Comparing the 08-09 Seasons of Vince Carter and Hedo Turkoglu
Making major changes to your team when you are already very, very good appears to be the thing to do in today's NBA. The Lakers essentially swapped Trevor Ariza for Ron Artest, the Magic swapped Hedo Turkoglu for Vince Carter, and the Cavaliers added Shaquille O'Neal. Each of these teams was among the best in the league last year, and we'll see how messing with a good thing turns out.
Of course, since this is a Magic blog, I will look at Orlando's decision to let Hedo Turkoglu walk and trade for Vince Carter. I will be using a number of advanced statistics that, thankfully, I didn't have to calculate myself. There is a wealth of basketball statistics available on the Internet these days, and everything I will discuss today is publicly available. The numbers I will be using were gathered from BasketballValue.com, my own Composite Score statistics, Basketball-Reference.com, 82games.com, and a new site called Hoopdata.com.
Overall Player Rating Statistics
Let's start with a cursory glance at overall player ratings for Carter and Turkoglu. With these numbers, Turk fares better in adjusted plus-minus and Composite Score, while Carter has the upper hand in PER and Win Shares. The difference in Composite Score is the most dramatic, and that is mainly due to differences in their Defensive Composite Scores (which I will get into later). There is also a pretty substantial difference in PER, and I think that is a reflection of Carter's overall production per minute being more high volume than Turkoglu's production. The fact that Carter had more Win Shares than Turkoglu despite playing on a pretty bad team is quite impressive.
Offense Stats
According to the numbers, this is Carter's biggest advantage. In just amount any offensive metric you use, Carter looks better. He is more efficient and produces more total offense than Turk. Similarly, he had a greater impact on his team's offense in terms of plus-minus. Offensive Composite Score reflects all of these things.
Defense Stats
Here, Turkoglu strikes back. Carter looks below average in just about every category, and this supports his reputation. Turk, on the other hand, recorded numbers well above average in every category. The trickiest part about these comparisons is team context. It is something I've mentioned constantly when talking about my Composite Score numbers. Because of the way stats are tracked (at least publicly), it's very difficult to separate a player's individual contribution to his defense. How much of this is Hedo's own doing, and how much of it is due to the fact that Orlando featured a very strong all-around defense? It's hard to say, but I do think Turkoglu was probably a better defender than Carter.
Playmaking Stats
One of Turkoglu's biggest benefits to the Magic, and something I thought they may miss, was his ability to create looks for others. This was magnified in the playoffs when the Magic dominated the Cavaliers behind the creativity of Turkoglu. Of course, Carter is no slouch in this area either, and the numbers above reflect this. His Assist Rate was actually higher than Turkoglu's, and he was able to take better care of the ball in the process. Despite this, 82games.com gave Turk a better "Passing Rating," although a worse "Hands Rating." Regardless of the tiny differences on each side, I think it's safe to say that Turkoglu's playmaking abilities are no better than Carter's.
Assist Stats
These numbers, which are available at Hoopdata, show what types of shots that the two players assisted on. They are pretty similar across the board. I think it's interesting that Carter assisted on slightly more shots that were converted at the rim than Turkoglu did, despite the latter playing with one of the best (if not the best) finishers in the game in Dwight Howard. It'll be interesting to see how these numbers look after this season.
Clutch Stats
Partly because of his success in the playoffs, Hedo Turkoglu developed the reputation of being a clutch scorer and player. Carter has been a go-to guy late in the game for much of his career, so how do the two compare? Last year, Carter was actually more productive and more efficient shooting-wise than Turkoglu. Both were great from the free throw line and reasonably good playmakers, but the difference in effective field goal percentage was pretty dramatic. Carter's was above average, while Turkoglu's was well below average. Most players find it more difficult to hit their shots in crunch time when defenses tighten up, so the fact that Carter actually became more efficient with the game on the line is quite impressive.
Conclusion
Ignoring all of the other players involved (although we definitely should not understate them), did the Magic make the right move by switching from Turkoglu to Carter? VC is better offensively, and two of Turk's most famous skills, playmaking and clutch play, are performed as well or better by Carter. The only concern is defense, especially since the Magic lost Courtney Lee. However, we don't know for sure how great of a defender Turkoglu is when he isn't playing in front of Dwight Howard, so that aspect remains to be seen. All in all, considering Carter's potential to put them over the top, the other players they acquired, and the amount of money Hedo was demanding, it appears to have been the right move for Orlando.
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11 comments
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Comments
Solid, solid analysis. I’ve been saying for a while that “Vince is better than Turkoglu at everything”. Numbers back it up, except for the defensive thing, but really I think the team defense factor is important. We can look at those numbers again at the end of the year. What my eyes told me, though, is that Vince is capable of being a superior defender but he was often lazy. Turkoglu would be failed mostly by his inability to stay in front of quicker guys and the fact that he doesn’t have tremendous defensive instincts, while Carter would be failed by the fact that sometimes he just wouldn’t get after it on the defensive end. Give Vince a full season with Stan and the gang’s peer pressure and I think he’ll prove to be at least a decent defender. I’m a Raptors fan and remember how Kevin O’Neill turned him into a defensive beast for a little while. He doesn’t have the same athleticism anymore, but he also won’t be asked to do as much on the offensive end here. The Magic should be fine.
by Vic De Zen on Nov 9, 2009 9:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for sharing your insight.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
by erivera7 on Nov 9, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hate to say it but none of these numbers matter when vince is sitting on the bench with a "minor ankle injury"
by Snyde on Nov 9, 2009 11:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Turk averaged 75 games per season with the Magic
He wasn’t exactly an ironman himself.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
by The Dark on Nov 9, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts on D
For New Jersey Brook Lopez was their defensive anchor with a Drtg of 108 compared to a team Drtg of 111. Wing players rarely find themselves much below the team Drtg, and Carters 112, 1 pt above the team Drtg, is no surprise. Does this mean he stinks on D?
Orland’s Drtg last year was 101.9, their anchor, Dwight, had a Drtg of 95. Hedo? A Drtg of 104, or 2.1 pts above the team rating.
I don’t think this context shows either Hedo or Carter to be the superior defender here. What I do think if shows is that neither will have a pivotal role on defense anyway, that role belongs to Dwight.
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
by Eyriq the Red on Nov 9, 2009 12:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
When motivated, Vince can be an above-average defender.
Turkoglu, statistically-speaking, was a net positive for the Magic defensively.
By the way, Defensive Rating is a flawed metric to use to determine how good/bad a player is on defense. It’s too team-oriented and doesn’t capture much of the individual at all. Just a heads up there.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
by erivera7 on Nov 9, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My comment was geared towards dealing with the systemic nature of Drtg
'Coach, Dwight is a nice guy. Dwight don't hit anybody. But Superman will knock the crap out of you.' - D12
by Eyriq the Red on Nov 10, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, gotcha.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
by erivera7 on Nov 10, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff
I’ll be checking out Hoop Data more.
by thermodynamic on Nov 9, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great site, just debuted recently.
If you’re into the numbers, bookmark it.
I write for Third Quarter Collapse and have a Twitter account. Like us? Please vote for 3QC in the Orbbies, Orlando's Rockin' Blogs, hosted by the Orlando Sentinel. We're nominated for the best Sports and Overall blog.
"The second unit is kind of crazy because the second unit is only white guys." - Marcin Gortat
by erivera7 on Nov 9, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to see more defense from VC but he’s been improving imo. We also haven’t quite seen him enough yet offensively. The one thing I would like to see from VC that Turk did do tho all the time.. is drive to the basket alot more. Turk largley does this to get FTs (comically, many, many, many drives did miss), but he did it in slow moments of the game and keep his drive a open threat. With VC, I know he doesn’t have the athleticism
of his Raptors and early Nets days but he still has an amazing knack for hitting them and I wouldn’t mind at all seeing them simply turn into FT attempts. Driving thru a Magic PR can do wonders for opening a lane or a great assist for VC too. I’ve been very happy to see VC shooting very good tho too and seeing him play like he was against NJ leaves no doubt in my mind he’s much much better than Turk.
by derekk on Nov 9, 2009 4:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs

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