Could a Lewis for Bosh trade happen?
by RussL on Apr 10, 2009 2:38 PM EDT
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PrintWith all the talk about trying to re-sign Hedo and Gortat, and the salary limitations that the Magic have, I played around a little bit with ESPN's NBA Trade Machine. A straight up trade between Orlando and Toronto involving Lewis and Bosh is actually feasible. Now the question becomes, is it something either team would realistically look at?
If I'm Toronto, I'm worried about Bosh leaving as a free agent in 2010, and being left with nothing. Toronto is not exactly a go-to destination for high profile NBA players. Yes, the Raptors will have a great deal of money to throw around that same summer - with a high number of premium free agents available... but is anyone actually going to want to go to Toronto? The better option for them may be to trade for someone already under a long-term contract that the team can build around. Lewis, an all-star of course, could fit into that. Totonto's lack of any real long-term high priced contracts gives them the flexibility to take on Lewis's contract without any fears of mortaging the team's future. Only one player is on a contract longer than 3 years (Calderon @ 5). With no real apparant long-term plan in place, Lewis could become the basis for one.
As far as the Magic are concerned, Bosh should fit in nicely beside Howard. The Magic's front court would be unrivaled. They already have enough perimeter players, they can afford to lose Lewis without really hurting themselves. From a financial standpoint, it would immediately free up a little space to re-sign Turkoglu. Salary cap numbers aside, a Magic team with Bosh has to be the favorite to win a championship in '09-'10. That's got to present a pretty attractive reason to stay for Hedo, even if it means not getting paid his full market value. The big question would be what happens in the summer of 2010. Would Bosh stay, or go? Would he take a pay-cut? Is there anyone out there to replace him if he were to leave? I'd think with Battie and Alston coming off the books that summer (assuming they're still with the team at the time) there'd be enough flexibility to keep him with the team. It also doesn't hurt that he's a good friend of Howard's. Even if Bosh were to leave, the Magic would have a fair amount of money to throw at another free agent. Playing alongside Howard on a championship calibur team in a place with no state income tax for big bucks has got to be a pretty ideal situation :) It IS the summer of LeBron after all....
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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That would be nice for the Magic
But, Isiah Thomas isn’t the GM for Toronto, and I think he’d be the only one dumb enough to make that deal. I can’t remember when that last time an all-star player was traded straight up for another.
by AB's triple double on Apr 10, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions
doesnt lewis have a NTC??? Either way I dont see The Raps taking on a contract as horrible as Lewis’s
No. The only player in the league with a NTC is Kobe Bryant.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
.. and this trade would never happen, btw.
It’s nice to think about, obviously, but just too unrealistic of a scenario to even consider.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
yah, it's not unfeasable
i just don’t ever see it working.
what i do think people think is “oh having two great bigs doesn’t work”. false. it’s been done, and by championship teams.
NO
unless someone gets Colangelo so hammered and around the trade phones sometime
"In order for us to make a move, It has to make sense" - Otis Smith's favorite saying
Maybe Chris Wallace down in Memphis could lend Colangelo some of the leftover crack from that Pau Gasol trade?
This post was bought to you by British beer, cured meat products and Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje: the player so good, they named him twice.
Certainly a possibility ..
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Nah, no chance. An expiring contract, or just letting Bosh expire, is better than Rashard Lewis’ mammoth deal. It’s just too much money for too little of a contribution.
The Raptors will definitely get better offers for Bosh this summer.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
Agreed.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Oops .... I don't understand
I don’t understand why so many Orlando Magic fans want a star power forward. I fully get the interest in having another big man, particularly to help on the backboards, but why a star?
Why Amare Stoudemire? A Chris Bosh? A Carlos Boozer? I see these names mentioned by so many Magic fans.
I think the team needs a star player on the perimeter. Someone who can create for himself (scoring) and others (assists) and be the clutch go-to option this team needs. I think that’s the priority for the team.
I think Dwight’s brilliance in the paint makes it unnecessary for another top level big man. I think Orlando only needs a role player, a tough defensive good rebounding MLE type of power forward. I think they’d get more value from a Haslem and Joe Johnson, than say a James Posey and Chris Bosh — because it creates better balance throughout the team and fills the club’s biggest needs.
I think adding another max contract on another big man will make it extremely difficult for the Magic to have enough talent on the perimeter.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
I think that, Jameer Nelson and Hedo Turkoglu, leaves a small margin for error on the perimeter. I think they both have to play to their maximum ability to give the Magic a shot at winning a title, and that prolonged (four playoff series) need for excellence makes the squad overly vulnerable. I consider that combination on the perimeter to be just about good enough to get it done.
And I find myself asking a question — What happens if either player’s performance declines?
- Hedo’s game has already dropped from last season to this year. He’s 30 years old and likely to decline further at some point in the near future.
- Jameer Nelson just had a career season. Can he expand on that? Or is this his peak? Will he experience a small drop off and level out in coming seasons?
I’m not comfortable enough depending on both guys as the keys to Orlando’s title bid for the next four-to-five seasons. I believe if the slightest thing goes wrong, it’ll leave the club in a difficult spot.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
I think you're concentrating too much on Nelson & Turkoglu.
Yes, Hedo regressed to the mean this season and this season’s production will probably be the output the Magic see for the next few years, if they’re able to retain him. Likewise, expect Nelson to also regress to the mean a bit next season, given that it’s highly unlikely he’ll be able to shoot at such a blistering and efficient pace as he did this year. But even then ..
.. you need to figure that Howard, Lee, and a few other players will continue to improve, thus offsetting some of the dips in output that have occurred (Hedo) and that will occur (Jameer). The club’s margin for error isn’t as small as you think it may be.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
By a small margin of error I mean relative to Boston, Lakers and possibly Cleveland.
I think more things can go wrong with those teams, while managing to allow those teams to retain their chance of winning a series against an elite opponent.
For example, last year in the in Cavs-Celtics series, Ray Allen stunk up the joint. Paul Pierce also had a poor series offensively with the exception of one great game and one good game. Rajon Rondo also struggled mightily in the road games.
The Lakers also went through a similar episode in the Conference Finals when Pau scored only 13ppg, and Lamar notched only 13ppg, and the rest of the teams offense fell apart outside of Kobe Bryant. Yet, they Lakers still found a way. They have even more in reserve now that Andrew Bynum is healthy.
I don’t think this Orlando team has that same quality. They’re most certainly a legit Contender (when healthy), but I’d still place them a notch below the others. I think the Magic have to play closer to their peak than other top teams do .. and I think that becomes more difficult to do for four straight series in the playoffs.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
Yeah, but ..
.. Cleveland last year was, for the most part, all LeBron.
As for San Antonio, Ginobili wasn’t himself that series.
Those are series in which the opposition didn’t present much resistance in the first place. Of course Boston & Los Angeles could afford to be “off”. It’s not because their talent pool was so vast .. it’s because the talent pool of their opponent wasn’t vast. Hopefully I make sense with what I’m trying to state.
When healthy, Orlando is in the same caliber of Boston & Cleveland .. easily. They’re not a notch below (a number of experts would agree with me). The Magic have four All-Star caliber players, have an underrated bench, have an elite defense and (when healthy) an elite offense. The key in the playoffs is defense and Orlando plays plenty of it. I disagree that the Magic have to play closer to their peak, considering how deep the team is with regards to go-to scorers and playmakers. If Jameer is off, Dwight/Hedo/Rashard can step up, and so on and so forth. Lest we forget that Orlando was blazing an absolute trail with Nelson at the helm .. a team that was on pace for 60-65 wins with relative ease. I can’t agree with the notion the Magic are a notch below when fully healthy. No way. The numbers would beg to differ.
Next season, Boston is going to naturally decline, given the age of the team’s superstars, etc. Cleveland is going to offer resistance as long as LeBron is in a Cavs uniform. With Jameer and (assuming) Hedo back, Orlando is going to be right there with either team. Shoot, they’re going to be right there with anyone in the NBA.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
A side question for a moment — If I offered you two Magic teams, which would you choose? And why?
Team A: Nelson, Lee, Hedo, Lewis and Dwight
Team B: Rafer, Wade, Rasual Butler, Haslem and Dwight
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
Oh, gosh.
Bullet to the head and at first glance, I’d say it’s .. essentially, a tie.
Short answer. Quickly delving into the numbers and trends, I think both teams have their respective advantages, which in the end .. cancel out, in my opinion.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Okay.
I’d pick Team B. I think having Wade and some good role players is better than three borderline All-Stars.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
Fair enough.
I’m too lazy to whip out the numbers I came across on B-Ref, 82G, etc. .. and lay out elaborate reasons for my opinion. Rather than butcher this discussion to death, I’ll acknowledge your comment.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Yes, I understand what you’re stating at the start of your comment and it’s a fair point. The San Antonio part (Ginobili injury) more than the Cleveland part.
The again, Orlando lost to an inferior Pistons squad relative to both San Antonio and Cleveland, and late in that series Detroit lost Chauncey to an injury. The Magic lost because a couple of their better players where bothered offensively, and that loss of contributions made it very difficult for the Magic to compete.
I think the Magic are more vulnerable to their best players under-performing offensively, and I think it effects them team-wide more so than the three other contenders.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
I think the Detroit loss was more mental than anything else.
Had it been another team, I’d buy the argument but not with the Pistons. They’re a complete thorn on the side of the Magic. I joke around here sometimes .. you could trot out five giraffes on the court. If they wore “Detroit” on the front of their jerseys, Orlando would lose.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Fair enough. I disagree but fair enough.
I think that series last season highlighted several flaws in the team, flaws which I expect to rear their ugly head in the future — namely against Boston in the second this season.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
They're flaws, as so much as the team that they face exposes them.
If Orlando plays Cleveland or Los Angeles, I like the Magic’s chances in a seven-game series against either team in the roster’s present shape.
Boston? They’re a match-up problem. Ditto with Detroit.
The NBA is all about match-ups. Each of the elite teams in the league have a team (or two) they don’t want to face in the playoffs. With Cleveland, it’s Orlando. With Boston, it’s Cleveland. With Orlando, it’s Boston (and Detroit). With Los Angeles, it’s Cleveland and Orlando. I can go on ..
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Nelson and Turkoglu where the focus because they’re the only two players on the roster who can create off the dribble for both themselves and their teammates at a high level.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
To compare:
If you compare what Hedo and Nelson can do off the dribble versus the main contenders:
Boston — Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen
Cleveland — LeBron James and Mo Williams
San Antonio — Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker
Los Angeles — Kobe Bryant
Of these five teams, I think Orlando comes off the worst. When you need someone, or a couple of people, on the perimeter to take over a game … I think Orlando is worse off in comparison to those teams. I think each of those four other teams are more capable of controlling a game through their best perimeter players
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
I think they do compare.
Between Hedo aznd Nelson you got 10 asts. and 38% from 3. And if you add Lewis in the mix it looks even better.
The Surfdog
What you got there is.....
2 all-stars and as you say a borderline all-star. Not to shabby.
The Surfdog
Answer the question another way ....
In the past, on this site, I’ve regularly said that Jameer Nelson is the key to Orlando becoming a legitimate contender or not.
Hedo Turkoglu is an excellent player, a borderline All-Star, capable of doing great things. But he is not, to state the obvious, a Dwayne Wade/Kobe Bryant/LeBron James/Paul Pierce level threat from the perimeter. Because he’s only a borderline All-Star versus an All-NBA or MVP level talent, the Magic absolutely need a second major threat on the perimeter — Jameer Nelson.
That second threat needs to be able to both score (15ppg) and to create for others (5apg). That second threat provides Orlando with enough on the perimeter, in combination with Hedo, to compete for a title.
……………………………………………………………………
A Joe Johnson or a Brandon Roy (perimeter equivalent of Bosh/Amare/Boozer) does not need a second threat from the perimeter. They’re good enough to carry that burden by their lonesome.
Now you get that perimeter guy, and you manage to keep Jameer and Dwight, and replace Lewis with a Haslem-type, then the Magic would be in an absolutely wonderful position. Both from a basketball standpoint and a financial standpoint (filling the rest of the roster)
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
It's highly unlikely that Lewis will be replaced.
The Magic have to play with their current deck of cards, which may get shuffled a bit during the off-season. I fully expect Hedo to come back to the team, but it’ll be interesting to see how GM Otis Smith will go about re-structuring the roster to make things work, more so, financially.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Well, thank you sir.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
Hedo's perimeter #'s.
Compared to Wade, Bryant, James @ Pierce the only one shooting it better from the perimeter is Pierce 38.4% vs. 35.7@ but Hedo avgs. more assists 4.9 vs. 3.8.
The Surfdog
I’m talking about perimeter players — point guards, shooting guards and small forwards (perhaps even a perimeter orientated big. Rashard Lewis certainly qualifies) — but I’m talking about their total game, and overall impact on a game, not one or two specific skills by their lonesome.
The overall impact by a player who plays a perimeter position.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
Well then you must be talking about Hedo then
because he definitely fits the bill of an overall impact player and perimeter oriented big. Hedo doesn’t get the media attention that those other guys because he is not as flamboyant but people around the league sure know what he is capable of. I’ll toot his horn a little more by saying not many 6’10 guys in the league can do what he can. That is shoot the fade away 3 , make the great pass inside, drive to the basket and finish with either hand, rebound. So talk about a total game and impact i don’t think he is one dimensional or 2 dimensional at all i think he more than qualifies. The only other guy i can put in his category is Nowitzki who is 7’0.
The Surfdog
Absolutely, Hedo Turkoglu is a terrific player. Like I said earlier, I consider him a borderline All-Star — and I also consider him Orlando’s second best player.
Hedo just isn’t of the same caliber as MVP talents like LeBron James, Dwayne Wade or Kobe Bryant. Or All-NBA talents like Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson. Hedo is a notch below that, as a borderline All-Star, and comparable to players like Caron Butler.
Because he’s not of equal ability of those players, he needs a second high level player on the perimeter who can create off the dribble for both himself and others — which he has with Jameer Nelson — which makes Orlando a legitimate contender.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
I'll agree to disagee.
I’ll agree they are a legitimate contender sans the point that they have beaten all the top teams in the league. But i still think they have an abundance of players that can play from the perimeter and create off the dribble. Maybe not all all stars like Lewis was this year but guys that are capable of getting it done. Hedo definitely should have been an All Star last year. This year his scoring has dropped off a little but his assists have gone up. Now with Alston i think they have the other guy besides Nelson that your talking about.
The Surfdog
I fully agree that Hedo should have been an All-Star last season.
It might be unclear so just to explain, when I say borderline All-Star, I mean a player who is capable of making a few All-Star appearances but doesn’t make it each and every year. Someone who gets to the dance when he’s having one of the best seasons of his career. For example, Rashard Lewis.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/
As a matter of fact...
Lewis doesn’t do to bad from the perimeter. Shoots 39.7%. Not a great assist man at 2.6 but can definitely knock it down.
The Surfdog
God, I hope not.
Bosh is just such a lukewarm player. You know how everyone’s always talking about intangibles, saying so-and-so does things that don’t show up in the box score? Well, Bosh is the opposite of that. The box score shows everything that guy does. He’s like the modern-day Jermaine O’Neal — he produces stuff for you, and it’s not like he’s one of those Stephon Marbury guys who’s LESS valuable than his stats because he’s bad for chemistry/hogs the ball/etc., but… ugh. He’s just SO unexciting.
Bosh just needs to get out of Toronto (no offense intended to the city or franchise). Just saying.
I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.
Used to mix the wine with the lean/Now we sip soda with the Barre/20 inch blades on the car - Pimp C
I'd take Bosh in a heartbeat.
We’d have to seriously sweeten that deal though, like include C. Lee and/or Gortat and take back Kapono and what ever else they wanted to unload. But Bosh has an offensive game like Garnett, only better, and the potential to eventually play some serious D.
I see the argument that getting another big is redundant and that having to superstars at the 4/5 can become tedious, but really Bosh has potential to be a very range oriented forward, which would fit in nicely with Dwight’s dominance of the paint.
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
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