it proves how serious they are about winning a title. But it was just two weeks ago the Magic were actually playing for said championship.

This squad was not the Knicks. They were not the Clippers. The last two weeks may have felt interminable, but the Magic did finish second in the entire league, right?

Yet management felt the need to nuke the roster in its attempt to win now. So it got rid of a promising player in Courtney Lee and help for Dwight Howard in Tony Battie, all for an aging former all-star who has a history of injuries.

These are valid points. Two years ago, Carter was "fool's gold." Now the Magic have dumped 40% of their starting lineup in the NBA Finals for him and Anderson, a number which will increase to 60% once Hedo Turkoglu departs, as is more-or-less inevitable.

But there's something missing here. Let's remember context. At the 2007 trading deadline, the Magic's record stood at 27-28. Acquiring Carter for Turkoglu, a solid starter at small forward, although not nearly the player he became under Stan Van Gundy the following season; Milicic, the prize of the 2006 deadline and a free-agent-to-be whom they hoped to re-sign; and Redick, a rookie whom the Magic drafted in the lottery in June; would have been a lateral move at the very best. They wouldn't have finished much better than 40-42; wouldn't have won more than 1 playoff game; and wouldn't have been able to sign Rashard Lewis in the offseason, as they wound up doing. They'd probably want to commit long-term money to Carter, or at least to Milicic. Let me put it this way: it's one thing for a mediocre team to trade all its assets for a 30-year-old All-Star. It smacks of "just being happy to be there," of just wanting to please the hometown fans with a crowd-favorite, even if it means the team won't actually improve.

This is the key difference: it's quite another thing for a championship contender to do the same thing for the same player, albeit 2 years older. Say what you will about Vince's age--he's 2 years older than Turkoglu is now, and he'll take over his role as the secondary ball-handler and primary perimeter scoring option--but it's irrefutable that he's a better player than Turk, and a likely Hall-of-Famer. I didn't ask Otis this question directly, so maybe I'm mistaken, but to me, the "fool's gold" remark meant that Carter was fools' gold for a borderline lottery team, as the Magic were when he made that comment. But for a championship contender? Not pyrite. The real thing.

Think of it this way: the San Antonio Spurs have angled for Carter since at least this year's trading deadline, and only settled for Richard Jefferson, his former Nets teammate and an inferior player, earlier this week when the Nets made it clear they wanted more than just expiring deals for him. The Spurs have one of the best and brightest front offices in all the NBA, if not all of professional sports. If they're targeting a guy, especially a perimeter guy to surround a franchise center, then there's a damn good reason for it. If he's good enough for the Spurs, he's definitely good enough for anyone else. Surely some Magic fans on the proverbial fence regarding Carter can acknowledge that much.

More commentary on the Carter trade follows the jump.

Star-divide

Adelson's second point, that media praise of the Carter deal rings hollow because Carter doesn't actually improve the team, just doesn't sit right with me. As we've explained in prior posts, Carter is an upgrade over Turkoglu; ditto with Anderson and Battie. Throw in the fact that Mickael Pietrus is better than, just not as consistent as, Lee; and the fact that management will go into the luxury-tax to pay for the right players; and every indication is that the team will likely be even better than the version that went to the Finals. There's no guarantee that Turkoglu would have returned before the Carter trade. Even if he had, there's no guarantee the Magic would have been any better off. Marc Stein said it better than I ever could:

In a step up from what Atlanta did with its deal for Jamal Crawford -- which should allow the Hawks to cope just fine if re-signing Mike Bibby gets too pricey -- Orlando didn't just protect itself against Turkoglu's departure. The Magic have potentially upgraded even if he leaves.

I've always believed Turkoglu is supremely underrated in terms of his importance to the Magic, but Carter's arrival [...] gives them an accomplished driver and defender whose homecoming to central Florida will enable Stan Van Gundy to flank Dwight Howard with three All-Stars (Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson and Carter) and defensive specialist Mickael Pietrus. Orlando can focus its free-agent business on hanging onto Marcin Gortat, which also is bound to be a bidding war but on a more palatable scale.

Think of this NBA offseason as a bizarre baseball game in which three teams compete. The Magic are 2 runs up on the Boston Celtics and 3 up on the Cleveland Cavaliers. Trading for Carter and Anderson while letting Turk walk could be, in baseball parlance, an "insurance run" tacked on. Two prominent NBA writers have, however, used more glowing terms to describe it. ESPN.com analyst Chad Ford called it "a home run," while Kelly Dwyer of Yahoo! Sports specified the length of said jimmy-jack, saying it's "a 450-foot" shot.

Enough garbled metaphors (3-team baseball game? what?), though. There's one more point to address, one which Adelson has mentioned and many others have echoed, essentially that Carter is past-his-prime and a quitter.

I can't say that I blame a fanbase of being wary of its team dealing a 24-year old rookie in order to replace him with a 32-year-old veteran, even a Hall-of-Famer, who used to be noted for his astonishing athleticism. I also can't fault Magic fans for being wary of Carter's decision to quit on the Toronto Raptors five years ago, when he tanked the first 20 games of their season by shooting 41.1% and scoring only 15.9 points per game--a year after averaging 24.5--in order to force a trade. Carter's cousin, Tracy McGrady, sulked through a similar season in Orlando the year prior. Once bitten, twice shy, etc. But again, let's remember context. It's never excusable to quit on a team, so don't misconstrue my comments as trying to let Carter off the hook for what amounts to giving the finger to his team and its fans. With that said, he had grown tired of the Raptors' empty promises to surround him with winning talent. He was sick of being The Man on a crappy team.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Carter, the millionaire athlete, and his first-world problems. Woe is him. But at 28, the prime of his career, he got fed up with losing. I'm sure he's not proud of that experience now, especially since it resulted in a few futile years with the Nets in which he had better teammates, but hardly any playoff success.

But let's contrast that situation--prime of his career, crappy team, sick of not having help--to his present one in Orlando. He's near the end of the line; near his hometown; playing for a contending team, as likely its second offensive option; with three other All-Stars, including the first reliable center with whom he's played in his 11 professional seasons. That's a stark difference in fortune. Could there be a better situation for him in the entire league than the one he's in now? And could there have been much worse of one than in Toronto in 2004? Again, I don't mean to make excuses for the man. Shareef Abdur-Rahim played his heart out in each of his 28,882 minutes in the NBA, and for awful teams. He didn't reach the playoffs until 2005/2006, his 10th season, managing all of 126 minutes before his Sacramento Kings bowed out against the Spurs. That's how one is meant to handle adversity in professional sports, not by forcing a trade, as Carter did. With that said, he's in an ideal situation here in Orlando. Once you consider the context, there is quite literally no rational reason for Magic fans to question his effort.

Before concluding, an admission by way of an aside: I was not a Carter fan in 2007, when the Magic could have pursued him in free agency, and deemed him the team's fifth-best option, behind Mo Williams, Chauncey Billups, Gerald Wallace, and Lewis. Here are excerpts from my appraisal of Carter, dated June 25th, 2007... or two years to the day before the Magic traded for him:

Vince Carter is overrated.

[....]

Once joining the Nets in a trade in December 2004, Carter's scoring, shooting, rebounding, and assists totals increased. Although it's true he played more minutes, the nature of the comments he made makes one question whether he just "flipped a switch" and decided to play hard. That has to trouble Carter's potential suitors because it demonstrates that Carter is capable of holding himself back considerably and to the detriment of the team.

His ability to play well in clutch situations should also be in question, especially after last season's mental lapses in the Nets' playoff series against the Cleveland Cavaliers [....]

[....]

[....] Carter's age makes him less than ideal as a free-agent, at least as far as the Magic are concerned.

[....]

Maybe I'm being too harsh in my assessment of Carter. He has been an All-Star in each of the past eight seasons and is one of the league's premier scorers. But he distinguished himself not with stellar play during games, but with jaw-dropping dunks during one of the league's more memorable All-Star Weekends. And that's not something I can get over.

[....]

Would I be sad to see Vince Carter in a Magic uniform? No, because he's still talented. However, I would be disappointed knowing that the Magic could have done better.

Additionally, I expressed satisfaction ("It's just as well [....] Carter's age and attitude would have made him a questionable choice") when Carter agreed to re-sign with the Nets. Orlando is now on the hook for that contract. Funny.

I mention these quotes not to undermine my own argument in this post, on this date--although that might be an ancillary result--but only in the interest of full disclosure. I was as against the Magic signing Carter then as many fans are about trading for him now. And I thought it was important, in the interests of my own credibility, to acknowledge as much in this post lest I face accusations of hypocrisy down the line. Hey, if I rail against people for the attitude/age issue now, it's not fair for me to try to sweep my own past criticism of Carter--on the same grounds, no less--under the rug.

And so what began as an exercise in how to read Smith ends reading more like an exhaustive defense of the man for whom he traded two days ago. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I suppose. The takeaways are, in whichever order you choose: that GMs are secretive by nature, and that we must consider context when ripping Carter--or anyone--for his past mistakes. With those factors accounted for, we can better understand Smith's prior comments on Carter, and why this deal looks like a better one than many Magic fans are willing to believe.

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Context is important.

But, a person’s past behavior is the best indicator of present/future behavior. I do believe that people can change, to an extent, so I hope for the best and expect the worst. Based on what I’ve seen and heard over the course of his career, to put it bluntly, he’s an older version of Amare Stoudemire, talented but generally indifferent.

Detras de ti, imbecil.

by Diosnomeama on Jun 27, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think we all can admit

That Carter has never been on a team as talented as the Magic.

Also, Turk flourished under Stan Van Gundy’s system. So did Rafer Alston. I’m starting to believe that we have a front office and coaching staff have developed a “system” of sorts that will work as long as players with certain qualities are plugged in. I can’t think of a good basketball reference, but sort of like how the New England Patriots are in football.

I think that playing in this system will help Vince Carter as he’s never played on this “type” of team. He also doesn’t have to be “the man.” As we have two other players in Jameer and Rashard that are more than capable of making big plays.

Maybe I’ve reached the point of rationalizing this trade, ‘cause honestly I’m still on the fence. I think team chemistry means a WHOLE lot.

by ggrant on Jun 27, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"System"

The basketball team you are looking to draw parallels to is the San Antonio Spurs. And Otis has said before that their success is the type he wants to emulate.

by Swami Digital on Jun 27, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chemistry means a lot.

But Vince is cool with Dwight, cool with Jameer, etc. Otis Smith wouldn’t have made this trade if he didn’t think VC would be able to fit in with the team. Otis is big on character and I think it’s safe to say, given what he did during his time with the Nets, that Carter has proven to be a high-character guy.

As eltharion_doa said below, you won’t find any New Jersey fans saying a bad word about him.

That should say something.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not so much concerned...

with the addition of Vince, so much as what looks like the eventual subtraction of Turk. All the players wanted Turk back.

by ggrant on Jun 29, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A valid concern.

I think everything will work out, though. The team had to adjust with Rafer Alston, and everything was fine. I expect more of the same with Vince Carter. I don’t foresee problems.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 29, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,and has anyone heard anything from D12?

Except his blog post,of course. And I am not so sure what his opinion in the matter is from it.

by Dzogi on Jun 29, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think, like everyone

He’s a little disappointed we had to give up Lee, and hopeful-but-not-optimistic that we find a way to get Turk back.

by eltharion_doa on Jun 29, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh

Most Nets fans won’t say a bad word about him, he’s played his butt off the past four seasons and has hardly had an injury problem.

We gave up nothing for an All-Star. Yeah, I’m OK with that.

by eltharion_doa on Jun 27, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Vince Carter was THE consummate professional during his tenure with the New Jersey Nets. People are opponents of the trade will point to dated and trite arguments to strength their positioning.

At the end of the day, VC will fit right in with the Orlando Magic. It’s as simple as that, folks.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily

But in this case, it doesn’t seem to have much grounding in what everyone else has seen for the past four years.

by eltharion_doa on Jun 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did I refer to your opinion explicitly? No.

I was speaking on what most people seem to be pointing to when trying to criticize Vince Carter. It really has no merit because he’s been of a standup pro during his time in New Jersey.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"People who are opponents of the trade will point to dated and trite arguments to strengthen their positioning."

That seems like a general condemning of anyone who disagrees with the trade. If I’m mistaken, my apologies.

Detras de ti, imbecil.

by Diosnomeama on Jun 29, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a general condemning. Just pointing out an observation I made.

I don’t have a problem with people not being supportive of the trade. I never expect a consensus opinion for everything .. just want the facts to be correct, that’s all.

No apologize is necessary. It’s cool.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 29, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PER is a nice stat to look at to compare players of the same position ..

.. and compare players as they progress season-by-season, that’s about it.

There’s a plethora of advanced statistics like adjusted plus/minus, statistical plus/minus, and other metrics that do a nice job of capturing the worth of individual players in an accurate manner (for the most part).

Carter will fit in fine .. I’m not concerned about the chemistry with Vince. The trade was worth doing because Carter is better than Turkoglu, and the other reasons you just stated, plus other ones too.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you

Very well written.
I’ve been talking with my friends and it seems like I’m one of the few that agree with you.
I think Carter will make a nice addition/improvement to the Magic. It would be great if we could keep Turk and/or Gortat, but there are others out there who would love to come play for us right now.

by Trident18 on Jun 27, 2009 1:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gortat and Turkoglu are, unfortunately, as good as gone.

.. but as you said, there are players that want to play with Orlando. That helps.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We gave up nothing for an all star?

How about team. Depth wins championships not one man. Lee, Battie, Rafer, Hedo, and whoever else may still go. Has Carter ever led a team to the NBA. finals?

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 27, 2009 2:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No...

But neither had Kevin Garnett before the Celtics acquired him.

And, to be fair, he doesn’t have to this time either. Howard, Nelson and Lewis all can – he just has to be part of the supporting cast.

by eltharion_doa on Jun 27, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

O.K.

I’ve seen this comment a bunch. What the ’ell does it mean.

Life's too short. Be a fan. Magic, Cards and Rays! What a winning combo.

by hevchv on Jun 27, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It takes more than that. You need a TEAM.

In case you haven’t noticed a major part of the bench is gone and one of the major driving forces of this team is fixin to be gone as well.You need depth and players that can step up when neded. That’s how they got to the finals. Otherwise those guys are gonna have to play a lot more minutes and by the time the playoffs roll around how much do you think will be left in the tank. This is far from over. They need to fill in the other pieces to this saga otherwise forget it.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 27, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Battie did not take many minutes, nor really played spectacular or anything, Anderson has a decent chance to be better than Batties role with his better shootng and rebounding rates, we miss his toughness, all around defense and veteran presence tho. Rafer was a STARTER, AJ was always a BACKUP, whteher it was to Rafer or to Jameer and we got to the Finals that way. Lee was really a backup in the playoffs after rd1, but JJ managed to steal all his in rd2 and has a whole year to get more into it and improve the one thing he was supposed to do but do everything else better. So we’re missing Gortat, who would frankly be resigned or bettered by Sheed or Dice. Also Bass should do better if he comes.
Really, youre not looking at a full roster yet, we still need Sheed or Dice or Bass, and one more OK big, and a backup SF or combo guard. So wait till summer is done. Also some of this is financial, so the Magic may have traded Battie andor Alston for a minor contract and player to resign only Hedo to his long term contract thered still be less depth. And that depth may have weakened over time as core contracts go on for years and not 1-2 like Vince’s.
This is the same ol knock on Magic last yr, theyhad no bench depth blah blah, then playoffs start, starters play major min,s and the team/bench has played and improved well enough by then to not even get a mention of oops so much for that totaly wronghack about no magic depth. if magic really do get Dice orSheed, they just upgraded frontcourt from last yr.

by derekk on Jun 28, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can't see an improved bench is gone when ..

.. Otis still has time to improve the reserves with Bass, Wallace, etc.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes i can It's not done till it's done.

If you look at my above statement. I said " THEY NEED TO FILL IN THE OTHER PIECES TO THIS SAGA OTHER WISE FORGET IT" I think this is true IMO. and i am reserving judgement on this trade until it is all said and done with the rest of the holes that need filling. Sorry but i’m not going to say everything is great until it is.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 29, 2009 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not expecting everyone to gush over the trade.

.. but let’s just wait and see. That’s all I’m saying.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

O.K. I just said i'm reserving judgement.

That’s my attitude let’s wait and see how it plays out.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 30, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hah.

What else can we do?

by Dzogi on Jun 30, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It means you agree.

Basically “they took the words right out of my mouth”.

by fwedo on Jun 28, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thank you

Life's too short. Be a fan. Magic, Cards and Rays! What a winning combo.

by hevchv on Jun 28, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kevin Garnett?

I’m sorry, i think that i misread your post…did you just compare one of the greatest talented and hardest working, defensive oriented, share first score second players in the history of the NBA —a certain Kevin Garnett —with Vince Carter? Are you crazy man.

by plyka on Jun 28, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. He was comparing the situations, not the players.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can't make that argument, because Otis Smith isn't done filling up the roster.

It’s not even July 1st yet? Come on now .. let’s hold off on the criticism until the season starts.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am coming around to this trade

…But some caveats are in order.

First, it’s not obvious that Anderson is a better prospect than Lee, despite the former’s higher PER rating. Lee was typically the fourth or fifth offensive option on the team, so he had relatively few opportunities to score (fortunately, he was very efficient in taking advantage of those chances). Anderson, on the other hand, played for a middling team, so he had greater opportunity to showcase his skill. I think Anderson will be a positive addition to the team, but Lee’s loss will linger.

This raises a broader point about the fallacy of valuing a team’s worth by adding up individual PER ratings (i.e., the “Fantasy Basketball fan effect”). The Magic finished this past season with the 4th best record in the NBA, but the aggregate PER rating of their individual players was probably around average for an NBA team (Howard and Nelson had very high PER ratings, but the rest of the team did not). The reason why the Magic were successful despite their so-so aggregate PER ratings for individual players is, of course, because the individual pieces fit well together.

I am reasonably confident that Carter will fit in with the Magic. But it’s not a shoo-in that he will— chemistry is a funny thing. And we should recognize that Otis is taking a major risk in significantly disrupting the chemistry of an NBA FInals-level team.

That said, I am beginning to think it was a risk worth taking. Not because Carter is an obvious upgrade over Turk; issue is complicated by Turk’s unique contribution to this team. But because Carter will be a major contributor to this team for the next two-three years and then leave. The problem with resigning Turk was that the new contract would probably last for four or five years and thereby constrain the Magic’s flexibility down the road.

by gift of the magi on Jun 27, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

PER is a nice stat to look at when comparing players of the same position ..

.. and comparing players as they progress season-by-season, that’s about it.

There’s a plethora of advanced statistics like adjusted plus/minus, statistical plus/minus, and other metrics that do a nice job of capturing the worth of individual players in an accurate manner (for the most part).

Carter will fit in fine .. I’m not concerned about the chemistry with Vince. The trade was worth doing because Carter is better than Turkoglu, and the other reasons you just stated, plus other ones too.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All That Glitters is NOT Gold.

Look at the Iverson deal. Detroit got a star player but lost a major part of team that upset the wheel cart. Could be the same here. Without depth and team chemistry this team could end up an also ran. I believe in rewarding the players that get you there.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 27, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The truth is….we more than likely weren’t going to get Turk even if we didn’t make this deal. And comparing this to the Detroit deal is apples and oranges, Detroit gave up Chauncey Billups, arguably one of the greatest clutch performers and point guards in the nba today for AI. We gave up a talented rookie but not a stud, an overpayed backup PF, and a backup point guard with head issues. Thats a deal I can live with.

by Rebounder on Jun 27, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure,but

I don’t buy this new popular opinion about Turk.
Can anyone explain me why we weren’t going to get him(before VC trade),please?

by Dzogi on Jun 27, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He wanted 11m p.a. and five years

Maybe we would have given him that, but it would have been a bad deal.

by eltharion_doa on Jun 27, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he'd sign for about 9 with magic.

And it wouldn’t be a bad deal,maybe worse than this trade,but time’ll tell that.

by Dzogi on Jun 27, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you think that?

I’ve not read or heard anything that suggests that. I think it’s wishful thinking on your behalf.

by eltharion_doa on Jun 27, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol,coul be just a fan speaking...

But I think what kills it for Hedo was the contract’s LENGTH.
He wants this last shot to be as big as possible,and we understand that.
Anyway,farewell,Turk.

by Dzogi on Jun 27, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your truth is false.

The REAL truth is Turk wanted to stay in Orlando and never wanted this to get this far. as this,something could have been done for him a long time ago. He had to play the year out basically not knowing where he stood for 11mil. less than his counterpart per year. Are you saying nothing could have been done for him before they got Carter? Don’t think so.And to blow off the other players who got the team to the finals is forgetting the real truth. A talented rookie, a overpaid backup PF,a backup PG. with head issues who got you to the finals and i think you left one out >Hedo who got shafted and won’t be signed.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 28, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ill agree that hedo wouldve wanted to stay in orlando and it was there to happen, but the magic did not seem it financially sound nor as good a player as vince carter. time will tell, but i wont even start a debate as to whos a better player between the two. stats show it go click and loo at %s, APG is the same too, and the advanced clutch stats are overwhelming in favor of vc who prolly had less games to show for it than hedo who had all playoff longs.

by derekk on Jun 28, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Otis could have re-signed Hedo, probably.

.. but would it have been best for the team to sign Turkoglu to a long-term deal, thus crippling the team’s flexibility in the future when you get Carter, who’s contract runs for 2 to 3 more years and is a better player? I’m sure everyone here would choose to opt for the latter of the two scenarios.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

technicalities

I think that this trade needs to be looked at like this:

Hedo + Alston + Lee + Battie for VC and Anderson.

With VC here Hedo is GONE. If they passed on VC then they would have been able to get Hedo. So if you do not include hedo when you are making comparisons, then what you’re really doing is using a technicality to obfuscate the argument in the magic’s favor.

by plyka on Jun 28, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uhh .. no.

You can’t compare trades in that manner because Otis Smith hasn’t finished up completing the roster. But hey .. let’s make a slanted argument when the roster hasn’t been set in stone yet.

Genius.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Iverson was pretty clearly done, though

And the Pistons traded for him for his contract, not his ability.

Carter isn’t done, nor are we chasing his contract.

by eltharion_doa on Jun 27, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correct, correct, and correct.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Iverson was done? Traded for contract not ability? Sense?

Iverson was not done when he was with nugs.Just did not fit in with Pistons. Not correct.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 29, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're the first person I've encountered who thinks the Pistons made that trade to improve their chances of winning last season

They made that deal to get out from under Billups’ contract so that they could make a splash in free-agency this summer. Iverson was never going to play beyond last season in Detroit.

by Ben Q Rock on Jun 29, 2009 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't think they made the trade to do both?

Surely you don’t think they acquired Iverson and expected to lose with him. Had nothing to do with his renowned ability? Dumping contracts don’t always play out well. As evidenced by that deal. Don’t put words in my statement that i didn’t say. No way though did they think that it would play out like that. They never would have made the trade if they thought he would not fit in.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 30, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No offense, but I think you're overreacting way too much.

Depth? Again, as I’ve said numerous times .. the off-season isn’t over yet. I think all criticism should be reserved until Otis Smith .. you know, fills up the damn roster once free agency his on July 1st. Sorry for sounding frustrated, but I don’t understand this argument about lack of depth or problems with team chemistry when a.) the off-season just begun and b.) no games have been played, last time I checked.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What happened to one tweak? With Gortat? We did have a good bench. Now what?

It’s wait and see. Put a team on the floor and HOPE it works. IMO. one of the plusses of the OLD team was the way they played together AND also the way the bench developed. I have seen this type of thing before and it doesn’t always play out the way you think. All i’m saying is this is a gamble that may or may not work. It’s not too hard to understand.

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 29, 2009 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

These guys are professionals .. they know what to do.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 29, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correct.

And Courtney and Gortat will be doing just that next year( for other teams).

The Surfdog

by Surfdog on Jun 30, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

@ magi: Having an average PER and then having two players with well above average PER makes the team above average in PER. PER also doesn’t account for defense like it needs to. Also the assumption that when added they are average could be wrong without simply adding them and looking, and I wonder if PER was meant to be used that way anyway.

@everyone: I am incredibly psyched about this trade. I love this trade. I think that Turk is underrated by the common fan, and almost overrated on these boards. The first time someone admitted Vince Carter was better than Turk on here I was shocked. I was shocked they admitted it. Battie was worthless this last season, and it makes me sad, because before he missed that season with his injury he was a great defensive cog and contributor. Alston had to go because of issues with Nelson, which it was clear in Alston’s mind he was saying the right things but his ego wasn’t in sync with those words. I must have watched and read and reread every interview with Alston during the finals, and I got the sense he was really thrown off by Jameer’s minutes. Not to say he couldn’t get used to it coming off the bench for the year, but I believe he would have been a better asset as a trade option in a contract year player than as a mid-level salary backup.

Besides all of that, which undoubtedly all of you here know, I think the main detraction of Vince is perceptual. The viral notion that he corrodes a team, or can’t contribute to a winner. In New Jersey they had a very strong backcourt in Kidd, Carter, but their best wing was the overrated RJ. Contrast that with our team. All star PG, Vince, but also Rashard, who I’d take over RJ anyday, and Dwight. What? That is disgusting. Vince is two years older, but compare him to other SG’s, not his younger self. Name SG’s you’d rather have than VC based purely on playing the game from this list of all star contenders on both sides of the Game:

Leandro Barbosa, Phoenix;
Raja Bell, Phoenix;
Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers;
Monta Ellis, Golden State;
Manu Ginobili, San Antonio;
Stephen Jackson, Golden State;
Kevin Martin, Sacramento;
O.J. Mayo, Memphis;
Tracy McGrady, Houston;
J.R. Smith, Denver;
Jason Terry, Dallas;
 Ray Allen, Boston;
Gilbert Arenas, Washington;
 Jamal Crawford, New York;
 Ben Gordon, Chicago;
Richard Hamilton, Detroit;
Joe Johnson, Atlanta;
Anthony Parker, Toronto;
Michael Redd, Milwaukee;
 Jason Richardson, Charlotte;
 Dwyane Wade, Miami

Im taking Kobe and Wade for sure. I’d rather have VC than Rip, Joe Johnson. Look at the injuries on this list as well: Arenas, Redd, McGrady, Martin, Ellis. Then Allen is even older. VC over richardson for sure, same for ben gordon. This list is a don’t make me laugh kind of list. In the end I’d say if Manu is healthy, Kobe and Wade, and that’s about it (maybe Kevin Martin, very efficient scorer who would kick ass with magic). Otherwise you’re talking about a Mayo, on potential maybe. But I’d take a crafty veteran over a 2nd year player like Mayo for a championship team most of the time, especially when the vet is Vince, hometown, trying to get that elusive Ring.

This move makes our team scary elite.

by Thomas Whigham on Jun 27, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Take Martin off the list.

He can play, but he has the most disgusting looking shot next to Bill Cartwright. Yeah it goes in, but it is UGLY!!! And I would absolutely take Joe Johnson. Almost single handedly turned the Hawks around. He goes, they are back to bottom feeders. OJ Mayo, check. Kobe, check. Wade, check. And how could you forget Derreck Rose. I guess you’re talking 2 guards. Well Barbosa, Ellis, Terry, Arenas and Crawford all see major minutes at the point. Agree w/everything else though.
Good shot.

Life's too short. Be a fan. Magic, Cards and Rays! What a winning combo.

by hevchv on Jun 27, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Brandon Roy?

contributing nothing substantial to your blog, since 2008!

by misterterrific on Jun 27, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hedo overrated on this site?

.. I doubt that. I think everyone knows that Turkoglu, while he had his flaws, was simply a player that presented a lot of mismatch problems against opposing teams. I don’t see what’s overrated about that.

When push comes to shove, I think everyone here KNOWS that Carter > Turkoglu. It ain’t that hard.

I think you’re slighting the intelligence level of this community a little bit with that type of statement. Maybe I’m overreacting a bit, maybe I’m not. But that particular comment irked me, so I had to say something.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you took it that way because you don’t think you overrated him. which is fair.

by Thomas Whigham on Jun 28, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another 48 Minutes also said:

After RJ was gone, luckily we still had Vince Carter, and it was time for him to show if he’s able to lead a young team, to see if he could go through a season of what some people would call "a rebuilding year". And VC just did that without complaining, teaching the young guys, playing at least three positions throughout the season, and oh yeah, averaging 20, 5 and 5 along the way. Sure, he wanted to win a championship, but he emphasized that he was content with his current situation, and enjoyed the process of building a team, making the rookies better; doing whatever that was needed to be done to help the organization during this tough process of being perceived as mediocre.

by Thomas Whigham on Jun 27, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As I said above, VC was the consummate professional during his tenure with the New Jersey Nets.

I think putting Vince Carter on a team like the Orlando Magic will pay dividends for all parties involved.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kelly Dwyer

Referred to it as a 450-foot “homer”, not a 450-foot “shot”. Shots that far never go in, unless you’re Lebron James, of course.

by Kennedy K on Jun 27, 2009 3:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Correct.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

my thoughts

Trade for me looks like C.Lee for VC and Ryan Anderson. I don’t like Raf or Battie. For the next 3 years VC will be a better player then Courtney Lee. So trade makes sense, my gut tells me we couldn’t bring back Turk, so the move had to be made.

I am still more interested to see what moves Dwight learns over the summer.

"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z

by Wmillion on Jun 27, 2009 3:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe...

Rasheed could show him some moves? HAH…

by Kennedy K on Jun 27, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He already knows the elbow and technical moves =P what else does he need, the ejection move? lol. I kid of course, D12 is nothing like Sheed =)

by Rebounder on Jun 27, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A little more like him prob wouldn't hurt though.

Just a little more tude to show his hunger and I’d be satisfied.

Life's too short. Be a fan. Magic, Cards and Rays! What a winning combo.

by hevchv on Jun 27, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, and I think losing this year will help him out with the hunger part but we shall see.

by Rebounder on Jun 27, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sheed is beast in the low post.

Just doesn’t go down there enough.

"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z

by Wmillion on Jun 27, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the main knock on Sheed

Aside from the techs, the fact he has such a good post game but never utilizes it is the most frustrating thing about him. Oh, and I wouldn’t read too much into his effort level last year. He wanted a buyout so he could sign with Cleveland and Dumars didn’t give it to him and he basically mailed it in (moreso than usual) after that.

by Ben R on Jun 28, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It happens. I'm not knocking Rasheed for the situation in Detroit last year.

.. he wasn’t alone in his frustration. Dude wants to win. Have to respect that.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 28, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like this move because this team is in a much better position to be having both the talent and the contract of someone like Vince Carter. As Mr. Ben Q. Rock noted in his old post:

Luckily for all parties involved, it appears as though Carter and the Nets are close to reaching an agreement on a contract extension, according to the Star-Ledger. It’s just as well. The Nets are closer to contending than the Magic are, so his age isn’t as much a concern in the Garden State.

The Magic are exactly in that position, i.e. them being a contending team with a solid core featuring 2 players who would continue to both grow and still produce at a high level in ‘Meer and Dwight while also having the services of an All-Star talent in Rashard Lewis. Vince Carter’s acquisition is some sort of risk that could very well be taken given these circumstances, even if it meant Orlando losing Hedo.

If some kind of attitude is the concern, then I guess the question has to be directed to Otis.

As discussed in the Chris Ballard piece:

Smith is so focused on turning Howard into a leader that he’s taken some counterintuitive steps—such as excising players who are too influential, even in positive ways. “We loved Grant Hill, and he was great for this franchise, but we thought it was best for Dwight as a leader if he weren’t here,” Smith says. “Same for [outspoken reserve guard] Keyon Dooling last year. We’ll protect Dwight until the point where he can handle what I call a dominant personality.”

Such a move, to me, is indicative of Otis either having faith in Howard’s readiness as a leader who can weather any in-house storm or his subscription to the belief that Carter is not some sort of locker room pandemic waiting to happen.

For whatever the reasoning management had, you guys are just going to have to wait and see how the off season signings will shape this team. After that, you’re all just going to have to wait how the finished product is going to pan out once the season begins.

This is a predicament most fans of other teams wish they could be having.

Great read, Ben.

contributing nothing substantial to your blog, since 2008!

by misterterrific on Jun 28, 2009 3:10 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

wrong link

Here’s the piece, just to refresh your memories in case you’ve forgotten.

contributing nothing substantial to your blog, since 2008!

by misterterrific on Jun 28, 2009 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good article EXCEPT...

the remarks about Vince Carter being a Hall of Famer. Air Canada is borderline, AT BEST, of being a Hall of Famer. I’ll bet my life savings that he never makes it, and this is based purely on a career of being the primary go-to option for both franchises he’s played for. Now he’s going to tack on several years of being a 2nd to 3rd wheel? Kiss that Hall of Fame berth goodbye.

by tandur on Jun 29, 2009 3:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll take your bet, and raise you my life.

Vince Carter will be a Hall of Famer.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Jun 29, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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