The Magic And Retired Numbers
by FLYNN47 on Feb 24, 2009 1:20 PM EST
78 comments
Here is this week's showcased fanpost. FLYNN47 poses a series of questions to the 3QC community concerning jersey retirements. Which Magic player deserves to be immortalized in the rafters? Let the debate begin. - ER
I have seen many blogs, polls and articles over the past few years about the Orlando Magic and their reluctance to retire jerseys.
We do have one, #6 which was retired in honor of 'The Fans' (although it was un-retired for Patrick Ewing in 2001-02), but why the reluctance to honor others who contributed and built the franchise?
Who deserves it? Who doesn't?
Our first face of the franchise, Nick Anderson?
in a few years, will Shaq, The man who carried the magic to the national spotlight have earnt a spot?
Some would even say Darrell Armstrong, the Heart of the heart and hussle era.
The list could get longer too.... Penny, Dennis Scott, Horace Grant, T-Mac?
Lets find out from the most loyal Blue Bloods, who do you think merits having their jersey hanging from the new Orlando Arena?
Remember, there are no wrong answers (Just silly ones. Ask the Heat, who have Michael Jordan and Dan Marino hanging from the ceiling!)
This FanPost was made by a member of the Orlando Pinstriped Post community, and is to be treated as the opinions and views of its author, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
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Arguably the best player in Magic history (T-Mac was damn productive, too), but "putting a team on the map" doesn't mean much if you leave when you leave at the first opportunity.
Shaq will always be remembered as a Laker first and a Magic player second, or maybe third.
I say Shaq will be remembered as a Laker first, Heat second, Magic third.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
When Shaq's contract expires next year
And he comes back to Orlando as a backup center for the minimum salary to help us win a championship. Only then should we retire his number.
by AB's triple double on Feb 24, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
he says a lot, then does the complete opposite
the Big Geritol will be playing—and getting paid for it—for as long as he possibly can.
You read it! You can't unread it!
by TheGiantSquid on Feb 24, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
My take.
I don’t know why there’s been a reluctance to honor players from the Magic’s past. Yes, Orlando has recognized a variety of players over the years in a number of ways, but no one has earned the ultimate recognition of having their jersey retired. I’m clueless as to why that is. Honestly.
Who deserves the honor? Well, let’s first establish what the criteria should be. If you look around the NBA, usually teams honor former players if a.) the player was with the team for a considerable amount of time (exceptions are made), b.) the player achieved a number of accolades with a respective team, c.) the player left a memorable impression with a respective team.
Points [ a ] and [ b ] are heavily stressed .. [ c ] is too, but not as much as [a] and [b]. Usually [ c ] leaves the possibility of a tragic death (Bobby Phills, Reggie Lewis) allowing a team to honor that player despite him lacking the "pre-requisites" .. so to speak.
So with all that said, which Magic players fit the profile?
- Nick Anderson (Absolute no-brainer. We, as fans, went through hell and back with Nick. He was the first franchise player for Orlando and he truly left a mark on the team throughout his playing career. I think any Magic supporter would agree that his steal vs. Michael Jordan in Game 1 in the 1995 NBA Semifinals is HIS moment of glory for both himself and the team. Fans that boo him at games should be ashamed because of it wasn’t for The Steal, there would be no NBA Finals appearance for the Magic. Yes, we know about the Four Missed Free-Throws but don’t think Anderson wasn’t affected by the whole ordeal. He was a mess mentally the next year, in 1996, yet he toughed through it and bounced back nicely in 1997. When it’s all said and done, Nick was a class act and remains a loyal Magic supporter to this day.)
- Shaq (I won’t front. I’m on the fence with Mr. O’Neal but it’s hard to argue when Shaq put Orlando Magic basketball on the map. O’Neal was the face of the franchise for four seasons and he clearly left his mark on the franchise (both in a good way and in a bad way). The guy is going to go down as one of the most dominant players in the history of the NBA and as such, I think it’s extremely difficult NOT to retire his jersey given the amount of accomplishments Shaq garnered with the Magic and with the Lakers/Heat. I don’t think O’Neal should be penalized for leaving Orlando .. remember, the Sentinel put that infamous poll up asking whether he was "worth the money", plus the Magic franchise lowballed him an offer. I think that "evidence" needs to be presented in the argument. I can’t really blame O’Neal for bouncing, considering the circumstances. I say yes for Shaq, but I’ll understand those that say no. He’s a tough call.)
- Darrell Armstrong (Yes. Yes. Yes. Y-E-S. Like Anderson, Armstrong is a complete no-brainer. Darrell completely epitomized Heart & Hustle basketball during his tenure with the Magic. Armstrong was a fantastic player in his prime, and as such, he’s the only player in the history of the NBA to win the Sixth Man of the Year Award and Most Improved Player Award simultaneously. Darrell had his moments, both good (the infamous steal against Philly) and bad (the infamous layup in the 1996 NBA Slam Dunk Contest). There’s really nothing more to say about Armstrong. He was awesome.)
Those would be the three players I’d honor.
Tracy McGrady – No. He’s similar to Shaq, in the sense he only lasted four years with the team but O’Neal’s accomplishments > McGrady’s accomplishments. At least Shaq helped lead the Magic to an NBA Finals appearance, its one and only 60 win season, etc. All T-Slack did was score and get bounced in the First Round of the playoffs each year. Yes, McGrady gets penalized a bit unfairly for the whole Grant Hill ordeal, but that’s the way it is. I’m sure fans won’t forgive him for how he left, but that’s the way it is too. I appreciated T-Mac when he was an Orlando player and he certainly had some memorable moments with the franchise (62 points vs. Washington, back-to-back NBA scoring titles, etc.) .. but again, just not enough on the resume to warrant a spot in the rafters.
Everyone else, it’s not really close.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I love your "going through the bad" with Darrell Armstrong is just the slam dunk contest moment
I didn’t even remember it. I still don’t, actually.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Feb 24, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Shaq when he retires?
And in asking, what do you consider to be the requirements for the honor?
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
sorry Erivera, posted my comment just as you posted yours. Please disregard! lol
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
Yes: Nick Anderson, obviously, and Darrel Armstrong. No-brainers, as far as I’m concerned.
No, I’m a stubborn mule: Shaq. However much he may “deserve” it for putting Orlando on the map, he would never see it as an honor or something he should be thankful for. He speaks ill of the organization and I rue the day the VanderWeides and deVoses decide he should be honored amongst such stalwarts as Nick and Darrel. Same with Knee-Mac. No thank you.
In consideration: Penny, despite his player-led revolt. He would appreciate it, I think. He was always one of my favorites and he did so much for the Magic those years after Shaq left. Others include Dennis Scott, Scott Skiles, Otis Smith, and Bo Outlaw, to start.
You read it! You can't unread it!
in reference to 'He would never see it as an honor'...
When asked where he would pick if he could only have his jersey retired in ONE place-
"In a perfect world, I have four teams, I’d be the first guy standing there with all four jerseys, number retired in all four places. It’s not something I really think about. If I had my first wish, it would be here. Because when I first came here, I made the statement I would love to have my name next to Kareem and those greats."
He also has a home here, and had insane aspirations to buy the team. I think he would still consider it an honor. There were just so many sour grapes when he left. He felt low-balled and under appreciated, we as fans felt betrayed.
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
It's a give & take type of deal with Shaq. Both sides were culpable for what happened in the past.
Like I said, I’m personally on the fence. I say yes, but that’s because I don’t really hold a grudge against the Big Fella. Though I definitely can sympathize with those that don’t want his jersey retired.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
I second Penny
and Scott Skiles. Penny was such a great player in his time here and then the foot/ankle/abysmal career that followed. It is an elite honor so you have to reserve it for your teams “HOF.” Dennis Scott would be right up there, but you just can’t retire everyone’s jersey.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
Uni #'s
Retire…..
- Nick Anderson-The orginal Magic player serves as a connection to the early days.
- Shaq-I wonder if Jeremy Richardson phoned Shaq and asked if he could use his jersey? Or did AJ phone Pat Garratty? I harbor lots of hard feelings about how Shaq left, however is career body of work sould get him retired in both Orlando where it started and LA.
#1-McGrady/Hardaway-This is truly a Magic number in Magic history. Standing alone neither Tracy or Penny deserve the honor but with two halves making a whole, and the fact they were the faces of the franchise in the post Shaq era I would retire the number in both their honor.
Just say NO!!!
#10-Darrell Armstrong-Pleeeeeese….a mediocre player on mediocre teams, he got lots of milege out of “heart and hustle” but lets face, “heart and hustle” did not traslate into wins or team success. Nice guy, nice player, but just not worthy of having his number retired.
Pull it down….
- “The Fans”-So lame its laughable
Do no harm!!
Darrell Amstrong wasn't a mediocre player. Check out his years in Orlando.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/armstda01.html
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
His best years (99/00 and 00/01) are roughly in line with what Jameer Nelson does now, except Nelson's a better three-point shooter and Armstrong gets more steals
If Armstrong is mediocre, Nelson isn’t much better… and we know that not to be the case. Armstrong was a great player who means (present tense) a lot to this city and to this team’s identity.
I stick by my statement.....
…well maybe “mediocre” was a bit harsh, but no way Armstrong deserves jersey retirement based on his years in Orlando. Want to call him an all time Magic favorite…..fine.
I got Nick going on based on his unique position with the franchise, the fact he bridges three distinct eras withing the franchise history (pre-Shaq, Shaq era, post-Shaq) but that is a close call.
Comparing Jameer to Armstrong now is not fair to Jameer, his best days are in front of him and if does merit inclusion it will be based in what he does from here on out.
Frankly, it would not bother me if as another poster mentioned Dwight was the first Magic jersey retired (as long as they pull the #6 down before that).
Do no harm!!
I agree Brutalfacts on Darrell Armstrong.
Medicore and doesn’t deserve jersey retirement. To compare him to Jameer isn’t saying much, so far Jameer hasn’t done enough to get his jersey retired.
"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z
Darrell Armstrong isn't mediocre.
I vehemently disagree that D.A. shouldn’t get his jersey retired. He’s done plenty to warrant the honor, in my opinion.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
I like the idea of Penny/TMac half each....its intriuging if anything else...
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
That's a pretty creative way to retire the #1 jersey. I actually wouldn't mind that idea.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Shaq?
Will Shaq go down as one of the best ever? Yes.
Did he help put the Orlando Magic on the map? Sure.
All that’s nice, but it took the Magic years to overcome all the damage Shaq did to the franchise when he bolted. That right there is reason enough not to honor him in such a way.
That’s certainly not to say that the Magic’s front office did everything right in the negotiation process. But who all remembers “Orlando is my first option.” He never intended to stay, and lied to the team and the fans in the process. If he had had the decency to sign earlier in the free agent period, the Magic would have had a chance that summer to sign a pretty good player to try to replace him. By the time Shaq signed though, the other big names were all off the table – such as Dikembe Mutumbo, Tim Hardaway, and Juwan Howard. He didn’t even give the Magic a chance to start recovering.
Irrespective of that, I don’t see how four years with a team constitutes a jersey retirement.
As for the other candidates…
Its unfortunate Nick Anderson will always be remembered for his missed free throws in the finals, but he surely deserves to have his jersey retired.
Armstrong is probably borderline, as he was never a star, but he was certainly the heart and soul of the franchise for several years.
That said, if it turns out that the first jersey the Magic end up retiring is Dwight Howard’s, I won’t be terribly dissapointed. :)
everything that RussL said
He never intended to stay, and lied to the team and the fans in the process. If he had had the decency to sign earlier in the free agent period, the Magic would have had a chance that summer to sign a pretty good player to try to replace him.
Exactly exactly exactly.
You read it! You can't unread it!
by TheGiantSquid on Feb 24, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Darrell Armstrong wasn't a "star", per se, but again, look at his numbers when he was with Orlando.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/armstda01.html
If Nick Anderson is a shoe-in, so is Darrell Armstrong.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Player comparison - Nick Anderson vs. Darrell Armstrong.
The huge thing is that Armstrong played a ton of minutes less than Anderson, but in the end .. both players are comparable statistically.
- Anderson had 10 productive years with the Magic.
- Armstrong had 7 productive years with the Magic.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Both of those guys
represent how I have always looked at the Magic. Good character, good hustle and good players. The ones that don’t fit that (TMac, Stevie Franchise and the ilk) have never been as welcomed in this city as players like Bo, Dennis (until he became a jerk), Scotty Skiles, etc.
I am proud of Orlando….good and bad teams…..because they generally do it with class, character and the “right way”
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
I am sorry.....
….but you lost me there. I am a fan of BASKETBALL and do not care how kids a player has out of wedlock, or if he is of good character, or whatever. If he stays within the laws of the land and helps my team win that is good enough for me.
They do not have to be role models….I will take care of that with my kids. Also “character” is very subjective (look up how and the events surruonding Armstrong in Orlando after his final season).
www.upi.com/Sports_News/2003/07/07/Orlando_guard_Darrell_Armstrong_arrested/UPI-28541057594858/
http://star94fm.com/news/082103armstrong.html
Then you might want to look into the history of the Firestone Nightclub mentioned in one of the articles.
Do no harm!!
you might not care about character and scorn its importance
but I assure you, Orlando and the fans of the Magic do not.
You read it! You can't unread it!
by TheGiantSquid on Feb 24, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
meaning, they do care, very very much
hence why Shaq and Knee-Mac and Ankle-boy are consistently booed when they come to play here.
You read it! You can't unread it!
by TheGiantSquid on Feb 24, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
good character IS important. When you have players like Steve Francis who was very talented who are selfish and poor teammates, they dont make your team any better. Mistakes do not define character. Also, your right I want basketball players as well. Dwight Howard is a good guy, good character and good personality. He is also an EXCELLENT player. Darrell Armstrong was an above average player during his tenure in Orlando, also teamed up with Bo Outlaw to do more for this community than maybe an player to come through O-Town.
There are great guys burried in depth charts, but when it comes to immortilizing them by retiring their numbers…. don’t you wont both?
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
Come on, no one is perfect. That's a weak argument.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
One Concern
One concern I have with the consensus of Darrell Armstrong and Nick Anderson is the fact that neither was ever an all-star. Perhaps that isn’t the best criteria, but Shaq, Penny, and T-Mac all went to 4 all-star games with the Magic. On the other hand, Grant Hill went to 2, and I think its safe to assume he would never merit the slightest consideration for a jersey retirement.
See, that's the thing.
Shaq (4 years), Penny (6 years), and T-Mac (4 years) didn’t stick around long enough. I give Shaq the exception, based on the extreme circumstances but I can’t do the same for either Penny or T-Mac. Their level of accomplishments fail in comparison to Shaq’s, when he was a member of the Magic. Penny is an interesting case because even though he stuck around with the team for a decent amount of time, he only had 5 productive seasons (1997 was an injury-plagued year).
If you look around the league, plenty of teams retire players that (as UNFNOLE said it best) were the team’s HOF, so to speak. Certainly both Anderson & Armstrong fit that bill. Hence their inclusion.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
i think All Star caps are a tough selection criteria...
I think it should be based equally on their on court performance, but also other factors.
Someone like Armstrong, who carried teams without a megastar in a young, struggling, small market franchise. I think something like that needs to be recognized. He’s a player that any Magic fan thinks of and remembers fondly. In tough times, he was the man. Isn’t that what retiring a jersey is about?
Not PPG, or All Star caps, but for their contribution to the team?
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
All-Star selections are subjective. I think that type of accolade should be taken with a grain of salt a bit.
I’ve already listed a criteria that most teams, when they retire jerseys, follow.
Armstrong was an above-average player. Darrell was the heart & soul of the Orlando Magic for years, and he remains a fan favorite. D.A. has won some hardware, so clearly he’s had some accolades.
When you take EVERYTHING into account, Nick Anderson & Darrell Armstrong are shoe-ins.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Even though I was bitter for a long time, I'll go yes on Shaq
Nick Anderson, Darrell Armstrong, Shaq, Penny, and D3; my 5 favorite Magic players of all time (excluding present players). I’d rather not remember the the T-Mac era. To me it’s not about necessarily being a great player as it is being a fan favorite. T-Mac is no question better than Anderson, Penny, D3, and DA but he just reminds me of the fact we wasted all that money on Hill and failed to get Duncan. Anderson and Armstrong brought hustle, Shaq and Penny made the Magic sexy, and I can’t remember D3 ever missing a shot (It just seemed that way when I was a kid) so they deserve the honor imo.
I say Nick Anderson Only..
Know else is deserving..
"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z
Look at the comparison that
ERivera posted and then tell me if you still believe that.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
I do..
One sixth man and most improved shouldn’t get your jersey retired.
"No matter where you go, you are what you are playa"-Jay Z
Zing.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
If Nick Anderson is deserving, so is Darrell Armstrong.
Statistically, they’re nearly identical to each other and when it comes to hardware, D.A. wins 2-0.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Yes to Armstrong, Anderson, Shaq
Look, I’m from San Diego and became a Magic fan because of Shaq. He left in a horrible way, but the business of sports makes it tough sometimes. Actually, I think his situation with the Magic was one of the reasons they re-shaped the salary cap and made it so the original team can keep their players and not go into a bidding war. He was the anchor to an NBA Finals team and immediately put the Magic as a playoff contender.
My biggest reason that Shaq should have his jersey retired by the Magic is because he never had a losing record with the Magic; and for his career. 50 win teams for an expansion team that was not even 10 years old yet. He changed the way expansion teams and the draft was looked at. No losing records for any teams he has been with. You can say whatever about talent being around him, but that is still very impressive.
T-Mac has been a loser and will always be a loser. No way to him. Penny didn’t have enough healthy productive seasons. Maybe Scott Skiles, but that is a huge reach.
Shaq also posted his highest average PPG with the Magic...
27.15 through 4 seasons with the Magic, 26.92 during his time in L.A.
Just sayin….lol
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
Agreed. You and I pretty much have the same outlook.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
What about the
legendary Anthony Bowie? #14. Maybe Joe Wolf? #12 (Maybe we should make Dwight give up that number)
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
If Shaq’s # goes up, so should Penny’s.
Penny was just as important to the Orlando Magic as Shaq; on the court, and off.
He was the total package, and put up some amazing numbers in our championship run. While Shaq’s numbers were good, he was really outplayed by Hakeem in the Finals. The following season, Shaq missed 28 games, and Penny kept the team going. This was the same season we won our franchise best 60 (not bad considering Shaq missed 1/3 of the season). Penny was All-NBA first team twice with the Magic, while Shaq never was. Almost anything Shaq did in Orlando; All-Star, Dream Team, etc…Penny did as well…
This was one of the biggest problems too. Shaq had a huge ego. Not to say that Penny didn’t, but Penny was just as popular, if not more so; especially considering he had the most popular shoe on the market; due to one of the coolest sets of commercials ever. Youtube Lil’ Penny, they’re still a riot to watch!
Add in that Penny played in Orlando 6 seasons, in comparision to Shaq’s 4, and more importantly, didn’t dump a 60 win team after continunously implying that "Orlando was his first option"; and I think Penny has just as much of a right to be up there as Shaq.
I don’t have a favorite. I loved that team. Hell, I have a Shaq rookie jersey on my wall. But if Shaq’s number gets retired, I think Penny’s should be there right next to him.
———
Nick Anderson gets my vote as well.
I also wouldn’t be disappointed if Armstrong’s # was retired as well. Even though the orginal reasons he was kept around was because Shaq liked him and for how hard he pushed Penny in practice…
Judging a player by All-NBA team selections is wrong.
The accuracy & weight of those roster choices are about as good fans voting All-Star starters.
Yes, Penny played 6 seasons but he only had 5 productive years (1997 he was hurt).
To me, Shaq is a maybe. Penny is a no. You make some valid points but .. Shaq outperformed Penny when they were both in Orlando. That’s a fact. They may have achieved similar accolades, but when it comes down to the numbers, Shaq was the superior player.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Just a thought, Erivera or Ben.....
is it possible to post a ranking once the topic simmers down, on whom the 3QC public feels most deserving in order of votes received? Maybe even a simple poll? I’d love to see a clear result to this discussion?
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
I can make something happen, sure.
I think we should let the discussion continue for a few more days, then I can make a post on an off-day and see if the community can come to some type of consensus on the issue at hand.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Fact or opinion...
Okay… Penny had 5 productive years in Orlando. How many did Shaq have?
“Shaq outperformed Penny when they were both in Orlando. That’s a fact.”
Actually, that’s your opinion…
Especially when you consider Penny was All-NBA first team twice in Orlando, and Shaq was never…
I get it that Olajuwon and Robinson kept Shaq from getting that acknowledgment while he was in Orlando.
But it’s not like there was "chump competition" at the guard spot. Here are the names of the players that made the All-NBA teams while Penny was on the first team consecutive seasons.
Jordan, Stockton, Payton, Miller, Drexler, Richmond…
"The accuracy & weight of those roster choices are about as good fans voting All-Star starters."
So the sportswriters and broadcasters who voted Penny on the All-NBA first team thought he was better than he actually was? Did they give him to much credit, and not give Shaq enough? Was Penny more popular than Shaq? Even better, was Olajuwon and Robinson more popular than Shaq?
My opnion is, Penny’s consecutive All-NBA first team selections are not as meaningless as you just made them sound.
Shaq is the most dominate force the NBA has ever seen. Shaq put Orlando on the map, but not into the playoffs. He would have eventually, but the team would have never reached the level they did without Penny. And despite Shaq’s numbers, we didn’t get his best in Orlando; LA got those… As for Penny, he was a complete player; which is why a guy like Lebron James idolized him…
Of course Penny’s career went down, and Shaq’s went up, but as for the years they both spent in Orlando, my opinion remains; Penny’s name should be right there next to Shaq’s.
It’s close but Shaq did out-perform Penny while they played each other.
I never said Penny’s All-NBA 1st Team selections were meaningless but they should be taken with a grain of salt, especially considering the fact that Shaq didn’t get named All-NBA 1st Team during his stint with Orlando. Yes, O’Neal had to contend with The Dream & The Admiral, but certainly Shaq was as good as either player. So even though he may not have been named All-NBA 1st Team in any season while he was with the Magic, I mean .. he basically WAS All-NBA 1st Team caliber regardless.
Agree to disagree. I will concede that Penny deserves consideration. I will say that.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Coolio.
I always thought Shaq was better than The Admiral, but I never thought he was better than The Dream…especially while Shaq was in Orlando. Hakeem schooled Shaq in the NBA Finals, and is arguably the best center to ever play.
There were a couple years there where Darrell WAS this team — well, Darrell, an injury-hampered Penny, and an aging Nick Anderson. (Your guess as to which one contributed most.) And somehow, miraculously, the Magic were one of the best teams in the conference. That in and of itself might not be enough to retire his number, but when you factor in that he was arguably the most exciting player ever to play for the Magic — and not really arguably, either (apologies to Bo Outlaw) — and beloved by the fans, I say you have to retire his number.
As for Shaq, I don’t begrudge him anything. He said from the beginning that he wanted to play in LA, and when he had the chance, he signed with LA. And when he was here, he was… well, probably not as good as Hakeem, but definitely one of the two best centers in the league. And he was huge news — anyone who says Penny and Shaq were equals when they played together probably wasn’t around at the time. Penny was a really good second banana, but he was second banana. Basically, the fact that he became a bigger star elsewhere doesn’t overshadow what a big star he was here.
Penny’s a more difficult case — he did have a couple great seasons, but how much of that was due to Shaq? Then he was never the same after he got injured, but he was still a 15-18 PPG player. Of course, you could argue that he got those points because he was getting all those plays run for him, and a true star would’ve scored more. I mean, I don’t know — I want to say his whining dragged the team down, but the team wasn’t especially dragged down, so I don’t think I can make that argument. I really do not like the guy myself, never did, but I wouldn’t complain if they retired his number.
I would really like to argue for Dennis Scott, but I don’t think the case can be made.
So we’ve got Armstrong, Shaq, definitely Nick, maybe Penny, possibly Danny Schayes?
LOL at Danny Schayes.
Nice.
I love 3D as much as anyone, but I can’t justify retiring his jersey.
To me, the no-brainers are Nick & Darrell. Shaq is a push. Penny is a no.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
I don’t think we’ve had a player that deserves it, yet. To me, jersey requirement should be someone who defines an era and was an outstanding player. Shaq was great, but you can’t have a four year era. Penny? Same deal. Nick Anderson, simply not good enough; the same with Armstrong. T-Mac clearly was good enough but again, one contract is not an era. When I think Magic I don’t see T-Mac.
I’d love to see us be the NBA version of the Penguins in the NHL – they have two retired jerseys, one of a guy who was a star but died in a car accident whilst on the team…and Mario Lemieux. The Penguins do have an honour ring for players who’s significantly contributed to the team, but IMO retiring a jersey should be right up there with HoF as an honour.
Guys like Shaq, Penny and T-Mac – I’m sorry, but they disgraced themselves, the team and the fans with the way they left. It would pain me to see those guys be honoured for desertion. Fair enough, if you aren’t wanted then leave but to engineer a trade to a contender or screw your team in free agency? That’s not face of franchise stuff.
Nick Anderson’s the only guy I’d consider, purely for his service to the team.
But otherwise, until Dwight hits his 15th year, I don’t think there’s anyone in the conversation, frankly.
See, that's the thing. I'm all for being picky, but you can't be TOO picky.
Look around the NBA. There are plenty of squads that retire players who could be considered in the team’s HOF. Granted, there are some franchises that are TOO gracious but for the most part, the majority of organizations have similar parameters for how they go about retiring jerseys.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
I’ve never been a fan of doing something just because everyone else does. I’d much rather be the teeam that gets it right.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 26, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
That's fine. But there are several Magic players that are deserving of the honor.
It’s clear that Orlando wants to do the “retiring jersey” process correct, since the franchise hasn’t immortalized a player in that fashion yet.
However, there are a number of NBA organizations that “get it” and it doesn’t hurt, in my opinion, for the Magic to emulate how those particular teams go about retiring a player’s jersey. It’s not about doing it for the sake of doing it .. it’s about doing it.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Well, I disagree. I don’t think there is any more than maybe one player who is deserving – Nick Anderson, as I said before. I think it’s an honour given out far too easily and far too often, in general, though thankfully not so far by the Magic.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 26, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
I think it’s an honour given out far too easily and far too often, in general, though thankfully not so far by the Magic
In saying that, what are your thoughts on:
A) The Magic retiring #6 for the fans’?
and
B) If #6 was indeed, seriously retired by the team, why teh team was so quick to pull it down again for Patrick Ewing?
The Magic have hardly done the Jersey retirement thing properly at all. If #6 was truly seriously retired, the dicussion should have gone:
Pat- Can i wear 6 since Grant has my #33?
MAGIC- No Pat, sorry but that number is retired. You can’t walk into Chicago and ask is it ok if i wear #23. Same story here.
Case in point- The Magic haven’t done it properly either.
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
Fair point
That’s rubbish too. It’s either retired (which it shouldn’t be) in which case Ewing should have been told to pick another jersey, or it isn’t.
There’s a “soccer” team in Europe somewhere, don’t recall where, which has “retired” jersey 12 for their fans which is just as silly. I actually find it kinda patronising.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 27, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
I have to agree....nobody's # should be retired....
…..been thinking about this and I have decided that I come down on the NO side. Tear the #6 down (instead of rewarding the fans with jersey number how about rewarding them with a championship).
Look at the numbers teams like the Celtics, Lakers and Knicks have retired. Solid lists, lists that not only respect the players involved but the teams themselves. When we can put players like that, players that formed championship teams, or at least contended for championships over severl years then we can talk. Until then, just say no,
Do no harm!!
You can't compare the Magic to the freakin' Celtics, Lakers, and Knicks.
Those teams are rich in history and have been around the block for a minute. That’s not a fair comparison at all when Orlando has only been in existence for 20 years. I understand what you’re trying to get at, but still. That’s not fair.
Every franchise is different and unique in its own right. I think how an organization handles retired jerseys should be comparable to the criteria around the NBA, but ultimately, the decision should be treated on its own merit. Not on the merit of others.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
I think it’s entirely fair.
The Lakers, Celtics or Knicks would never retire the jerseys of guys like Armstrong. Sorry. Wouldn’t happen. I want the Magic to be the best, and I want the guys the Magic retire to be the best. Not good servants. Not nice guys and good community workers.
Guys who are identified with this team. Guys who scream Magic. They don’t have to have the talent of Larry Bird, but it would be nice if they’re seen of in relationship to this team in the way that Bird is to the Celtics.
by eltharion_doa on Feb 28, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, but once again, gotta agree with erivera.
simply can’t compare the Magic with the C’s, Knicks or Lakers.
Looking around at the teams that have been around (ballpark) as long as the Magic
- Hornets: Pete Maravich (Never played for Hornets, but did for N.O. Jazz) and Bobby Phills (Motor vehicle accident victim)
- Heat: Jordan, Marino (Jokes if you ask me) and very soon to be Alonzo Mourning.
- T’Wolves: Malik Sealy (Motor vehicle accident victim) KG will also likely go up when done.
So of the above teams, (counting Zo and KG when his goes up) you have 2 numbers that were retired for ‘genuine contributions’ to that franchise.
Following the same pattern as our 20yo brother clubs, it would be perfectly acceptable to have ONE jersey hanging in Orlando by now (not counting #6).
KG served with the Wolves for 12 years and at best took his franchise to the West Finals.
Zo served with the Heat for 9 and aided in a Championship in Miami.
MY POINT- Both guys (assuming KG’s #21 goes up in the target center when he is done) served decent time, and were the face of the franchise through good and bad years. When i ask myself what ONE Magic player can you say that about? Nick Anderson is the only option and true candidate.
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
Right.
I will state, in Shaq’s defense, that he should have his jersey retired too.
There’s certainly precedence for a player of O’Neal’s caliber (in which he only played 4 seasons for the Magic) have their jersey number retired, despite playing a modest amount of years with a team.
Charles Barkley with the Suns: 1992-1996 (accomplished similar team goals .. led Phoenix to its first 60-win season in franchise history in 1993, had an NBA Finals appearance that same year, etc.)
Wilt Chamberlain with the Sixers: 1965-1968 (did win a Title)
I can go on. Again, I can sympathize with those that don’t want to honor Shaq, but I can make a pretty convincing case (in my opinion) for why O’Neal should ultimately get that piece of immortality.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
i didn't mention Shaq because i fugured the same sorta thing.
That when said and done, the Magic, Lakers and Heat all have grounds to retire his jersey as one of those ‘Once in a lifetime’ caliber players…… The Suns? not so much….
Bleeding Blue and Silver for 20 of my 23 years.
I would agree.
Former Senior Writer for DePaul's Scout.com website
I bomb atomically/Socrates' philosophies and hypothesis can't define how I be droppin these/mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery - Inspectah Deck
Penny absolutely should get his number retired.
and next to it in the rafters, a smaller 1/2 banner hangs for lil Penny!
No but seriously, Penny deserves it, he will always be remember for his days in Orlando, and he was a damn fine player.
"Brian (Outlaw is Rejector) is now on the fan saying he put this on to see what would happen " - 123_G.O._RipCity
by Outlaw is Rejector on Mar 22, 2009 1:54 AM EDT reply actions
Penny was a special player in his prime, no doubt about that.
This is my end and my new beginning Nostalgia/Alpha and Omega places, it's like a glitch in the matrix/I seen it at all, did it all, most of y'all been pop for a minute/Spitters, sinners and the game get rid of y'all/Y'all got there but y'all didn't get it all, I want my style back/Hate to cease y'all plan it's the rap repo-man - Nas
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