Off-Day Open Thread: Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic Teammates Unhappy with Other Teams for Fouling Howard Hard
by Evan Dunlap on Dec 15, 2009 2:48 PM EST
in Off-Day Open Thread
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PrintOrlando Magic center Dwight Howard's frustration about other teams' constantly hammering him under the basket reached a boiling point in last night's win over the Indiana Pacers. Late in the third quarter, Howard got free underneath on the break. Before he could go up for a dunk, Pacers forward Troy Murphy came up from behind Howard and brought both his arms down hard around his neck and shoulders, preventing Howard from getting a shot off. Howard tried to push Murphy in retaliation as he attempted to untangle himself, which earned him a technical foul; Pacers coach Jim O'Brien unsuccessfully argued that Howard threw a punch and should have been ejected. Head official Ken Mauer ensured the Pacers would not get a free throw out of the bargain by escalating the call to a double-technical on both players, rather than just a technical on Howard.
This skirmish has set off a debate about the ethics of hard fouls, about which you can read on OrlandoMagic.com, the Orlando Sentinel, and NBA FanHouse. One side holds that Howard gets hammered far too often, and in unseemly ways; the other believes that Howard does his own fair share of bullying, and that fouling Howard hard is the only way to prevent him from scoring in certain situations. Murphy's hack indeed prevented Howard from getting a shot up, and was far more effective in stopping a score than, say Solomon Jones' weak attempt at the 3:26 mark of the second quarter, when he needlessly slapped Howard on the arm after he had dunked.
Where do you stand on this issue? Is it fair for NBA teams to base an entire strategy on "fouling the hell out of Dwight Howard," as O'Brien described it after the game? At which point does this strategy cross the line? What can the NBA do to address the problem, if anything?
For the record, we'll note that fouling Howard appears to be paying off so far. He's connected on 58.4% of his foul shots this season, the worst mark of his 6-year career. Basketball purists might suggest that Howard improve that figure in order to discourage intentional fouls, rather than complaining about the rough treatment he receives.
UPDATE: Justice appears to have prevailed in this case--depending on your allegiances--as the NBA rescinded Howard's technical foul and upgraded Murphy's technical foul to a flagrant-1.
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Well we won the battle in this one.
Although after-the-fact. John Denton reported that the league rescinded Dwight’s technical and upgrade Murphy’s foul to a flagrant 1.
Obviously, being a Magic fan, I believe that what Dwight receives is excessive. I felt the same way about the way Shaq was fouled throughout his career. I honestly there are dozens of fouls that Dwight receives over the course of the season that would be flagrants if he wasn’t as big and strong as he is. I know if Kobe or Chris Paul was fouled like that last night, it would’ve been a flagrant.
http://www.nba.com/magic/news/upon_further_review_121509.html
There’s the link.
But to play devil's advocate, Kobe Bryant or Chris Paul aren't as big and strong as Dwight Howard.
Granted, I’d argue that LeBron James IS as big and strong but receives different treatment because he’s a perimeter player. One has to take into account what the hand checking rule has meant to the NBA.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
one opposing fans perspective
flagrant vs. not flagrant does not bother me. Dwight is so strong most opposing players have to foul him really hard or else people like me are calling it a “bad foul” when Dwight gets an easy “and 1.” If someone is going for the ball is some way, you can’t help that they swing a little harder against Howard.
Where the real gripe lies is the no calls. Contact that would send some guys flying does not move Dwight, but that does not mean they are not fouls.
Complaining about getting fouled even when the refs call the foul though, well that just sounds whinny. Go hit your free throws.
Where your argument fails...
Is that they have to hit him so hard that it would be a flagrant on most other players. This goes back to what Stan Van Gundy said a few weeks ago, that Dwight is penalized just because he’s stronger than other players. He still takes a beating in there, or has players flopping against him every single game. In most games, at least one of those flops are called as an offensive foul.
It’s perfectly fine to talk about these fouls as being excessive, especially when this kind of contact from guys who are 240+ athletes are karate chopping above your shoulders. If you can’t keep the dude from getting up a shot by wrapping up his arms, then go hit the gym. Dwight put in his work, time for Jeff Foster and Zaza Pachulia and all the other scrub big men who like to think that they’re “physical” to do the same.
my counter argument would be that if you are going for the ball
and the player is not in a vulnerable position, you can foul as hard as you want. that is totally legal. if guys are pulling him down from the shoulders or hitting his head first, then yes that should be flagrant every time, but a hard foul across the arms is normal. Are other players suppose to feel bad that Dwight is in position to get fouled more than most?
plus, your argument is then what? until Zaza gets stronger just let Dwight Howard score at will?
It is totally legal to hit the arms.
Which is what I just said. If the player is not strong enough to keep Dwight from getting a shot off even when he’s hitting his arms, if he feels like he has to pull him down by his shoulders like it’s football, then yes, get stronger. As I said, Dwight put in his work, so if players like Troy Murphy and Jeff Foster feel like they have to do that, then there needs to be flagrants called so Dwight can use his strengths to his advantage like he should be allowed to.
Having opposing players complain about Dwight’s physicality is like Anthony Johnson complaining about Chris Paul’s speed. The only difference is the league has put in rules that ensure Chris Paul can use his advantage, while Dwight gets punished for having his advantage.
Follow-up Point.
Until the league fixes this, it’ll only continue to help the disappearance of the physical big man in the NBA that’s been going on for several years. The NBA has a fixation on the flashy, small quick guards and most big men nowadays are perimeter players or guys who really don’t bring anything except for their size.
And that's what Stern is trying to do...
make the strong, lumbering big-man disappear. slowing the game down with back to the basket post-play isnt what he’s after. he wants speedy, flashy PG’s, SG’s, SF’s…hell, even quick PF’s i.e. Bosh and Amare flying around the court making plays. It’s lame, but its what its coming to. Notice players like Cole Aldrich (not comparable to dwight of course) falling down the draft board because teams are now after more mobile big-men. Stern changed the rules to reflect a more perimeter-oriented game, and this is what we’re going to get whether we like it or not.
Correct, the hand-checking rule has made the NBA a more perimeter-oriented league.
Which is fine, but players like Howard, Oden, and others are becoming rare commodities.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Hard fouls are OK
its the dangerous ones that should be looked at closely. Anytime a guy is in the air and someone intentionally fouls him, that should be flagrant. Anything around the neck/head should be called a flagrant also.
I do think Howard will snap 1 game this year tho. There is only so much a man can take. Even Shaq threw a haymaker to Brad Miller back in the day.
God, I hope Dwight smacks Scalabrine though. Nocioni too.
"It's all part of the plan." Jeff Moorad and The Joker in the Dark Knight.
"Dwight Howard couldn't score 40 points in a game if he was going against Yi Jianlian's chair." Bill Simmons chat 5/20
"I don't feel this team can beat us four times," Mo Williams 5/21
Agreed.
Howard is a big boy, he can take the hits to the body but it’s the ones to the head/neck area that are dangerous. I have no problems with a clean, hard foul but Dwight has received some excessive ones.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
If it's intentional above the shoulders
Then it should be flagrant.
If it is clear the player is not making a play on the ball, I consider it an unnecessary foul
Therefore, it should be a flagrant 1 – two free throws and possession. Most haven’t seemed truly excessive (with some exceptions), which is the delineating factor between flagrant 1 and flagrant 2. Murph’s foul was (in my opinion) a flagrant 1 – he wasn’t making a play at the ball, and the contact was not necessary, but he wasn’t doing something that had a real chance of causing injury.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Here is what the NBA has to offer on what the terms "unnecessary" and "excessive" mean, in connection with flagrant fouls:
“Flagrant Fouls:
These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant foul, 1 and 2. A flagrant foul 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player winds-up and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 has the components of a flagrant foul 1 and is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a wind-up motion, hard contact and a follow through.”
To me, this should settle the debate. Anytime Dwight is fouled hard and then tugged or pulled back afterwards, that’s a Flagrant 1. Murphy did just that and it was an obvious Flagrant 1, as the NBA acknowledged today.
According to the rule book, it makes no difference whether Dwight can withstand the force of a hard foul or not. That is not a factor. Also, according to the rule book, it’s not a factor whether the hard foul is above the shoulders.
Anyone who watches the Magic knows that Dwight is routinely fouled hard and then tugged back but never receives a Flagrant 1 call. The problem isn’t the rule, it’s the refs. They need to start enforcing the rule as written.
You nailed it with your last paragraph.
The flagrant foul rule needs to be enforced more strictly, not only for Howard, but for everyone.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
i say everyone needs to man up.
dwight needs to put his fist in some ones mouth and leave some teeth on the court.take his games off and next time some one fouls him the way he dont like do it again. ps dwight will NEVER shoot free throws well.if hes lucky he has a season or two shooting 65% from the line. but i dont think so it is what it is. hes a 60% free throw shooter and always will be. that dont change the fact he is still the best big man in the nba.
Violence is never the answer.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I think of bigger debate is the foul rate and “game flow validity of fouls” for Dwight. In the playoffs, Dwight doesn’t care for the fouls on him. But he has to sit if there’s two fouls on him and there goes the biggest factor of the game..
by derekk on Dec 15, 2009 2:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Enforcer -- a good way to give Brandon Bass playing time?
This is how they would handle it in the old days. Just like McHale recently stated about LeBron’s dancing. If we’re not going to play Bass, then use him (or Gortat) to put someone on their butt on the other team. Frankly, Gortat could use the street cred.
Or Dwight could develop Paul Pierce’s left-foot-to-the-defender’s-crotch-dunk and use it a few times.
And, yeah, I know it is a bad example to the kids, etc. etc. But so the the flagrant fouling against larger opponents. Just sayin’ this is how it used to be handled in most pro sports.
BTW, every time Dwight takes a swing, he reinforces the idea that Hack-a-Dwight is a good way to get him riled up enough for an ejection. I so respect D12 for the number of times he keeps his composure.
Seems I'm not the only one with this thought
by magicfaninTN on Dec 15, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I completely disagree with the guy that wrote that article.
I’ve always thought the whole ‘enforcer’ thing in the NBA was so overblown. Sure teams can play physical or not, but this isn’t hockey. There are never guys in the NBA who are sent in to ‘enforce’ some unwritten code among the players. Horace Grant never did that, neither did AC Green or Samaki Walker. And That’s a joke to say he had any part in allowing Shaq to flourish.
You could argue the Magic need to play more physical, but I wouldn’t put that at the top of the list of things the team should improve on. Turnovers, consistent effort, and defense from the pg position would seem to me to be more important right now. Dwight does a good enough job by himself of muscling people around.
Charles Oakley and Otis Thorpe made their living as "enforcers"
Go ask Ewing and Hakeem
Never trust a fart
by AB's triple double on Dec 15, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
No, they made their living rebounding, defending, and shooting well.
Their roles were never to go into games and take someone out. They were much more than that.
You should check youtube for any Knick or Rockets fights in the 90's
See who was in the middle of it.
And if you don’t think Haslem was the enforcer for the Heat when Shaq was there, then who flipped Nocionni over when he flagrant fouled Wade?
Never trust a fart
by AB's triple double on Dec 15, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure what being involved in fights is supposed to show.
The Magic should get someone who will start more fights? I don’t see that as a coherent strategy.
But if the Magic send in Bass or Gortat to fight people who foul Dwight hard, teams aren’t going to suddenly abandon the strategy of sending Dwight to the line. In your scenario, Gortat comes in, starts a fight, gets thrown out . . . and then what? Jim O’Brien says to Jeff Foster quit fouling Dwight Howard because that was a stand up move by Gortat and the Magic obviously have his back? Come on . . .
What will stop the hard fouls are the refs enforcing the flagrant foul rules. What will stop the fouls in general is Dwight hitting free throws. Again, there really aren’t many good examples of guys in the NBA who have been sent in to games to take someone out.
The problems still stands that Dwight isn't getting the flagrants called because of his size relative to a smaller player.
What would flatten Dwyane Wade, Dwight can shrug off. The same thing happened to Shaq for most of his career, and he’s even larger. I think it’s just something he’s going to have to deal with, and if he cracks a head or two along the way in retaliation, I have no problem with it.
"I guess killing will have to be fun enough"-Homer J. Simpson
But the rule doesn't make any distinction between whether a player can shrug off a flagrant or not.
Dwight gets fouled hard and subsequently tugged on every game. If refs aren’t calling those plays flagrants because Dwight can take it, that’s bad reffing because the rules don’t provide for that sort of discretion.
I don't disagree with that.
What I’m saying is that because Dwight is a very big guy, that contact isn’t going to look as bad, so the refs won’t call it as a flagrant, because it doesn’t look like one for him.
"I guess killing will have to be fun enough"-Homer J. Simpson
I think that's the crux of the problem.
The subjectivity embedded in a flagrant foul being called.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Haven't once thought for a second, 'Man, if we only had Courtney Lee'?
Besides, we have Redick. What’s the difference at this point?
Lee's a bit quicker, JJ's better on offense
I’d actually rather have JJ at this point. He’s only sixteen months older, and he’s shown signs of development. JJ’s also a smarter ballhandler/passer – roughly a 2.67:1 Ast:TO ration, to Lee’s 1:1 ratio.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Not much, really.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Punch
If Dwight would’ve thrown a punch we would have known he tried to throw a punch. Someday I hope to see it. I think it will make other players more scared of him and in turn help out his game.
Anybody who says they want to see Dwight punch another player is certifably nuts.
Not only would that solve nothing and get him suspended, it’s something I never want to see as a fan.
Again, violence is never the answer.
To want to see Howard throw a punch is, to be frank, a stupid idea.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
This is the NBA not the NHL or the NFL
If the sport calls for hard hitting you must let them wear padding. This has never been the case, when Shaq was in his prime. the league let it go. But they really didn’t have a realistic approach toward the whole problem. It’s about stopping the ball. When Dwight play’s against Yaw Ming. Yaw doesn’t do the hack strategy. Teams have to defend people like Dwight in an appropriate way. Get a taller quicker player. Or get someone that is stronger. The game is still about getting the ball in the hole. Not about wrestling defenses. The NBA is blowing this up. Someone is trying to appeal to the fans that want to see more rough stuff. That justs creates more problems. I would rather see higher scoring games then the wrestling moves
The scoring in the NBA has increased, thanks to the enforcement of hand-checking.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Catch-22
Howard CAN’T increase his FT percentage. Take this challenge: shoot some free throws. See how well you do. Then do fifty push-ups and do it again. You’ll do worse. Nobody has this problem except big men under the basket with 2 or 3 guys hanging on their arms and beating them down with their bodies.
Seconds later, with his arm muscles still in full combat-mode, he has to shoot free throws. With a nice floating arc. It’s not a reasonable request. The fouls on Howard need to be treated like fouls on Kobe and Lebron. Right now, we have two sets of rules, and Howard and the Magic are being cheated.
And don’t give me any of that “Howard does his own share of bruising”. He’s been rung up many, many times this year (almost always has 2 fouls halfway through the first quarter).
Also, we need a technical foul for floppers. It’s not honest play. If you’re not good enough to guard the guy, becoming an actor should not be an option in the NBA.
I remember when David Stern was supposed to address the flopping in the NBA but didn't do it.
Or maybe he did and I didn’t notice.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Man up.
Refs are the Rulers.
You can only control your temper and your FT%
Stick to that.
Someone said to knock a fool out.
I say Andrew Bynum
"Memphis then used a pick-and-roll to get Conley free and he drove past Shaquille O'Neal for the go-ahead layup."
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