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Putting the "Vince-Carter-vs.-Hedo-Turkoglu-in-Crunch-Time" Debate to Rest

Like Bethlehem Shoals, I'm flabbergasted that NBA fans and analysts continue to debate whether or not the Orlando Magic improved by adding Vince Carter and losing Hedo Turkoglu. We've written on this topic several times, so I apologize in advance if there's redundancy here, but there are apparently more facts that need clarifying. The sooner we end this debate, the better.

Anyway, the Magic's decision to trade for Carter essentially indicated that they would let the free-agent-to-be Turkoglu pack his bags; as NetsDaily reported recently, the Magic stepped up their efforts to land Carter from New Jersey when Turkoglu rejected an informal contract offer over the previous weekend. Although technically the final swap the Magic made with the Nets was Rafer Alston, Tony Battie, and Courtney Lee for Ryan Anderson and Carter, it's fair to say Turkoglu left in that deal as well, as it made clear the Magic did not intend to re-sign him.

So yes, it's reasonably accurate to say that the Magic expect Carter to fill almost, but not all, of the roles Turkoglu held over the last two seasons, under coach Stan Van Gundy, where he became more of a playmaker and less of a spot-up shooter. (The most notable exception is inbounds passing, where Matt Barnes will take over for Hedo). Plenty of NBA writers, most recently ESPN.com's Chris Sheridan, have expressed their opinion that Carter cannot duplicate Turkoglu's crunch-time production. Turk came up big in big moments for Orlando in the last 2 seasons--I count two game-winning shots in the regular season, one in the postseason, the Game Of His Life (25 points, 5 boards, 12 assists, 91.6% eFG%) when the Magic eliminated the Boston Celtics in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Semifinals last season. High-profile heroics aside, readily available data show that Carter is the superior clutch performer.

Here, we're using 82games.com's highly esteemed definition of "clutch," which reads as follows:

4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points

To get a better idea of both players' clutch statistics, I surveyed 82games' data for the two most recent seasons; 2007/08 is available here, and 2008/09 is available here. I've presented what I believe to be the most relevant statistics in this table:

Crunch Time Per-48-minute Productivity and Shooting Percentages for Vince Carter and Hedo Turkoglu, 2007/08 and 2008/09 NBA Seasons
PlayerSeasonPtsFG%3FG%FT%AstsTOs
Carter2007/0833.844.240.9896.02.7
Turkoglu"38.240.239.4814.93.7
Carter2008/0934.350.050.0854.33.4
Turkoglu"26.735.720.0883.61.4

Indeed, the statistics illustrate Carter's higher efficiency in both seasons, as he shot better from the field and from three-point range both times, and markedly so most recently. He's also the better playmaker, with significantly more assists in both years, although his turnovers more than doubled Turkoglu's last year.

What's quite jarring about these data is just how far off Turkoglu dropped last year. His three-point accuracy in crunch time dropped in half, and his overall shooting by one-eighth. And although it's not included in the table, Turk's 38.2 points-per-48-minutes of crunch time in 2007/08 is an astounding 50.4% increase over his entire per-48-minute scoring output that year. Unsurprisingly, he did not sustain that increase last season, as his per-48-minute output increase in crunch time was a less impressive 20.4%. In fairness to him, it's still an increase.

But Carter's scoring improvement, on a percentage-increase basis? 28.5% in 2007/08, and 26.6% last year, which suggests that we can reasonably expect him to improve his scoring in crunch time by roughly one-quarter. Turk's inconsistency in that metric, by contrast, makes him far less predictable, and reliable, as a crunch-time performer.

For readers who dispute 82games' definition of clutch, who believe that only playoff performance matters, and thus maintain that Turkoglu's postseason buckets trump anything Carter's done lately, we respond: fair. After all, Carter's Nets have failed to play postseason basketball in each of the last two years--coincidentally, when Turkoglu really gained national attention--and in Carter's last playoff apperance he did not play especially well: 22.3 points, 6.8 rebounds, and 5.3 assists per game we like, but 39.6% shooting from the field and 3.2 turnovers... not so much. My counter is that Carter is, barring a catastrophic injury or combination of injuries to key Magic players, assured of a playoff chance this year. And if his recent regular-season clutch ability holds up in the postseason, the Magic are inarguably better off with him than with Turkoglu.

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Turk here; that's not what this post is about, and I actually quite like him. It's just that he is, on the whole, a less efficient, and less reliable, crunch-time performer than Carter is. The data--just a few keystrokes away on any computer with internet access--reflect that, which is why it puzzles me that some NBA scribes are hammering the notion that Turk is superior into our heads. He played well in some nationally televised games, and played poorly in many others; through the first 3 games of the Philadelphia series he shot 23.3% from the field and averaged 11 points per game. Is all that enough to trump Carter's longer track record of higher efficiency? If some benighted NBA analysts are to be believed, the answer is "yes." The facts, however, say otherwise.

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Detroit series two seasons ago

He was horrible in crunchtime during that series, nuff said.

One Freaken Second

by magic fanatic on Oct 21, 2009 9:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yea and that was by far his best statistical season to date which goes to show playoffs are a different thing. Luckily Hedo did better last playoffs.

by derekk on Oct 21, 2009 1:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Statistically, Hedo was average in 2008 and below-average in 2009 - with regards to the playoffs.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perceptions

There are two questions that have not been asked and, perhaps, can only be answered by how the Magic play:

1. How does any player on the magic roster compliment the play of Dwight Howard?
Courtney Lee did very well at this, being drafted as a potential backup to MP, when Ryan Anderson was reported as higher on the magic’s board during that draft. (Perhaps Otis already was planning for Hedo’s departure.)

2. How can the Magic take advantage of the perceived weakness and turn it into a strength by other teams that are easier to guard. The perception of the media isn’t important, but the perception by the teams they play is, to the extent that the Magic can take advantage of it.

by kjfifteen on Oct 21, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Correction

“by the other teams that they (the Magic) are easier to guard.”

by kjfifteen on Oct 21, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yea I love that fact. Really nice input, the perception of the media is proven to be useless and infact gives other teams significantly less perception of the Magic as the upcoming title team.

by derekk on Oct 21, 2009 1:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

There was debate

About Hedo being better than Carter?
Who got into grandad’s moonshine again?

by Eric9321 on Oct 21, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There's BEEN a debate, which sounds preposterous but it's occurred.

I touched on the topic back in the summer, when talking about how Vince Carter fits into the offense compared to Hedo Turkoglu. As I showed (and as Ben has shown previously), there was no comparison.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carter should eat pizza on national television.

The national media loves two things: controversy and spectacle. A good slice of cheese would put all of this naysaying to rest. A distant third is being a witness to heroics, and I’m sure Carter will have his chance to play clutch before a national television audience soon enough.

by downbeatitude on Oct 21, 2009 11:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Vince has become a distant memory to some, given the teams he played for haven't done much.

So it should be interesting to see how Carter re-enters the national spotlight after years away from it.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

interesting Point

Keep pumpin, ain't worried bout nuttin
Busters thought we was frontin, so reload and keep dumpin
Keep Sleeping on Orlando...

by BS Patrol on Oct 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BQR, you should revise your chart to say "Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time"

Otherwise, great post. There are viable counter-arguments, namely (1) does the loss of Turk deprive the team of chemistry; and (2) does the loss of Turk deprive the team of size advantages at the SF position? Commentators sometimes make these counter-arguments but often blend them in with dodgier claims— e.g., Carter’s supposed lack of health, poor shooting, etc— that call into question their entire analysis.

by gift of the magi on Oct 21, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No and no, to answer your questions.

No Turkoglu at SF? No problem, Rashard Lewis can play there.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Blah

It would help if the national media watched more than 3 Magic games a year. They always underestimate the Magic. Hedo hit big shots in the Playoffs. The Magic had no chance to go to the Finals. So clearly, Hedo is the best thing ever for the Magic… even better than Vince Carter.

Horrible Logic.

by The Stan 'Stache on Oct 21, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There will be more national games finally so we will all see.

by derekk on Oct 21, 2009 1:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

The media (and the public in general) always overrates playoff performances.

This is nothing new.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mean its pointless arguing this

Obviously Vince Carter at this age is a better player than Vince Carter. It just the media believed Orlando got to the finals with that unorthodox style of play with shooters and Hedo spreading the floor and creating matchup problems.
The thing is, until the Cleveland series they thought that was not the way to win championships and that Orlando was a mirage.
I myself thought trading Hedo for Vince wouldnt have been a bad idea when it was proposed via that Dime article in April.
That othrodox style of play worked cause of Stan and his ablitly to make adjustments (for the most part…its easy to blame him for the Finals but what of the rest of the Playoffs). So that said, I think Vince can be accimilated well into this system like Hedo was.

"My features are that of a god, its not a facade these rappers wanna be NaS"- Nasir Jones QB's Finest

Founder and only member of the Kristin Kreuk Appreciation Society, and future Husband

Still miss em: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvvgVn0gg1E

by Wasabi Steak on Oct 21, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Did I say Vince Carter at this age is better than Vince Carter? Oh crap

I mean to say Vince Carter at this age is still better than Hedo at his age.

I dont even know where……lol

"My features are that of a god, its not a facade these rappers wanna be NaS"- Nasir Jones QB's Finest

Founder and only member of the Kristin Kreuk Appreciation Society, and future Husband

Still miss em: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvvgVn0gg1E

by Wasabi Steak on Oct 21, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

People think if they say it enough it will be true.

But we all know 8 time all star is better than no time all star.

While they close their eyes and wish the Magic to fall apart, we will quietly be stacking wins.

this team is deep.

Keep pumpin, ain't worried bout nuttin
Busters thought we was frontin, so reload and keep dumpin
Keep Sleeping on Orlando...

by BS Patrol on Oct 21, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't like 82games' metric for clutch stats

You can come back from a 7 point deficit in the final 45 seconds. 5 points in 5 minutes? I think that clutch statistics should count under 10points in the final 5 min.

It's not a dunk unless your hand makes contact with the rim. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, "Superman..."

by ben_gleicher on Oct 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's not perfect, but it's something better than nothing.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's more so what Hedo did for the team, not individually.

You got to look at how Turk ran the offense and that so far VC has done that less than Turk. Turk may have been better FOR the Magic but Jameer was killing Turk’s ball handling when he was playing good and Jason will actually make a play instead of “I’m AJ waiting for VC/Turk to pick the ball up at the top of the key.” Also VC has already looked pretty close to Hedo’s impact on the Magic as his comfort level, %‘s, and assists keep rising. I think he already is a much better creater of his own shot than Hedo (we really needed someone good like that) while Hedo was inconsistent in his overall play. It’ll be interesting to see if VC can get to 4-6 assists in playmaking like Hedo but I think the Magic needed him more than Turk after those playoffs (how the Magic had scoreless stretches in so many games and setbacks upon setbacks yet made it to the Finals amazes me). Jameer and Jason will be excellent Pick and Roll type players and the chance will be there to increase their career and last season assist averages. Everyone is good shooter too which is downright scary, just need some good ball movement which Ive already seen plenty of in preseason and will get much better still.

by derekk on Oct 21, 2009 1:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Forgot Matt Barnes. He’s been conducive to good ball movement and even poaching on Hedo’s rebound and assist stats, proving to be a great all around player too. His defense could be better but I’m very impressed with Barnes so far. With MP prolly needing to take some minutes behind VC too, Barnes got the SF starting spot on lock imo. The starting unit offense has looked good.

by derekk on Oct 21, 2009 1:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Matt can potentially run pick & rolls too if he has to.

As for your point about Jameer, that’s something that gets overlooked by practically everyone – when Nelson was healthy and playing lights out, he ran the pick & roll more than Turkoglu did.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the fact that we even talk about hedo being better than carter is a shame.

only someone who dont like the magic or carter would even consiter this question.if you are a fan of basketball its not even close. hedo is the man(in vangundys system) but carter is clearly the better all around player just look to their allstar apperances.

by magicman775 on Oct 21, 2009 1:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, we shouldn't use All-Star appearances to determine who's better.

I don’t think anyone would proclaim Jamaal Magloire better than Derom Williams, right? Just look at the numbers, that’s all that needs to be done to figure out who is the superior player. Simple as that.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how about the fact hedo does not get respect from the refs either.

so when the end of the game comes carter will not have to worry if the refs will give him the call or not. i expect lots of and 1s from carter this year.

by magicman775 on Oct 21, 2009 1:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

Keep pumpin, ain't worried bout nuttin
Busters thought we was frontin, so reload and keep dumpin
Keep Sleeping on Orlando...

by BS Patrol on Oct 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carter should be able to ballhog and fall down on the way to the rim just as well

And jack bricks from the top of the circle just as well. When they go in it will be great, but with Jameer and Rashard also on the perimeter, it will be nice to see other guys taking game-deciding shots.

Get well soon DM

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 21, 2009 1:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, Vince is more efficient than Hedo so I doubt that'll occur as often.

I'm the other guy at Third Quarter Collapse, with a Twitter account.

"Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement." - Michael Corleone

by erivera7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because Hedo never did any of those things

Keep pumpin, ain't worried bout nuttin
Busters thought we was frontin, so reload and keep dumpin
Keep Sleeping on Orlando...

by BS Patrol on Oct 21, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any discussion which revolves around whether or not Hedo Turkoglu is better than Vince Carter … at anything associated with the game of basketball is simply ridiculous … and matters not one iota the statistical categories someone would like to consider, e.g. “clutch scoring”.

If you ask all 30 head coaches in the NBA today which of these two players they would prefer to have on their team … at any given point in time … the poll results would 30-0, in favour of Mr. Carter.

khandor

by khandor on Oct 21, 2009 3:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This was an awesome article. Solid work!!

Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.

by KingJafi on Oct 21, 2009 4:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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