Poll: Who Should Be the Orlando Magic's Fifth Starter?
Imagine for a second that every Orlando Magic player is healthy and eligible to play. It's hard to imagine, given how the season has gone so far, but just bear with me. The ankles of Ryan Anderson and Vince Carter have healed, Rashard Lewis' suspension has run out, Adonal Foyle's knee has recovered, and nobody has the flu.
Now that you've entered this wonderful fantasy land, ask yourself this question:
Who starts?
You have four givens: Anderson, Carter, Lewis, Jameer Nelson, and Dwight Howard, the team's recent All-Stars. The fifth spot, however, is up for grabs. The contenders are either Matt Barnes or Mickael Pietrus at small forward, J.J. Redick at shooting guard, and either Anderson or Brandon Bass at power forward. Here's how these lineups would look, respectively:
Nelson / Carter / Barnes / Lewis / Howard
Nelson / Carter / Pietrus / Lewis / Howard
Nelson / Redick / Carter / Lewis / Howard
Nelson / Carter / Lewis / Anderson / Howard
Nelson / Carter / Lewis / Bass / Howard
Again, given the choice of starting any of these five lineups, which would you pick? The first two appeared to be the most likely ones when the season started, but Redick (13.3 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists per game) and Anderson (15 points and 5 rebounds per game) have played their way into the conversation so far this year. And although Bass (9.4 points, 3.1 rebounds per game) has yet to dazzle in a Magic uniform, many mainstream media figures pencilled him in as the starting power forward once the Magic made him their highest-paid free-agent acquisition this summer.
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Matt Barnes at small forward
Why? He is a great glue guy; he does all the little things. The other 4 starters can more than handle the offensive load, so complimenting that with a player that does not need to shoot to be effective is a nice fit.
The next most interesting option is moving Lewis to the 3 and starting Anderson. We would have 4 very accurate 3 point shooters around Dwight, and an Anderson/Lewis pairing would be a better rebounding pairing than a Barnes/Lewis pairing. The reason I say this is because with Lewis’ size he would be expected to have a rebounding advantage over most other 3s, and Anderson is a better rebounder at the 4 than is Lewis.
I worry about the defense of an Anderson/Lewis pairing though, so I go with Barnes/Lewis.
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
I agree, Barnes is the perfect glue guy so far.
He does all the little things well, and adds “grit” to a lineup of All-Stars.
by thermodynamic on Nov 9, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
But he has shown a propensity for playing above his limits
like Pietrus, which I don’t know I would like in the starting lineup.
I think his positive contributions have far outweighed his negative ones so far.
And I think the idea is that once the team is completely healthy (and suspension-free) they’ll be playing less minutes at the 2 and 4, and splitting the minutes at 3, letting them be as energetic and efficient as possible.
by thermodynamic on Nov 9, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I know everyone is loving Anderson...
But I agreee with those that would rather have him in the second unit. We need some firepower coming off the bench. Placing all your main guns in the starting unit really doesn’t make sense to me. Plus if he’s placed at the 4 and Lewis at the 3 then that would mean either Peaches or Barnes will be riding the bench. Interchange Lewis if you want since he has experience at the three sub in Peaches at the two and sub in Anderson from time to time if you want that look, but to start him…I’d rather him come in when the defense is becoming winded.
The starting lineup is never about playing the five best players.
It never works that way, it’s about finding a combination that plays well together.
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"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
As much as I like Anderson, we need him in the second unit.
If there’s one thing this team is missing, it’s a reliable scorer off the bench. If you don’t have a reliable scorer off the bench, you end up with Redick taking a bunch of shots (this is a good idea sometimes) or Pietrus taking a bunch of shots (only Pietrus thinks this is a good idea). Barnes defends, passes, and rebounds — stick him at SF and be done with it.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
between redick, barnes, pietrus and gortat (with whit-eboy distributing)
there are plenty of ‘reliable’ shots to be taken. I don’t buy the argument.
Redick is a 40% shooter.
Pietrus is a 40% shooter.
Barnes is a 43% shooter.
Gortat is a 50+% shooter… on dunks and put-backs.
They all have their place — but “focus of the offense” isn’t that place.
(Now, mind you, I’m assuming Ryan continues to look the way he’s looked this season with Orlando. If he reverts to his rookie form, he’s another 40% shooter. But that’s a complication we’ll deal with if/when it comes…)
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
To best put it, they're shooters, not creators.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
J-Will can create though
I am the world's best basketball player! *
* Among those with no skills whatsoever
Agreed
Keep pumpin, ain't worried bout nuttin
Busters thought we was frontin, so reload and keep dumpin
Keep Sleeping on Orlando...
agreed to 3.3 seconds
Keep pumpin, ain't worried bout nuttin
Busters thought we was frontin, so reload and keep dumpin
Keep Sleeping on Orlando...
Orlando can't afford to start Rashard Lewis ANYWHERE but power forward.
The most important thing you need off the bench, in my opinion, is scoring and that’s exactly what Ryan Anderson brings to the table. Stan Van Gundy needs someone in the second unit that can make plays when the first unit isn’t in the game. Plus, it allows the Magic to continue to play its style offensively (4-out/1-in) for the majority of the time. Likewise, the Magic need Rashard at the four to help get the defense to where it needs to be. Putting Lewis at the three would be a mistake, defensively, because he isn’t a good defender there.
In my opinion, either Barnes or Pietrus are best starting at small forward.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
My top 3 lineups are:
1. Nelson / Carter / Barnes / Lewis / Howard
Barnes has played very well these past 7 games, and shown his true strengths. He is a tweener, but this allows him to play and guard multiple positions. He is quick enough, and has good hands to guard 2/3’s, but is long enough to guard certain 4’s like Durant.
His best assets, however, are an undying energy, great hands, and a high IQ. In SVG’s system this allows him to be a good passer and really keep the offense moving without needing the ball himself. He also makes lots of hustle plays and tends to get his hands on a lot of loose balls. And he can still stretch the floor with his 3 shot. I think when you have 4 All-Stars who can score profusely, you need a good facilitator and someone who will do the dirty work on the defensive end… and that person is Matt.
Peaches is also a good defender and a better scorer, but his energy seems more limited and he needs the ball more. That’s why I think he’s better off the bench when 1 or more primary scorers take a breather.
2. Nelson / Redick / Carter / Lewis / Howard
This a stretch the floor type lineup that really messes with opposing defenses while still keeping Lewis at his best position at PF. Although Redick’s shot still hasn’t improved to Duke status, he’s much improved in this area. He’s also transformed his game so he’s not just a one-dimensional shooter (who missed shots) anymore. With his improved ball handling ability, persistent effort on defense, and better court vision (still wished he passed to bigs better), the team can be comfortable with him starting and playing big minutes. I’m also afraid that he’s the type of player where not playing him big minutes will cause him to be more a detriment. He needs to put up a few shots and drive around the perimeter to open his game up, and he needs minutes for that.
I’m not saying that his needs above the Magic’s. What I’m saying that playing him few minutes may be worse than not playing him at all, and playing him big minutes will net much better results than either of those. And whether or not he can make his shots, he’s sheer reputation and ability to do so forces opposing teams to guard him, which strengthens Orlando’s 4-out/1-in strategy.
There is some loss in shooting guard depth, but I’m fine with Peaches backing up the 2, with Barnes manning the backup 3.
3. Nelson / Carter / Lewis / Anderson / Howard
And finally, the most potent 4-out/1-in starting lineup in the NBA. Offensively, this lineup will strike fear into opposing defense, especially those with traditional 4’s. Ryan is a top 3 three-point shooter on this team, and that’s saying a lot considering the other 2 are Jameer and Lewis. Put them all together on the floor and you have the deadliest perimeter with Dwight having a field day of who he wants to pass to.
Even though 5.5 games we’ve seen opposing teams fail to close out on Ryan and he’s made them pay big time. If you start him along Rashard, it’ll open up the lanes even more for Meer and Carter and make defenders think 4 times before doubling Howard (which they still will have to do). As a plus, Ryan has shown he’s more than a spot up shooter. Although his finishing ability is weak off the drive, he CAN drive and draw fouls, and he’s also a great rebounder, especially on the offensive end, where he is a strong finisher. In this way, he brings an added dimension to the Orlando offense/defense that was not in place before.
The reason why I have this below the lineup with Redick at the 2, is my reservations of Lewis playing the 3. It’s been shown on this blog many times that Lewis plays best at the 4, offensively and defensively. Although successful at the 3 in Seattle, he loses a lot of his danger from the perimeter with opposing SFs guarding him.
Also, Ryan’s defensively ability still needs some work, even guarding the 4 position. Combining that with Lewis’s diminishing defense against SFs, and it becomes a problem. Still, I wouldn’t mind seeing this lineup when SVG really wants to punish teams that have trouble defending the perimeter.
Vote went to Barnesy
Keep pumpin, ain't worried bout nuttin
Busters thought we was frontin, so reload and keep dumpin
Keep Sleeping on Orlando...
We need defense badly and MP is the best defender. His 3pnt % is 38 and he doesn’t shoot too much when with the starters. Although I maybe would like MP as a 6th Man and I do think Barnes makes a great fit as the glue guy in the starting unit, SVG will want to put the pedal to the metal in the defensive departments playing the starters a consistent 32+ mins at first and focus on defense. MP is his best wing defender.
by derekk on Nov 9, 2009 3:51 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Vote to Barnes
Peaches would be my second choice. I think Pietrus plays better off the bench, and I’d see Barnes and Pietrus splitting minutes pretty evenly, so both would get plenty of time against a starting wing. Barnes is a little more of a gambler on defense, and his full-bore assault at the beginning of the game can disrupt a player’s rhythm before he gets going.
I don’t want Anderson as a starter once Lewis is back. He still needs more work on the defensive side of the ball, and with Redick becoming a more balanced player, having Anderson out there as a sniper with the second unit alongside Gortat or Bass at the 5 (depending on opposing matchups, yada yada yada) seems the best option to me.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Tonight?
I don’t think the Magic will play till Tuesday, and on the Sentinel they say the Magic are liking their chances that he plays.
by thermodynamic on Nov 9, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Probably.
Carter has had a week off so that should have given him ample time to recover from his injury. Given that Orlando is desperate for a healthy body or two, I suspect he’ll play tomorrow against Charlotte.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
I think if Barnes started he would be at 8 rpg we need rebounders out there, Pietrus cat hit FT is a poor rebounder, doesn’t pass the ball yet he’s a turnover machine, I wouldn’t put Pietrus in the game unless we are having trouble stopping someone.
I know what Bo dont know.
by D-RAK on Nov 9, 2009 5:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Barnes has more than 2 TOs than MP in 1 less minute of playtime. Barnes has played some 4 while Pietrus hasn’t. MP is shooting the 3 ball 14% better than Barnes. And if we could give a on the ball defense number 1 out of 10 with 10 being the best, I would give MP a 7 with past playoff and season performances of 10 so we kno MP can be that, and Id give Barnes a 3. And if I asked SVG about it, he would say that JJ is a better defender than Barnes right now. Oh wait, he actually did say that..
by derekk on Nov 9, 2009 5:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Barnes turnovers are playmaking turnovers (picked off passes)where as Pietrus’s are all him just being stupid( traveling stepping out of bounds) I think given some time Barnes will be as good as defender as Pietrus in this system. Pietrus is off to a good start but he’s histroricly a streaky shooter too.
I know what Bo dont know.
by D-RAK on Nov 9, 2009 6:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This opens up an interesting debate.. Would you rather have 2.6 assists and 2.7 turnovers, or .9 assists and 1.1 turnovers? I simply assume more turnovers is worse, But! I do think over time, Barnes can work on lowering them and keeping the assists same or up.
I think given what Ive read before about Barnes, he will never be as close as good a defender as Pietrus. I’ve seen some flashes, but nothing as consistent or as high level as MP’s defense, particularly on the ball defense. Barnes seems to like to gamble more, MP just stays with them and tires them out and forces them into contested shots. Its more suited when Dwight is covering him incase he passes by for a drive. This is obviously a very underrated and immeasurable argument. But I can’t get out of mind the kind of level defense MP as done at many times in the season, and then rather consistently in the playoffs.
You can call MP’s shooting as streaky as you want, but he has better 3pnt % historically and currently than Barnes, and is almost identical to shot attempts as Barnes right now. MP has also been attacking the rim more this season Im noticing, which is something we want because he has alot of athleticism and it can usually turn into atleast some FT’s.
I just think we’re really underrating MP here again. I mean, we all fell in love with Clee, but it was MP who took a comfortable major minutes over Clee in the playoffs. Ultimately, I won’t make my mind until I see MB and MP perform in the playoffs, and who SVG trusts to give the most minutes to. I think you’re really underrating the kind of defense MP brings and I wouldnt be surprised, if only for a transition, if MP starts so they have more defensive punch. I also don’t see MP launching as much with the starters.
Re: Pietrus' lack of passing
It’s not so much assists vs. turnovers. I’m not saying Pietrus has to create. What I’m saying is, when the ball goes to Pietrus, the offense stops dead. More often than not, Pietrus will run an isolation or just chuck the ball rather than make the pass. And that has repercussions beyond the possessions that end with Pietrus either attempting the shot or turning the ball over.
The Magic’s offense, probably even more than most offenses, is dependent on passing the ball around until an open man develops. If you can’t pass the ball to Pietrus and expect him to keep passing it until the right look develops, you’re playing a 4-man game out there. (Or at best a 4 and a half-man game.) And that affects ALL the possessions. It’s a bigger problem than one or two passes ending up in the stands.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
This is abit overblown.. And we’re talking about the most efficiently offensive team in the league too that desperately needs to gain defensive efficiency near the top. MP does not Always do that at all, he passes around just fine, just doesn’t go for an assist pass, usually a safer pass or a back to the top pass. And once again, MP has like the 6th or 7th highest volume shooter in the team only, all at a 38% 3 clip. These little debates are very intriguing tho to keep up with and I enjoy having them. Luckily SVG plays MP near 30 a night too so we’ll always get to complain and talk about it all the time hehe.
by derekk on Nov 10, 2009 9:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have to go with Barnes here.
Putting Anderson in the starting lineup leaves Williams, Redick, Pietrus, Bass, and Gortat. That’s streaky shooter, streaky shooter, streaky shooter, reasonably consistent shooter w/ limited range, and a garbageman. Barnes’d be somewhere in there too. That offense would be ugly.
Move Anderson to the bench, start Barnes, and at least you have Anderson’s shooting in your back pocket.
Third Quarter Collapse: An Orlando Magic blog at SB Nation | Brandon Bass: "I just play hard."
One more note...
…about Pietrus. Pietrus is MASSIVELY streaky. He also never passes the ball… over his career, he’s averaged an assist every 24.2 minutes. (!)
Despite all that, Pietrus can be useful, a) because of his defense, and b) because he does get hot fairly frequently. Every so often, Pietrus will have a month where he averages 50% from the field.
But I feel you almost have to treat Pietrus like two players. You have the Pietrus we saw during the pre-season/last year’s playoffs/November ‘08, who absolutely can be a focus of the offense. And you have the Pietrus we’re seeing right now: an offensive black hole who can and will shoot the team out of games.
Not saying we can’t play offensive black hole Pietrus. We have to, of course. (Maybe not as much, if everyone’s healthy?) Just saying we need to keep the ball out of his hands to an extent on offense, because we all know that when it leaves his hands, its next destination is nott to another player. It’s probably off the side of the rim. I’m not sure Williams knows that yet, which kind of compounds the problem… but putting a guy like Ryan in there gives everyone an excellent excuse to limit Pietrus’ touches.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
Or, of course, you could start him...
I think even Pietrus could look around at Dwight, Shard, Vince and Jameer and realize that he’s not the first option in that scenario. :)
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
I said JJ.
Don’t shoot me!
Hear me out on this. While JJ may be one of the weaker options of the fifth man options offensively, his ball handling and defense are much improved. We simply don’t NEED to have another hot scorer on the floor when the starting four are out there, its almost a waste.
Anderson and Bass would both be good options for sure – and I imagine we’ll see that lineup on the floor at times with Lewis at the 3… but Lewis hasn’t shown that he can defend the 3 nearly as well as he can defend the 4, and thats a problem. Add that to the fact that Anderson’s defense is somewhat weak, and you have a lineup that just isn’t viable, no matter how fantastic it looks offensively. Going back to Bass, running with him as a starter may well be viable against the more physical teams, but we haven’t seen it yet, so I just don’t see it happening.
Barnes – I don’t trust his decision making. Maybe putting him in the starting lineup could mask that to a degree… but the fact is, he tries to do too much in my opinion. He takes tough shots when he shouldnt, stuff like that.
The same can be said for MP, to a lesser extent. And he just seems like a 6th man type, especially after what he was able to do late last season, and the playoffs.
Back to JJ. One thing we’ve learned about him is that he seems to be a player that really needs to get into the rhythm of a game to be at his best. Can’t really do that from the bench. If we want to make the most of him, he has to start.
So thats my pick. ;)
But Vince at SF?
I’m not comfortable endorsing Vince out of position at the 3, especially when it’s not needed. At the moment, I trust JJ more than Pietrus and about as much as Barnes… but that, to me, is an argument for why I want him coming off the bench. I feel like we have more depth at the 3 than we do at the 2… shifting our starting SG to SF exacerbates that problem.
He's currently two-thirds man, one-third amazing. Which, let's face it, is still a pretty good ratio.
As good as Ryan Anderson's been playing, I don't think him and Shard would work defensively.
I’m voting for Barnes at SF.
Barnes is the OBVIOUS choice.
Lewis has to stay at PF where he has an advantage on most nights. Barnes does all the hustle plays and helps our rebounding while having the ability to hit the 3 ball.
Pietrus, Anderson, Redick give the second team firepower.
Lewis at SF only when we can force a mismatch there.
Bass is the odd man out but I am sure SVG will find ways to use him.
I don't think it's an obvious choice, it comes down to what Stan Van Gundy wants with the fifth man.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Barnes on most days....BUT
It all depends on matchups. If the opposing team has a dominate SF, you would much rather have Pietrus in for majority of minutes. If the team has a slow 3 and 4 who can’t guard the outside, then I would prefer to see Anderson and Lewis. On most days, I do think Barnes should be starting based on most of the reasons stated above.
JJ is capable of starting, but moving Vince to the 3 would be awful for the team. I think Bass starting would also be awful, as he is best used in a change of pace/defense role.
"I'd hate to leave right when the getting is good." -CC
I like Bass to be on the floor when Howard’s out. He and Gortat are both relatively quick big men, but Bass is bulkier (all three of them are listed at 240 pounds on Basketball Reference, but you’re talking 6’8" Bass vs. 6’11" Howard and 7’0" Gortat – Bass has a higher mass index). I feel he’s more able to physically wear guys down, which makes Dwight’s job easier when he comes back in.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
I think, out of everyone, Bass is going to see the biggest crunch in minutes with a healthy roster.
Which is a shame because he’s a starting-quality player.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
Anderson
Ever notice when Anderson scores? It always seems to be in the first half of the first quarter. He then gets benched, then later comes back in but with lesser results. I don’t know if that’s just due to the limited number of games he’s played, but I say that if he’s our top player at the start of the game, that he should be in at the start of the game.
I am the world's best basketball player! *
* Among those with no skills whatsoever

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